AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Principles of pinning (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20577)

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 02:05 PM

Principles of pinning
 
There is a quite amount of techniques in aikido that in the end contain pinning. I'm interested in your opinions what the characteristic of effective pinning in aikido are. Are they the same as in other Budo arts or fighting sports?

Recently I watched in TV how police in different towns evacuated protesters from parks, and sometimes it was needed up to 5 police officers to pin and transport one protester (who of course didn't want to gladly cooperate). In this light, how you see claims that in aikido you can pin somebody with one finger (or even one hand).

Again, please no IP/IS nonsens discussion here.

Abasan 11-24-2011 02:20 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Most common to rare...

Pain and mechanical leverage.
Dynamic intent (to continue attack on uke's chushin)
Passive reshaping of uke's atari.
Absolute harmonization with uke's energy.

The first two is probably the most understood method and the easiest to be overcome. Depending on uke's determination and complete obstinance to the fact that nage can attack him at will in any pinning position, which basically translates well to police work. Uke here generally disregards the officers ability to trash him during a pin because of potential law suits.

The 2nd two are ideal methods that does not force uke into anything and in fact puts him against himself. Some other arts do get very similar here... I'm thinking certain Silat can lock up even multiple opponents without dynamic intervention... But thenthey don't explain the secret very well.

Cady Goldfield 11-24-2011 06:43 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Szczepan, that's two threads you've started so far, today, where you've signed off your initial post with a "none of this nonsense IP/IS discussion." Couldn't you be a bit more polite about it? Just say something like "I'd like to discuss this within the parameters of Doshu's aikido" or modern Aikido.

Thanks!

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 09:26 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 298085)
Szczepan, that's two threads you've started so far, today, where you've signed off your initial post with a "none of this nonsense IP/IS discussion." Couldn't you be a bit more polite about it? Just say something like "I'd like to discuss this within the parameters of Doshu's aikido" or modern Aikido.

Thanks!

This is off topic and should be send as a private message.

graham christian 11-24-2011 09:27 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 298085)
Szczepan, that's two threads you've started so far, today, where you've signed off your initial post with a "none of this nonsense IP/IS discussion." Couldn't you be a bit more polite about it? Just say something like "I'd like to discuss this within the parameters of Doshu's aikido" or modern Aikido.

Thanks!

Oh I don't know. So much said loud and clear in so few words. A lessen to be learned perhaps.

It's a type of Kiai wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.

NagaBaba 11-24-2011 09:29 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 298057)
Most common to rare...

Pain and mechanical leverage.
Dynamic intent (to continue attack on uke's chushin)
Passive reshaping of uke's atari.
Absolute harmonization with uke's energy.

The first two is probably the most understood method and the easiest to be overcome. Depending on uke's determination and complete obstinance to the fact that nage can attack him at will in any pinning position, which basically translates well to police work. Uke here generally disregards the officers ability to trash him during a pin because of potential law suits.

The 2nd two are ideal methods that does not force uke into anything and in fact puts him against himself. Some other arts do get very similar here... I'm thinking certain Silat can lock up even multiple opponents without dynamic intervention... But thenthey don't explain the secret very well.

You listed very high level categories. Could you add specific principles for each of them?

graham christian 11-24-2011 09:42 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298055)
There is a quite amount of techniques in aikido that in the end contain pinning. I'm interested in your opinions what the characteristic of effective pinning in aikido are. Are they the same as in other Budo arts or fighting sports?

Recently I watched in TV how police in different towns evacuated protesters from parks, and sometimes it was needed up to 5 police officers to pin and transport one protester (who of course didn't want to gladly cooperate). In this light, how you see claims that in aikido you can pin somebody with one finger (or even one hand).

Again, please no IP/IS nonsens discussion here.

Basically I would say they share a lot with other arts ways of pinning. Aikido can focus more on the energy though.

I don't need t'v' to see such things as you mention but we most remeber something here. Practice, refinement, more practice, more refinement, a process. You could say that first when learning pins it's the how to's and practice but what does it show? It shows it's possible.

Then when you come across a more uncooperative person and find you need to improve you then have to practice more and refine it more, and on and on. Until you may become an expert at pinning, a master at pinning where it doesn't matter how uncooperative the opponent is. It's all a process and the same in any walk of life.

So someone in Aikido who is that good could make it look easy obviously.

