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-   -   Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20707)

Mario Tobias 01-13-2012 04:15 AM

Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Hi,

For koshi nage, we are being taught to bring our feet together when doing the technique. However, Saito sensei is doing his with an open stance.

It looks easier with Saito sensei's version since when you are face to face with your uke, you just step straight toward him and do a 90 degree hantai tenkan. And with an open stance, your back is automatically bent before throwing so its more economical. No need to bend down after positioning yourself to uke unlike with a feet together stance which is an extra process.

Koshi nage is one of the techniques which you either love or hate.

sorokod 01-13-2012 04:57 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
This should of interest: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14306

grondahl 01-13-2012 04:59 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Coming from the "open stance" linage, I find feet together superior when your dealing with a short (or short legged) uke. Much easier to get down really low.

Demetrio Cereijo 01-13-2012 05:17 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
As a short nage myself: open enough for keeping balance but close enough to avoid uke falling on my knee.

PaulieWalnuts 01-13-2012 06:20 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
It depends on the form, 2 baisc forms of koshi nage are head under or hips under (as taught in Iwama) with head under there is a wider position of the feet, here is an example of demonstrating where to align the body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-9cNnd3bFU

for the hips under its usually a smaller space between the feet as in this version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODzpi_rLM7k ( although this teacher is very tall so his feet are naturally wider anyway for his balance)

kewms 01-13-2012 10:22 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 300720)
As a short nage myself: open enough for keeping balance but close enough to avoid uke falling on my knee.

This is my experience as well.

When done slowly, a wider stance does make it easier to keep your balance. When done fast, however, the risk of uke falling on the knee seems to me to be much more of a concern.

If you can't keep your balance with a stance narrow enough to be safe, the solution is probably to practice until you can, not to adjust your stance to compensate.

Katherine

Russ Q 01-13-2012 10:58 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Suganuma sensei shows basic/kihon koshinage with a wide stance but, as others have mentioned, once you start moving quickly then I tend to move toward a closed/feet together stance.

Cheers,

Russ

Fred Little 01-13-2012 11:16 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 300744)
This is my experience as well.

When done slowly, a wider stance does make it easier to keep your balance. When done fast, however, the risk of uke falling on the knee seems to me to be much more of a concern.

If you can't keep your balance with a stance narrow enough to be safe, the solution is probably to practice until you can, not to adjust your stance to compensate.

Katherine

The training I got at the original Bond Street Dojo seems to have been significantly different than either alternative mentioned thus far in this thread.

1. Feet together in a "T" with the heel of the "non-load" foot at the arch of the "load" foot beneath the hip over which uke will rotate.

2. Always remove the bearing leg and hip while releasing uke, precisely to avoid the risk of uke falling on the knee.

In part, this reflects the significant influence Kuroiwa Sensei had on training at BSD; senior instructor Christine Jordan was relentless and adamant about the removal of the leg as a safety measure and I've followed her lead in that. A number of years back, I had one particularly otherwise exemplary student who didn't listen to my admonitions on this point for a period of six months. Then he damaged his knee, needed ACL surgery, and effectively ended his training. Since then, I've become more insistent about the need to remove the leg.

My tuppence.

FL

kewms 01-13-2012 11:36 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Fred Little wrote: (Post 300753)
2. Always remove the bearing leg and hip while releasing uke, precisely to avoid the risk of uke falling on the knee.

I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. How do you move a leg that is supporting your weight and uke's?

Katherine

dalen7 01-13-2012 11:36 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
I was taught both open stance and feet together method.
[Hated the latter, but that reflects weakness in my own structure I need to work on]

As for Koshinage, I dont mind throwing - but I like my feet on the ground... regardless.
[Perhaps I will learn to love 'air'] ;)

- dAlen

Chris Li 01-13-2012 11:53 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Here's an interesting quote from an interview with Yasuo Kobayashi (the original interview was Japanese only). It does relate to Fred Little's post a bit:

Quote:

While we're discussing this, as far as I know koshi-nage was not practiced much in the beginning. After Nishio and Kuroiwa researched it independently other instructors began to steal their techniques.
Best,

Chris

dalen7 01-13-2012 12:35 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 300759)
Here's an interesting quote from an interview with Yasuo Kobayashi (the original interview was Japanese only). It does relate to Fred Little's post a bit:

"While we're discussing this, as far as I know koshi-nage was not practiced much in the beginning. After Nishio and Kuroiwa researched it independently other instructors began to steal their techniques."

