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Old 01-22-2011, 09:30 AM   #26
"dontwanttousemyname"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Personally I think saying this was a mistake. You're pretty much never going to gain another person's respect by telling them they should respect you...at best it makes no difference, but more often it lowers their respect for you.

IMO, use the opportunity to figure out how to deal with a large unwieldy opponent, don't worry so much about 'teaching' him how to do his part if he's not receptive or not appearing to find your advice helpful, when you get into that situation ask Sensei for help dealing with a large opponent who moves this way (if Sensei feels the need he'll show the uke something too), and otherwise just train with him, unless you feel unsafe or feel that he is going to get hurt. And especially, don't waste your time worrying whether your partner respects you or not.
At this point I've moved forward. What is interesting here is that many did not notice a thinly vailed threat spoken. I've decided not to train with him, until his attitude changes. I've discussed it with two sensei's in the dojo. Both believe that I handled it well and they will keep an eye on him for the next few weeks. Threats don't go well in our world. Threats are not appropriate.

Thank you to everyone who offered insight.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:34 AM   #27
RED
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Hi Maggie - it's frustrating because the time this man takes to talk nonsense, is less time we have to train. You are absolutely right about Ukemi. When I train with sempai, I never complain...They generally know what kind of falls I'm better at, or worse at. They don't try to hurt me and I respect their bodies as well. It's always the new students who come in rough and rugged and full of bravado...I did too, when I first started. I didn't know any better and I got offended if someone tried to tell me. It wasn't until I trained regularly and seriously that I began to understand what people tried to tell me. Thankfully, they were gracious to me and accepted my apologies when I presented them.
Honestly, all the injuries I've withstood in Aikido was from low kyu ranks.

MM
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:51 PM   #28
Eric in Denver
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Eva Röben wrote: View Post

it happens that there are some newbies giving me advice about what I'm doing wrong
Perhaps it is because my aikido sucks, but if even a newbie can point out something I am doing wrong, I figure it must be a pretty obvious mistake on my part. I have gotten some really good advice from people who are lower ranked than I but are much stronger regarding how to get a technique to work on them. I sometimes even work with them on the break between classes to see if I can figure out what I need to improve on. Sometimes they are wrong, but a lot of times they know why they didn't fall and are more than happy to share their "expertise."

YMMV

Eric
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:35 PM   #29
Basia Halliop
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Sometimes it's hard to tell just from a description of the words if there's a threat implied, as it's often something about how it's said as much as what is said... You're the one there, and if you get a sense that someone's threatening you or trying to intimidate you, in that case certainly I agree that talking to your sensei and avoiding the person for now sounds like a sensible thing to do...
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:54 PM   #30
danielajames
 
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Sometimes just taking ukemi for the duratiion s a good solution. You get some dedicated time to work on this aspect, and time lost to argy bargy is minimized. And maybe they pickup what ukemi and being uke is all about , or not. In any case u move on to next partner.

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:44 PM   #31
gates
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

I think it is down to the instructor to make sure that everybody in the class understands the purpose of the grading system and maintains proper etiquette.

We have been told on occasions:

"Do it as your sempai shows you, even if you know it is wrong"
"Do not talk back to, or question your sempai"

I maintain this philosophy no matter which dojo I am in. I will always do the technique as the instructor showed first. If the sempai corrects me, even if it is clearly different than Sensei demonstrated then I follow their instruction. Sometimes Sensei will then come over and correct you, at which point you do not say "I knew that.." or some other smart arse comment", you just bow and say "Hai Sensei, Domo Arigato", these are lessons in patience, humility, and manors. Something that this 5th kyu sounds like he needs more than a good Iriminage.

The instructor needs to set/maintain the standard for the reigi (etiquette) in the Dojo.

Last edited by gates : 01-22-2011 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:12 AM   #32
"Doc B"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

I can't stress enough the importance of conflict resolution in predispositional relationships in domestic environments. It happens every day we must co-exit with others, strangers different from us. At work, the dojo, or school. Being brought together under volunteer circumstances we are required to function and interact together if we are to maintant any type of status or recognition . Because of our backgrounds and personal experiences, we set visable and invisible bountries with individuals we barely know or want to know, or understand. We don't lend to communicating effectively as it poses personal risk and volunerablity. Our personal backgrounds and experiences not disclosed in these enviroments (where we don't feel personally safe, where we don't feel secure) become powerful hanicaps to interpersonal skills and relationships. We don't move forward to resovle personal conflict, over-coming the interference of predispositional elements we harbor in dealing with people.

