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Old 01-20-2011, 09:45 PM   #1
"dontwanttousemyname"
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5th kyu shihans

Hey guys,

I need some advice. I am a woman training and i constantly come across these lower kyu men (usually just joined) who have absolutely NO idea as to what is going on. Of course they think they do AND not only do they complain about how I do the technique (i'm a second kyu), but they don't see what the instructor demonstrates AND they constantly try to tell me how to do the technique.

Today, we were SUPPOSED to do iriminage. These really large man, who is much stronger than I, did not follow properly (naturally didn't know how, because he just joined and is still learning) and complained about getting "clothes lined" and warned me not to do it again. I told him that he needed to learn how to follow. I'm not trying to hurt him, but he had to go with the movement. I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...at that point, I was just about to walk away from him, when the sensei changed the technique and we had to change partners. I really wanted to drop him, but naturally that is not the proper thing to do.

It's really working my nerves. Do you guys have any advice on how to deal with these people?
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:04 AM   #2
carina reinhardt
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Hi,
One of the points our Sensei repeats every time is: there is no bad uke, you must take a look at yourself beeing tori, you must improve yourself.. And I think there is too much complaining, speaking about levels just keep training and one day you will become a good tori and that large man will become a good uke
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:23 AM   #3
Eva Antonia
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Hi,

in our dojo or when I train abroad I don't have often something to do with 5th kyu shihans (being a 3rd kyu shihan myself... ). But it happens that there are some newbies giving me advice about what I'm doing wrong...we had it just yesterday that a technique (kokyu) did't work with a 5th kyu and myself, and she tried to explain me what she thought I was doing wrong. So what? If it didn't work then obviously I must have done something wrong - because if the teacher repeats the same thing with her, it does work.

Sure there are issues like "uke doesn't attack frankly enough" or "uke tries to walk out the technique when he should continue to attack" etc. etc. But then tori should be able to react to that, shouldn't he?

And then there is another issue - all these strong men can maybe make use of their weight and momentum on techniques like yokomen uchhi irimi nage...but whenever it comes to wrist twisting exercises I find them much more vulnerable than women or frailer men. So no need to get angry at them for being uncooperative at irimi nage, just wait when they have to pair up for sankyo.

Best regards,

Eva
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:10 AM   #4
philipsmith
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.

Hopefully they will learn - if not they will generally leave

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Hey guys,

. I really wanted to drop him, but naturally that is not the proper thing to do.

It's really working my nerves. Do you guys have any advice on how to deal with these people?
In this situation just drop him - generally that's a REALLY good lesson.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:15 AM   #5
carina reinhardt
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.

Hopefully they will learn - if not they will generally leave

In this situation just drop him - generally that's a REALLY good lesson.
You are very sensitive about women, that is a great advice
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:28 AM   #6
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.
.
Ha ha...you haven't met my missus Phil...
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:30 AM   #7
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to hurt him, but he had to go with the movement. I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...
Maybe you were being too careful? Do you think an effective iriminage would have broken him? And on the other hand, being clotheslined isn't pleasant. So it would have been reasonable for him to be a bit upset.

At nikyu I'd really expect that one can handle a beginner even if they are taking awkward ukemi. And if things go wrong have the sense to use it as an opportunity to improve ones technique.

So look back at what happened. Maybe you didn't have his balance from the start. Then that is a thing to work on. Or he tried to recover his balance in an unexpected direction. In that case you might have to do another technique.

A good way to handle this might have been to say: "I'm sorry, lets look at what happens there" or something along those lines. Then it becomes a cooperation of you two trying to figure out what is going on in the technique, instead of an argument about who is right and who's rank is higher.

