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Old 12-13-2010, 02:56 PM   #76
graham christian
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Not me. Lets keep the focus on the post you made. If you have a spiritual component of your argument I do not oppose that component. I only oppose the "you don't know me" excuse to explaining how you arrived at your conclusion. What interview with O'Sensei are you citing? Where is the transcript? Or was the interview interpreted? If so, by whom? How did you derive your statement from the context of the interview? What Shihan support this viewpoint? Is your viewpoint a progeny of your own deduction, or were they any contributions from others? These are all great questions to which I would like to see the answer. You are explaining a point and I am all for the ride but you're not bringing me along... This stuff is all elementary to an educational thesis, I'm trying to get learned here after all. Check out those members on this forum who have solid writing. Hell, Dr. Goldsbury writes half his posts in Japanese (I can't even figure out how to insert the dang symbols). You wanna play with the big boys, you gotta come with something... Every river begins as a trickle in the mud, right? I got some popcorn for a good read if it takes you a while.

Correct. You are not a just-add-water aikido expert just because your post something. To ask others to submit to your ethos without credentials is preposterous. Some of the cats on this forum are so long in the tooth they're practically ice-age. You're gonna cram down their throats some jibber jabber, then contest they are not giving your props? My hands get sweaty when some of these lifers read my posts... Then you gonna tell them they're not ready to hear your message? Wow. You want these cats to respect your thinking? Prove to them its legit.

I may not agree with your comments, but if its solid I can respect your argument. "Source citing is important..." According to Wikipedia Abraham Lincoln said this after defeating the Klingons at Gettysburg to end the Revolutionary War.
Hey Jon,
Got your popcorn?

You oppose the you don't know me excuse??? I never say that.

As I said, I've cited the source for the interview already, if you want to look it up type in O'Sensei interview on google and find the one he had with his son. (aikido faq)

What Shihan supports this view? It's not for me to say, why should I do your work for you. This is my view and if you don't want to test it for yourself and need correlation and back up then find some shihans who agree and find some who disagree and have fun.

Do I expect others to submit to my ethos without credentials???

Wow! Excuse me for smiling. I told you already I give views for people to contemplate and test for themselves and if they do this they can then acknowledge what I say, add to what I say, tell me what they discovered, tell me they see how it applies to life but enquire how it applies to Aikido, whatever. But only after they have tested it for themselves. No references, no translations, no he saids.

If this doesn't fit in with your way of doing things then so be it. It's neither right nor wrong but it's not the only way.

Your comments about playing with the big boys???

Your comments about cramming jibber jabber down the throats of ' cats who are long in the tooth' ???

Double wow! ( Now where I come from that there is fighting talks)

Big boys don't argue, they contemplate, test, debate. There are no put downs at at worst they agree to differ. Real big boys may even read something, smile and say nothing. Exceptional big boys may fully understand what the person is saying and add something that takes it even further, thus taking the writers understanding even further.

Anyway, I still love you. G.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:39 PM   #77
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Big boys don't argue, they ... debate.
Sigh.

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:42 PM   #78
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
But it is also kindness, it is just my opinion and I understand that you and many other people have other opinions, I respect that. Please why do you not respect my opinion,
thanks
Japanese is not about your opinions. Japanese language is about the usage Japanese people give it.

Just because my opinion is that the Earth is flat... well, you know how it goes.

You opinion does not deserve respect.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:45 PM   #79
Flintstone
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
I also respect your opinion Demetrio. What we are doing here is also Aikido, although I doubt Alejandro and you will understand that
I'm not using aiki while sitting in front of my computer. Paraphrasing one very well respected master, aiki is not something you cannot do to a keyboard. You broaden the term aikido in the same manner you twist the meaning of ki. Not funny.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:47 PM   #80
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
My reservation is with the magical thinking of the OP that if I act with ki, my acts will ipso facto be kind acts. Which I see as a variety of bad faith.
I definately disagree with the statement, "if I act with ki I always act with kindness." I think it's fair to say there is bad ki and good ki...assuming ki can even have a fixed definition. I guess what I think I'm seeing is a work in progress with regard to defining ki, basing it on something similar to my sense of ki as I learned it from Tsubaki America and thus Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Japan...this idea of returning to the "source ki," which is pure (for lack of a better term perhaps) and, i presume, "good" (whatever that might be). If I'm not mistaken, Misogi has been explained to me in a similar light, in which over time, our otherwise good nature accumulates tsumi/impurity which we seek to return to its original, better state.
I'm not sure I understand the topic very well, but based on my limited understanding, this is what I've come up with.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:47 PM   #81
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect
No. They do not. That's what Zapatero thinks. That's is motto. This is the result.
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:53 PM   #82
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And Demetrio all opinions do deserve respect,
No way.

