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Old 09-27-2011, 10:47 AM   #51
DH
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Missing my point. Why am I not surprised...

If you study waterfalls, you will become acquainted with power, whether power is your reason for studying them or not. Likewise with aiki.

Of course, I guess I'm making a brash assumption that those who study aikido are in fact interested in understanding aiki. But if you're not, maybe you should call your art something else.

Katherine
Sometimes I think your mind is like a laser.....

Aikido people rarely encounter Aiki. For many, they don't know what it is, how to manifest it, and what power has to do with it. The understanding they have of power is totally western and that is why you see many of them noodle, evade, and essentially run away from contact. There are quite a few videos here of people almost afraid to use their arms because all they do is resist and use muscle when they do. Essentially they have no idea what the hell Ueshiba was even talking about.

Real power, that will last, is soft and exists in duality in a way alien to them. In fact it is the lack of understanding of sustaining and manifesting duality, that is at the heart of their constant failure. When they cannot access you, cannot put force into you, their every move and weight shift reveals their feet, their center and they are exposed, then they finally listen. These things require power of a type and in way that is of a higher level than they have experienced. And at it's core that type of power has nothing to do with Power Proud™ that power, is different than aiki.

Quote:
Of course, I guess I'm making a brash assumption that those who study aikido are in fact interested in understanding aiki. But if you're not, maybe you should call your art something else
.
The crew in Seattle was imitating what some people act like... laughing and putting their fingers in their ears and going La La La.......
All I know is that in person with the Aikido-ka I keep meeting. All debate ends...in person. Pretty much the internet is the only safe haven for people to theorize and feel what they do works equally to someone who actually trains aiki. As time goes by they are going to have to avoid more and more of the Aikido-ka who are actually training the way that we now know O sensei was talking about.
All the best
Dan
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:53 AM   #52
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Oh the beauty of semantics. Allow me to clarify. That codition or state of affairs or position people call power I do not.

That means I do not give that same thing that label.

Now if someone wants to assume I am saying that condition is not there then they are sadly mistaken.

The differentiation of power being different to power proud I like. That should get some differentiating.

I merely ask people to throw away that word and then they may be surprised at what they learn.

If I throw someone across the dojo with one finger and they say that was power I say no it wasn't.

Now here is another perspective to chew on for anyone interested.

If a person can do something , lets say lift a bus with one finger to be be nice and ridiculous, then others may say that shows great power. However if he can do it every time at ease the to him it is just normal, it's nothing.

Thus I don't use the word power, plus it is a word ego just loves.

Regards,G.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:32 AM   #53
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Oh the beauty of semantics. Allow me to clarify. That codition or state of affairs or position people call power I do not.

That means I do not give that same thing that label.

.
maybe you should publish a dictionary of your terminology and their meanings so that you don't have to explain/justify every time folks questioning your usage of various terms.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:44 AM   #54
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Spiritual Power

Semantics demand proper context. When context is not clear to readers that causes discussion where one should not really be required. Allthough sometimes playing around with words will provide insight (hence your remark on not using the word power).

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:17 AM   #55
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Semantics demand proper context. When context is not clear to readers that causes discussion where one should not really be required. Allthough sometimes playing around with words will provide insight (hence your remark on not using the word power).
Unfortunately communicating with the written word live on a forum will always be 'not understood' or misconstrued by some so the fact that context is king doesn't mean it won't lead to others saying they don't understand or having opposing views.

Behind what anyone says on here is a viewpoint. A point from which they are viewing. So rather than assuming people are stupid and need to learn how to transmit better with words, for I'm sure the writers know that, it is more a matter of responsibility of the reader to duplicate the viewpoint and then agree or disagree or discuss.

Thus responsibility lies once again on both sides of the coin.

Any good teacher knows this. I merely present an understanding.

Some get it right away, some don't. Thus I put the understanding into another context. It's normal procedure rather than right or wrong or indeed playing with words.

Then we come to the important bits of what is being said. You can acknowledge them or dismiss them and thus be off track on the topic.

In this thread the important points were the use of the word power and that needs context in itself. Then the point of ego loves the concept of power. Then the point that you can throw away the word altogether and learn something. The central point being that spiritually, transcending the normal view, power takes on altogether a different meaning and for me the word itself dissappears.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:29 AM   #56
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Re: Spiritual Power

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

Katherine
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:47 AM   #57
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

Katherine
Precisely my point, well done. I understand the words and then I look at the viewpoint from where they are coming. For there lies the key to my understanding.

I see no attempt to relate to the topic or thread in a constructive manner. No more, no less.

G.
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Old 09-28-2011, 10:44 AM   #58
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Here is one Shihans example of not using power. He doesn't emphasize using power but rather removing his own power. Once again a person may wonder what he means.

http://youtu.be/GzWWz7h4Vu4

Regards.G.
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:06 AM   #59
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Here is one Shihans example of not using power. He doesn't emphasize using power but rather removing his own power. Once again a person may wonder what he means.

http://youtu.be/GzWWz7h4Vu4

Regards.G.
That's Stanley Pranin's voice by the way.
What he is doing is very simple and easy to explain, Graham. Anyone who can do that can explain it in simple terms that require no spiritual understanding whatsoever. Since you claim to understand them...........

