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Old 11-25-2011, 07:22 PM   #26
Michael Hackett
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Re: Principles of pinning

Good observation Matthew. Frequently officers will use a leg sweep technique or a single arm takedown (think variation of ikkyo) to move an offender to the ground. What happens too often is that they don't move with the suspect and find they are trying to hold the offender's weight against gravity. The result is the individual will end up face down with his arms underneath himself. That's where it starts to get interesting and dangerous to all. With the hands and arms uncontrolled, the suspect remains a threat and the officer(s) have to get the arms freed and then secured. In most cases that when you see officers pulling on the arms and giving distraction blows. Once the arms are freed and handcuffs applied, the best practice is to roll the individual over to his back, sit him up, and while supporting his upper body, allow him to get his own feet under himself and stand up to be moved under his own power.

By contrast, in aikido practice Nage generally remains in control of at least one limb all the way to the ground, and with that limb can control Uke's movement once down. Check out any of the Robert Koga videos on YouTube. He has adapted classic aikido technique into something much simpler for law enforcement to use successfully.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:01 PM   #27
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
What song are they dancing to?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:21 PM   #28
Cady Goldfield
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Talking Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
What song are they dancing to?
Zornik's "Pin Me Down"
Wait - do you know me?
Wait - before you pin me down
Wait - do you know me?
Wait - before you pin me down


Or, maybe Reba McEntire's "Aiki (p) on Loving You."
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Old 11-25-2011, 11:16 PM   #29
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Good observation Matthew. Frequently officers will use a leg sweep technique or a single arm takedown (think variation of ikkyo) to move an offender to the ground. What happens too often is that they don't move with the suspect and find they are trying to hold the offender's weight against gravity. The result is the individual will end up face down with his arms underneath himself. That's where it starts to get interesting and dangerous to all. With the hands and arms uncontrolled, the suspect remains a threat and the officer(s) have to get the arms freed and then secured. In most cases that when you see officers pulling on the arms and giving distraction blows. Once the arms are freed and handcuffs applied, the best practice is to roll the individual over to his back, sit him up, and while supporting his upper body, allow him to get his own feet under himself and stand up to be moved under his own power.

By contrast, in aikido practice Nage generally remains in control of at least one limb all the way to the ground, and with that limb can control Uke's movement once down. Check out any of the Robert Koga videos on YouTube. He has adapted classic aikido technique into something much simpler for law enforcement to use successfully.
Thank you, Michael! I really enjoyed reading about Robert Koga and checking out a few of his videos! I like his straight-forward approach to waza! I'll have to take a closer look when I have a bit more time: e seems like an interesting man who's lived an interesting life...I always feel a certain facination and connection with Japanese-Americans who were interred at "camp" being that my wife's family shared that experience.
Thanks again!
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-25-2011, 11:17 PM   #30
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Good observation Matthew. Frequently officers will use a leg sweep technique or a single arm takedown (think variation of ikkyo) to move an offender to the ground. What happens too often is that they don't move with the suspect and find they are trying to hold the offender's weight against gravity. The result is the individual will end up face down with his arms underneath himself. That's where it starts to get interesting and dangerous to all. With the hands and arms uncontrolled, the suspect remains a threat and the officer(s) have to get the arms freed and then secured. In most cases that when you see officers pulling on the arms and giving distraction blows. Once the arms are freed and handcuffs applied, the best practice is to roll the individual over to his back, sit him up, and while supporting his upper body, allow him to get his own feet under himself and stand up to be moved under his own power.
Something I have observed when watching "COPS" or other, is the officers have the offender in a position that will 'cause' them to struggle, and be yelling 'stop resisting.' I know that there are certain pins - applied a certain way that I am going to move, even if my mind says comply.

I don't know if it's the adrenaline of the situation, or they just don't recognize it, On the other hand while backing off slightly just might make it easier to comply, it also might give the offender another opportunity. I don't have the answer - just one of those things I think when I watch some of the takedowns...
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Old 11-26-2011, 02:37 AM   #31
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Re: Principles of pinning

Good Question.

Goal: My goal, aikido or no aikido is to control the person with minimal effort and maximum efficiency.

This does a couple of things for me. It controls the expenditure of my energy which will most likely be needed for other things and hopefully it reduces the struggle I will have to deal with which reduces my exposure to more stuff. It also works to keep my mind more clear so I can continue making the best decisions possible.

When teaching takedowns and pins to soldiers one thing I have noticed is the over investment of self into the situation. Too much of it...to much emphasis on a particular joint or arm, to much emotional investment in that one limb or person. It also tends to create a feedback loop that the "uke" or non-compliant person gets energy from and thus either continues to fight or escalates.

