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Old 07-25-2011, 12:20 PM   #26
rob_liberti
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Re: Aiki

Search for DR aiki, or Harden, or Sigman, or Center, or Hara, etc.. you will find it here. I read a lot of good points in a recent internals v athleticism thread.

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:57 PM   #27
dps
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Mehner wrote: View Post
Pardon me, I'm a beginner that really knows next to nothing looking for clarification. Didn't O' Sensei say that he meant something different when he said "aiki"? I thought that his aiki was similar, but different from the aiki concept in "internal arts" like what we call aikijutsu or the Korean hapkido.
Interesting article on chi (ki) and relates to aiki as well.

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0201.htm

Epilogue

I am not in a position to give the definitive answer as to which framework is the "true" one for chi, and the only conclusion I will put forward is that:

Chi as life force is the most widespread and traditional explanation.
Chi as biomechanics is the most provable explanation from a scientific perspective.
And, regrettably, ignorance is the most common use of the term.

So, whenever considering the word, one is reminded of Humpty Dumpty’s comment in Through the Looking Glass: "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that’s all."




dps

Last edited by dps : 07-25-2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:41 PM   #28
Lee Salzman
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Interesting article on chi (ki) and relates to aiki as well.

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0201.htm

Epilogue

I am not in a position to give the definitive answer as to which framework is the "true" one for chi, and the only conclusion I will put forward is that:

Chi as life force is the most widespread and traditional explanation.
Chi as biomechanics is the most provable explanation from a scientific perspective.
And, regrettably, ignorance is the most common use of the term.

So, whenever considering the word, one is reminded of Humpty Dumpty's comment in Through the Looking Glass: "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that's all."

dps
That article addresses ki, but does nothing to answer what is aiki, which is not just ki. So what is aiki?
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:09 PM   #29
Andrew Prochnow
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Re: Aiki

Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet.


Andrew Prochnow
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Old 07-27-2011, 01:22 AM   #30
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
... Watanabe Sensei ...
I read that his German students have published a book of photographs and sayings of his, in three languages. Do you know how any of us over here can get a copy?
I sent you PM.
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Old 07-27-2011, 08:06 AM   #31
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote: View Post
Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet.

Andrew Prochnow
Hey,

I really like what you wrote here only except I would replace Aiki with Ki in all places except in the last sentence.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 07-27-2011, 11:15 AM   #32
Jon Haas
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hey,

I really like what you wrote here only except I would replace Aiki with Ki in all places except in the last sentence.
Lorel,

Considering the source, I'd leave what Andy said exactly as he said it.

Jon

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Old 07-27-2011, 11:46 AM   #33
gregstec
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Jon Haas wrote: View Post
Lorel,

Considering the source, I'd leave what Andy said exactly as he said it.

Jon
To Jon and Lorel,

I can see where Lorel is coming from in his statement, and I have a good idea where Andy is coming from as well IMO, Andy's statement can stand on its own as is - however, I think the use of the word ki could be used as in the the following sentences because ki is an integral component required for developing aiki.

"Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the ki/Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables ki/Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the ki/Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet."

Aiki is definitely the word to use in the first and last sentences, however, ki could be substituted for aiki in the second, third, and fourth sentences - all depends on the context of the point you are trying to get across. IMO, with Andy's message, I think Aiki is the word for all.

Greg
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:33 PM   #34
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
To Jon and Lorel,

I can see where Lorel is coming from in his statement, and I have a good idea where Andy is coming from as well IMO, Andy's statement can stand on its own as is - however, I think the use of the word ki could be used as in the the following sentences because ki is an integral component required for developing aiki.

"Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself. Structure gives the ki/Aiki a clear pathway to follow. Relaxation enables ki/Aiki to travel through that structure. Intent is what fuels the ki/Aiki in the body. When one comes into contact with one who has trained their body. Aiki is what is seen when the two meet."

Aiki is definitely the word to use in the first and last sentences, however, ki could be substituted for aiki in the second, third, and fourth sentences - all depends on the context of the point you are trying to get across. IMO, with Andy's message, I think Aiki is the word for all.

Greg
This.

And I'm sure Andrew has more skills and can fight better than I can and knows what he is talking about (sometimes language can't be as precise though ), I just don't want to be confused on the terms as I learned it .

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 07-27-2011, 11:39 PM   #35
DH
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
This.
I'm sure Andrew has more skills and can fight better than I can and knows what he is talking about
Oh good God.
A giant
a soft giant
a tuned soft giant
Brought up in jujutsu and aiki
A soldier
An MMA guy
Hell I don't like fighting him!!

Quote:
(sometimes language can't be as precise though ), I just don't want to be confused on the terms as I learned it .
All I'm gonna say is some people think of power or ki as all-out or all-in.
Power is not best worked that way. There is a way to have both inside the body at all times, to balance aiki, (in- yo), in yourself. Aiki in you.