Both individuals have failed to communicate effectively to reduce conflict instead of inciting more intense conflict in a domestic environment. Changing the predispositional view of these two individuals, taking another angle on the current relationship and how to move it productively forward for the purpose of a positive and porductive training relationship, is vital to each individual. It is also vital to the other particiapants in the dojo and their dojo experience. The benefits of changing our predisposition are psychol in relation to the purpose of being a part of the environment, and the goal of being an erudite practitioner in the art of Aikido. No other goal or purpose should exist.

Not only do you live your ego at the door, but everything else.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:33 AM   #33
"dontwanttousemyname"
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Lightbulb Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I can't stress enough the importance of conflict resolution in predispositional relationships in domestic environments. It happens every day we must co-exit with others, strangers different from us. At work, the dojo, or school. Being brought together under volunteer circumstances we are required to function and interact together if we are to maintant any type of status or recognition . Because of our backgrounds and personal experiences, we set visable and invisible bountries with individuals we barely know or want to know, or understand. We don't lend to communicating effectively as it poses personal risk and volunerablity. Our personal backgrounds and experiences not disclosed in these enviroments (where we don't feel personally safe, where we don't feel secure) become powerful hanicaps to interpersonal skills and relationships. We don't move forward to resovle personal conflict, over-coming the interference of predispositional elements we harbor in dealing with people.

Both individuals have failed to communicate effectively to reduce conflict instead of inciting more intense conflict in a domestic environment. Changing the predispositional view of these two individuals, taking another angle on the current relationship and how to move it productively forward for the purpose of a positive and porductive training relationship, is vital to each individual. It is also vital to the other particiapants in the dojo and their dojo experience. The benefits of changing our predisposition are psychol in relation to the purpose of being a part of the environment, and the goal of being an erudite practitioner in the art of Aikido. No other goal or purpose should exist.

Not only do you live your ego at the door, but everything else.
Again, I am very appreciative to read the thoughts of everyone.

When we are training, remember, come into the dojo a "whole human being", with whatever that means to a person. Just because we practice aikido doesn't mean that we stop being human. We bring our strengths and weakness with us and we train with that. Our mindset, or perspective dictate where we go with our training. Free will...It's easy to get "super spiritual" and esoteric about how we need to "seize" this or that opportunity. The simple fact is that we are humans and we do the things that humans do. Until the spirit and the mind is open to a new way of being, we remain in a constant struggle against our weakness and the weakness of others as it impedes on our respective environment.

It is easy to say "both" failed, etc. etc....The simple fact of the matter is that there is an order to the dojo that is there that can protect us and provide structure for learning. I went through my paces until I EARNED my rank.

I would say to all who look to go to another level, you don't lower yourself to someone else's nonsense. You maintain the standard and move forward. It's up to the student to do the necessary. Period. O'Sensei would not stop "communicate". He did the technique and that was that. The students either applied themselves, their attitudes and their spirits or they didn't.

I trained today, had great training. Just as I suspected 5th kyu instructor said some things, didn't do some things and go harshly corrected by the Aikido teacher. This is only the beginning. Because even then, he "knew" what he was doing and was not open to what was taught to him....

He is on one path and I am on another.

Again, I appreciate what others have to say. But, at the end of the day, this is a Martial Art...Due care should be taken and training should be serious and enlightening....And when someone steps out of line, there needs to be an immediate correction. Hopefully by the sensei, as some have stated here.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:31 AM   #34
Basia Halliop
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
"Do it as your sempai shows you, even if you know it is wrong"
"Do not talk back to, or question your sempai"
I would really hate to train in a dojo that made that an actual rule and where sempais felt they were justified in 'correcting' me for not giving them enough 'respect'.

Real respect is _earned_. If someone keeps giving good helpful advice, if I can see by their example that I want to be able to do what they can do, I will quickly learn to listen to their advice - and it won't be because I was told they're my senior so I have to.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 01-23-2011 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:44 AM   #35
gates
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I would really hate to train in a dojo that made that an actual rule and where sempais felt they were justified in 'correcting' me for not giving them enough 'respect'.

Real respect is _earned_. If someone keeps giving good advice, I will quickly learn to listen to their advice - and it won't be because I was told they're my senior so I have to.
Not sure but think you may have misunderstood the point. The respect should be there for your sempai from the get go. That way you don't get into a pickle, like 5th kyu's handing out advice to 2nd kyu's. This etiquette is inherent in the Japanese social hierarchical system. And although we are not Japanese nor are we attempting to become, it does lend itself to creating a well ordered and structured learning environment. Which is for the betterment of all deshi.

A sempai will not correct a student for not showing them respect, they don't have to, the instructor has taken care to ensure that everybody understands the correct etiquette from the get go.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:50 AM   #36
Basia Halliop
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

IMO, that's not respect you're talking about anymore, it's etiquette. Which is fine, I suppose, to say that this is just the way we do things, like bowing or something...