So, by reducing the proprioceptions and feedback loop the person experiences, the less of a fight I get all the way around.

I could really careless about the ethical concerns for his well being, he is in charge of that based on the decisions he wants to make. However, I want to keep him on the calm and disoriented side of things if I can so his decisions are along the lines that I want them to be which is doing what I say. Ironically, the less investment, input I give him, the more likely he is to go easy..which is a good thing cause it minimizes stuff for me to deal with.

I agree with Chris that when you throw weapons in the mix that the pins we traditionally see in Aikido make much more sense and form and shape tend to be more present.

However, for riot control or crowd control...well there are so many variables going on there that lead to the form and shape of what we see when we have 5 guys taking down one guy.

Alot of it comes from the level of training and skill of the officers involved in the situation and how they have trained collectively together.

It also depends on the goal of the protester as well which in many cases is not to fight back, but to simply be a dead fish or cause active/passive resistance. (Ever try picking up someone that wants to be dead weight?)

I addition within the context of OODA, there is alot going on in the dynamics of crowd control that interfere with the process. Lots of people, at what point are you in the OODA cycle? When do you escalate your use of force and how? It is not so easy I think. Couple that with the level of training of your police officers and you end up with the form and shape you see of 5 guys holding down one.

THey must also consider the level of investment and risk they are facing. It might be better for a couple of guys to takedown a non-compliant person vice one person. It is about the end state and not about the form.

Also officers will tend to hyperfocus under stress on the biggest problem of struggle..hence why the will all dogpile on the one.

IMO, there is alot going on in the dynamics of the situation dealing with crowd control that leads to the form and shape we see there.

Back to the relevancy of AIkido. I find it very relevant if trained properly. My goal and why I train in AIki arts is to reduce feel, feedback, and proprioception. This gives me more time to think and creates space for me to make decisions...and makes things safer for me dealing with a non-compliant person.

I know we don't want to get into an IP/IS conversation here, but I do think it is important to point out that to be honest, I see this as being the important reason for training in Aikido. If I have good structure, if I have the ability to connect and keep my opponent from being able to feed off me, then I can stay deeper within and way ahead of his OODA process and have room to make better decisions about how the "dance" is going down.

So, if I can first create this in my own body and own mind...then I can better control the conditions and shape things the way I want them.

A tall order for sure and one that is very difficult to acheive I think if you look at it this way.

So what you see on the street is very low skill stuff dealing with macro movement and gross motor skills under stress which will most definitlely look different than what we see in an aikido dojo. Hence why stuff like Koga is necessary in order to address the issue from a physical standpoint.

However, what we want to practice is something that is much more refined and might lead to a more skillfull application. Alas, most of us would be better at doing Koga first so we can understand first how to deal with gross movements and the stress of non-compliance prior to spending years wasting our time in a dojo doing crappy stuff that really leads to not much of anything except a mess of confusion.

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Old 11-26-2011, 07:17 AM   #32
Abasan
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Re: Principles of pinning

I'd like to call attention to some jujitsu pins used by the British army introduced by one of their COs from the world war era. Of pins, they are not exactly standard types, but used for practically immobilizing a prisoner whilst allowing the soldier to remain mobile and dangerous.

One of which I recall implicitly was to have the prisoner climb rope like on a pole or a small tree then have him sit straight down without releasing his leg grip. This pin is excruciating and prevents anyone, absolutely anyone from standing up or releasing themselves. Prolonged periods of enduring this will of course result in permanent disability, which back in those days were the least of their problems I guess.

For the modern world we live in, I guess attacking centerline would be as basic as you could get in terms of principle.

As for those touch/awase type pins... Like I said, obtuse people will get put of it because they'll run away. Most aikido with good ukemi though won't get out of it because they need to ensure the safety if their necks even as they try to escape. Which to me is kind of weird in a way. Since being pin means it's the end of story anyway.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:39 PM   #33
Michael Hackett
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Re: Principles of pinning

Joseph, you will rarely see much skill on "Cops". You will occasionally see an officer who is highly skilled, but most often they simply aren't. The average law enforcement officer was trained in his academy how to do a limited number of techniques, with very little training regarding the principles that make the techniques effective, while they are taught the principles of law relating to use of force. After the academy they might get a refresher every few years if they are lucky. As a result, even those who were superb in their basic training lose the skills over the years. By contrast martial artists practice their skills frequently and spend a lot of time developing the underlying principles.

You are also correct in what I would describe as "Mixed Martial Messages" in these situations. It is difficult at best to comply with instructions to surrender your arms when you have several officers placing body weight on your torso for example, and the struggle just goes on. Aikido pins aren't perfect either, but they do provide a foundation for good pins during arrest and control situations.