Your final question on one finger, as per Tohei maybe in the old american documentary. Well you would have to lower your parameters on the thread for that one now wouldn't you. It's not something the average joe can do and would venture into the deeper Ki aspects at least or even into the field of pressure points in another art maybe.

Regards.G.

NagaBaba 11-25-2011 07:28 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Graham,
I'm expecting here very technical discussion, not only some very high level divagations.
Lets start with goals to direct discussion in right directions. Once the goals are defined we can establich the right training methods to achieve these goals.

What are the goals of pinning in aikido?

SeiserL 11-25-2011 07:38 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Drill the shoulder into the mat.

Mary Eastland 11-25-2011 07:40 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
The goal of pinning is to extend in a relaxed manner so uke can not get up. Uke should feel unable to move because they can't find the rest of their body to get up with.

Eric in Denver 11-25-2011 07:45 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298140)

What are the goals of pinning in aikido?

One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.

Dazzler 11-25-2011 08:07 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Eric DesMarais wrote: (Post 298147)
One approach I have heard is that the goal of the pins is to stretch and increase strength in the ligaments and tendons as opposed to restraining.

THOSE ARE INTERNAL...I INSIST THIS POST BE BANNED !!:eek:

although I admit to thinking the same....:)

Tim Ruijs 11-25-2011 08:31 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote: (Post 298153)
THOSE ARE INTERNAL...I INSIST THIS POST BE BANNED !!:eek:

although I admit to thinking the same....:)

They can become external if pushed far enough ;)

Demetrio Cereijo 11-25-2011 08:31 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

hughrbeyer 11-25-2011 08:52 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 298143)
Uke should feel unable to move because they can't find the rest of their body to get up with.

Nice description.

Mark Freeman 11-25-2011 10:49 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 298158)
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

42;)

ChrisHein 11-25-2011 11:40 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Aikido pins are not very secure from the physical/mechanical standpoint. That is to say, using only your body to apply an Aikido style pin is not very effective. However if you add the addition of a weapon, the pins have a very high level of security.

Aikido pins are of the type where one can easily apply the pin and still hold a weapon. Further the pins found in Aikido do a very good job of keeping the person you are pinning from using any potential weapons they may have. Further, Aikido pins are done in a way that allows nage to leave the pin rather quickly. Which is of paramount importance if one is facing multiple attackers.

While Aikido pins do lack the physical control found in many unarmed grappling styles, they do offer many advantages that wouldn't be found in their unarmed grappling counterpart: ability to control and use your weapon, ability to keep the person you are pinning from using their weapons while they are in your pin, and ease of escape for nage if something changes.

Basia Halliop 11-25-2011 11:48 AM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Recently I watched in TV how police in different towns evacuated protesters from parks, and sometimes it was needed up to 5 police officers to pin and transport one protester (who of course didn't want to gladly cooperate)
I don't have a very deep understanding of this but it's such an interesting discussion I'll join anyway :).

I haven't worked as a police officer, but I wonder if it's partly because they will be blamed if they injure people, and people under arrest even when pinned often keep struggling against the pins in ways that will easily injure themselves? Either because the person arrested consciously decides they are willing to get injured, or because (from lack of experience or from adrenaline) they don't realize they're going to be injured, or because they are in a kind of animalistic state of mind where they respond to pain or to being 'trapped' by fighting harder?

With more police it looks like they can overwhelm them so entirely that they can't even move enough to struggle.

So I don't know, if my theory is right, does that mean if the police weren't concerned about injury, does that mean the people could get away if there were fewer officers? Or does it 'just' mean that they would likely end up injured but they still couldn't escape? Or maybe even one police officer could do it safely most of the time, but not 100% of the time, and there's no reason not be more sure and add more police since they're there?

Or is it because a person being arrested usually doesn't give a committed attack :) (half joking, but maybe not entirely - it does sees different to try to pin someone who's just standing there).

graham christian 11-25-2011 12:21 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298140)
Graham,
I'm expecting here very technical discussion, not only some very high level divagations.
Lets start with goals to direct discussion in right directions. Once the goals are defined we can establich the right training methods to achieve these goals.

What are the goals of pinning in aikido?

O.k. The goals pretty obvious isn't it? To immobilize.

Regards.G.