I respect your right to have and express your opinions even when those opinions only deserve contempt, like in this case.

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I'm sorry to read this, that tells me more of you than every answer you gave me since we met in aikiforum , really very sorry
Want a kleenex?

Quote:
What we are doing here is also Aikido, although I doubt Alejandro and you will understand that
No, we aren't doing aikido here.

Ed. Alex, let's not go into politics, this is an aikido forum (remember Dr. Strangelove war room scene?)

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-13-2010 at 03:56 PM.

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Old 12-13-2010, 03:57 PM   #83
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Matthew, as my understanding goes, 気 is neither good or bad and both of them. 気 is the spirit behind something, it's heart, its soul, its energy, and surely it can be kind, but then it can be evil. It depends on the use you give to it.

But saying 気 is "kindness" you're stating an absolute. And neither the language nor the concept functions that way.

And Carina is basing the language (and the kanji) in mere opinions based on... based on what, Carina? We still don't know your mileage in the language or the culture. Perhaps if you belonged to some mysterious and unknown sect that defined 気 as "kindness", you opinion would have some base. But mere opinion? You really must be joking. But I guess not.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:02 PM   #84
Flintstone
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I respect your right to have and express your opinions even when those opinions only deserve contempt, like in this case.
Please make her note that "I respect you right to have and express your opinions" does not equal "I respect your opinions". It's not the same and I'm sure she's not getting it.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
No, we aren't doing aikido here.
At least not me. I'm not even creating a ground path from my fingertips. Go figure!

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ed. Alex, let's not go into politics, this is an aikido forum (remember Dr. Strangelove war room scene?)
No fighting in the war room! But remember, some could opine Aikido means politics...
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:08 PM   #85
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Thank you, Prof. Goldsbury! I was really hoping you would comment on my questions. Does the above mean to imply that your studies of Aikido might differ somewhat from your linguistic studies?

Thank you for your time, Sensei!
Take care,
Matthew
Hello Matthew,

Thank you for your response.

I have just got up and looked at this thread. I am surprised to see that it has grown by two pages. I do not have time now for an extended response to your questions, but I will give a response later.

In answer to your question that I quoted, my studies of Japanese and my aikido training have always been different, even though my training has always been in Japanese, since I have always had Japanese teachers. Of course, in the UK and the US, they spoke English, but the vast bulk of my training has been here, in Japan, and I use English in aikido only when I am explaining something to a visitor who does not speak Japanese.

However, all the time I have been here, I have been part of a large Japanese academic community, completely unconnected to aikido, in which the medium of general communication has largely been Japanese. This has been a kind of total immersion, but a different kind of immersion to the experience of someone who lives as an uchi-deshi.

Thus, in this thread, which is concerned with the meaning of a Japanese term, I prefer to speak on the basis of my knowledge of the Japanese language. In any case, when I need to give explanations in aikido, I rarely use the term KI and if you glance at the quoted thread, my opinion is similar to that of Robert John (Upyu).

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 12-13-2010 at 04:11 PM.

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Old 12-13-2010, 04:10 PM   #86
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

No mileage Alejandro and no kleenex Demetrio.
If you don't even understand that sitting in front of a computer you can also do aikido in a spiritual way, I give up you never will understand me. Just take care both of you.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:13 PM   #87
graham christian
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
From http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html.