But you can't respect someone 'from the get-go'. You just don't know them well enough to respect or disrespect them... I suppose you can say you'll just follow the rules of precedence regardless.

But IMO, if the seniors are good technically and good teachers there isn't really any need.... It doesn't really take that long before new people start to respect them anyway.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:26 AM   #37
Eric in Denver
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Not sure but think you may have misunderstood the point. The respect should be there for your sempai from the get go. That way you don't get into a pickle, like 5th kyu's handing out advice to 2nd kyu's. This etiquette is inherent in the Japanese social hierarchical system. And although we are not Japanese nor are we attempting to become, it does lend itself to creating a well ordered and structured learning environment. Which is for the betterment of all deshi.

A sempai will not correct a student for not showing them respect, they don't have to, the instructor has taken care to ensure that everybody understands the correct etiquette from the get go.
Once again, I see nothing wrong with a 5th kyu giving advice to a "sempai"? If you have this person pinned for ikkyo, and it is loose enough for their shoulder to turn out of it, wouldn't you like them to let you know you need to move their arm that extra half inch?

In my mind, that slows down progress for both the sempai and the kohai. It would be great if one could wait for the instructor to come over and offer pointers, but honestly, if you have 6 pairs practicing on the matt, that isn't going to happen very often.

I would also argue that by encouraging our kohai to critique us, it encourages them to think critically about the techniques and not drift into that "if I just do it 50,000 times, it will somehow become good."

That being said, if one feels there is abuse on the matt, then it is important to talk to that person about it off the matt, and if that isn't effective, have a conversation with the dojo-cho about it.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:17 AM   #38
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Ha ha...you haven't met my missus Phil...
Ha ha..... ditto
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:54 AM   #39
"Doc B"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Again, I am very appreciative to read the thoughts of everyone.

Again, I appreciate what others have to say. But, at the end of the day, this is a Martial Art...Due care should be taken and training should be serious and enlightening....And when someone steps out of line, there needs to be an immediate correction. Hopefully by the sensei, as some have stated here.
I understand you feel your perspective is above reproach, and the onus falls on the other individual. Thus, you views and behavior is without fault; void of admonishment, or critique. It is the individual and their personal predisposition, and background creating experiences that formula individual expectations of behavior for the relationship and resulting individual behavior of both parties. Thereby dominating our perceptions of who is and isn't at fault. Resulting in the impedance to productive conflict resolution; applying to both parties involved.

Without objective circumspect of our own behavior and how it effects others and our environment, we can't objectively evaluate our own and that of others. Training can't be done alone to truly be benefitical. We must have mutual respect and tolerance of others, placing aside our judgements and expectations of others' and their behavior during training in the dojo.

We also must understand it is a Martial Art that lends itself to male stereotypes. As well as, both male and female low level controlled aggressive behavior. The cynosure of personal conflict comes from the same precipice found in most domestic relationships, the common power struggle. Amplified, not mentioned, gender expectations and prejudices.

When we understand that we are a whole human "beings" and how we effect other's and the environment we exist in, we can better navigate personal relationships towards a platform of an harmonious mutual training and understanding of ourselves and others.

Yes, both are at fault. I would like to point as well to the reponses given in the thread in the Anonymous forum titled, "is there another solution" where posters direct thoughtfully why both individuals are equally at fault and why. Very enlightening indeed.
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:05 AM   #40
RED
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I understand you feel your perspective is above reproach, and the onus falls on the other individual. Thus, you views and behavior is without fault; void of admonishment, or critique. It is the individual and their personal predisposition, and background creating experiences that formula individual expectations of behavior for the relationship and resulting individual behavior of both parties. Thereby dominating our perceptions of who is and isn't at fault. Resulting in the impedance to productive conflict resolution; applying to both parties involved.

Without objective circumspect of our own behavior and how it effects others and our environment, we can't objectively evaluate our own and that of others. Training can't be done alone to truly be benefitical. We must have mutual respect and tolerance of others, placing aside our judgements and expectations of others' and their behavior during training in the dojo.

We also must understand it is a Martial Art that lends itself to male stereotypes. As well as, both male and female low level controlled aggressive behavior. The cynosure of personal conflict comes from the same precipice found in most domestic relationships, the common power struggle. Amplified, not mentioned, gender expectations and prejudices.

When we understand that we are a whole human "beings" and how we effect other's and the environment we exist in, we can better navigate personal relationships towards a platform of an harmonious mutual training and understanding of ourselves and others.

