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Old 07-21-2011, 07:21 PM   #1
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Aiki

A present from me for those interested. You may like it or not and you may have a good discussion about it or not. Promise I won't say a word.

Scouts honour!

http://youtu.be/StBJkGgNxNU

Regards.G.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:59 PM   #2
DH
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Re: Aiki

Of equal worth
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:46 PM   #3
stan baker
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Re: Aiki

amazing
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:29 PM   #4
gregstec
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
A present from me for those interested. You may like it or not and you may have a good discussion about it or not. Promise I won't say a word.

Scouts honour!

http://youtu.be/StBJkGgNxNU

Regards.G.
Kind of reminded me of a political speech - a lot of noise with half truths and really nothing of definitive substance being said

Greg
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:41 PM   #5
hughrbeyer
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Re: Aiki

So, I'll ask the stupid questions.

Who were those guys? What was their background? Dan, I'd value your opinion of what they were saying. I didn't hear anything I thought was wrong as such. What am I missing?

As for your video, Dan, I think this is pretty much irrefutable proof that Aikido is stronger even than in the Founder's day. You certainly never saw O-Sensei doing anything like this.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:08 PM   #6
DH
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Re: Aiki

Hi Hugh
Felt one, watched the other. They are of equal worth to me. Beyond that I have nothing to say.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:30 PM   #7
hughrbeyer
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Re: Aiki

I've certainly no interest in pushing you to criticize folks in an open forum. I was more interested in how they talked about aiki.

Who are they anyway? The YouTube doesn't say.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:55 PM   #8
DH
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I've certainly no interest in pushing you to criticize folks in an open forum. I was more interested in how they talked about aiki.

Who are they anyway? The YouTube doesn't say.
The first guy is Kondo; Menkyo Kaiden of the mainline of Daito ryu and his brother. "How they talked about aiki?" ...is the reason I googled "no touch aiki in aikido" and grabbed the first thing I got for comparison. I don't know who he is and I don't think it matters much. Their work is of equal value.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:11 AM   #9
David Orange
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The first guy is Kondo; Menkyo Kaiden of the mainline of Daito ryu and his brother. "How they talked about aiki?" ...is the reason I googled "no touch aiki in aikido" and grabbed the first thing I got for comparison. I don't know who he is and I don't think it matters much. Their work is of equal value.
Cheers
Dan
Dan,

Of course, you know I've never met either of them but I didn't get that they were talking about no-touch aiki.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:46 AM   #10
Budd
 
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Re: Aiki

This thread made me giggle. There, I said it. It's late and I should be in bed.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:17 AM   #11
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... grabbed the first thing I got for comparison. I don't know who he is ...Dan
Well my teacher practiced with Watanabe sensei.
It is quite amazing. He can show how it works and if you know how it is done, it seems very simple ...
If not, it seems to be cheating.
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:45 AM   #12
sakumeikan
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Re: Aiki

Hi,
I watchedGrahams vid. link on You tube.In case anybody missed this, the other parts of the interviews with these men are also on You tube. Cheers, Joe
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Old 07-22-2011, 06:21 PM   #13
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
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Re: Aiki

Hi Carsten,
Thanks for your post about Watanabe Sensei. Thanks, Graham, I am having trouble with my dial up computer but will try again later, also with the other videos people posted.

I took Watanabe Sensei's regular class I think it was Saturdays, and also the Sunday class. To practice Sunday it cost a little extra but for those of us who attended, it was well worth it.
This was many years ago at Hombu Dojo. Several weeks ago I was able to catch another video which played in stops and starts, slowly, then the replay was normal speed. It looked like a further development of the regular style he had back in the mid seventies. I think it is a valuable part of Aikido, for those interested in that way of training, although many say it looks fake. It has certainly caused a lot of controversy on Aiki Web.

We didn't talk to him much in Japan, but a few times there was a translator available. I read that his German students have published a book of photographs and sayings of his, in three languages. Do you know how any of us over here can get a copy?
My friends and I are very interested, also that he is a doctor of osteopathy. The notice on Aikido Journal says that his ideas of Aikido are very broad and far reaching in scope.

Thanks again, and we hope you might have information on the book.
Sincerely, Diana
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:29 PM   #14
stan baker
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Re: Aiki

Regarding Watanabe sensei,
much a do about nothing, would sum it up.
people are fooled so easily

stan
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:52 PM   #15
rob_liberti
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Re: Aiki

I've gone beyond that myself. Now, I just send the uke out on the mat, and I throw him with my mind from my house.

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 07-23-2011, 02:53 AM   #16
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aiki

Everytime I look at Kondo, I see a tall, unbalanced, stiff guy doing impractical jujutsu.

No offense to those who might be studying with Kondo-san.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:48 AM   #17
gregstec
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I've gone beyond that myself. Now, I just send the uke out on the mat, and I throw him with my mind from my house.
I do you one better - I just did a kokyu Nage on you from the internet - post back when you get up off the floor

Greg
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:16 AM   #18
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I do you one better - I just did a kokyu Nage on you from the internet - post back when you get up off the floor

Greg
Damn! Greg, you missed him and knocked my mojito over !

Marc

ps- thankfully, my mint patch is doing well this summer, plenty of fresh mint for the next round.....
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:27 PM   #19
gregstec
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Damn! Greg, you missed him and knocked my mojito over !

Marc

ps- thankfully, my mint patch is doing well this summer, plenty of fresh mint for the next round.....
Oops - alcohol abuse, again
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:35 PM   #20
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Aiki

Of equal worth. I like it and will save it for future use.
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:26 PM   #21
DH
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Of equal worth. I like it and will save it for future use.
Hi Mark
It's only useful if you know what I meant. Which few apparently did.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:54 AM   #22
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
I took Watanabe Sensei's regular class I think it was Saturdays, ...
Yes if I remember right, it was on Saturday that my teacher took Watanabe senseis class.
This caused him a decision when another teacher of hombu invited him to his private class which was also held on saturdays in the dojo of this teacher. This is why I remember the day ...