Best,

Chris

Heard that from someone else as well.

To the best of my understanding, Koshinage is more of a Judo type move.
[At least it appears that way from my limited knowledge of Judo... which really is zilch]

But, I am glad, in a way, that it exist within Aikido, as its this type of movement which shows the natural extension of Judo in relation to Aikido - [and though not this technique, you can see where BJJ fits in as well once you start playing with grappling]

Think more of it in terms of distance as to what is effective, I heard someone say once... and it seems to hold up. [All in all, its all jiu-jitsu - just got split up] ;)

- dAlen

Ellis Amdur 01-13-2012 12:47 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
From an interview with Saito Morihiro

Quote:

The founder once said jokingly that there were no better techniques than koshinage (hip throws) and that he never got tired even if he practiced them from morning to night. Kokyunage and koshinage, which were once regarded as basic aikido techniques, are now being taught instead as applied or advanced techniques. I think it is unfortunate that this may have become necessary in order to preserve the techniques of aikido.
To the best of my recollection, Nishio Sensei usually executed "koshinage" that were adaptations of judo (much like ogoshi). Kuroiwa Sensei created a unique technique that was actually an adaptation of a wrestling single leg.

John Driscoll has made an almost impeccable case that koshinage, in the "classic" aikido manner, where nage's hips are perpendicular to uke's (rather than judo's parallel) is the single, solitary aikido technique that is not derived from Daito-ryu; rather, from Yagyu Shingan-ryu. This article is kind of buried on the Aikiweb site - it deserves to be highlighted, for it's meticulous consideration of a single technique (John is a high ranking judoka as well as aikidoka, by the way). It also is a prime illustration of how a study of history can actually illuminate proper practice.
Ellis Amdur

Chris Li 01-13-2012 12:56 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 300762)
From an interview with Saito Morihiro

To the best of my recollection, Nishio Sensei usually executed "koshinage" that were adaptations of judo (much like ogoshi). Kuroiwa Sensei created a unique technique that was actually an adaptation of a wrestling single leg.

John Driscoll has made an almost impeccable case that koshinage, in the "classic" aikido manner, where nage's hips are perpendicular to uke's (rather than judo's parallel) is the single, solitary aikido technique that is not derived from Daito-ryu; rather, from Yagyu Shingan-ryu. This article is kind of buried on the Aikiweb site - it deserves to be highlighted, for it's meticulous consideration of a single technique (John is a high ranking judoka as well as aikidoka, by the way). It also is a prime illustration of how a study of history can actually illuminate proper practice.
Ellis Amdur

A claim that I heard once from Saito was that koshi-nage was originally practiced with the nage standing upright - koshi garuma rather than what we think of as koshi nage today. The change (supposedly) was made because the ukemi for koshi garuma was too difficult for most people.

Muddying the water...Anyway, it does make the perpendicular hips seem logical, if you think of it in that context.

Best,

Chris

Fred Little 01-13-2012 02:15 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 300755)
I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. How do you move a leg that is supporting your weight and uke's?

Katherine

Understandable question. The thing is, what you're really doing is transferring everything (except uke) to the other leg so you can both move your own leg and stop supporting uke. This inevitably results in uke falling. :D

Best,

FL

Allen Beebe 01-13-2012 04:12 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 300763)
A claim that I heard once from Saito was that koshi-nage was originally practiced with the nage standing upright - koshi garuma rather than what we think of as koshi nage today. The change (supposedly) was made because the ukemi for koshi garuma was too difficult for most people.

Muddying the water...Anyway, it does make the perpendicular hips seem logical, if you think of it in that context.

Best,

Chris

Chris,

FWIW, serendipitously I was watching one of the Shirata Vids that Stan just put up (I've had them since the eighties, but was asked, and agreed, to not publicly distribute them . . . so I didn't.) And it shows sensei doing a series of koshi nage with a bit of a scoop (hardly any compared to most). But I was kind of frustrated, because I've said to my students for years that how he did koshi nage was without any perceptible scoop, much less going perpendicular, and still you would become entirely airborne. There was no perceptible wind up and no perceptible force used, not even the perception of your weight being levered. One moment you would be standing and then you would be landing and there was nothing "in between." Consequently you couldn't resist, there was nothing to resist, you couldn't "prepare" or "anticipate" because there was nothing to prepare for or anticipate. And the landing could be "rude" because the only thing seemingly slowing your fall was the ground, in other words there was no friction or drag.

