Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Anonymous

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-12-2011, 10:16 AM   #1
"Reg"
IP Hash: 542bcc79
Anonymous User
Unhappy Is there another solution?

I feel, I should start with some background in order to get accurate advice. I am one of two senseis of a healthy sized dojo. Our students are mostly adults looking for a physical and mental activity that is a respite to the daily complications of their jobs and lives. We are not about ego, not to say there is no ego, we are fully aware our short comings. We don't have or allow personal issues to take center stage and distract the dojo. We are a place of learning and stress that. We are not a drama club. Important to know too is don't we think or teach that the sensei's are gods, super heros or know it alls, we are human. Our knowledge and skill is imperfect, then by default no one is put on a pedestal, no hero worship, no cultish dojo. It goes to reason, we know and teach, Aikido is not the next best thing to sliced bread. It has its strengths and weakness, like everything else. Nothing or anyone is perfect. We are not looking to put our dojo on the map. We are, to sum it up, happy to be a simple wall flower dojo. That mentality has brought the dojo respect and harmony in the community and in the dojo. That for us, is our goal and defines our success.

To get to the issue, knowing my background of my dojo, I recently went to a friend's Aikido class, not as a sensei. I went as a student. I went objectively, and in with a fraternal attitude. Wasn't there to bust the sensei's nuts. Didn't care to spent the whole time pointing out flaws of the dojo or students. The universal mistakes we all have in Aikido, like carrying our weight up in our chest instead down at our center, from which we should orientation movement. Something we learn and then forget to do overtime. It is easy to come into someone else's dojo and break them down. It is easy to point to out the minor faults in others and ignore the major faults you have in your own practice. I wasn't going there to do that. I went to expand my horizons.

Upon meeting the Sensei for the first time, it went off friendly. I was warmly greeted with a cordial welcoming onto the mat, that I graciously accepted. I was there to expand my experience and learn something. I changed and bow in. I stepped on the mat, bowing in wearing a white belt. Once we paired up, sensei Nice became sensei Adam Henry. It was on, he was busting my nuts right and left with personal insults and criticisms, right after he introduced me as I asked. I requested to be known as a student, and not a sensei from a different dojo. The moment the intro was over, he wasted no time pointing out to the class the most minor insignificant flaws in my technique and my poor understanding of Aikido; If I had perfect technique, I wouldn't need to go to the dojo to practice?

The verbal abuse graduated to physical. In his stacked deck of cards he was dealing out, he would set me up for a fall. He would tell the class to do a technique knowing full well, as I, the weakness in it. Following up in an abuse of his position as sensei, exploit that known weakness to his benefit. No matter how we stand there is always a lesser cross angle where we are less stable susceptible to a cross force. So, he had us individually do this exercise where we have to stand on line where one foot is in front of another foot behind it, inline. Same starting position when you are about to pace off steps, one foot in front of the other. Very difficult and awkward position, hard to stay balanced. The sensei told us to hold the position. In this position, we are highly susceptible to the slightest cross force coming off the bi-sectional or intersecting line. The solution is to move off that line, and avoid that position, but that wasn't the lesson.

Being this position for at least several minutes as he walked around inspecting the class, he comes to me. Which I suspected he would, and to capitalizes on my weak line with a force. He did just that. He applied force, causing me to losing my balance at that point, I shifted my weight and stepped of line into a natural balanced standing position regaining my balance. When he seen that, he instantly broadcasted that I failed his lesson by not withstanding the force he applied. Then with one last blow, he comment that he would never train at my dojo or style, as nothing of value is taught there. Keeping my emotions to myself, I didn't react to these and other insults at that point. I asked him politely and in a curiously manner if he could demonstrate how the exercise was done correctly? He bluntly ignored my request as he walked away to instruct a new technique that I suffered new insults. Needless to say, I got baited.

After class, he comes up to me all really nice and polite as if nothing he did was offensive. He asked me if I enjoyed the class and what did I learn? And did the class strengthen my techniques? He then invited us to dinner to chat it up. But, I was pissed. I had no intentions of play this game. My friend stood there as if this was par for the course. But my emotions as a result of this unpleasant experience took over.