Of course the million dollar question is why are these teachers not teaching it? That stuff is baby steps and should have been explained sixty years ago so that the students moved on and demanded more.
And you still don't understand what power means. You're continually thinking of it in sports or Western thinking and not in Japanese or Chinese sense of power.
Dan
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Old 09-28-2011, 12:38 PM   #60
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Re: Spiritual Power

I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:01 PM   #61
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.
But what *is* "correct feeling," exactly?

There are also some actions that are inherently incompatible with "correct feeling." If your movement patterns are correct, there are some things that you simply won't try.

Katherine
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:27 PM   #62
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That's Stanley Pranin's voice by the way.
What he is doing is very simple and easy to explain, Graham. Anyone who can do that can explain it in simple terms that require no spiritual understanding whatsoever. Since you claim to understand them...........

Of course the million dollar question is why are these teachers not teaching it? That stuff is baby steps and should have been explained sixty years ago so that the students moved on and demanded more.
And you still don't understand what power means. You're continually thinking of it in sports or Western thinking and not in Japanese or Chinese sense of power.
Dan
Dan. He explained it his way. No doubt you can explain it your way. I can explain it my way.

As far as with no spiritual understanding whatsoever then I that point I couldn't disagree more. On the video he relates it to spiritual so at least that's two of us.

I fail to see how you believe I think of power in western or sports terms but there you go. This thread is all about letting go of such western and sports views of power.

As far as japanese sense of such I have much understanding. Now more to the point on this thread I am giving my view not based on what anyone else says be they western, eastern or alien.

The million dollar question.... Ah now you have my interest. I have assumed that in the Hombu Dojo for example it would be standard. It appears maybe I was wrong but that's maybe.

More importantly though is Over the years that same question began to form for me. Do you think because I don't shout about it then I don't question why many don't understand more?

How many Aikidoka have I met over thirty years? How many fellow martial artists have I met and trained with or helped? How many in life situations have I entered with handled with Aikido in that time? But how many could do what I do? Not many. Thus for me a million dollar question it was but is no more. For I have nothing to prove and plenty to offer.

I still would like to see more teachers like in the video though as would you, I think.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:33 PM   #63
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.
I quite agree. Along with saying shihonage done one way is wrong. But I do give him the right to for he is merely showing his way and his view about which for me there is much to admire.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:28 PM   #64
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But what *is* "correct feeling," exactly?

There are also some actions that are inherently incompatible with "correct feeling." If your movement patterns are correct, there are some things that you simply won't try.

Katherine
When you have you know it.
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:44 PM   #65
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I don't like that he says this works and this doesn't on the video. Any technique works if you have correct feeling.
But not every technique would have "correct feeling", right? So even then you would say that there is a right way and a wrong way to express a technique, right?

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-28-2011, 03:59 PM   #66
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
When you have you know it.
No doubt. But that's not very helpful for the student.

Katherine
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:06 PM   #67
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
No doubt. But that's not very helpful for the student.

Katherine
Chuckle...I do hope it is helpful to my students.
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:07 PM   #68
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
But not every technique would have "correct feeling", right? So even then you would say that there is a right way and a wrong way to express a technique, right?

Best,

Chris
My goal is to have every technique have correct feeling with every uke in every situation...
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:11 PM   #69
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
My goal is to have every technique have correct feeling with every uke in every situation...
So...you want every technique to be "correct", right? So why is it wrong to say that a technique is "incorrect"? "Correct" feeling implies "incorrect" feeling, doesn't it?

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-28-2011, 05:27 PM   #70
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Re: Spiritual Power

In a general way...yet a teacher that says this technique is wrong and my way is right makes me uncomfortable. I think correct feeling can be achieved with both techniques.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:46 PM   #71
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
In a general way...yet a teacher that says this technique is wrong and my way is right makes me uncomfortable. I think correct feeling can be achieved with both techniques.
Ahh. Just got back from training. Mary I get where your coming from and totally agree. In fact I love that concept come discipline.

Tonight was a night of drills. 4 hrs.of drills. They included aikitaiso exercises while someone is holding you or trying to stop you. The aim is to be able to do them anyway no matter what and just keep flowing.

Then drills on doing any technique as one motion. Drilling the concept of one. Any failure means you went into more than one. A fine drill. May I say that when you see what you are going to do as merely one motion, no matter how many parts it has to it, you feel correct feeling.

Then drills on zanshin. An excellent night if I say so myself.

A nice side joke here too. Just when you have been talking about power along comes a friend bringing a fiend of theirs asking if he could experience what we were doing. In walks a man mountain wanting to know what this non power was all about just out of interest. Ha, ha. Great fun.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:24 AM   #72
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Re: Spiritual Power

@Mary
Every technique just is. Sure you can evaluate on different aspects and find room for improvement. But nothing you do can ever change the technique you just did. When you think "Oh I know this technique" it is only the first sign that you are in trouble. This only kills your Aikido. Beginner's mind...you know nothing attitude....

