AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Language (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Elbow Power (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21047)

Chris Li 03-25-2012 01:56 AM

Elbow Power
 
Interesting tidbit - pointed out by one of my guys.

He was looking through "Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido" (the John Stevens translation), and mentioned that he couldn't find any mention of "Elbow Power".

So I looked through the original Japanese and sure enough there was:
第四十九 臂力の養成
"49. Elbow Power Development"
The translation in "Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido":

"49. Developing Arm Power"
:confused:

Best,

Chris

gregstec 03-25-2012 07:44 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Well, I guess the elbow is part of the arm, but there is a big difference ;)

Interesting that there is no description or picture of the "Arm Power" - just a notation that it is "to be imparted by oral instruction" What does the original have to say about #49 ?

Greg

gregstec 03-25-2012 08:02 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Just noticed in Saito's edition of Budo (pages 162 and 163) he shows Morotedori kokyuho as an example of "Elbow Power" and also states there are other practices to develop elbow power besides this techniques - so, it looks like the translators of that book got it right.

Greg

sakumeikan 03-25-2012 10:17 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Dear All, \
I may well be mistaken but there is information and video material related to developing elbow power in Yoshinkan aikido .As the earlier article stated Saito Sensei also mentions /illustrates usage of elbow power in his Aikido volumes. Cheers, Joe.

sakumeikan 03-25-2012 10:19 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 306357)
Just noticed in Saito's edition of Budo (pages 162 and 163) he shows Morotedori kokyuho as an example of "Elbow Power" and also states there are other practices to develop elbow power besides this techniques - so, it looks like the translators of that book got it right.

Greg

Dear Greg, Thanks for quoting pages in Saito Sensei volume.Cant quite remember the vol no.Was it volume one?? Cheers, Joe

Chris Li 03-25-2012 10:36 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 306355)
Well, I guess the elbow is part of the arm, but there is a big difference ;)

Interesting that there is no description or picture of the "Arm Power" - just a notation that it is "to be imparted by oral instruction" What does the original have to say about #49 ?

Greg

It has the secret ;)

Actually it says the same thing :(

Best,

Chris

gregstec 03-25-2012 10:36 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 306363)
Dear Greg, Thanks for quoting pages in Saito Sensei volume.Cant quite remember the vol no.Was it volume one?? Cheers, Joe

Hi Joe, I was not quoting any of Saito's Training volumes, but Saito's edition of Ueshiba's book Budo, which was translated by Tanaka and Pranin and included the original Japanese as well as Saito's own description and pictures of the techniques, etc.

Hope that helps

Greg

DH 03-25-2012 01:27 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Elbow power comes straight from Daito ryu-though it is interesting to note how many in that art have no idea what it means either. It also has a history in the ICMA. When trained properly it is part of a foundational body skill that *defines* both arts for their power and aiki and in fact while having nothing at all to do with the elbow it is expressed there as part of a whole. It has a direct connection to sword as well.

Oddly I keep meeting teacher after teacher, shihan after shihan, who, well....uhm....probably read John Stevens work and were also white guys training under Japanese...hence, like John, have no real knowledge of these very important foundational teachings in their own arts. For that reason I am not inclined to either explain or debate people who continue to demonstrate no real ability or understanding -beyond their ability to write well and debate on the internet. Face to face, for some odd, inexplicable reason...tends to open their ears, and allow us to reach an understanding-meaning they learn some dramatic truths contained in their arts foundation, heretofore not revealed to them.

Once again, once they are taught, I know of no teacher who would ever go back to doing aikido, Daito ryu, or Koryu the way they did it before. Elbow power is extremely potent in demonstrating power and or aiki. I have not see its real depth demonstrated by any Shihan in either art and the sword work is completelty bereft of any understanding of it. On the whole what is shown is always a partial understanding demonstrated in a limited fashion. Oh well.