I baited Adam Henry of a Sensei back on his mat. Having done Judo as a kid, I remember a few Shime wazas which I felt the need to brush up on. I said, humbly to Adam Henry sensei that I was having trouble knowing what to do when a person grabs my gi lapels from the front with two hands. Not being an ass, but in deference, asked for him for advice. He allowed me to grab his uniform in the manner I requested with two hands. The second that happened, I reset the paradigm to zero on him by applying a Tsukkomi jime. Yes, it was a teaching moment, and I hate crap like this when I am teaching. But, in my defense I proposed scenario, and requested advice, and he came off as a sensei to be able to handle it. I choked him out. Unintentionally, I haven't done the choke in years and I was piss off, and the adrenaline was flowing. My intent was to throw him off balance backward enough to where he would step back, exploiting the anatomy of the foot. At first I didn't realize the choke work so well on him. Neither did he. He didn't realize, he was out because I held him in place as he passed out for a few seconds. When he came to, after I loosed up on the choke, he proceeded to finish the lesson as if nothing happened. At that point, I let go completely his gi, and excused myself politely from the mat and left not honoring the dinner invitation. This episode was not in front of his other students, just my friend, his student. Granted knowing my background, my behavior was outside of what I represent as the sensei of my dojo, and the dojo's reputation. In my defense, I felt it was just.

Now am in hot water with the other sensei of my dojo, and my friend both whom didn't approve of me choking out my friend's instructor. It happened that push came to shove, that day, I shoved back. I was insulted. Adam Henry sensei humiliated he in his class to feed his ego. I am not saying this sensei had bad technique. The guy isn't bad sensei or anything to the contrary. I am saying what he did was poor behavior and bush-league. It is no way to treat a guest. A guest who came in friendship and an open mind.

Those facts of my experience aren't seen by my friend or the other sensei at my dojo. All they see is the recourse I took. Am now the bad guy in this situation. I know and understand the common protocol and etiquette it can be argued I didn't follow that. In hindsight, maybe I should of just did nothing and have quietly walked out, like they say I should have. Hindsight is 20/20. By the telling of my story, I might as well paint a bulls eye on my butt, I am asking for some feedback, was I wrong in my actions, or just? Was there another solution?
 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:34 AM   #2
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

I'd say well done and the "I reset the paradigm to zero on him" phrase is priceless.

 
Old 01-12-2011, 10:42 AM   #3
john.burn
 
john.burn's Avatar
Dojo: Chishin Dojo
Location: Coventry
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 180
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

I'd also say well done for being so restrained with the guy...

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 01-12-2011, 11:05 AM   #4
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 596
England
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
I'd also say well done for being so restrained with the guy...
I wouldn't worry what the ` others ` think, they will get over it.
You sound quite restrained to me.
It is important not to speak of it anymore, you have dealt with the situation in your own way, if you had done nothing, that would have bugged you for a long time.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
 
Old 01-12-2011, 11:32 AM   #5
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,198
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Yes...you could have dressed and left. His behavior does not excuse yours.
Mary
 
Old 01-12-2011, 12:05 PM   #6
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

I understand that feeling very well........
You used restraint.....
 
Old 01-12-2011, 12:22 PM   #7
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Aikidoka have a bad tendency to resort to passive-aggressive behaviors. I am a fan of making things overt. You could have talked out loud about how his friendliness degraded to the conduct that he was displaying in class. He would then have to directly comment on what his intentions were and you could make your decision to stay, leave, etc.. You simply responded in kind to what he did. You gave him a taste of his medicine (he set you up for failure and you did the same to him). I would simply describe what he did and what you did to those who want to know. In the end, you were human just like he was.

To me, the real issue is whether or not you have learned something about yourself so that this experience becomes part of future wisdom enacted.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 01-12-2011, 12:24 PM   #8
Dan Rubin
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 333
United_States
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Your friend witnessed it all, so why does he think your behavior was unjustified?

As for that host teacher's rude behavior, that sort of thing is noted by most students and costs him their respect.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 01:03 PM   #9
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

I think you could either have walked away after class and ignored his behaviour, or asked him about the difference between his behaviour on the mat and off.

IMO, you got sucked into his immature behaviour.

So personally, to me, I'd say he acted badly and then you acted badly in response (let your adrenaline get away with you and got engaged in what sounds like one-upping the guy, and copied his weirdly passive-aggressive style where you were both pretending to be engaged in learning and teaching but weren't really...).
 
Old 01-12-2011, 01:20 PM   #10
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Me says well done.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:05 PM   #11
"Reg"
IP Hash: 542bcc79
Anonymous User
Re: Is there another solution?

