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Old 01-18-2012, 06:37 AM   #26
tlk52
Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
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Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

"lot of people are intimidated by the ukemi or dont know how to take ukemi for this technique."

I think that the problem is simply lack of practice, and therefor fear of the ukemi.

one thing that I've found effective is to have students spend more time loading up (2-3X loading and then 1X throw) that way uke can get used to it, nage can work on position, and there's less wear on the body.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:44 AM   #27
jonreading
 
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Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

I think you have some level of flexibility in the width of feet in a throw. Judo, for example, has many [successful] throws from a variety of foot positions; pillared and wide stances being just two of the positions. I think, more importantly, a successful throw involves the position of the feet to support the partner over the fulcrum of the throw.

My current observation here is that aikido-style koshi nage is not the same as judo-style koshi waza (o toshi). As best as I can tell, aikido koshi nage places great emphasis on over-extending uke and positioning the hip on the lea side of the fulcrum of balance. The judo-style o toshi assimilates uke onto nage and rotates uke over the fulcrum. (Although I have played with some great judo people who do their fair share of over-extending tori).

For koshi nage, I usually teach hips perpendicular to uke and feet in a pillar position, with feet comfortably close to support uke, toes slightly wider then heels and the dominant leg around which rotates uke is [more] heel planted. This is similar to how Fred described his positioning (I think). However, in fairness, when I play with judo people and try this they usually laugh at me and in some derogatory manner ask why I am sticking out my bootie.

No offense to anyone, but I feel aikido koshi nages allow uke to fall; judo koshi waza propels uke. I think this is because the judo applies more rotation in the hips during the throw while aikido kinda throws the hip into uke as an obstacle. I also think judo throws place far more emphasis on "fitting", whereas aikido people are less precise (possibly because of compliant partners). Aikido and judo also have two completely different uke responses. I bring this up since I think we need to distinguish between aikido and judo in describing our preferences.

Last edited by jonreading : 01-18-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:22 PM   #28
pezalinski
 
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Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
No offense to anyone, but I feel aikido koshi nages allow uke to fall; judo koshi waza propels uke. I think this is because the judo applies more rotation in the hips during the throw while aikido kinda throws the hip into uke as an obstacle. I also think judo throws place far more emphasis on "fitting", whereas aikido people are less precise (possibly because of compliant partners). Aikido and judo also have two completely different uke responses. I bring this up since I think we need to distinguish between aikido and judo in describing our preferences.
I think Jon has a limited experience of Aikido's koshi nage. There's no practical difference between the Judo and the Aikido version of it when it's executed properly. I've experienced the propulsion he refers to in both arts -- and I think it comes easier to Judoka because they practice it as a core of their art.

Aikido's koshinage has always been a challenge, both for uke and for nage, because of the levels of commitment, confidence and height involved. Most of the koshinage 'practice forms' I have experienced are designed to get uke and nage in proper alignment and give both a safe starting point to experience the technique and it's results from. This requires the three P's (practice, practice, practice) and a heightened awareness of risks. No one wants to injure themselves or their partner by improper training. Getting to the 'art' of it from means finding a safe way to practice the 'static' forms, so the open and closed stance variations both have their places -- but don't confuse them with a more dynamic experience of koshinage.

Koshinage is a dynamic and beautiful redirection of energy that doesn't really involve "loading up" or "removing a supporting leg," because the transition from attack to throw doesn't have a real stopping point in the middle where one should have to support uke's weight, and does often involve propelling the uke further upward and outward as a result of the throw. The most effective applications of the technique, as witnessed when it appears in randori, happen in a manner that is not easy to duplicate in a static form, simply because neither partner ceases to be moving -- nage is not "planted" nor is uke "just holding on". When we practice to learn koshinage, we need to "stop time" to ensure both partners are in approximately the proper alignment during the execution of the technique -- which is why we "load up", I think -- but this is not a practical application of the martial art, just a training tool to acquire the skills to execute it and take the resulting ukemi.

Train safely, and don't confuse the 'training' with the 'art' of the technique, is I guess what I'm trying to say.