In essence, the character ki means:

* spirit, mind, soul, heart
* intention
* bent, interest
* mood, feeling
* temper, disposition, nature
* care, attention
* air, atmosphere
* flavor
* odor
* energy, essence, air, indications
* symptoms
* taste
* touch, dash, shade, trace
* spark, flash
* suspicion

Here are some contexts in which the word "ki" and some of its derivations are used in everyday Japanese.

Japanese Phrase Kanji Literal Translation Definition
Gen ki "source/foundation of ki." one's health
Byou ki "ill ki." to be sick
Ten ki "heavenly ki." the weather
Ki ga tatsu "the ki stands upright." to get angry
Ki wo tsukeru "to put on (or to have) ki" to be careful; to be attentive
Ki ga kiku "the ki is used a lot" to be empathetic
Ki ga susumanai "the ki does not go forward." to not want to do something
Ki ga sumu "the ki is finished or used up." to feel fulfilled
Ki ga tsuku "to have "ki" put onto you." to notice
Ki ga tsuyoi "the ki is strong." to be headstrong
Ki ga yowai "the ki is weak." to be like a coward
Ki ga tooku naru "the ki goes far away." to become lightheaded
Ki ga nai "to have no ki" to have no interest in something
Ki ga nukeru "the ki becomes missing." to lose hope
Ki ga mijikai "the ki is short." to be short tempered
Ki ni sawaru "something touches the ki." to find something irritating
Ki ni naru "to become ki" to have something nagging or on one's mind
Ki wo kubaru "to pass out ki (to people)" to attend to other people's wishes"

And I would add,O'sensei wanted us to practice in an atmosphere of joy then your Aikido could be funki.

This is from the quoted threat. So have you enough definitions of ki?
Hi Carina,
Hope you don't mind me coming back to this point.

I like your view. For all those arguing about words and meanings may I say this; With all words there is a BASIC concept. One which leads to all the future variations. I don't see all these intellectual attackers giving a basic concept or meaning for Ki.

One person who decided to take responsibility for this aspect of Aikido was Tohei Sensei. He defined it, gave a rendition of it's use and origins as a word et al. His interview was in english so theres no excuse for those who say yeah but language......

This can be found in Aikijournal-interview with Koichi Tohei (4).

He said it means spirit of the universe. I think this works quite well with your examples of words encompassing the word ki, in fact there are hundreds of them.

Ki is thus spirit according to it's basic concept. Therefore that which comes from, is innate to spirit is Ki.

Kindness is of the spirit and thus ki is kindness. In fact all energies of spirit are Ki so love is also ki, compassion also.

Studying the effect of kindness, an example I gave at the beginning of this thread, showed me the power of kindness rather than just the meaning of the word. Studying the effect of love and what it does a person can learn that it is all embrasive, welcoming, all inclusive, supportive, wow! Thats powerrful isn't it?

Now applying this to Aikido leads to new views and recognitions of what O'Sensei meant. For example love is all embrasive, wecoming, all inclusive, supportive, so what principle did that lead me to in Aikido? Well firstly it helped me with the act of blending with the opponent but then led to a principle of 'be with'

Many talk about connection, I have put this in the form of a principle calle be with. This improved my Aikido tenfold. Suddenly I knew what O'Sensei meant by there is no opponent and similar statements. Thus I say as a golden rule of my Aikido that there is no against in Aikido.

When techniques are not working or I'm stuck I recognise I'M not being with and have gone into opposition and thus separated and gone against and caused my own problem.

Just thought I'd tell you my view, validate your view, and expand on the topic of the thread.

Enjoy.G.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:14 PM   #88
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
No mileage Alejandro and no kleenex Demetrio.
Then not only language is not based on your opinions, but your opinions in the matter are worth next to nothing.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
If you don't even understand that sitting in front of a computer you can also do aikido in a spiritual way, I give up you never will understand me. Just take care both of you.
And sitting in front of a computer I can also do volleyball. Of course.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:16 PM   #89
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Kindness is of the spirit and thus ki is kindness. In fact all energies of spirit are Ki so love is also ki, compassion also.
And then so is hate. Or you want to take only half of the conclusion? Take it all or don't take it at all.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:19 PM   #90
carina reinhardt
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Carina,
Hope you don't mind me coming back to this point.