Thankfully, teachers around the world are now training the arts foundation again. In time Ueshiba's art will return to its former power.
Dan

sakumeikan 03-25-2012 01:36 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 306365)
Hi Joe, I was not quoting any of Saito's Training volumes, but Saito's edition of Ueshiba's book Budo, which was translated by Tanaka and Pranin and included the original Japanese as well as Saito's own description and pictures of the techniques, etc.

Hope that helps

Greg

Dear Greg,
Possible the same quote /article in both books. I have the 5 volumes of Saito Sensei ,Heart and Appearance ,Saito Sensei again/ Budo and the line drawings of waza in a early volume of O Sensei.This last one is unlike most of the later stuff.Maybe Daito Ryu based? Have not got it at my hand right now so I forget the full title-maybe Budo Renshu??
Cheers, Joe.?

DH 03-25-2012 02:58 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 306374)
Dear Greg,
Possible the same quote /article in both books. I have the 5 volumes of Saito Sensei ,Heart and Appearance ,Saito Sensei again/ Budo and the line drawings of waza in a early volume of O Sensei.This last one is unlike most of the later stuff.Maybe Daito Ryu based? Have not got it at my hand right now so I forget the full title-maybe Budo Renshu??
Cheers, Joe.?

In my opinion both Shioda's and Saitos books are meaningless *when it comes to the topic of elbow power.* I am not saying the books have no value. They are just irrelevant and have no real value for what elbow power is. They are a discussion of some rather cooperative jujutsu. Shioda did allude to some very interesting things, but then left it and delivered...nothing. Who know's why.
Dan

gregstec 03-25-2012 03:14 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 306374)
Dear Greg,
Possible the same quote /article in both books. I have the 5 volumes of Saito Sensei ,Heart and Appearance ,Saito Sensei again/ Budo and the line drawings of waza in a early volume of O Sensei.This last one is unlike most of the later stuff.Maybe Daito Ryu based? Have not got it at my hand right now so I forget the full title-maybe Budo Renshu??
Cheers, Joe.?

Hi Joe, there really is not much in the book I referenced other than Saito's use of the term "Elbow Power" instead of "Arm Power" that Stevens used in his translation for the same part of the original Budo book by Ueshiba. And as Dan already mentioned, the technique Saito used in his book is simply a jujutsu movement using the elbow as a point of contact; this is not what Ueshiba meant as elbow power nor what Dan is talking about either.

Greg

gregstec 03-25-2012 03:55 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Just a little Clarafication- morotedori kokyuho could be a good tech to practice elbow power if performed with the proper intent

Greg

HL1978 03-25-2012 09:38 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
I assume this is the same sort of thing that the Aunkai refers to as "hiji kara saki", given Akuzawa sensei's exposure to daito ryu?

I can't really explain what Akuzawa Sensei means by that term, other than translating it as "elbow on out.". All i know about the elbows is that they are always pulled downwards towards the ground and kept inwards. This along with the shoulders kind of being pulled down, seems to bypass activating the shoulders.

Chris Li 03-25-2012 09:58 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: (Post 306392)
I assume this is the same sort of thing that the Aunkai refers to as "hiji kara saki", given Akuzawa sensei's exposure to daito ryu?

I can't really explain what Akuzawa Sensei means by that term, other than translating it as "elbow on out.". All i know about the elbows is that they are always pulled downwards towards the ground and kept inwards. This along with the shoulders kind of being pulled down, seems to bypass activating the shoulders.

As I understand it, that came direct from Sagawa.

Best,

Chris

Alic 03-26-2012 01:47 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Erm... I may be wrong but... when I read the course manual for Yoshinkan Aikido, one of our basic movements, the six kihon dozas, is called elbow power.

In Japanese it is written exactly as in the original japanese: hiriki no yosei. Now, from a video of Inoue-sensei I've watch a while back, I remember him saying that the forms of hiriki was different in Aikido vs. Daito-ryu, in that Daito-ryu actually used more raw arm power than Aikido's version, which requires less effort to perform. Each has it's own advantage and disadvantages, so one isn't really better than the other, but they ultimately do the same thing: build timing, coordinated movements, and centreline power (chushin ryoku).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wm5J...6&feature=plcp

here's the video. Hopefully you more qualified folks can find out more from this.