Wow, more responses then expected. I think too, I showed restraint.

Those who see it another way-
I didn't intend to choke him out. I wanted to rock him back on his heels a bit, he'd lose balance stepping back. I did play the same game. I felt pissed I was set up and he took advantage of the situation. I wanted him to see two can play the same game. I admit it was my ego kicking in. I understand I should have just ignored the game, and left. I get the criticism being said here. It is same type my friend and my fellow sensei tell me. But, I am not Gandhi.

That day, I made myself vulnerable. I went in under presumption of, and greeted as guest, not fodder for some guy's ego. I behaved, and was polite through the whole class. After class I stepped into his fight. He wasn't a nice guy, didn't handle himself or me properly. I agree if I didn't do something it would have bugged me. If I took it and walk away would cause me problems. I really don't think protesting in middle of class would have been the right move.

Thank you, everyone, I have a better perspective on it. I hope anyone can avoid situation like mine, where you are hi-jacked by those Adam Henry sensei. now to think of it, I should have done my homework on this Adam Henry of a sensei before I stepping into his place. Instead of relying on one source, my friend.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:12 PM   #12
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
But, I am not Gandhi.
You mean the guy who said: "I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully."?

 
Old 01-12-2011, 02:46 PM   #13
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,789
United_States
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Your friend witnessed it all, so why does he think your behavior was unjustified?
That's a mystery to me, as well. One possibility is that OP's friend simply didn't recognize the baiting behavior for what it was. Although it sure seems blatant to use after reading OP's version of events, even if it was that blatant, students who have only ever trained at one dojo may have drunk a lot of koolade, and bad koolade definitely affects the vision Soooo, if what OP's friend "saw" was just legitimate testing of OP's skills -- if OP's friend believes that his sensei's "tests" were legitimate and would be "passed" by a truly skilled practitioner -- then perhaps the friend came out with guns a-blazin' after the chokeout, and OP never had the chance to discuss matters.

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
As for that host teacher's rude behavior, that sort of thing is noted by most students and costs him their respect.
Yes -- this is true even if it may not seem that way at the time.

It sure sounds like an awkward situation. I mean, once you're on the mat, what do you do? It's not like walking out of a movie, it's...I don't know, almost more like you got invited to a dinner party, and then your host proceeded to insult you. In that situation, what would you do? Most of us would probably do what OP did: try to stick it out...and, probably, eventually, respond in a way that might have some negative repercussions.

It seems to me that that's what OP's concern is, primarily: how others are responding to his actions. But before you can really address that, you have to know for sure what you think the correct action was. You won't get that here, and while our opinions may be helpful, I think they'll be more helpful if we explain why we feel that way...but that's an aside. When you know what you think you should have done, and why, then you'll be ready to have the conversation with the people who are miffed at you now.
 
Old 01-12-2011, 03:04 PM   #14
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,136
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Wow, more responses then expected. I think too, I showed restraint.
What a nonsens.

You are simply stupid jerk. If you go to a dojo from different style, it is to be expected that you will suck in every detail. This is clearly quite normal situation, unless you have VERY high level.

I.e. if I go to for example: Yoshinkan or Tomiki dojo, I'll be complete beginner. Their pedagogical approach is very different and they will have all rights to correct every detail of my practice. In public, in front of everybody. I'd expect it. Only very traditional Japanese sensei will not say anything or will do it in private.

You put on white belt, wanted to be introduced as a student, but in reality you went there with a big head of high level instructor, that REQUIRES special respect and treatment. This is typical hypocrisy of many high ranking aikidoka that wear white belt again.

But the other instructor took everything literally and treated you as any other student that makes mistakes. That is why you got pissed off and got adrenaline shock. This is first point.

The second point is that your are hopeless and nothing can be done. If such trivial thing provoked you to the point loosing complete control on yourself, your behavior in any dangerous situation will be a real disaster. We can safely say time you spent on aikido training is for nothing.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
 
Old 01-12-2011, 05:09 PM   #15
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,129
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Reg,

Perhaps you did over-react. If YOU think you did, learn from it and behave differently next time. Henry Ellis Sensei gave you some sound advice about not concerning yourself with the opinions of others. If your actions were wrong, those who care about you will forgive you and those who don't won't be persuaded by anything you say or do.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
 
Old 01-12-2011, 05:18 PM   #16
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Perhaps you did over-react.
I don't think so. Over reacting would have been going medieval on Adam Henry Sensei in the middle of the class and in front of his students.