I still believe that a strong background in aikido would be beneficial to law enforcement officers across the country IF they would be willing to practice their skills. Therein lies the rub. Perishable skills simply deteriorate without practice. That is one of the great benefits of the Koga Method. Koga Sensei's material is the foundation of defensive tactics training in most agencies here in California and the basis for state required training. Simple competence is enough and a great degree of skill or athleticism isn't necessary.....but it has to be practiced. If not, you have interesting TV, but poor police practice.

Michael
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:42 AM   #34
ryback
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Drill the shoulder into the mat.
Exactly!From my experience this is the most important part of an imobilization.Make sure that the shoulder is pinned on the mat (on the ground in the case of a real fight) and that it stays there!
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:35 AM   #35
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Eric DesMarais wrote: View Post
No, that is not internal, it is inside. The two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. It has nothing to do with in yo, fire and water, movement within stillness, or six directions.

I am strictly referring to the physical benefits of a good stretch, something that is found in a variety of Eastern and Western external training methods.

While I have felt IHTBF (It Had to Be Felt), ICDI (I Can't Do It).
And yet, despite your view that Internal and inside are completely different, since the IS people spiral & wind their bodies to stretch and increase performance of fascia could it be possible that this might also be significant in the choice of selected Aikido immobilizations?

Quote:
Eric DesMarais wrote: View Post
One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.
One mans good stretch is another mans internal strength training I guess..and maybe has more to do with in yo (you mentioned it 1st not me ;-) and all the other elements of IS training than is visible at first sight.

Perhaps another example of things hidden in plain sight.

Cheers

D
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:32 PM   #36
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Yannis Mousoulis wrote: View Post
Exactly!From my experience this is the most important part of an imobilization.Make sure that the shoulder is pinned on the mat (on the ground in the case of a real fight) and that it stays there!
I also like very much simple approach, following principle KISS. However this will be too simplistic, just pin the shoulder. As in aikido there are no rules, attacker can do literally anything to go out of pin. That why I appreciate Michael and Kevin input, because their real life experiences follows similar 'no rules' scenarios. In this context, I like to think that from technical point of view the control of whole body structure is a minimum as opposed to concentrate on only one point of the body.
Real life experience tend to demonstrate that such control by one person can be achieved only with big difficulty and carries out a lot of risk. Nonetheless in aikido it is some kind of standard and it is approached as an easy routine.

But this discussion can give us some partial answer for question HOW.

Now, still we should ask question WHY.

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2011, 07:36 PM   #37
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Eric DesMarais wrote: View Post
One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.
That surly can be one possible goal, thanks!

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:38 PM   #38
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
The goal of pinning is to extend in a relaxed manner so uke can not get up. Uke should feel unable to move because they can't find the rest of their body to get up with.
Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2011, 07:48 PM   #39
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Aikido pins are not very secure from the physical/mechanical standpoint. That is to say, using only your body to apply an Aikido style pin is not very effective. However if you add the addition of a weapon, the pins have a very high level of security.

Aikido pins are of the type where one can easily apply the pin and still hold a weapon. Further the pins found in Aikido do a very good job of keeping the person you are pinning from using any potential weapons they may have. Further, Aikido pins are done in a way that allows nage to leave the pin rather quickly. Which is of paramount importance if one is facing multiple attackers.

While Aikido pins do lack the physical control found in many unarmed grappling styles, they do offer many advantages that wouldn't be found in their unarmed grappling counterpart: ability to control and use your weapon, ability to keep the person you are pinning from using their weapons while they are in your pin, and ease of escape for nage if something changes.
I like very much and appreciate your comment.
I had similar approach, however I realized it is directly from Daito ryu context. Back at that time ppl carried weapons so it was well placed in the actual context.

Not we are doing aikido, and as anyone can see, O sensei introduced a lot of changes to the techniques if compared with Diato ryu. I like to think - context changed, goals changed, so techniques must be adapted, otherwise it becomes nonsense from practical point of view. so I'm asking myself, what is the role of pins in aikido?
However many listed by you characteristics are very valid.

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2011, 07:50 PM   #40
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
O.k. The goals pretty obvious isn't it? To immobilize.

Regards.G.
I doubt it very much. aikido pins are not structural pins. Read Chris post.