DH 03-26-2012 10:43 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Alic Xie wrote: (Post 306398)
Erm... I may be wrong but... when I read the course manual for Yoshinkan Aikido, one of our basic movements, the six kihon dozas, is called elbow power.

In Japanese it is written exactly as in the original japanese: hiriki no yosei. Now, from a video of Inoue-sensei I've watch a while back, I remember him saying that the forms of hiriki was different in hvs. Daito-ryu, in that Daito-ryu actually used more raw arm power than Aikido's version, which requires less effort to perform. Each has it's own advantage and disadvantages, so one isn't really better than the other, but they ultimately do the same thing: build timing, coordinated movements, and centreline power (chushin ryoku).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wm5J...6&feature=plcp

here's the video. Hopefully you more qualified folks can find out more from this.

That's too bad, as it is never going to get you where you could go. This is what I mean by
"potentials" with aiki and how Kata based budo in general ruins it. It is so limited that you end up taking truly profound teachings and watch them get reduced to near useless, stylized movement. It's why the Japanese never did well on their own turf and only proceeded to lose ground when they started freestyle MMA fighting in Japan. They couldn't adapt. It's the same with IP/aiki. The really profound stuff only comes about by resistence. Unfortunately the arts that have it are all kata based.
Now you have supposedly "Expert" teachers running around and demonstrating inadequately developed body skills, while teaching in broken English with seminar attendees thinking this is deep stuff! At any point in time they could be stopped, and also could be shown a far...far.. better way to accomplish what they are shooting for. In this case I'd bet you anything he would never, on any day, go back to what he is doing in that video once he was taught the body skill behind elbow power. Oh well!
For my part I watch video after video and wonder whether they themselves ever got it, or whether they are just hiding it as it is startling obvious that...that..ain't it. In some cases you see their body disconnect and fail, but in others they are connected and move well, but their connection is not fully developed to where it could be. In either case it sure isn't helping the students is it? Thankfully, we are now helping ourselves; with better information and better teaching models.
Dan

chillzATL 03-26-2012 11:02 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 306424)
The really profound stuff only comes about by resistence. Unfortunately the arts that have it are all kata based.

That's probably why Ueshiba prefered gardening and working the earth in his later years. I enjoy aikido dojo training and the IS oriented paired practice when I can get it, but I've yet to "feel" anything from either that's on the same level as what I get from applying that way of moving to good, hard garden work.

DH 03-26-2012 11:15 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Jason Casteel wrote: (Post 306425)
That's probably why Ueshiba prefered gardening and working the earth in his later years. I enjoy aikido dojo training and the IS oriented paired practice when I can get it, but I've yet to "feel" anything from either that's on the same level as what I get from applying that way of moving to good, hard garden work.

Yard work has decent IP benefits, but spear and pole shaking is better.
I think the best stuff comes from solo and then paired training with someone who is developed themselves for a plethera of reasons. Kata is kindergarten level stuff for IP/aiki-which elbow power is an expression of- that will forever be limited due to the limitations of that venue. IME, it actually prevents serious development.
Dan

Keith Larman 03-26-2012 11:21 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Yeah, I've been experimenting with resistance bands set up all over the place. Changing angles, directions, etc. really messes with my ability to keep "things together". I'm was also surprised at how tiring it is, albeit in a weirdly different way. Then practice with my suburito. Then some kettlebell work daily, but that's physical therapy for a damaged back although I find I can do things differently and start feeling them differently. Then after a while I started to feel like the whole world can be a gigantic playground. Hanging on some stuff, pulling on others, pushing in to a door jamb feeling the connection from toes to hand, etc. I sometimes actually do feel like a kid in a toy store. With free toys. It has been fun...

I just tell my wife I'm doing modified pilates to keep my damaged lumbar spine healthy. "Riiiiight..." she says as she walks away.

Gardening just leaves me crippled with back pain. Still haven't figured out how to do much of that without paying for it later.