For me the problem was, due to the nature of the throw, there was little (visual path, sensational path, etc) I could "trace back" to figure out just how he was doing it. So it was "invisible" to stop, and invisible to reproduce.

So I was left "teaching" koshi nage to my students saying, "This isn't it! Then I would show them the outer form and describe what I just described above, and say something like, "Now help me figure out how it works."

Lately the guys have reproduced it a handful of times (I'm probably the worst of the bunch of us.) which is both exciting and maddening (because our performance is spotty at best). Our conclusion? It has everything to do with what we do inside ourselves and virtually nothing to do with timing, positioning, leverage, (Yes, leverage!) or just about any other "normal" things one would look to to explain or solve the puzzle.

The biggest obstacle towards application in antagonistic practice is ourselves. We get excited, or scared, and start "doing stuff" and, POOF! game over. We've gotten better about "policing" our selves though. So practice is productive.

Anyway, I thought since you shared what Saito sensei said, I'd throw this out there FWIW.

Allen

Ernesto Lemke 01-13-2012 04:46 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
WVM!
(Worth Very Much!)

Rupert Atkinson 01-14-2012 01:45 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Seems to me that if there are two ways to do things, you had best learn both. When I hear the we do it this way and they do it that way discussions, I just laugh. And guess what, I'd say there are more than two ways to do koshinage, or in fact, any technique.

Mario Tobias 01-14-2012 03:25 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Rupert Atkinson wrote: (Post 300808)
Seems to me that if there are two ways to do things, you had best learn both. When I hear the we do it this way and they do it that way discussions, I just laugh. And guess what, I'd say there are more than two ways to do koshinage, or in fact, any technique.

I just watched koshi waza videos from Kyuzo Mifune who they called God of Judo. Seems he does koshi techniques with one foot!

Ellis Amdur 01-14-2012 09:35 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Mario - you need to get out a little more :) That's just a harai-goshi - "reaping hip," a classic judo throw - any schoolboy learns that. Judo has any number of different kinds of hip throws.
Ellis Amdur

Mario Tobias 01-14-2012 12:33 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 300815)
Mario - you need to get out a little more :) That's just a harai-goshi - "reaping hip," a classic judo throw - any schoolboy learns that. Judo has any number of different kinds of hip throws.
Ellis Amdur

sorry I do not have good knowledge of judo. but there were about 20 variations I saw in the clip not relying too much on on stance but on timing and position.

Fred Little 01-14-2012 05:31 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
Quote:

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: (Post 300755)
I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. How do you move a leg that is supporting your weight and uke's?

Katherine

This clip doesn't show the "T" position of the feet which he emphasized as part of a solo-training drill, in which you
a) stand with your back flat to the wall, heels together.

b) bring your right heel to your left instep

c) lower yourself, right hip lower than the left, keeping your back flat to the wall

d) repeat a

e) bring your left heel to your right instep

f) lower yourself, left hip lower than the right, keeping your back flat to the wall

g) repeat until you've got it
The footwork in the clip is much looser. But he was insistent about the form of the solo practice. But what the clip does show is how someone moves a leg that was serving as support for him and his uke:

Hope this is more helpful.

FL

niall 01-14-2012 10:51 PM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
I wrote a blog post comparing aikido koshinage and judo koshi waza a while ago. Some of the comments and links are interesting. In the article I mentioned hearing Nishio Sensei explain how he personally introduced judo-style koshinage into aikido. I got the impression he had been asked to. I don't do koshinage with feet together or in a T. I do it with feet in a figure 11. The same as O Sensei, Arikawa Sensei, Nishio Sensei, Sugano Sensei, Shimizu Sensei...

koshinage koshi waza hip throw

Mario Tobias 01-15-2012 12:06 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
It was a good blog.

True. The technique fails most of the time because a lot of people are intimidated by the ukemi or dont know how to take ukemi for this technique. For the people who are not good with top ukemi, they mostly panic when they sense they are being loaded and try to slide down nages back and do forward rolls even before the throw trying to avoid top ukemi. That's why its difficult to practice this. You need uke who know how to take proper ukemi.

tlk52 01-18-2012 06:32 AM

Re: Koshi Nage - Open Stance or Feet Together
 
at the NY Aikikai seminar in Dec 2011 we spent most of one class on these 2 koshi's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfxlquWR1Gc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMvCPQ1RPQ4

best


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