When they contact you:
Their ki meets your in yo ho, your aiki and then it is kuzushi on contact and there is instantaneous absorption, redirection, leading away and power out all at once. This is done though spiral energy.
It works in every fighting platform, works in every weapons form seamlessly and without change. It is a superior state for the body for martial arts.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:15 AM   #36
Lee Salzman
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
All I'm gonna say is some people think of power or ki as all-out or all-in.
Power is not best worked that way. There is a way to have both inside the body at all times, to balance aiki, (in- yo), in yourself. Aiki in you.

When they contact you:
Their ki meets your in yo ho, your aiki and then it is kuzushi on contact and there is instantaneous absorption, redirection, leading away and power out all at once. This is done though spiral energy.
It works in every fighting platform, works in every weapons form seamlessly and without change. It is a superior state for the body for martial arts.

Cheers
Dan
So is ki, literally or figuratively, a platform or coathanger on which to hang aiki, or is ki just entirely a distraction from training aiki?
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Old 07-28-2011, 05:35 AM   #37
RonRagusa
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote: View Post
Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself.
Keep One Point

Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote: View Post
Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow.
Correct Posture

Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote: View Post
Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure.
Progressive Relaxation

Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote: View Post
Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body.
Positive Mind

Thanks Andrew. That was a wonderful description of the four principles that I was first taught when I began my Aikido study and continue to emphasize today in both my teaching and training.

Best,

Ron

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Old 07-28-2011, 06:19 AM   #38
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Oh good God.
A giant
a soft giant
a tuned soft giant
Brought up in jujutsu and aiki
A soldier
An MMA guy
Hell I don't like fighting him!!

All I'm gonna say is some people think of power or ki as all-out or all-in.
Power is not best worked that way. There is a way to have both inside the body at all times, to balance aiki, (in- yo), in yourself. Aiki in you.

When they contact you:
Their ki meets your in yo ho, your aiki and then it is kuzushi on contact and there is instantaneous absorption, redirection, leading away and power out all at once. This is done though spiral energy.
It works in every fighting platform, works in every weapons form seamlessly and without change. It is a superior state for the body for martial arts.

Cheers
Dan
Very interesting Dan, I'm gonna have to meet you to get a feel of what you're saying. I have been out of touch with a teacher for a long ass time now .

And this guy is one of yours eh? LOL

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:10 AM   #39
DH
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Very interesting Dan, I'm gonna have to meet you to get a feel of what you're saying. I have been out of touch with a teacher for a long ass time now .

And this guy is one of yours eh? LOL
Hi Lorel
Andy has trained with me for 18 years. Most people who visit are very impressed with his skill and knowledge.
I have been thinking of going to Canada, who knows
Dan
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:38 AM   #40
DH
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Re: Aiki

Hi Ron
To clear up a few things:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:

Aiki is the result of one training their own body to be in unision with itself.
You wrote: Keep One Point.
Yes and no. Its more complicated than that.
Quote:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:

Structure gives the Aiki a clear pathway to follow.
You wrote: Correct Posture
No. Structure is independant of posture. I routinely demonstrate a hype fluid body movement; including bending over backwards that retains all of the qualites of Toheis principles. Learning posture and to settle is a good beginners step, there's just more to it than that.

Quote:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Relaxation enables Aiki to travel through that structure.
You wrote: Progressive Relaxation
I won't comment other than to say I have seen you move, until I feel you I will refrain from comparing what we do to your stuff. I will say that actively using the arms as extensions of hara in a clean way is not something I have seen often, and going after the hips usually reveals hips as tight as shoulders, making it relatively easy to throw people.

Quote:
Quote:
Andrew Prochnow wrote:
Intent is what fuels the Aiki in the body.
You wrote: Positive Mind
Well, I haven't seen anyone from Ki society use "positive mind" actively and fluidly like we use intent but I remain open. Could be the players lack and not the rule.

Quote:
Thanks Andrew. That was a wonderful description of the four principles that I was first taught when I began my Aikido study and continue to emphasize today in both my teaching and training.
Best,
Ron
Now isn't that interesting? I think that is a very good start. Have you ever wondered if there is more?
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:59 AM   #41
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Lorel
Andy has trained with me for 18 years. Most people who visit are very impressed with his skill and knowledge.
I have been thinking of going to Canada, who knows
Dan
When I go back to Toronto, I will probably take a train down to Boston. Haven't hit up Stateside in a minute.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:28 AM   #42
DH
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Re: Aiki

I should have included noodle arms and empty, evasive hips as well as stiff arms and hips. Its all the same to me...failure in understanding.
Dan
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:49 AM   #43
RonRagusa
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Ron
To clear up a few things:

You wrote: Keep One Point.
Yes and no. Its more complicated than that.

You wrote: Correct Posture
No. Structure is independant of posture. I routinely demonstrate a hype fluid body movement; including bending over backwards that retains all of the qualites of Toheis principles. Learning posture and to settle is a good beginners step, there's just more to it than that.

You wrote: Progressive Relaxation
I won't comment other than to say I have seen you move, until I feel you I will refrain from comparing what we do to your stuff. I will say that actively using the arms as extensions of hara in a clean way is not something I have seen often, and going after the hips usually reveals hips as tight as shoulders, making it relatively easy to throw people.