Oh, and forgot to add, a couple new students who are willing to let me experiment and grab/pull/hand/drag me around. They haven't been "biased" yet by too much ukemi training and they're willing to push me to failure. Love it...

Aikibu 03-26-2012 11:22 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Well...(sounding like a broken record) We have an Elbow Kata... Six basic movements with the Elbow a beginner must master to improve in rank. I know it's not along the lines of IMA...but all our techniques (Weapons and Empty Hand) focus allot on the "elbow" and "feeling it" during the execution of any movement. It seems to make a big difference. :)

William Hazen

Keith Larman 03-26-2012 11:26 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 306426)
Yard work has decent IP benefits, but spear and pole shaking is better.
I think the best stuff comes from solo and then paired training with someone who is developed themselves for a plethera of reasons. Kata is kindergarten level stuff for IP/aiki-which elbow power is an expression of- that will forever be limited due to the limitations of that venue. IME, it actually prevents serious development.
Dan

Next time you're in town we need to talk about that. I picked up a pole per your specs. I can do a bit, but I'm sure the issue here is one of form at this point so I don't spend much time at all working on it. Since it also makes my back flare up later. So next time you're in town I hope you'll have time to cover that in a little detail. I'll even bring my "Lowes Hardware Martial Arts Training Pole" ;)

The wife saw that sitting outside. "Now what the *hell* is that for?" So I told her. I'm outside beating a tree with a bokken and jo, rubber tubes here and there, me pushing on the door jambs, me having the kid randomly try to push me over (think Kato in the Pink Panther movies -- it's fun having a kid). Now that I think about my wife walks away from me a lot with that head shaking thing. :D

Alic 03-26-2012 11:31 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Erm... Dan, that's Inoue Kyoichi hanshi 10th dan. He's one of the most powerful masters of Yoshinkan, and one of the original uchi-deshi's of Shioda Gozo. He was Yoshinkan's 2nd kancho, and was the chief Aikido instructor of Tokyo Metropolitan Police. In terms of expertise, no one questioned him. Please do your research before critizing a grandmaster.

Inoue sensei helped Shioda sensei formulate the kihon doza, which was based heavily upon the basic movements as taught by O-sensei. These are the crown jewel of Yoshinkan and the foundational movements of our techniques. We practice them until they're ingrained in our reflexes, and these movements will bleed into the techniques, which contains all of the motions. Shioda kancho has once said that to improve quickly, just do all the movements 1000 times a day.

I know it looks robotic and cumbersome, but remember that this holds true for all of Yoshinkan, and yet Yoshinkan is acknowledged by the Tokyo riot police as their required martial art. I've felt both the power that comes from these movements as demonstrated by my sensei, and my own improvements as I trained with them.

I highly encourage you to try them out before saying they're useless. These movements help focus your centreline and reduce floppy movements, and just training for a month should show visible improvements to your Aikido.

My interest is in whether or not Yoshinkan's hiriki no yosei is at all similar to the one described in O-sensei's book. Since Shioda Gozo was training with O-sensei at the very beginning of Aikido, and definately learned the original elbow power development, he must've incorporated them into the hiriki no yosei of Yoshinkan.

DH 03-26-2012 11:38 AM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 306428)
Well...(sounding like a broken record) We have an Elbow Kata... Six basic movements with the Elbow a beginner must master to improve in rank. I know it's not along the lines of IMA...but all our techniques (Weapons and Empty Hand) focus allot on the "elbow" and "feeling it" during the execution of any movement. It seems to make a big difference. :)

William Hazen

Well sure. Basic Japanese models-(meaning lacking real information) if trained well will help to a degree to get the focus off the shoulder. However, the real information is part of a deeper process from internal to external that blows the lid off of conventional budo movement to the point that those same Japanese shihan couldn't touch someone who knows this well. You'd walk right through them.

It's only magnified with weapons, but I have never seen the completeness of the skill in any Japanese teachers movement. I think the Japanese Nage/uke model has severely hampered real progress.
Dan

Lorel Latorilla 03-26-2012 12:10 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Alic Xie wrote: (Post 306430)
Shioda kancho has once said that to improve quickly, just do all the movements 1000 times a day.