Quote:
This was many years ago at Hombu Dojo.
My teacher returned from Japan 1995 I think.

Quote:
I read that his German students have published a book of photographs and sayings of his, in three languages. Do you know how any of us over here can get a copy?
My teacher is not a "student" of Watanabe sensei. But I will ask him. And I know one of the "real" students of sensei who invite him to Germany evey year and will also ask him.
But: I never heard of this book or project. (And I am better in reading about than in performing aikido. ... ) I will watch out.
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:50 PM   #23
rob_liberti
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Re: Aiki

The word aiki....

The founder of aikido was using what the word aiki meant to people like him - people that could actually do DR aiki to some degree.

I am not hearing great tales of Kondo sensei's abilities, or of the current Doshu's abilities - so I don't care what their rank or position is. Honestly, I'm simply not very interested in their opinion on that subject.

We get into these cyber fights because we love our martial arts. We identify our hard work in what we have done with our own training.

In several ways, I was just like the folks who are ego attached to how right their ki society abilities are or the folks who feel how just-as-good their athleticism is. I understand why someone would get all bent out of shape hearing the folks who train IP/IS claiming that internal-training methodology leads to the real aiki and that the vast majority of the folks are far off track despite all of their hard effort.

When I first started really arguing with Mike Sigman I felt he was overstepping his bounds to judge the power of aikido from a Chinese perspective. But, I later apologized because he was right. I don't think we will ever be "besties" but regardless, the main point is that I understand how it feels to have people say what you are doing is not right on - or even close. It is a terrible blow to the ego and self esteem.

I laughed when I read a thread about how the IP/IS folks are trying to hijack the word "aiki". Isn't obvious that the proponents of IP/IS ALSO love our martial art(s) perspective too, because we have put in the same amount of time (okay, often much, much, more time and energy). Isn't it possible we just want the word BACK?

When I learned about IP/IS just a little I felt VERY betrayed. I love aiki so much.

I kind of feel like the word aiki was stolen from the people who were actually doing internals, and I really want the word to mean what it used to mean to the founder of the art I love so much.

And if not, then I would almost like to come up with a new word to distinguish what I do (internally based) from what is normally/typically displayed as aiki (externally based with various small aspects of some correct principles that more hide the fundamental failures like a crutch).

Also, there is a second issue. I hate the whole hero worship thing. So many people have this hero-worship thing going on. Deep down, they wan to be worshiped in the way that they worshiped their big teachers. Hearing that what you are doing and what your teacher was doing was wrong, really threatens the whole worship dreams. I know, I know, not -YOU-, but you know many people this applies to... If you want to be admired, please be admired for going out and really finding aiki and then giving it to other people while making people feel very uncomfortable about the whole mystique thing. (We are better than this!)

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:56 PM   #24
David Orange
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
The word aiki....

The founder of aikido was using what the word aiki meant to people like him - people that could actually do DR aiki to some degree.

....In several ways, I was just like the folks who are ego attached to how right their ki society abilities are or the folks who feel how just-as-good their athleticism is. I understand why someone would get all bent out of shape hearing the folks who train IP/IS claiming that internal-training methodology leads to the real aiki and that the vast majority of the folks are far off track despite all of their hard effort.
That was my experience.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
When I first started really arguing with Mike Sigman I felt he was overstepping his bounds to judge the power of aikido from a Chinese perspective. But, I later apologized because he was right. I don't think we will ever be "besties" but regardless, the main point is that I understand how it feels to have people say what you are doing is not right on - or even close. It is a terrible blow to the ego and self esteem.
That was my experience.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I laughed when I read a thread about how the IP/IS folks are trying to hijack the word "aiki". Isn't obvious that the proponents of IP/IS ALSO love our martial art(s) perspective too, because we have put in the same amount of time (okay, often much, much, more time and energy). Isn't it possible we just want the word BACK?
I think that's it. And tai chi wants its art back from people who tell you "Tai chi used to be a martial art...."

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
When I learned about IP/IS just a little I felt VERY betrayed. I love aiki so much.
That was my experience.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I kind of feel like the word aiki was stolen from the people who were actually doing internals, and I really want the word to mean what it used to mean to the founder of the art I love so much.
And to see it hijacked by people who can't even do the outer appearance well, much less the inner essence...

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Also, there is a second issue. I hate the whole hero worship thing. So many people have this hero-worship thing going on. Deep down, they wan to be worshiped in the way that they worshiped their big teachers. Hearing that what you are doing and what your teacher was doing was wrong, really threatens the whole worship dreams. I know, I know, not -YOU-, but you know many people this applies to... If you want to be admired, please be admired for going out and really finding aiki and then giving it to other people while making people feel very uncomfortable about the whole mystique thing. (We are better than this!)
I think you're overstepping your bounds here. I see nothing wrong with the hero worship thing. It's the American dream, isn't it? "All I want is a little cult of my own..."


David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:20 PM   #25
Benjamin Mehner
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Re: Aiki

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
The word aiki....

The founder of aikido was using what the word aiki meant to people like him - people that could actually do DR aiki to some degree.
Pardon me, I'm a beginner that really knows next to nothing looking for clarification. Didn't O' Sensei say that he meant something different when he said "aiki"? I thought that his aiki was similar, but different from the aiki concept in "internal arts" like what we call aikijutsu or the Korean hapkido.

Let silence be my mantra.
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