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Old 01-01-2012, 10:59 PM   #26
graham christian
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
Agreed that the term is misleading, but that's what the BJJ people call it.
Nonetheless a good question Conrad. Personally I have used it in training more from the view of how to 'get out' of one rather than how to do one.

To do one would be as I described above but would enter a specific part of Aikido as far as I am concerned and that would be the area of pins. Now as far as I know there is no such 'formal' pin yet I see no reason that it couldn't be used in such a way but would take some expertise to do as such.

I would envision it to be like a headlock which is inescapable and immobilizing yet based on the principles of Aikido.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll get much other food for thought here.

Happy hunting. G.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:42 AM   #27
lbb
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

I think I've been using the terminology incorrectly, or at least ambiguously, but it seems I'm not alone -- every definition I can find of the terms "choke" and "strangle" says that they are used both for compression of the carotid or jugular, and blocking of the airway. I think, however, that my answer is the same regardless of which you're talking about. One is fast, the other is slow, both are potentially deadly. If you interrupt the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain by means swift or slow, you're messing with someone's life. Unless you like the thought of filling out a lot of forms, explaining yourself to someone's next of kin, and spending a lot of time in court, you'd better not play games like this.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:28 PM   #28
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
To do one would be as I described above but would enter a specific part of Aikido as far as I am concerned and that would be the area of pins. Now as far as I know there is no such 'formal' pin ...
As I tried to say before, our kihon waza of tanto dori / jo dori / tachi dori irimi nage ends with tori immobilizing uke by applying a choke. It is called "choke" because it is about interrupting uke's possibility to breathe. It is endet when uke taps out.
I wouldn't call this a pin? But it's clearly a form of katame waza just like the finalization of shiho nage or kote gaeshi can be.

Also there is a form of tachi waza irimi nage where uke is not thrown but choked, tori standing behind him. It can be applied as headlock, but also as choke. We do this very seldom. Here also: It is endet when uke taps out.

In both cases I don't know whether to call it 'formal'? It simply "exists".
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:14 PM   #29
Fred Little
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think I've been using the terminology incorrectly, or at least ambiguously, but it seems I'm not alone -- every definition I can find of the terms "choke" and "strangle" says that they are used both for compression of the carotid or jugular, and blocking of the airway. I think, however, that my answer is the same regardless of which you're talking about. One is fast, the other is slow, both are potentially deadly. If you interrupt the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain by means swift or slow, you're messing with someone's life. Unless you like the thought of filling out a lot of forms, explaining yourself to someone's next of kin, and spending a lot of time in court, you'd better not play games like this.
My working definition is that a choke compresses the airway, a strangle compresses blood vessels, if applied in complete accordance with the definition. But perfection is elusive, and a badly applied (but comparatively safe) strangle can slide into a badly applied (and comparatively risky) choke, especially with a resistant subject and an adrenalized individual applying the strangle.

As for speed of effect, the difference between fast and slow lies primarily in the skill level of the individual applying the technique. There are some individuals who can not only control how fast the subject passes out, but how much or how little the subject fouls himself.

The effect of a strangle, which was long ascribed to interrupting the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain, is now more generally believed to be an autonomic response to signals from baroreceptors in the neck, an explanation which accounts for fast strangles in a way the lack of oxygen theory doesn't.

All that said, it's a good idea to have someone on hand who knows basic resuscitation techniques if that's what you're practicing.

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Old 01-02-2012, 01:27 PM   #30
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Nonetheless a good question Conrad. Personally I have used it in training more from the view of how to 'get out' of one rather than how to do one.
If shimewaza is applied properly, the more you struggle or "try to get out of it" the more effective it is. If you can get out of it, it hasn't reached kime yet. Skillful application causes the arms/hands to go away from the core of the body and panic sets in almost instantly. As Fred Little says, voiding and soiling one's trousers is likely as the affect deepens. It doesn't take very long when done properly. It isn't really about "choking"...

It's too bad we lost much of this discussion when the server went down.

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:58 PM   #31
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?
Have you looked for taser related deaths?

Learn to choke properly. The risk of causing serious harm or death by choking is lower than in nage waza.

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Old 01-02-2012, 04:44 PM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Again, Chokes can be practiced safely. Two types as has already been discussed. Airway and Blood. Airway can be very dangerous if you crush the windpipe, you can also cause it to go into spasms too. So these are not adviseable to practice. Also they are harder to do and do not cause the immediacy you are looking for in a choke. Blood chokes in which you reduce blood flow to the brain are more effective and relatively safe. Note I said reduced blood flow to brain, not stopping it. In reality you only cut off enough to cause them to pass out. It doesn't take much and it doesn't take long.

I practice them all the time with no ill effects whatsoever.

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Old 01-02-2012, 04:46 PM   #33
Michael Hackett
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

My previous post disappeared in the ether.......police agents are still taught "chokes", with the word "choke" being completely misleading. There have been two basic choke techniques taught over the years, the bar arm choke and the carotid restraint, with the bar arm choke largely being abandoned by most agencies. The bar arm choke relied on cutting off the airway with the forearm across the front of the neck. It took a long time and there was (and is) a great danger of crushing the throat organs and killing the subject. The carotid restraint (Rear Naked Choke to BJJ folks) is applied to the sides of the neck and reduces blood flow to the brain. It works quickly and seldom results in lasting injury. The carotid restraint can cause injury or death if it is applied too forcefully or kept on too long. Overall it is a relatively safe and effective technique when applied reasonably - and that can be said about most defensive tactics techniques. Use of the baton, chemical agents and electric control devices are usually safe and effective when used by a reasonable officer in reasonable circumstances as well, but they can also be abused.

As for the TASER ecd, there hasn't been any credible and objective evidence that it has caused death. There have been numerous cases where the local medical examiner has opined that the cause of death was related to the deployment of the TASER, but as far as I know, in each of those cases the individual died after deployment of the TASER and the ME concluded that since the device was used and the person died, therefore the device caused the death. That is the classic issue of confusing correlation and cause. The research done by folks such as Dr. Ted Fox at UC San Diego shows pretty clearly that the ecd devices are non-lethal. There have been deaths related to the ecd in which the individual lost control of his body and suffered fatal head injuries from falling however. All of the peer-reviewed literature I've read shows these TASER related deaths to be consistent with excited delirium. And no, I don't work for TASER International, never have, don't own stock in the company and have never corresponded with anyone associated with the firm. For those interested, I can refer you to some of the literature and you can form your own opinions.

Michael
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:42 PM   #34
graham christian
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
As I tried to say before, our kihon waza of tanto dori / jo dori / tachi dori irimi nage ends with tori immobilizing uke by applying a choke. It is called "choke" because it is about interrupting uke's possibility to breathe. It is endet when uke taps out.
I wouldn't call this a pin? But it's clearly a form of katame waza just like the finalization of shiho nage or kote gaeshi can be.

Also there is a form of tachi waza irimi nage where uke is not thrown but choked, tori standing behind him. It can be applied as headlock, but also as choke. We do this very seldom. Here also: It is endet when uke taps out.

In both cases I don't know whether to call it 'formal'? It simply "exists".
Interesting. I suppose it depends on your purpose really. All the above rely on airway blocking or even blood supply blocking thus I can say I don't teach or put that into practice as I consider it unnecessary.

I have on the other hand taught similar without the need to restrict any blood or air flow.

Thus I leave it to judo or other forms of Aikibudo or Aikido to practice in that way.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:59 PM   #35
lbb
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Again, Chokes can be practiced safely. Two types as has already been discussed. Airway and Blood. Airway can be very dangerous if you crush the windpipe, you can also cause it to go into spasms too. So these are not adviseable to practice. Also they are harder to do and do not cause the immediacy you are looking for in a choke. Blood chokes in which you reduce blood flow to the brain are more effective and relatively safe. Note I said reduced blood flow to brain, not stopping it. In reality you only cut off enough to cause them to pass out. It doesn't take much and it doesn't take long.

I practice them all the time with no ill effects whatsoever.
Kevin, what makes your practice "relatively safe"? How do you control the degree to which you reduce the flow of blood to the brain? How do you know that it's "enough" to cause them to pass out and no more? And how does someone learn such things, such that they can practice "safely"? Clearly trial and error is not the way.
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Old 01-02-2012, 07:17 PM   #36
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

When uke feels like they are being choked at our dojo, they slap out. Nage releases immediately. We never practice to the point of a brown out or a pass out.

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Old 01-02-2012, 07:17 PM   #37
David Orange
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
... Blood chokes in which you reduce blood flow to the brain are more effective and relatively safe. Note I said reduced blood flow to brain, not stopping it. In reality you only cut off enough to cause them to pass out. It doesn't take much and it doesn't take long.

I practice them all the time with no ill effects whatsoever.
The way this was explained to me (by an olympic judo coach) is that we're not really cutting off the blood flow, but sort of squeezing it up into the head such that it increases the pressure on the brain, which causes blackout.

I used to do them all the time, in both roles. As long as the partner knows how to choke safely (within the tolerances for judo), you can do these things over and over with no harm.

Two caveats for anyone trying this (which I'm sure Kevin knows better than I): the partner must know how to choke without causing damage, so don't try this with just anyone or they can crush your windpipe for you; second, you shouldn't knock your partner all the way out. They should tap at the time when they can see that your choke is becoming effective and they can't escape --just before they are losing consciousness.

And one more: if you get knocked out too many times, it can cause brain damage. So don't let your partner put you out all the way. If they do, don't practice with them again.

In short, don't try this without serious instruction from someone who really knows. Get a good judo teacher to show you how it works.

Happy New Year!

David

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Old 01-02-2012, 07:22 PM   #38
David Orange
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Kevin, what makes your practice "relatively safe"? How do you control the degree to which you reduce the flow of blood to the brain? How do you know that it's "enough" to cause them to pass out and no more? And how does someone learn such things, such that they can practice "safely"? Clearly trial and error is not the way.
These things are well known by long-time grapplers. There are safe and dangerous ways to choke someone and when you know some of them pretty well, you can tell when it's "enough". You don't even have to cause them to pass out in practice. On the street...well...you wouldn't be doing it if it were not an emergency, I would assume...But it's just like anything else. How much is "enough" shiho nage or ikkyu? When you've trained enough in it, you get the feel for it.

The way to learn is to get with a good judo or jujutsu teacher and let them show you under controlled and guided circumstances.

Otherwise, choking can be very dangerous. Make sure the person who's choking you knows what they are doing or they will certainly injure your throat before you can blink--even and untrained person.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:42 AM   #39
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
These things are well known by long-time grapplers. There are safe and dangerous ways to choke someone and when you know some of them pretty well, you can tell when it's "enough". You don't even have to cause them to pass out in practice.
What prompted the original question from me was watching a BJJ grading that my friend was taking. To them, applying a choke and tapping out is not a big deal. It's no more scary or stressful than our nikkyo pin. They always tap and the person applying the move always releases immediately.

After the tests were over, the teacher doing the testing awarded the new belts and ceremonially choked/strangled each person with their new belt while they were standing up. It looked a bit freaky, but they were all explicitly instructed to tap when they started to feel it. Some of the guys let it go a tiny bit too long before tapping - they had to shake themselves awake a little bit afterwards.

It looked pretty safe and effective the way they were practicing it.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:01 AM   #40
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Who doesn't practice chokes???? In Tomiki we practice, and I teach, chokes all the time. The last count I took is that I still have all my students so none have died from being choked. Maybe Judo shouldn't have chokes if they're so dangerous. Chokes are a great equalizer. If someone attacks you and you get a choke on him, he'll panic, forget about the attack and try to breathe. If there are more than 1 people, you can use him as a shield or drop him to the ground and go after the next attacker. If you are so scared of chokes, then either you haven't been properly taught or have never experienced a well taught choke where there is no damage to anyone.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:19 AM   #41
Keith Larman
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Looks like some posts I put up vanished in the RAID crash. So fwiw I'll try to put some different posts together in to one and add a few thoughts that occurred to me afterwards. All apologies if it seems random, but...

Many moons ago I enjoyed some time in Judo. I recall a kindly, small, spindly old fella demonstrating hadaka jime on me. I still *vividly* remember my initial reaction which was like my head was about to pop off just like a pimple (sorry, but it is about the best explanation of the feeling). I agree that there are times when it feels like the pressure in your head is going up. I don't know if it *really* is, but it is a distinctive and unmistakable feeling. And it seemed like only a few blinks of an eye before I was fuzzed then gone.

There is a distinctive "Oh CRAP!" feeling that happens when it is applied. And frankly I've seen it happen a few times for the first time for some people and their reaction is always the same -- big eyes, jolting, etc. I think there is some sort of deep reptilian part of the brain that reacts to having the flow cut that is simply normal and natural. And if you're not experienced in what it feels like the reactions are fairly predictable as Mr. Clark has already pointed out.

Not that long ago I was chatting about martial arts with a friend of mine who is *highly* experienced in knife fighting styles. Well, we got talking about things like hadaka jime (rear naked choke in my understanding). I said that properly administered it can be a very difficult thing to deal with. His response was "well, not if I have a knife in my hands". So since we were talking and we had a training knife we decided to see what would happen. My only request was for him to allow me to get in to position cleanly first because I simply didn't want to run the risk of damaging his neck or throat. So I got in to place with no pressure and said "okay, remember to tap out if you need to, but here I go". So I tightened the jime and the first thing I feel is his tightening up (normal - they sort of "jolt" especially the first time they've ever felt it) then I heard his knife hit the ground. I let go immediately thinking "Oh, crap, I must have hurt him." Well, no, I hadn't. He had never had one applied. When it clicked in he simply dropped his weapon and started to flail about. That's when I let go thinking I'd hurt him. So an *experienced* guy who on any day can filet me from here to Sunday with decades of training with that specific weapon *dropped it*.

Of course this is just one case, an anecdote, but also consistent with my experience of how people react to a properly applied hadaka jime. There's not much escape there and given the shock and time constaints *if done correctly* it is a devastating and rather decisive technique. In my experience at least.

Of course he let me get in to position cleanly. But this was to test the idea. So there are issues there as well.

Another observation is that the instances I've heard of regarding injuries are mostly during untrained idiots doing what they've seen on the tube (either tv or youtube) and hurting each other. Other instances are the LEO involved incidents where they were using more of an arm-bar across the windpipe to crush everything. Good for pain compliance, I suppose, but significantly more dangerous especially if the person receiving is flailing or isn't feeling pain for whatever reason. I used Hadaka jime as my example of the technique because properly applied it won't even tend to leave a bruise let alone any serious damage. Of *course* it involved shutting down the brain due to cutting off oxygen flow to the brain. That by definition is of course more dangerous, but I've not heard of anyone ever being injured in training doing this sort of thing "correctly" (i.e., well trained). Now I've seen and received injuries doing any variety of other things in Aikido that hobble me today. But no ill effects that I know of from being choked out a few times. Hmmm, maybe that pillow drooling... Have to think about that...

Anyway, my experience is that it is a devastatingly effective technique done correctly. I do not practice (nor would I ever think of teaching) any windpipe crushing techniques. Too dangerous IMHO. I have, however, taught classes in Aikido about chokes (kubishime) and when I have the right students in class I'll demonstrate what it feels like to have a hadaka jime applied. I have never let one go longer than just a brief second -- that has been overwhelmingly convincing to each person thus far that it is effective. I do this to remind them why it is so important to avoid getting caught in one. There are things you do to make it difficult to get something like a hadaka-jime. And I want them to understand the difference between someone choking painfully on the windpipe is a different event from someone cutting off flow. And frankly many "chokes" applied by amateurs are either extremely dangerous or completely useless as they don't know what they're trying to accomplish. So the teaching is about making sure students understand what's going on and how it feels.

Hopefully I gathered together all my old points.

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Old 01-03-2012, 04:37 PM   #42
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Well written Keith. l began learning shimewaza from Ernie Cates Sensei in 1965, soft, precise application with almost "snake-like" arms and hands applying sudden pressure in the right places with a slight "wiggle" in the movement... the shimewaza takes seemingly instant effect. It is not blocking the airway. One person said that it seemed like it was like a "gentle caress" and then the lights went out. These are not "chokes." Proper terminology, no matter what the language, is very important.