Pauliina
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:36 AM   #8
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

You could look at why it was working on your nerves. Is it an opportunity to work on patience or tolerance?
Mary
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:49 AM   #9
RED
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

You are within your bounds to refuse to train with anyone who physically hurts you, or disrespects you.
However, I've dealt with the good old 5th kyu shihan syndrome. I know men who have the same complaint, so it breaches gender. But I understand how it is hard for a woman, being a woman. You have to pop your hips a little more and take ukemi faster. There are always be low ranked males waltzing in who will make you prove your rank to them. :/
I dealt with one male week 1 student(who no longer trains). I bowed to work with him, he refused me and said "I don't want to hit or throw a woman!" For a split second I was gonna accept his refusal, but then I got mad and told him "What makes you think you could pull off either in your first week?" I made him train.

In my region woman can wear hakama at an earlier stage than men. Men have to wait until black belt. I always feel bad for 1st kyu men at seminars, being told how to do something by 5th kyu shihan.

MM
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:23 AM   #10
lbb
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

It seems like the simplest and most effective thing to do, if a beginner is telling you to do something that doesn't meet with your understanding of how it is to be done, is to just say, "That's not how I understood it. Let's ask sensei to clarify," and then do just that.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:10 AM   #11
Mark Freeman
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
You could look at why it was working on your nerves. Is it an opportunity to work on patience or tolerance?
Mary
That's sound advice Mary.

I remember many times that I got frustrated with particular uke's, who either don't do what they are instructed to do, or make the exercise difficult to perform. It slowly dawned on me that I had more to learn from them, than with those who it was easy to practice with.

All practice is practice to work on ourselves, for our own benefit.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:25 AM   #12
Janet Rosen
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

First of all... DID you clothesline him? No matter how good or bad a newbie is at "following" (which to me smells of teaching collusion, much rather have them learn continuing attacking) one shouldn't be clotheslining folks. If so rather than argue who needs to learn or change, a simple "sorry, didn't mean to, let's keep training."
Or of course "onegaishimase!" to the instructor with appeal for help because WE are having problems on this technique.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 01-21-2011 at 10:28 AM.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:23 PM   #13
kewms
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Unfortunately a common problem almost always men wanting to tell women what to do.

Hopefully they will learn - if not they will generally leave

In this situation just drop him - generally that's a REALLY good lesson.
It helps to have female yudansha in the dojo. Having someone 4'11" and 100 lbs put them *through* the mat has a way of teaching even the big guys a little respect....

On the other hand, being attacked by someone much bigger makes a lot of people tense up. Which will of course cause your technique to not work. Which leads to clotheslining and all sorts of other unpleasant behavior on the part of nage.

Remember, it's not uke's fault that he's big and tense. Being big is just genetics, and being tense is just because he's new. Think of it as an opportunity to learn to deal with that kind of energy.

Katherine
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:13 PM   #14
RED
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post

Remember, it's not uke's fault that he's big and tense. Being big is just genetics, and being tense is just because he's new. Think of it as an opportunity to learn to deal with that kind of energy.
That's a really good point.
Some of the bigger, stiffer guys have taught me the most about going around force, leading, and extension. The heavy weights also made me learn to appreciate the art of the facial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0byR147UUjA )in randori.


For the OP's pleasure: http://www.aiki.rs/shihan_5kyu_e.htm

Last edited by RED : 01-21-2011 at 01:18 PM.

MM
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:10 PM   #15
"dontwanttousemyname"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Wow!

What a bunch of replys....cool!.

well, to answer a couple of good questions...To Janet, I did not clothesline him. But sometimes, iriminage is a clothesline if you don't follow. It could also be a smack in the nose/face by accident..And there are sensei's in the dojo who demonstrate the iriminage as a clothesline. you can clearly see the difference, though. My arm was arched and i hit him with the bend in my arm, not a forearm (which would be closer to a clothesline). I also move pretty slowly with while i first do a technique to get my movement together, and minimize the chance that i might injure someone with my awkwardness..

I am always careful to be respectful of those i try with, because i want them to keep training with me and give me respect. so i think to get respect, it's good to begin with giving it.

Another question and suggestion was to get the instructor involved. i did that with another technique, because he was going to "show" me what sensei did. So we called him over and he showed him the same thing i did....we continued to train.