Quote:

You wrote: Positive Mind
Well, I haven't seen anyone from Ki society use "positive mind" actively and fluidly like we use intent but I remain open. Could be the players lack and not the rule.

Now isn't that interesting? I think that is a very good start. Have you ever wondered if there is more?
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan -

Reading Andrew's post evoked in me the comparisons with the four principles I posted in my reply. The four principles are distillations of ideas that are more complex than the few words used to relate them. They're intended to be easily internalized metaphors for the feelings we develop during training. Andrew's concise descriptions seemed to coincide nicely with how I have come to view the principles.

Regarding structure, Maruyama sensei always reminded us that correct posture is independent of the body's configuration and that we should train to remain stable and balanced no matter how we were positioned. I call correct posture the coordination of external and internal postures to create a stable structure no matter the positioning.

I can't speak for Ki Society folks. While my Aikido roots go back to Tohei thru Maruyama, I've been an independent practitioner since 2001.

More? There's always more.

Best,

Ron

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Old 07-28-2011, 12:15 PM   #44
Gary David
 
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Dan -

Reading Andrew's post evoked in me the comparisons with the four principles I posted in my reply. The four principles are distillations of ideas that are more complex than the few words used to relate them. They're intended to be easily internalized metaphors for the feelings we develop during training. Andrew's concise descriptions seemed to coincide nicely with how I have come to view the principles.
Ron
The issue for me has never been that the four principles were not descriptions of complex and very useful ideas, rather that the few words to relate them to the general population didn't provide much. The exercises used to connect these ideas to how the body mind worked and worked together were not very helpful either. I remember having graded individuals working us with exercises that I am only now seeing had value, only have value when trained in ways that include having all the blue prints, drawings, reference notes, change drawings, comments, peer reviews, interaction with folks that actually have the skills....all of it. What we got was a picture of the airplane and maybe a ride in it.

My roots go back to Tohei Sensei through my first instructor Harry Ishisaka. Tohei Sensei was in our dojo several times a year during the '70s. We had plenty of the big time guys from Hawaii in the area several times a year. We had folks who spent plenty of individual time with Tohei Sensei when he was here on the west coast........ out of this came none of the solo training details that are starting to come to the forefront now. And the reality being what it is, few of us ever had the drive, willingness or the perceptive skills to steal anything from anyone else...or even thought we could or should. Just waza waza waza..... and I have the beat up body to show for it.....

Now is a fun time....more are needed to get involved with the search.....

Just go straight......
Gary
(facilitator, instigator, and useful idiot).
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:30 PM   #45
DH
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Re: Aiki

Thanks Gary
It's hard to talk about these things. I applaud the model, but when I keep meeting the players...well...they're very nice people.

There's nothing to say until we meet, then...one by one....
Hey..it's all good,
We're exploring Aiki...together...finally. yeah! I think Ueshiba would be jumping up and down coming to train and laughing with us!
Dan
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:38 PM   #46
RonRagusa
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Ron
The issue for me has never been that the four principles were not descriptions of complex and very useful ideas, rather that the few words to relate them to the general population didn't provide much. The exercises used to connect these ideas to how the body mind worked and worked together were not very helpful either. I remember having graded individuals working us with exercises that I am only now seeing had value, only have value when trained in ways that include having all the blue prints, drawings, reference notes, change drawings, comments, peer reviews, interaction with folks that actually have the skills....all of it. What we got was a picture of the airplane and maybe a ride in it.
Hi Gary -

I was fortunate when I started training in that Sensei always tied the theory and ideas back to physically feeling what was going on inside as we trained. So when he would tell me to keep one point and then test me by pushing on me he would always have me examine how I felt. Increasing pressure and varying the nature of the applied stress allowed me to become familiar with the different ways I could respond to applied force. When I started to realize the nature of correct feeling as it related to how I felt, I began to see that the phrase was an invocation to call forth the feeling. It's the model I continue to use today in teaching and training.

I think that "Ki testing" is an unfortunate phrase to use in describing the internal work we do. "Exercising Ki", of which Ki testing is only a part, is more accurate in my opinion.

Best,

Ron

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Old 07-29-2011, 04:26 AM   #47
rob_liberti
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I've gone beyond that myself. Now, I just send the uke out on the mat, and I throw him with my mind from my house.
Check it out, and be jealous of my powers...
http://youtu.be/7nbwxQWQyX4

(The poor uke doesn't even know it's me doing that to him. He thinks he is just fooling around.)

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:39 AM   #48
gregstec
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Check it out, and be jealous of my powers...
http://youtu.be/7nbwxQWQyX4

(The poor uke doesn't even know it's me doing that to him. He thinks he is just fooling around.)
That guy needs to find some friends - oh, maybe he does have friends and they are all called Harvey

Greg
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:56 AM   #49
DH
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Re: Aiki

More stuff of equal worth.
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