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Old 12-12-2011, 08:19 AM   #101
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
In my earlier post I alluded to the difference between irrimi the physical movement and irrimi the philosophical concept. After reading posts subsequent to mine, I would like to elaborate on that point.

I believe that irrimi in its philosophical and physical forms have evolved and digressed from one another. The result of this digression is that the modern notion of irrimi cannot be physically realized. So, we have changed the physical irrimi to comply within the philosophical notion of irrimi.
Very interesting.

Wondering if the change in the physical irimi had something to do with not getting right the philosophical notion of irimi.

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Old 12-12-2011, 08:57 AM   #102
graham christian
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

I would say the physical change has everything to do with not being able to translate the philosophical into practice.

Simplicity: It is based on the attacker commanding and using that straight line of attack. Irimi says let him have it in more ways than one ha, ha.

Just because someone has never met someone who could do it doesn't mean it's not so. To me it means they need more training until they can.

They would have to know the principles of non-resistance, non-interference and pathways to do so. Until then they don't know and thus change it to suit.

If your purpose is to defeat the attacker then you will have a hard time understanding irimi in it's essence.

All 'tricks' by the way are seen as tricks for only one of two reasons in my mind. One is that they are beyond the observers understanding and looked at dismissively. The other is that the observer understands yet sees it as not true to the purpose of the activity and thus with a purpose of looking impressive or some such. However, all 'tricks' are principles in action.

I've been to a demonstration by Shioda Sensei and anyone who has would know it's full of 'tricks' and has the audience laughing. Good fun but also shows a measure of understanding and application of certain principles. Isn't I/P full of 'tricks'? Therefore it's using certain principles. Whether they align with the purpose of Aikido is open to debate.

Just like the principle of irimi, you don't know until you can do it rather than being an expert on how it can't be done.

Regards.G.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:31 AM   #103
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Demetrio-

I dunno. Honestly speaking, I do not have a solid answer that I would assert. However, we do have the concept of irrimi [better] preserved in other arts and we could look to those arts to reconstruct what we are doing. But, I think that would mean some reconstructing of the philosophical side too...

My gut tells me that there has been some "altering" on both sides. My gut feeling also tells me that we are missing the philosophy and our physical irrimi has been [more] twisted to suit the current notion we hold. Phi said it before, only in aikido do we need a small novella to express a concept that is covered in a chapter in every other martial art.

My face, your hand. If my hand gets there first, who is conflicting with whom?
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:38 PM   #104
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Thanks Ellis. I thought I did read your article carefully. When you said ON THE SAME PATH in capital letters I assumed that you meant on the same path.

I mentioned tachidori in one of my seven points because it's a clear way to see the weak points in irimi. It's one method of training. It's nothing to do with fantasy. It's stylized like many aspects of martial arts. Not many people attack in real life with shomen uchi or ryote dori but we can learn something from them too. Tachidori is on many promotion tests in aikido. As I said in aikido we train in principles. The basic irimi is the same against any attack.

That's enough for words. Let me just illustrate what I mean by irimi. This is my late teacher Sadateru Arikawa Sensei doing irimi (from 1.30). It's a beautiful, pure and effective movement. A sen no sen entry simultaneously getting off the line - as I already explained. It's the way I do irimi. It's the way I teach irimi.

And I'm not sure how to write to you through the authors mail so I'll do it here - welcome to the columns Ellis. Looking forward to reading your articles.

Regards,

Niall

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Old 12-12-2011, 10:26 PM   #105
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Actually most people intent on hurting you attack off your line. They tend to come in from behind or on the flank and NOT straight in on your line the way we tend to practice it. So it is even MORE important to turn your line toward theirs by entering. Moving any other direction only creates more space for them to continue their line of attack and improve it.

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Old 12-12-2011, 10:39 PM   #106
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Just so there is no am ambiguity. I'm suggesting cutting not "off-line" or "in-line." "On the line, " the phrase i used, perhaps could more accurately be termed, "cutting through their line." Irimi creates space and allows us to occupy a space where one is not (or at least less) vulnerable, while making the enemy more vulnerable.
For an example of the relative as opposed to the absolute:
It is situational (specific) rather than general. For example, an individual lunges forward to tackle another, but is too high, and is choked in a "guillotine." But if he has a knife in his hand and has minimal skills in neutralizing such a choke (delaying his unconsciousness), this would be irimi.

Best
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:42 AM   #107
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
My gut tells me that there has been some "altering" on both sides. My gut feeling also tells me that we are missing the philosophy and our physical irrimi has been [more] twisted to suit the current notion we hold.
It would be an interesting exercice to look for the unaltered versions and check if there are discordances between the physical form and the philosophical explanations, don't you think?

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Old 12-13-2011, 05:52 AM   #108
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

I agree with Jon. Of course my view tends to be fairly abrubt and very direct and could use a little more skill. It has kept me alive though so i am okay with it.

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Old 12-13-2011, 09:48 AM   #109
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Demetrio-

I think this is actually a fascinating subject and one I started looking into a little while back. Amdur Sensei has a background in both aikido and koryu systems and the article touches on what I have experienced when working in sword stuff and good empty-hand (especially a karate person or striker). That is maybe why I liked the article... as for the explanations of irrimi in other arts, I am still checking into them...

Also, I am starting to get the notion that aikido=irrimi. I am a big fan of the occupy movement.... The occupy space movement, that is.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:49 PM   #110
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Also, I am starting to get the notion that aikido=irrimi. I am a big fan of the occupy movement.... The occupy space movement, that is.
Being a good Brooklyn girl I always subscribed to the Ratso Rizzi irimi occupation of space characterized by the kiai "I'm walkin' here!"