I agree with one of the responses that there is too much talking during training. I came up with hardcore, old school instructors. we didn't do a lot of talking. AND if one of the larger (more muscular, not fat) men started intimidating the women, the other guys would step in. They also showed us women how to protect ourselves against these kind of people. But I don't want to go that route.

I don't teach people. I let the sensei do that, I like to train and figure it out as we go along. The movement can reveal itself through repetition and good instruction from a good sensei, of which i am not. BUT on the other hand, sometimes, your training partner has experience in other things and can make good suggestions that help.

AND yes, there is too much complaining during training too..I was quite surprised that this "tough" guy complained. But on the other hand, I thought that maybe in his mind, he was restraining himself from "retaliating"..

I'll see him again next week, when i'm on the mat and i'm not going to train with him. my training time is precious to me and it's generally a peaceful time for me. I want it to stay that way. There are people in the dojo who will retaliate if he hurts me, I don't want that, so I'm walking away for a while.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:13 PM   #16
"dontwanttousemyname"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Also remember, it's his attitude that was the issue, not his physique..
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:33 PM   #17
Shadowfax
 
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

You are his senior. Therefore it is up to you to adjust down to his level and prevent him from hurting himself while he learns how to take proper ukemi. If this keeps happening ask your sensei to show you what you can do in order to improve matters. In the process sensei will most likely use him to demonstrate to you. If this guys ukemi needs adjusting your sensei will be the one best suited to tell him so.

If I have a guy like this below my rank I adjust down and do the above. Usually I find out it is indeed myself that requires an adjustment. Not my junior. If the guy is my rank or above I might cut him some slack at first but once we have worked together a while if the attitude continues I just throw him hard a few times. (or in the case of one fellow, just scare the (*&^@ out of him with a bokken) Or I get my sensei to work with them, again by asking for help with MY problem. They usually get the point.

Sometimes the best thing to do is just nod and smile and say thank you and just keep training.

There have been a few guys in my dojo that I at first wanted to avoid training with over such issues. Now those same ones are the ones I grab first because they challenge me and I learn more from them. Avoiding training with someone who is difficult is not a solution unless he poses a real threat to your safety.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 01-21-2011 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:39 PM   #18
RED
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post

AND yes, there is too much complaining during training too..I was quite surprised that this "tough" guy complained. But on the other hand, I thought that maybe in his mind, he was restraining himself from "retaliating"..

I'll see him again next week, when i'm on the mat and i'm not going to train with him. my training time is precious to me and it's generally a peaceful time for me. I want it to stay that way. There are people in the dojo who will retaliate if he hurts me, I don't want that, so I'm walking away for a while.
In my experience, the biggest thing hurt in this guys type is his ego.

MM
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:25 PM   #19
kewms
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Also remember, it's his attitude that was the issue, not his physique..
The two go together. If you could throw him without difficulty, he wouldn't be inspired to tell you what you're doing "wrong:" he'd be too busy trying to avoid getting killed. If you could throw him without difficulty, you would probably also be less bothered by his remarks and could simply ignore him instead of posting here. (This is why you don't hear many complaints about small female 5th kyu shihans, even though they also exist.)

Katherine
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:39 PM   #20
"dontwanttousemyname"
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Wink Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
The two go together. If you could throw him without difficulty, he wouldn't be inspired to tell you what you're doing "wrong:" he'd be too busy trying to avoid getting killed. If you could throw him without difficulty, you would probably also be less bothered by his remarks and could simply ignore him instead of posting here. (This is why you don't hear many complaints about small female 5th kyu shihans, even though they also exist.)