Yes, both are at fault. I would like to point as well to the reponses given in the thread in the Anonymous forum titled, "is there another solution" where posters direct thoughtfully why both individuals are equally at fault and why. Very enlightening indeed.
I don't think the anonymous forum was created so you could rebut anonymous posters from hiding.

MM
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:01 AM   #41
kewms
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Empty your cup. Each encounter is new. Your prior training is irrelevant. All that matters is how you handle yourself in the here and now.

You cannot control how others behave. You can only control how you respond.

(Not that I am blameless in this regard, of course.)

Katherine
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Old 01-23-2011, 12:52 PM   #42
"Bartack"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

i don't see "Doc B" doing anything different than other posters posting to forum, responding to an anonymous Tamora of a thread. I see "Doc B" giving the same advice as you have RED on other threads similar to this. It's all good.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:15 PM   #43
RED
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
i don't see "Doc B" doing anything different than other posters posting to forum, responding to an anonymous Tamora of a thread. I see "Doc B" giving the same advice as you have RED on other threads similar to this. It's all good.
Sure, except I stood behind my statements, and have never used an anonymous post to rebut anyone.
It is an issue of integrity of the anonymous thread privileges. I think it is an abuse to make yourself secret in order to disagree.

MM
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:24 PM   #44
akiy
 
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Hi folks,

To address the issue of the "purpose" of the Anonymous forum, here is the post that i made a while back:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4325

Its pertinent section would be:
Quote:
I would like to remind people that the Anonymous forum is not intended for people who don't want to register but want to post -- it is intended for "delicate" subject matters for which people want to keep their identities from being revealed. I encourage people to keep this in mind before posting on the Anonymous forum as that purpose is not what this forum was created for.
So, unless what you are posting is "delicate" enough to warrant your needing to keep your identity anonymous, I would ask people to please register to post.

With that said, can we please turn the subject back to the topic itself?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 01-23-2011, 05:07 PM   #45
gates
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Eric DesMarais wrote: View Post
Once again, I see nothing wrong with a 5th kyu giving advice to a "sempai"?
I think that there is subtle but important difference between offering advice and giving feedback.

Everybody should give feedback sempai-kohai, kohai-sempai, what ever it doesn't matter. But what does matter is the nature and tone in which it is done in. My girlfriend a non Aikidoka once said, if people want your advice then they will ask for it. In the original post, the 5th kyu is not giving feedback they were giving unsolicited advice.

However giving feedback is a slightly different story honest feedback both physically and verbal is, as has been pointed out very critical to development of all parties. It can be done in such as way as that it is non threatening, non patronizing, and not rude. The true intent will be easily by a higher dan grade. When I offer feedback to my sempai, which I often do, I will normally start out by saying something along the lines of, "just to let you know" ... then I would move my arm as you describe. Or If i don't know them I just ask outright, "can I offer you some feedback". I have never had a sempai get annoyed at me for offering to offer feedback.

I also apply a similar approach when giving advice to kohai, I dont just say "do this" "dont do that", (except with absolute beginners) instead something along the lines of "Can I suggest you try doing it this way", "you are going really well, but have thought about...".

You are absolutely right people want and need feedback, but being mindful of the way to go about it is quite a skill, and again another useful skill we can learn/improve on the mat and apply in our every day lives.

Making a clear distinction between advice and feedback and how we go about doing it is critical. We should always be mindful of the other person state of mind and how they are going to react to what, and how, we say what we say to them.

Last edited by gates : 01-23-2011 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:46 PM   #46
Janet Rosen
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
I think that there is subtle but important difference between offering advice and giving feedback....
Making a clear distinction between advice and feedback and how we go about doing it is critical. We should always be mindful of the other person state of mind and how they are going to react to what, and how, we say what we say to them.
Darn good point!!!

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:52 PM   #47
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Darn good point!!!
Ditto!

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Old 01-24-2011, 02:54 PM   #48
"dontwanttousemyname"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Big ups for staying on point and addressing a significant part of my initial post.

Also to Jun, for the reminder to stay on topic.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:07 PM   #49
Eric in Denver
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
I think that there is subtle but important difference between offering advice and giving feedback.
I don't want to drift too far from the OP, but could you talk more to the distinction between offering advice and giving feedback? In my mind, the two are the same.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:10 PM   #50
Janet Rosen
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Eric DesMarais wrote: View Post
I don't want to drift too far from the OP, but could you talk more to the distinction between offering advice and giving feedback? In my mind, the two are the same.
Well why I agreed w/ him so strongly on this...
feedback is simply brief reporting on what I felt, murmuring to my partner (or him to me) "hey you had me but when you turned you disconnected" or "I'm tapping because of pain compliance - you don't have my center."
advice is delving into why it happened, how to correct it, etc.

Janet Rosen
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