Quote:
Henry Ellis Sensei gave you some sound advice about not concerning yourself with the opinions of others. If your actions were wrong, those who care about you will forgive you and those who don't won't be persuaded by anything you say or do.
I agree with this.

 
Old 01-12-2011, 05:38 PM   #17
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,129
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Demetrio,

I personally don't think he over-reacted, but my opinion is as worthless as anyone else's, except his own. I might have handled it differently, and then again, maybe not. Being corrected in class would have been no problem for me, but I would have been offended at the comments concerning how worthless my dojo was. At that point, I probably would have respectfully bowed out of class and left. I'm confident that I wouldn't have remained for a second helping of discourtesy, but I'm a hardhead in many ways......

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:09 PM   #18
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I understand that feeling very well........
You used restraint.....
That's not restraint.
Restraint would be bowing out and dressing out. You can tell the Sensei, out of ear shot of his students, that his behavior was disrespectful to you, and then work it out like civil functional adults.

The loss of composure is always a failure of character, and is an obvious display of insecurity.

No one is perfect and we all get upset from time to time. But let's not lower our standards and accept the loss of composure as acceptable or even par.

Just my opinion. But disrespect should never be met with more disrespect.

One man's failure to his civil obligations does not release me from my responsibilities to civility.

Last edited by RED : 01-12-2011 at 09:13 PM.

MM
 
Old 01-12-2011, 09:51 PM   #19
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,934
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Maggie, I agree with you.
There is a difference between acting in self defense and acting out of revenge, hurt "honor", etc that to me indicate a loss of self-ccontrol.
Having said that, I'm not perfect either and I totally understand the temptation to indulge oneself in the moment. But the question being asked doesn't seem to me to be understanding but rightness and I have to come down on the side that says, Nope, not cool. Take the high road.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 01-13-2011, 12:51 AM   #20
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,167
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Once we paired up, sensei Nice became sensei Adam Henry. It was on, he was busting my nuts right and left with personal insults and criticisms, right after he introduced me as I asked.
Another solution.

Bow, thank Sensei, thank the class then leave.

David
 
Old 01-13-2011, 01:44 AM   #21
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Maggie, I agree with you.
There is a difference between acting in self defense and acting out of revenge, hurt "honor", etc that to me indicate a loss of self-control.
Where do you put righteous indignation, as self defense or as revenge?

 
Old 01-13-2011, 02:51 AM   #22
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
Israel
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Where do you put righteous indignation, as self defense or as revenge?
It is defenetly not self-defence.

It does not have to be revenge (in this case, I believe it was).

Amir
 
Old 01-13-2011, 06:39 AM   #23
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,789
United_States
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Where do you put righteous indignation, as self defense or as revenge?
I'd say neither. Righteous indignation is a natural response to some situations as a brief and passing thing -- but if you fan the fire and build it up, as we so often do, it's unhealthy self-indulgence. Yes, the situation is wrong. Yes, you're justifiably upset about it. But as soon as you realize that, it's time to acknowledge it and set it aside, rather than continue to validate and build up your sense of yourself as the aggrieved party. The offense, whatever it was, doesn't become any worse if you dwell on it; all that you do is blow the whole thing out of proportion in your own mind, and diminish your own capacity to make a measured and proportionate response.
 
Old 01-13-2011, 07:25 AM   #24
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

What would Ueshiba do?

 
Old 01-13-2011, 09:14 AM   #25
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,198
Offline
Re: Is there another solution?

That is something I will never know because I am not him...I am me. Since I wasn't there I don't know exctly what I would do in the situation. I would like to think: I wouldn't have worn a white belt, that I would have checked my ego at the door and that when I noticed that things were getting hinky I would have the courage to leave.
Mary
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Aikido Solution to a Cultural Collision Stefan Stenudd Columns 14 06-05-2011 11:27 AM
Attracting / keeping women members at a dojo jennyvanwest General 77 03-22-2007 08:29 AM
The solution to Aiki Newbie Confusion... Joost Korpel Humor 41 12-14-2005 11:15 AM
Jewish issue memyselfandi General 225 08-13-2002 07:11 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:35 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate