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-   -   Why don't we practice chokes? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20654)

Conrad Gus 12-15-2011 04:18 PM

Why don't we practice chokes?
 
I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

Does anyone have any information or theories?

lbb 12-15-2011 04:41 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
If you render someone unconscious due to lack of oxygen-carrying blood to the brain, you better be damn sure you can revive them if need be.

(in other words, I expect there's a sad story behind it, OR someone pointed out just how stupid it is to be playing around with chokes unless you really, really know what you're doing)

Demetrio Cereijo 12-15-2011 04:41 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.

kaishaku 12-15-2011 05:39 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
It's undignified.

Belt_Up 12-15-2011 05:51 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

Quote:

If you render someone unconscious due to lack of oxygen-carrying blood to the brain, you better be damn sure you can revive them if need be.
From what I know, things like the vascular neck restraint are incredibly safe. Judo has used them for decades with no reported deaths.

Linky: http://www.lvrj.com/news/proper-use-...-75766857.html

Kevin Leavitt 12-15-2011 05:54 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Ummm..u can practice chokes without actually having to go all the way.

Belt_Up 12-15-2011 06:01 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
No girls fall for that one any more.

Janet Rosen 12-15-2011 06:27 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Geoff Byers wrote: (Post 300007)
No girls fall for that one any more.

????

Belt_Up 12-15-2011 06:49 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

without actually having to go all the way.
Was I too subtle?

Mary Eastland 12-15-2011 07:19 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
We practice a choking technique.

kewms 12-15-2011 07:30 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Geoff Byers wrote: (Post 300003)
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

That would be my guess. Chokes also seem like they would be a poor choice for a multiple attacker situation.

Katherine

LinTal 12-15-2011 10:26 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Maybe it's a conflict of philosophy? My understanding is that we aim to restrict movement or repel the opponent damaging them.

'You break it you bought it' kinda thing. :D

David Orange 12-15-2011 11:35 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Even rarer is the choke done through sutemi waza, as was the specialty of Minoru Mochizuki's yoseikan budo aikido. See here at 3:00, 3:15 and 3:21--all chokes done from sutemi waza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZKrk...eature=related

The choke is a powerful tool and it can be done altogether safely. All our chokes in yoseikan came from judo or from jujutsu and modified by judo's standards of safe practice. We never actually choked one another unconscious but stopped when the chokee tapped out. But choking was a fair option at any time in randori, for any attack that presented the opening. As you can see Washizu Sensei perform these techniques, they can be applied very fast and smoothly for devastating overall effect.

Best.

David

Quote:

Conrad Gustafson wrote: (Post 299996)
I know some groups practice chokes sometimes. I've done a little bit within formal aikido practice. It seems like an effective way to end an encounter and does not have to do any permanent damage to the attacker, so I don't see why they don't pop up more often.

I'm curious why there are so few choke techniques in aikido. Is it for philosophical reasons, practical reasons, or just a historical oddity?

Does anyone have any information or theories?


Carsten Möllering 12-16-2011 01:54 AM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
We practice chokes as kihon of irimi nage in suwari waza and hanmi handachi waza.

This same form is kihon of irimi nage and sokumen irimi nage (kokyu ho /sokumen irimi nage) in tanto dori, jo dori and jo nage, tachi dori.

We practice ushiro katate dori kubi shime as a attack on a regular base.

Dave de Vos 12-16-2011 02:01 AM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 300031)
We practice ushiro katate dori kubi shime as a attack on a regular base.

I remember us doing that last week, ushiro katate dori kubi shime sankyo: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940148_ai...o-defense.html

We have not done this technique where nage gets to choke uke, but it looks interesting: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940218_mu...kubishime.html

bob_stra 12-16-2011 02:25 AM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 299998)
Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.

Opinions vary



I think Yoseikan does some of the "pass the weapon, step behind them" type things that are amicable to hadaka jime. (Ditto some FMA schools). And hey, it's never a bad idea to have a human shield, right? :D

Demetrio Cereijo 12-16-2011 03:02 AM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Dave de Vos wrote: (Post 300032)
We have not done this technique where nage gets to choke uke, but it looks interesting: http://www.ehow.com/video_4940218_mu...kubishime.html

I would not call that a choke but a faint caused by sudden pressure in carotid sinus baroreceptors.

Bob,

Too risky is not the same than impossible. Anyway I would not recommend Feldenkrais approach if it resembles what can be seen in this clip unless there are not other options available.

I'll try to get the book so I can get a more complete picture about his views on choking armed people in a combative environment.

bob_stra 12-16-2011 03:26 AM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.

For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix. Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. I think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).

Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity. But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.

Demetrio Cereijo 12-16-2011 03:51 AM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote: (Post 300036)
Well, I don't want to get into a too long discussion on Feldenkrais, his work etc. I agree the cited clip is a little unrealistic. (I'm not sure how representative that clip is of Moshe's actual approach, though). However, it bears pointing out that Feldenkrais tested this kind of thing with live weapons, against resisting opponents, so there may be something of value to be mined from that book.

I'm already aware of Feldenkrais' genius. If I get the book I'll give my unworthy (never choked anyone in a battlefield) opinion, but some of the pics in the cover make me cringe.

Quote:

For a more modern take on chokes, grappling against weapons etc, I'd look to ISR Matrix. Unsurprisingly, you can kind of trace ISR back to judo (by way of BJJ / SBGi) too. think Floro Fighting Systems *might* have some focus on limb tying / passing akin to a two-on-one, armdrag, step around to the back. You could argue that hakada jime is one possible finish from there (assuming you use the takedown hadaka per Feldenkrais cover).
Don't know about Floro's work, but ISRM is, from what I've seen, a good system. And I'll add SBGI STAB is very good too, as Dog Bros DLO.

Quote:

Personally, I think the issue with choking some is that it's too slow. 5-10 seconds can be an eternity.
Not counting all the previous work to get there and establish control on the opponent who should be trying to fight back/escape/defend the choke.

Quote:

But, as I said, opinions vary, and surely it's better to be behind the guy with the knife then in front of him.
Sure, but as you have already noticed, usually Aikido chokes imply controlling uke's armed hand. Similar as you can see in Judo Kime no Kata when weapon has been drawn.

Michael Varin 12-16-2011 03:57 AM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
I think it is important to learn chokes/strangles, but I agree with what Demetrio said.

Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Choking people who is armed/possibily armed is too risky.

Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Too risky is not the same than impossible.

The picture Bob posted and video Demetrio linked to above are perfect examples of why it probably is too risky to attempt to choke out an armed opponent.

A lot can happen in 3 to 15 seconds, especially with a determined adversary holding a sharp object.

This is probably why the most prevalent choke in aikido (ushiro kubi shime) includes a wrist hold.

Chuck Clark 01-01-2012 06:14 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Did we lose the rest of the discussion about shimewaza? I hope not, there were several posts that I had wanted to look at again and then the server went down.

lbb 01-01-2012 06:20 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Geoff Byers wrote: (Post 300003)
I would think, given aikido's roots, where you would pin an opponent and kill them, a choke would be looked at as taking too long?

A choke is not strangulation. Strangulation does not happen quickly; a choke incapacitates and renders unconscious very quickly. Speaking from personal experience, here.

Quote:

Geoff Byers wrote: (Post 300003)
From what I know, things like the vascular neck restraint are incredibly safe. Judo has used them for decades with no reported deaths.

Those two sentences are not in agreement. Absence of reported death does not equal "incredibly safe". There are many activities with inherent deadly risk where, for a number of different interconnected reasons, actual deaths are rare or unknown. That does not make these activities safe.

Byron Foster 01-01-2012 09:10 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm There were 16 choke hold deaths by the Los Angeles Police alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?

graham christian 01-01-2012 09:56 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Byron Foster wrote: (Post 300059)
Searching google for police choke deaths gets too many hits.

http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm There were 16 choke hold deaths by the Los Angeles Police alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

What kind of trade offs do we want to make? Effective technique versus possible harm and death?

I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.

I would say good practice in Aikido would be to try such positions as would be chokes and find what is more appropriate, less damaging and yet more effective. The way of Aikido no?

Regards.G.

Conrad Gus 01-01-2012 10:37 PM

Re: Why don't we practice chokes?
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 300062)
I think the word choke is inappropriate to Aikido. Why cut off the air, the windpipe? Neck holds would be a better concept, a version of close in iriminage would be just as effective. Learning to hold with a circle too. Lots of ways in Aikido without blocking or cutting off the windpipe.

Agreed that the term is misleading, but that's what the BJJ people call it.


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