Nagababa

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:10 PM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I also like very much simple approach, following principle KISS. However this will be too simplistic, just pin the shoulder. As in aikido there are no rules, attacker can do literally anything to go out of pin. That why I appreciate Michael and Kevin input, because their real life experiences follows similar 'no rules' scenarios. In this context, I like to think that from technical point of view the control of whole body structure is a minimum as opposed to concentrate on only one point of the body.
Real life experience tend to demonstrate that such control by one person can be achieved only with big difficulty and carries out a lot of risk. Nonetheless in aikido it is some kind of standard and it is approached as an easy routine.

But this discussion can give us some partial answer for question HOW.

Now, still we should ask question WHY.
Look around in real life and you will see the answer to you questions. Both how? and why?

You will see many hows and only one why. So if you want reality look in the right places.

Doormen might be a good place to look where they may be seen pinning someone. I'm sure you can think of other places where this may be a more common occurance and thus see various methods.

The why? I've already given in it's simplicity, to disable. To prevent from moving or escaping.

In Aikido that is the purpose yet in other arts it's may go that step further and the purpose may be to cause submission through pain etc.

I saw not too long ago a thief who was breaking into a car get chased down my road and caught and pinned. Bystanders called the police whilst the apprehended villain, although he couldn't escape or move could actually move his mouth, which of course never stopped ranting and saying how he was going to do him for assault.

Technically I would say the best formula in Aikido is first a control technique followed by a pin. Thus Ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc. Thus to differenciate also between control technique and pin. For example sankyo may be hard to master but once you do it's a good go to control technique in 'live' situations. But once again it's once you are good at it which takes slow methodical practice.

From the ikkyo pin personally I don't rely on extra stretching and prefer just enough stretch but that is not the main thing. The main thing for me is having center over the elbow and it feels like you are sitting center on their arm. This type for me removes all struggle from the person being pinned.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:16 AM   #42
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?
This reminded me of being pinned by Ushiro Sensei a few years ago up at Marc Abrams dojo. Even with Ushiro, I could find my body and could figure out how to struggle to get out of the pin in some small way. However, Ushiro made it very clear from his intent that bad things would happen if I did this. He would play "catch and release" a little with me. that is, he'd pin me down, minimal investment and then when I shifted or moved to try and gain back my structure, he'd re-establish it and drop me back down again. So from my experience with him, it was not so much about that I could not find my body, or continuously move, shift, or struggle to find a way...no it was more about the fact that he was one step ahead of me and would constantly adapt and stay ahead....it was not so static as "I am completely imobilized and cannot move or find my body....I could always find it, just couldn't do much with it when I did find it.

A much different game than a completely external or physical immobilization. So, I can see how Mary would describe it as this as you simply cannot orient yourself in a way to re-establish yourself. it requires a different set of skills, and VERY little investment from the guy pinning as he can walk the edge of "investment" which allows for many more opportunities!

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Old 11-29-2011, 08:38 AM   #43
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?
When the plane of the shoulder is broken, the elbow is immobilized and the wrist twisted and pressure applied to the hand...the pain and promise of more pain makes the rest of the body seem to go away.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 11-29-2011 at 08:39 AM. Reason: spelling

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Old 11-29-2011, 10:15 AM   #44
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Re: Principles of pinning

The layperson's idea of pinning is that restraint is acheived by using force equal or greater than that of his opponent. That's why it helps for LEOs to be a big guys. They'll probably be stronger than most and if nothing else they can use their weight and mass to acheive submissions, even if they lack martial arts skills.

The point of a pin is to let the person know that resistance will only increase thier pain. If they resist, and that resistance is not met with agony, then the pin is not being performed effectively. The reason LEOs prefer brute force over clean arm pins is because the criminals they apprehend are not well trained uke's. A real uke knows that when nage puts him in a painful pin, further resistance will only mean extreme pain and broken bones. But some out of control crackhead won't know that. Suspects will resist, and they'd even break their own limbs in order to do it. Then you have a police brutality issue on your hands, eventhough it was the criminal's fault for not complying.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:28 PM   #45
Basia Halliop
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Re: Principles of pinning

So are there ways of pinning someone where they're in a position where they simply can't exert enough force to resist in any useful way, EVEN if they're willing to injure themselves?

I feel like there are, from my experiences as an uke. Sometimes I just feel like I'm in a position where there's nothing I can brace myself against so as to create any kind of force.... Maybe I just haven't ever tried to test it to the point of injury, but sometimes it doesn't really feel like it's pain or risk of injury that's stopping me from escaping. It feels more like I'm in a position where I'm more than usually weak.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:33 PM   #46
Michael Hackett
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Re: Principles of pinning

Actually Roger you are incorrect on most counts here. Law enforcement officers are taught to perform what we call pins as control holds. The purpose is to control the offender's body, usually through a limb, until he can be mechanically restrained with handcuffs or the like and safely taken into custody and confined. The purpose is not to inflict pain, although that may happen just as it does in a dojo. "Police brutality" isn't a legal term. Excessive force is the term used by the courts. The force used by a law enforcement agent only becomes excessive force if it is unreasonable or unnecessary and doesn't hinge on whether the suspect suffers an injury. The determination of whether police application of force was reasonable is based on the "reasonable peace officer" standard which means would a reasonable peace officer use the same level of force under the same circumstances? The calculus involved does not involve reviewing all force options available, but was the actual force used reasonable and necessary.