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Old 01-22-2012, 04:01 PM   #29
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

Quote:
Peter Zalinski wrote:
When we practice to learn koshinage, we need to "stop time" to ensure both partners are in approximately the proper alignment during the execution of the technique -- which is why we "load up", I think -- but this is not a practical application of the martial art, just a training tool to acquire the skills to execute it and take the resulting ukemi.
But earlier, you wrote:
Quote:
I think Jon has a limited experience of Aikido's koshi nage. There's no practical difference between the Judo and the Aikido version of it when it's executed properly. I've experienced the propulsion he refers to in both arts -- and I think it comes easier to Judoka because they practice it as a core of their art.
And this is the crux of the difference. The judoka does NOT need to stop time, does NOT need any agreement from uke. Through proper kuzushi, uke is placed/led into a position that koshi-nage (properly "koshi-kake(ru)" - in other words, s/he trips over the hips) occurs. Tori is able to do this because they are grabbing/wrapping the keikko-gi or the hips (depending on the koshi variant).

The difficulty with the classic aikido koshinage is that it requires you to function at a "separation ma-ai" - and IF uke is over-balanced, tori steps in, with the perpendicular hips and uke trips. If one has not truly impeccable kuzushi, (or total control of uke - re aiki), uke will be able to escape, because it takes so much time to enter from arms-length ma-ai, that uke, even unbalanced, can recover.

If you look at the roots of aikido koshinage (see film clip of YSR earlier), you'll see a particular kuzushi is set up by smashing the enemy backwards, and they lunge forward in response. I think about now, I can hear O-sensei saying, "in aiki, we do it this way." Without some kind of total body control of the other - from kuzushi to it's more subtle manifestation, aiki or (kokyu, if you prefer) - the aikido koshinage will unfortunately be relegated to a "training tool" for ukemi, as you put it, rather than a real practical method - as judo's technique is. Let me quote, again, what I linked to earlier:

Quote:
The founder once said jokingly that there were no better techniques than koshinage (hip throws) and that he never got tired even if he practiced them from morning to night. Kokyunage and koshinage, which were once regarded as basic aikido techniques, are now being taught instead as applied or advanced techniques. I think it is unfortunate that this may have become necessary in order to preserve the techniques of aikido.
That last statement is awful intriguing - that largely eliminating what Osensei thought was a) his favorite b) basic, was "necessary in order to preserve the techniques of aikido." Oh yes, who was it who said, "that's not my aikido." In addition to the flogged to near death subject of aiki, could Osensei have been also lamenting a weak-hipped, unstable-based type of practice, because of the de-emphasis of koshi techniques? Hmmmm

Best
Ellis Amdur

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Old 01-22-2012, 07:05 PM   #30
hughrbeyer
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Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

Quote:
Peter Zalinski wrote: View Post
Koshinage is a dynamic and beautiful redirection of energy that doesn't really involve "loading up" or "removing a supporting leg," because the transition from attack to throw doesn't have a real stopping point in the middle where one should have to support uke's weight...
The best advice I ever got on koshinage was to think of it as moving through uke rather than loading and throwing. I only nail it once in maybe 20 throws but when I do it's smooooth.
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Old 01-23-2012, 11:29 AM   #31
DH
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Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

Hip throws are probably best not looked at as a static thing. There are many variants to hip throws that are hip under hoists, step across and pull, step in and launch hip sideways to cut out the legs...on and on. These can be done by stepping in and joining the feet, cross stepping in to fit and then cutting the hip, and or lifting/sweeping the hip, statically or in a process of continued and sudden positional changes. Not the least of which is what can be happening "top side" that sometimes makes the decisions for you.
Dan
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:37 PM   #32
roadtoad
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Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together

Most of those are effective against arm grabs. But they're all really Judo. Even Yamada is just dragging uke over his back. Saito's knees were so bad by the time he was 35 that he could throw anyone, but he also drug uke over his back.
The only one that actually had a Koshi that was an actual Koshi against an actual Karate front punch, was Isoyama, but, since Karate uses right hand forward, right foot forward, it is the opposite of the typical western boxing cross, which is right hand forward, left foot forward.
I have invented a throw that qualifies as a Koshi, against a punch, but it could be called a sort of variation of Harai-nage., after the punch, that is, because judo doesn't use punches.
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