People that are trying "chokes" are very dangerous because they almost always apply pressure to the larynx to cut off the air. It's very easy to injure your partner this way. I don't allow this sort of "choking" in my dojo or organization. These are combative techniques in my opinion.

Train safely.

Chuck Clark
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:55 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Kevin, what makes your practice "relatively safe"? How do you control the degree to which you reduce the flow of blood to the brain? How do you know that it's "enough" to cause them to pass out and no more? And how does someone learn such things, such that they can practice "safely"? Clearly trial and error is not the way.
Good question. Uke has a responsibility to tap. Nage also has a responsibility to recognize what is going on in the situation as well. You also have an instructor who should be watching and controlling the situation as well. I have been choked to passing out a few times. It was because I was too stubborn to admit I need to tap my opponent and thought I still had a chance!

The chokes don't happen immediately, you have 30 seconds or so to start feeling light headed and realize that things are getting dark!

Other than that, when a un-skilled student say gets a "air" choke...you have to tap before he applies it and let him know what is going on. Same with neck cranks. They can look like chokes, but are a different mechanism. Again, the instructor must be trained and know what is going on to control the situation.

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Old 01-03-2012, 05:10 PM   #44
Keith Larman
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The chokes don't happen immediately, you have 30 seconds or so to start feeling light headed and realize that things are getting dark!
Are you talking about a choke that closes the carotid or one that crushes the airway? Cause 30 seconds is a *long* time in my experience. 5-10 seconds is what I'd normally say when I've seen it done well.

There's a good article here I just found surfing around on the topic.

Article on choking in judo by an MD.

FWIW.

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Old 01-03-2012, 06:46 PM   #45
Michael Hackett
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Reading Keith's referred article reminded me of a conversation I had a couple of years ago with Dr. Vincent DeMaio at a police conference on in-custody deaths. After reading a number of articles that suggested "choking out" an individual is life-threatening in all cases, I asked him specifically about the classic judo or police carotid restraint technique. As the article suggested, Dr. DeMaio told me that there was no recorded death related to the use of the judo technique in the sport, nor was there any documented death in police training.

I've been "choked out" in training on a number of occasions, both in police defensive tactics classes and on the mat with judo and BJJ players. The experience was exactly like going unconscious under high G forces in an aircraft (I once got to fly the backseat of an F-18 with the Blue Angels and I start going out at 5.9 G and I'm toast at 6.1 G). My vision starts to become tunnel vision and dark, and few seconds or less later, I'm happily napping away. When I recover I am lost for a few seconds and have no idea where I am or how I got there. I haven't found it to be unpleasant except for the sense of disorientation immediately upon recovery.

I don't feel the need to go out anymore and I will tap once the technique is firmly and properly applied. If I'm a little slow in tapping, I might start feeling the tunnel vision coming on. The best and most effective applications I've experienced were indeed snakelike and quite gentle.

I've used the carotid restraint a number of times on the street with violent suspects and it has never failed me and has never resulted in a suspect injury. On one occasion the carotid restraint literally saved my life. It is a good tool and I truly believe aikido folks should learn the technique, if nothing else in order to learn how to defend against it.

Michael
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:04 PM   #46
Keith Larman
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Reading Keith's referred article reminded me of a conversation I had a couple of years ago with Dr. Vincent DeMaio at a police conference on in-custody deaths. After reading a number of articles that suggested "choking out" an individual is life-threatening in all cases, I asked him specifically about the classic judo or police carotid restraint technique. As the article suggested, Dr. DeMaio told me that there was no recorded death related to the use of the judo technique in the sport, nor was there any documented death in police training.

I've been "choked out" in training on a number of occasions, both in police defensive tactics classes and on the mat with judo and BJJ players. The experience was exactly like going unconscious under high G forces in an aircraft (I once got to fly the backseat of an F-18 with the Blue Angels and I start going out at 5.9 G and I'm toast at 6.1 G). My vision starts to become tunnel vision and dark, and few seconds or less later, I'm happily napping away. When I recover I am lost for a few seconds and have no idea where I am or how I got there. I haven't found it to be unpleasant except for the sense of disorientation immediately upon recovery.
That tracks quite well with my experience as well. It's not all that horrible to experience, just at first your physical reaction is one of "something is very wrong here...". Then you come back with a bit of "what the hell just happened? Oh, yeah..." mentally.