Janet Rosen
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:38 AM   #111
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

So if aikido = irimi and is also 90 something percent atemi and you factor in someone like Kuroiwa's views on aikido technique related to boxing strikes as a method of fixing someone in place such that they have to reset and add on this whole newfangled internal strength resurgence/resurrection/rennaisance . . . sounds like a pretty intriguing type of study before you ever get to actually applying a specific waza.

Hrm.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:15 PM   #112
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
So if aikido = irimi and is also 90 something percent atemi and you factor in someone like Kuroiwa's views on aikido technique related to boxing strikes as a method of fixing someone in place such that they have to reset and add on this whole newfangled internal strength resurgence/resurrection/rennaisance . . . sounds like a pretty intriguing type of study before you ever get to actually applying a specific waza.

Hrm.
If is a big word......ha,ha.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:59 PM   #113
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If is a big word......ha,ha.
Dude, it's two letters
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:09 PM   #114
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If is a big castle.....ha,ha.
Fixed.

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Old 12-14-2011, 06:35 PM   #115
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

You ain't kidding... of course, Kuriowa, as well as some other shihan, advocated that "waza" (kata no kihon waza, that is) was less important than "kihon" (which was the whole irrimi connecton). In any case, I am starting to be seriously convinced about this get your house in order stuff before I started tripping over technique.

Don't even get me started on the whole atemi is used to take and occupy space thing. Atemi=irrimi=aikido. Damn.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:56 PM   #116
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Atemi=irrimi=aikido. Damn.
,

Add kiai with a / in front of atemi and I wholeheartedly agree... and damned straight... right on!

A Peaceful, Safe, and Joyful Holiday Season To All,

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Old 12-14-2011, 08:47 PM   #117
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Dude, it's two letters
But is even bigger....
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:52 PM   #118
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Fixed.
Hold on, a new level here. How did you change the words of a quote? Do you work for hombu? ha,ha.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:18 AM   #119
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Just to go full "circle" on this thread, here is a quotation from Fujita Masatake:

Quote:
The body movement used in aikido is summarized in the expression "enter in one step, and apply the principle of circularity." (irimi issoku, enten no ri). You use your center to enter and displace the opponent's center as much as possible. This is irimi. So the "Fujita theory" means training in a way that thoroughly explores this use of irimi.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 01-27-2012, 06:44 PM   #120
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Still revisiting this somewhat old, but still interesting subject.

Here is Nishio Sensei's take on irimi.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 01-28-2012, 03:52 AM   #121
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

For me, a clip in the following video demonstrates my understanding of the irimi principle.

It's a nine minute video but the relevant section I'm referring to occurs only in the first 1.5 seconds. Blink and you'll miss it! You'll certainly have to replay it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmSnb-Es2vI

(Notice the 'shita kara ue' nature of the movement).
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:59 PM   #122
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Thanks for posting the video Ellis, I especially liked the comment " In Aikido, victory is decided at the moment of contact".
Its so interesting to read the different concepts of what irimi is and is not to different aikidoka`s. In our practise we work from the foundation that,

"Aikido is the physical manifestation (irimi / tenkan) of a universal law (yin / yang)".

Everything we do when practising with our partner/attacker is to try and create irimi. Without irimi there is no Aikido. When we say irimi / tenkan we mean
Irimi -- to enter and control.
Tenkan -- to receive and control.
"It is often said that they are different sides of the same coin" - Tamura Shihan.
I would be interested in your thoughts on this and from the guys who are from a Tamura background, as we work from his foundations,

cheers.
Chris.
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:14 PM   #123
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

Chris - Tamura sensei is someone I never met. So I don't know exactly what he meant by that statement. For my part, as I've written, in various forms in both Dueling with O-sensei and HIPS, irimi is engagement and is required in any and all moves, and tenkan is a controlled <permutation> when the opponent is also executing irimi. As if, two spear tips meet - and the victor is the one who, without retracting, avoiding or pulling back, <spirals around> the other's irimi.

In other words, tenkan is an accentuation of the spiral inherent in any irimi.

Best
Ellis Amdur

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 01-29-2012 at 05:28 PM.

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Old 01-29-2012, 06:33 PM   #124
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
and the victor is the one who, without retracting, avoiding or pulling back, <spirals around> the other's irimi.
In other words, tenkan is an accentuation of the spiral inherent in any irimi.
without retracting, avoiding or pulling back = to me the essence of correct tenkan.

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Old 04-04-2012, 10:15 AM   #125
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Re: "Irimi" by Ellis Amdur

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
you can get behind them by going through them. i have practiced with folks whose training involved staying on the line and taking the center as well as folks who always getting off line. i found that folks who trained to stay on the line didn't have problem getting off line; that's just another option for them. however, folks who always trained with getting off the line, had a hard time stay on the line when required, i.e. put them on a log bridge exercise.
Great comment. "Once off line, Uke have more time to continue/mount another attack. Please consider staying on line and use yin and yang. Demonstrated by videos of Yamashima sensei, Bill Gleason sensei and many others who uses ground path and yin and yang or Bruce Lee's movies. One of Bruce Lee's favorite is to "dissolve the attach and attach (enter) at he same time". Again, yin and yang (O-sensei's secret).

Last edited by akiy : 04-04-2012 at 10:34 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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