This is NOT the way to do it. For me this leads to sloppy, unmindful practise that creates bad habits and a sense of "wow I did the kata 1000 times! I must be becoming a master soon!"--horrible combination. The way to do it is to do obviously repeat and drill things (to ingrain the skills) but in a MINDFUL way. Of course, this all really depends on the training methodology and how well the teacher articulates the bodyskill concepts in the training methodology.

DH 03-26-2012 12:20 PM

Re: Elbow Power
 
Quote:

Alic Xie wrote: (Post 306430)
Erm... Dan, that's Inoue Kyoichi hanshi 10th dan. He's one of the most powerful masters of Yoshinkan, and one of the original uchi-deshi's of Shioda Gozo. He was Yoshinkan's 2nd kancho, and was the chief Aikido instructor of Tokyo Metropolitan Police. In terms of expertise, no one questioned him. Please do your research before critizing a grandmaster.

Inoue sensei helped Shioda sensei formulate the kihon doza, which was based heavily upon the basic movements as taught by O-sensei. These are the crown jewel of Yoshinkan and the foundational movements of our techniques. We practice them until they're ingrained in our reflexes, and these movements will bleed into the techniques, which contains all of the motions. Shioda kancho has once said that to improve quickly, just do all the movements 1000 times a day.

I know it looks robotic and cumbersome, but remember that this holds true for all of Yoshinkan, and yet Yoshinkan is acknowledged by the Tokyo riot police as their required martial art. I've felt both the power that comes from these movements as demonstrated by my sensei, and my own improvements as I trained with them.

I highly encourage you to try them out before saying they're useless. These movements help focus your centreline and reduce floppy movements, and just training for a month should show visible improvements to your Aikido.

My interest is in whether or not Yoshinkan's hiriki no yosei is at all similar to the one described in O-sensei's book. Since Shioda Gozo was training with O-sensei at the very beginning of Aikido, and definately learned the original elbow power development, he must've incorporated them into the hiriki no yosei of Yoshinkan.

I know -exactly- who he is. and what those are. I see flaws and always have seen flaws in them. In fact I can point them out and correct them and have done so and shown a better way. His movement lacks the conditioning of both Ueshiba and Shioda needed to do even the limited expression in that kata. There are others here beside me who see it as well.
I am not looking at how robotic in nature. That's kata, and that's okay. There are tell tale indicators for things that are not there and failures in the movements.
Why can't you see those?
Quote:

In terms of expertise, no one questioned him. Please do your research before critizing a grandmaster.
I accept your standard. Do your own.
Let me ask you:
1. When do you "trust" in others?
2. How do you trust in others?
3. How do you vet the opinions of others?
4. Rank?
5. Actual skill?
6. Reputation with 40 years of cooperating uke in kata demonstrations?
7. Or reputation from standing in rooms with adversarial people bent on taking you apart and never succeeding?
8. How about fighting....with aiki?

There will always be teachers who critique other methods-that is NOT criticizing the teacher. Why do you think there are so many methods of aikido? There is NO disrespect on my end. NONE.
What you are really saying is who am I to critique him.
I am routinely cautioned not to tell the truth, to either avoid or lie about what I see, and down play what I have done and can do. Why? Because people are sensitive to the truth about their teachers and the arts. And pick any art, it isn't just about Aikido.
What does that say?
The truth is there are men who can literally take apart some of the most famous Japanese bad-asses out there-by using the aiki from Ueshiba's aikido. If that shocks you I can only say that when discussing deeper training, true power and aiki... you might be in for some serious awakenings long past any one particular master class teacher or any one art.

For a positive spin...look a it this way.
What if the aiki...in Ueshiba's aikido could actually be world class powerful and take apart most methods in traditional budo and you could learn it in a relatively short time frame?
What if...the best method to learn was from.......Westerners and not the Japanese?
Dan


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:51 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.