You stated that officers choose to use brute force and I disagree. They certainly will use all the help available in any force event. Each participant will still be bound by the legal and department rules regarding use of force. A point to remember is that even the most noble of officers will not play fair in a confrontation. Fair is a sporting term and there are no sporting events in a criminal apprehension. The best will use their training appropriately, lawfully and ethically, but it won't necessarily be fair. One officer can restrain a suspect successfully, but why take the chance of an error if other officers are present to assist?

We train differently in the dojo than the cops do, and far more often. What we tend to forget in the dojo setting is that every throw is a notional death and every pin is a destructive incapacitation in theory.

Michael
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:21 PM   #47
Janet Rosen
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Re: Principles of pinning

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
So are there ways of pinning someone where they're in a position where they simply can't exert enough force to resist in any useful way, EVEN if they're willing to injure themselves?

I feel like there are, from my experiences as an uke. Sometimes I just feel like I'm in a position where there's nothing I can brace myself against so as to create any kind of force.... Maybe I just haven't ever tried to test it to the point of injury, but sometimes it doesn't really feel like it's pain or risk of injury that's stopping me from escaping. It feels more like I'm in a position where I'm more than usually weak.
Yep. There have been times I've told my nage, as I'm tapping, "you are causing me pain so I'm tapping, but you don't actually have me pinned." A good pin might give me wiggle room to test it, but it is immobilization, not pain, that stops me short. A REALLY good pin gives me no desire to even test it.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 11-29-2011, 04:09 PM   #48
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Principles of pinning

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Could you elaborate more, please? I don't understand how uke can't find his body to get up?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
When the plane of the shoulder is broken, the elbow is immobilized and the wrist twisted and pressure applied to the hand...the pain and promise of more pain makes the rest of the body seem to go away.
Isn't pain, and the promise of more of it, a form of violence? How is that blending or harmonizing? What if you had a way of pinning that neutralizes uke's efforts in a way that is painless to him yet subdues him and prevents him from attacking you further?
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Old 11-29-2011, 04:10 PM   #49
genin
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Re: Principles of pinning

Michael Hackett, Police brutality and excessive force is just a matter of semantics. One thing I've noticed from watching the show Cops is that LEOs love telling the suspect that they are resisting, even when the suspect is not. That way they can induce pain and slam the person's face into the dirtiest oil stain in the parking lot. Obviously, the LEOs are not happy that they had to forcefully restrain the suspect to begin with, so they "rough them up" a little more than required in order to let the suspect know "I don't appreciate you making me have to do this."

If you think about it, a simple clean pin is smooth, painless, and incredibly efficient. But five LEO's jumping on some guy and slamming him down and wrestling and prying back his arms with brute force is probably the least effective way to acheive that result, unless of course you were just trying to make it a rough and violent event in order to teach the suspect a lesson. I suppose it's neither here nor there whether or not this is a widespread practice, however, it does explain why we see this as much as we do.
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Old 11-29-2011, 04:42 PM   #50
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Principles of pinning

Roger, your description from watching "Cops" is all-to-often correct. That was my original thesis on this thread. Most officers receive minimal training in overcoming resistance and then don't practice it often enough to be really competent. That is often why you see several dealing with a single suspect. With well-trained officers you may also see several restraining a single individual, but doing so in a highly competent manner. As for the "stop resisting" orders, you may be right in some cases, and in others you are unable to see and feel the suspect's actions to know if there is any active resistance to be overcome. I'm sure that there are some officers who are intentionally using excessive force - it happens and I've fired a few over the years as well as testifying against them in civil cases. Most do their best to follow the law and behave properly, but the problem is lack of training even with the finest officers. There are a host of reasons for the lack of training, lack of interest; budget limitations; competing training priorities; Fair Labor Standards Act, and others. As you are surely aware, martial arts skills are perishable and must be practiced frequently and consistently.

I am not acting as a police apologist here - on the contrary. I want all of our officers to be well-trained, well-supervised, and well-disciplined and I continue to try and make that happen. I probably scream at the TV louder than most when watching "Cops" and police procedurals.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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