@Graham
What do you think is 'spiritual power'? You have explained why you think somethings are not:
Quote:
I have seen explanations based on many different things discussed but all boil down to superior something that in turn therefore can dominate by choice the less superior. Whether it be through better skills, better education, better .....well whatever.
Spiritual power is (e.g.) the ability to enjoy yourself, be determined, be aware, reflective and compassionate.
Working on this type of character traits requires change of self...

Another spiritual approach my teacher always tells:
Before executing a technique open your self to the cosmic KI, let it flow in, blend it with the KI of you partner. When the technique fails, you clearly have not opened yourself to KI enough.
and then he smiles sarcasticly...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:18 AM   #73
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Re: Spiritual Power

We are like light bulbs connected on the cosmic fairy lights, interconnected and interdependent. Spiritual power is just being the brightest bulb you can be.

Last edited by gates : 09-29-2011 at 03:22 AM.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-29-2011, 06:17 AM   #74
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
@Mary
Every technique just is. Sure you can evaluate on different aspects and find room for improvement. But nothing you do can ever change the technique you just did. When you think "Oh I know this technique" it is only the first sign that you are in trouble. This only kills your Aikido. Beginner's mind...you know nothing attitude....

@Graham
What do you think is 'spiritual power'? You have explained why you think somethings are not:

Spiritual power is (e.g.) the ability to enjoy yourself, be determined, be aware, reflective and compassionate.
Working on this type of character traits requires change of self...

Another spiritual approach my teacher always tells:
Before executing a technique open your self to the cosmic KI, let it flow in, blend it with the KI of you partner. When the technique fails, you clearly have not opened yourself to KI enough.
and then he smiles sarcasticly...
Hi Tim.
Let's start with this; I am saying throw the word away, don't use it. The fact that people find it so hard to do itself shows me all I need to see.

O.K. Having said that I'll expand on why. One definition would be to do with the position of Authority, that would be called a position of power. People often say 'if I was in charge I would........ Thus they believe it's a desired thing. Thus they equate it with responsibility. They even equate it with superiority. But they have never questioned it.

Political parties want to get into power etc etc. Do you think that's normal? Do you think that is even wise?

Well her's the thing. If you remove that word and look beyond it you will see there are things preferable or even vitally necessary and far more important to that position of power or Authority and that my friend is ability.

Ability is the word and concept to aim for rather than power. How many political parties or groups or individuals get into a position of power and authority and yet don't have the ability to make things better and thus only make them worse. Yet they cling on to power and it becomes more important to them than their own life and unfortunately usually the lives of others.

So that's a glimpse into that reason.

Now let's go scientific. All physics definitions to do with power are to do with capacity. Well here's the silly thing when it comes to personal desires for power and that is we all have the capacity already. Therefore it's a really stupid goal to have. Thinking the problem in martial arts is that you need more power is thus a fallacy, it's creating a problem that isn't there for having the capacity to do, to handle etc. is already there.

The problem once again is ability and the way to gain ability is study and practice so there is a path to ability.

Now I havn't even mentioned another thing called wisdom here but maybe that's for another day.

So now to your question of spiritual power. We all once again have spiritual potential, spiritual capacity and in fact your spiritual capacity is infinite.

To understand this or rather to transmit that understanding I would use the physical area or subject of energy as an entrance point for such understanding. Thus in Aikido I would get the student to focus on energy. That person attacking you or holding you is to be seen from the viewpoint of energy rather than a physical mass.

A tsuki for example is energy coming at you in a straight line. A shomen is coming at you in a straight line, it's cutting through straight through your centre line. On the other hand a yokomen or a right hook or a roundhouse kick etc is energy coming at you in a circular fashion, on a circular line.

Then there is the focus of energy towards and through you which can be represented by the triangle. So you see here I am relating energy motions and the looking at the from the view of geometry.

Why? Because it will lead a person to understand better what they are actually dealing with and meant to be harmonizing with. Secondly it is leading a person towards principles of energy and those principles are the vital factor necessary to understanding.

Now if you were to enter the field of structural engineering you will find they deal especially with the principles of energy. The preferred pathways of energy.

Therein lies the key to understanding. Energy follows certain paths of which there are not many actually so when you try to block someone or insist on energy going a certain way you would be defeating yourself or at least making it a thousand times harder by ignoring or attempting to ignore these principles of energy motion.

Now note the word principles. Truths. The basic laws that energy follows in motion.

Learn these well, become able to recognize them and know them,and see how the apply to all motions and techniques and then you will know a great deal about Aikido.

The funny thing is that spiritual energy or Ki follows the self same principles. So if you were to study that and practice that and get to a level of ableness, ability, where you are in tune with and operating from those principles comfortably the that would be spiritual power. But by then it would be just normal to you and nothing really to you and thus power would be a word used by others.

So there you are. I hope you're still awake. Ha, ha.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:18 AM   #75
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Re: Spiritual Power

@ Tim: Who said anything about the technique that just happened...that technique is history.
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