Mario Tobias 11-25-2011 01:03 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
for the ikkyo pin, as long as the palm is upturned (facing opposite the mat) it is gravity that's preventing uke from getting up. even with minimal contact (eg tegatana cutting ukes inside elbow, no 2 hands grabbing) uke cant get up. you need to prevent uke to turn his palm down.

in order to prevent uke from sliding away, the pin is also just slightly above 90 degrees with a slight bent in uke's elbow, the arm shouldnt totally be straight. one knee in the rib cage or shoulder pocket and the other in the arm.

If you get all the above details right I think you can use one or 2 fingers pushing in ukes inside elbow for control....I havnt tried it but I think it'll work given that I use only one tegatana, again if all the above criteria are met since you only help to make the conditions ripe for gravity to work its wonders. You as nage are only a small part in the pin.

For the other pins, it is more about uke damaging himself more if he tries to look for a release. case in point is the sankyo where nage makes a standing sankyo, uke tries to approach nage but damages himself more even if nage does nothing. This true for other pins as well.

mathewjgano 11-25-2011 01:13 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Mine is a low-level understanding, but when I think of principles of pinning, I think of entering through and adding to some localized hyper-extention until it affects the whole structure as much as possible; while running into an imoveable object (the ground or something extending from it).
Like others with more experience, I also see pinning as a great conditioning tool. In the past, good pins have corrected musculoskeletal problems, making me much more flexible; with greater range of motion and power delivery. Good pins and throws seem to have a way of showing me where my tension is located, helping my ukemi in general.
My tuppence.
Take care,
Matt

Mario Tobias 11-25-2011 01:23 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 298055)
...... In this light, how you see claims that in aikido you can pin somebody with one finger (or even one hand).

Again, please no IP/IS nonsens discussion here.

I would'nt be surprised by this. The one finger I saw on youtube was tohei sensei pinning a person the finger pinning the persons temple. I havnt tried this but it is not you that is doing the work but gravity, you are only a helper, a part of the equation but not the complete solution.

Another good example is endo sensei. in his ikkyo pin, he doesnt grab anything. he just puts light pressure on the elbow. he even lets uke try to get up and times the contact in putting pressure again to offbalance uke to pin him again. this is concrete example that ukes opponent is not nage but mostly gravity.

Michael Hackett 11-25-2011 02:19 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
You see multiple police officers trying to subdue a resisting suspect frequently. A part of that was already mentioned in that having additional officers often reduces the chance of the suspect or arresting officer from being injured. A well-trained officer can usually restrain a resisting suspect by himself, but if additional help is present, why take the chance? The comedian Ron White tells a story about being thrown out of a NYC bar one evening by five bouncers. He said he didn't know how many it was going to take to kick his ass, but he knew how many they were going to use.

mathewjgano 11-25-2011 03:18 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 298177)
Mine is a low-level understanding, but when I think of principles of pinning, I think of entering through and adding to some localized hyper-extention until it affects the whole structure as much as possible; while running into an imoveable object (the ground or something extending from it).
Like others with more experience, I also see pinning as a great conditioning tool. In the past, good pins have corrected musculoskeletal problems, making me much more flexible; with greater range of motion and power delivery. Good pins and throws seem to have a way of showing me where my tension is located, helping my ukemi in general.
My tuppence.
Take care,
Matt

I'd like to add: the more spread out "uke's" structure, the less pressure is needed to control it. If they're very hyper/over-extened, it's easier to use "one finger" to pin. My understanding, though, is that many one-finger pins are actually closer to being palm pins with the index finger extended (using "yonkyo knuckle").
I think part of the problem many of the officers have (I'm only guessing; from what I've seen in video) is that they're trying to force a restraining technique too soon and they rely on brute strength to over-power. They often seem to use some immobilization technique and then try to pick them up with it to move them...which seems hard against someone who is "dead-weighting." I would think it better to roll them over, cuff'em, then lift one arm while another officer lifts the other.
Not that this doesn't happen too...just thinking of the few videos I've seen.

Eric in Denver 11-25-2011 03:37 PM

Re: Principles of pinning
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote: (Post 298153)
THOSE ARE INTERNAL...I INSIST THIS POST BE BANNED !!:eek:

although I admit to thinking the same....:)

No, that is not internal, it is inside. The two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. It has nothing to do with in yo, fire and water, movement within stillness, or six directions.

I am strictly referring to the physical benefits of a good stretch, something that is found in a variety of Eastern and Western external training methods.

While I have felt IHTBF (It Had to Be Felt), ICDI (I Can't Do It).:p


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:27 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.