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
I don't feel the need to go out anymore and I will tap once the technique is firmly and properly applied. If I'm a little slow in tapping, I might start feeling the tunnel vision coming on. The best and most effective applications I've experienced were indeed snakelike and quite gentle.
With ya 100% on that one. The first few times I kept on trying to get out only to wake up later. Being a little calmer, a little older, and not at all with any question about how it works I tap out the moment I feel that they've got it. It's really over at that point and I'm at that stage of my life where I can easily ack that I'm on the losing end...

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Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
I've used the carotid restraint a number of times on the street with violent suspects and it has never failed me and has never resulted in a suspect injury. On one occasion the carotid restraint literally saved my life. It is a good tool and I truly believe aikido folks should learn the technique, if nothing else in order to learn how to defend against it.
Out of curiosity and understanding if you do not want to reply, were you able to apply them without sustaining any injuries yourself? In other words, did any of the suspects manage to mount any sort of response once you were in position and applying the carotid restraint?

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Old 01-03-2012, 08:35 PM   #47
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Yes, I did on the one occasion where I was in serious trouble. I'll set the stage a little. I was working as a resident deputy on a weekend and was dispatched to a camping area to deal with a disturbance. I found the suspect at his campsite and the complainants were close by. The suspect had entered the victim's tent while she and her boyfriend slept and he reportedly groped her. He was drunk and pretty powerfully built - as it turns out he was a power lifter and the fight was on. My nearest back up was about a half hour away and the other civilians in the area were too wasted to assist me. I finally got behind him and started to apply the carotid restraint. He panicked and jumped straight up into the air, taking me with him. We landed on our left sides with me taking the impact on my left shoulder and breaking it. He was growling like a deranged dog and still trying to get free, all the while making comments about my heritage and how much shorter my life span was about to be. I believed him at that point. I still had my right arm in position and I was able to apply pressure by catching my right fingertips on my jawline to effect the technique. Thankfully he went nappy-bye and I was able to get him cuffed before he woke up. I called for back-up and an ambulance and sat on his upper back until help arrived. Six weeks in a sling and six more weeks of PT and I was able to return to full duty.

Obviously I made a couple of mistakes. No, I couldn't wait for back up before dealing with the complaint. In the rural settings an officer usually has to act and such was the case this evening. When he leapt in the air, I should have let go and tried again when he crashed by himself. This was in the late 70s and we didn't have portable radios or TASERS, but we did have batons and MACE. I didn't like using MACE because it just wasn't all that effective on anyone but other cops and bystanders.

I have received a couple of elbows in the ribs when using the RNC, never to even a painful degree. As I said earlier, it is an excellent technique when properly applied, but I don't advocate doing it one-handed.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:35 PM   #48
Keith Larman
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Wow, interesting story. Now I'm going to have to consider how I'd apply it one-armed... I can see how catching your jawline might work if you arm is long enough.

Oh, and I was going to say that sounded like a great time for a TASER.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 01-03-2012 at 11:47 PM.

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Old 01-04-2012, 12:26 AM   #49
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

Another little interesting piece of the puzzle was my flashlight. We all carried the heavy, black flashlights at the time and there had been some real controversy about striking suspects with the flashlight during that period. Some of us converted to plastic lights and I was carrying a six-cell plastic light that evening. During the fight I struck the suspect on the shoulder with my new PC light and I don't know which of us was most amazed at the stream of flying batteries sailing across the desert sky! I put my Kel-Lite back in service when I returned to work.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:41 PM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Why don't we practice chokes?

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Are you talking about a choke that closes the carotid or one that crushes the airway? Cause 30 seconds is a *long* time in my experience. 5-10 seconds is what I'd normally say when I've seen it done well.

There's a good article here I just found surfing around on the topic.

Article on choking in judo by an MD.

FWIW.
Nah..your right....I don't really time em...but thinking about it...yeah 30 seconds is a long time. Typing too fast this morning. LOL. I think it might seem like 30 seconds, but 5 is about right!

Thanks for the great post on the subject Keith!

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