Katherine
I did throw him, hence his complaint....lol. The first few times, he resisted and I let him go, and gave him some insight..his response: "I know, I know...". I said, Oh, okay..wonderful. Then he got thrown. Then when he tried to throw me, he couldn't do it the way he wanted to. The second time he tried to throw me, I let go to protect myself (katatetori). Then I Threw him.....

lol...
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:51 PM   #21
"dontwanttousemyname"
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Talking Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
You are within your bounds to refuse to train with anyone who physically hurts you, or disrespects you.
However, I've dealt with the good old 5th kyu shihan syndrome. I know men who have the same complaint, so it breaches gender. But I understand how it is hard for a woman, being a woman. You have to pop your hips a little more and take ukemi faster. There are always be low ranked males waltzing in who will make you prove your rank to them. :/
I dealt with one male week 1 student(who no longer trains). I bowed to work with him, he refused me and said "I don't want to hit or throw a woman!" For a split second I was gonna accept his refusal, but then I got mad and told him "What makes you think you could pull off either in your first week?" I made him train.

In my region woman can wear hakama at an earlier stage than men. Men have to wait until black belt. I always feel bad for 1st kyu men at seminars, being told how to do something by 5th kyu shihan.
Hi Maggie - it's frustrating because the time this man takes to talk nonsense, is less time we have to train. You are absolutely right about Ukemi. When I train with sempai, I never complain...They generally know what kind of falls I'm better at, or worse at. They don't try to hurt me and I respect their bodies as well. It's always the new students who come in rough and rugged and full of bravado...I did too, when I first started. I didn't know any better and I got offended if someone tried to tell me. It wasn't until I trained regularly and seriously that I began to understand what people tried to tell me. Thankfully, they were gracious to me and accepted my apologies when I presented them.
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:37 PM   #22
odudog
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

If he complains about being clothes lined again, just tell him that his ukemi is still too slow for your are already moving at a snails pace. One of my previous instructors loved to use me for demonstrating the technique and I learned really quick to go down fast for his iriminage was a clothes line.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:22 PM   #23
Mark Gibbons
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

One way beginners solicit feedback is to describe what they see going on. Sometimes that is frequently interpreted as telling their partner how wrong the partner is.

I've always disliked techniques that hit uke in the throat. They usually just piss off the uke. If you want them to continue training with you hitting them in the throat should be reserved for much more senior people. If you really have someone's balance you don't need the clothesline so why do it. It's not the beginner's problem for not following. Just my opinion.

Mark
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Old 01-21-2011, 11:52 PM   #24
"Love is Aikido"
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Having the ability to work with others is a great skill to have at any dojo. Regardless, of race, creed, color, or sex.

We need people to train with, learn from, and teach us. We can't do Aikido alone, we need a training partner. So when we enter the dojo, we must come in with the right attitude that we will be harmonious, we will demonstrate love in order to help us grow both in our personal lives and in the dojo. Love, an important precept hailed by O'Sensei, who imparted it to us had his conflicts and over came them with love and not violence (later in his life). If we are true to ourselves, and seriously sincere about Aikido and the Founder, we will overcome any personality and or petty differences within ourselves and between our fellow deshi.

Love is what makes Aikido very special and appealing. We all must exercise that love as being the greatest Aikido waza of all. If O'Sensei's dream is to material it should start in the dojo overcoming personal conflicts like prejudices, sexism (male and female), and hate. If we don't carry-on in a loving harmonious manner , and instead insist on maintain conflict and personal competition then we are not doing Aikido. We have failed. We are truly 1st kyus no matter what color cloth is tied our waist.

What goes around here with all the conflict and strife who have O'Sensei turn in his grave. We practice Aikido, and it should show.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:11 AM   #25
Basia Halliop
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Re: 5th kyu shihans

Quote:
I asked him his level and told him mine. To which of course he said, so what...
Personally I think saying this was a mistake. You're pretty much never going to gain another person's respect by telling them they should respect you...at best it makes no difference, but more often it lowers their respect for you.

IMO, use the opportunity to figure out how to deal with a large unwieldy opponent, don't worry so much about 'teaching' him how to do his part if he's not receptive or not appearing to find your advice helpful, when you get into that situation ask Sensei for help dealing with a large opponent who moves this way (if Sensei feels the need he'll show the uke something too), and otherwise just train with him, unless you feel unsafe or feel that he is going to get hurt. And especially, don't waste your time worrying whether your partner respects you or not.
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