I like your view. For all those arguing about words and meanings may I say this; With all words there is a BASIC concept. One which leads to all the future variations. I don't see all these intellectual attackers giving a basic concept or meaning for Ki.

One person who decided to take responsibility for this aspect of Aikido was Tohei Sensei. He defined it, gave a rendition of it's use and origins as a word et al. His interview was in english so theres no excuse for those who say yeah but language......

This can be found in Aikijournal-interview with Koichi Tohei (4).

He said it means spirit of the universe. I think this works quite well with your examples of words encompassing the word ki, in fact there are hundreds of them.

Ki is thus spirit according to it's basic concept. Therefore that which comes from, is innate to spirit is Ki.

Kindness is of the spirit and thus ki is kindness. In fact all energies of spirit are Ki so love is also ki, compassion also.

Studying the effect of kindness, an example I gave at the beginning of this thread, showed me the power of kindness rather than just the meaning of the word. Studying the effect of love and what it does a person can learn that it is all embrasive, welcoming, all inclusive, supportive, wow! Thats powerrful isn't it?

Now applying this to Aikido leads to new views and recognitions of what O'Sensei meant. For example love is all embrasive, wecoming, all inclusive, supportive, so what principle did that lead me to in Aikido? Well firstly it helped me with the act of blending with the opponent but then led to a principle of 'be with'

Many talk about connection, I have put this in the form of a principle calle be with. This improved my Aikido tenfold. Suddenly I knew what O'Sensei meant by there is no opponent and similar statements. Thus I say as a golden rule of my Aikido that there is no against in Aikido.

When techniques are not working or I'm stuck I recognise I'M not being with and have gone into opposition and thus separated and gone against and caused my own problem.

Just thought I'd tell you my view, validate your view, and expand on the topic of the thread.

Enjoy.G.
Thanks Graham.
I understand also that the attackers don't understand, it is very difficult and it takes a lot of sensitiveness that they don't have therefore they cannot understand. I feel a bit of pity for them
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:25 PM   #91
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Thanks Graham.
I understand also that the attackers don't understand, it is very difficult and it takes a lot of sensitiveness that they don't have therefore they cannot understand. I feel a bit of pity for them
Yes, we are aikitrolls and you are an enlightened one. Please, you must forgive these poor mortals, oh you Ueshiba's Avatar.

Listen, we don't have sensitivity but we don't smoke that thing or eat those mushrooms of yours.

Did I get a ban for this? Pleeeeeeeeease.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:26 PM   #92
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Alejandro,

I think you're on target with this observation. Er, that is, the one about taking it all or leaving it alone.

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:30 PM   #93
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Please make her note that "I respect you right to have and express your opinions" does not equal "I respect your opinions". It's not the same and I'm sure she's not getting it.
She is getting it.

Quote:
At least not me. I'm not even creating a ground path from my fingertips. Go figure!
Cable y piqueta, no falla.

Quote:
No fighting in the war room! But remember, some could opine Aikido means politics...
Aikido is a martial art .Martial = related to Mars, god of war. War = continuation of politics by other means (as per Clausewitz). Aikido = Politics

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 12-13-2010 at 04:32 PM. Reason: typo

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Old 12-13-2010, 05:04 PM   #94
graham christian
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
And then so is hate. Or you want to take only half of the conclusion? Take it all or don't take it at all.
That's your conclusion or observation, that's fine, but it's not me with half a conclusion.

I have a more complete view you may or may not agree with.

All energies of spirit are good, thus it includes kindness, love ,compassion, etc. which leads to things like help, validation, granting of beingness, acknowledgement, acceptance, clear perception, understanding etc.

On the other hand negative energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Negative feelings which actually come from past failures or upsets or losses or traumas etc.

You can BE loving and kind. You can only BECOME angry or hateful.

For me kindness is also a matter of honour and acceptance,( a quality of love) is a matter of integrity and leads to a better understanding.

Respectfully.G.
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:17 PM   #95
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
All energies of spirit are good, thus it includes kindness, love ,compassion, etc. which leads to things like help, validation, granting of beingness, acknowledgement, acceptance, clear perception, understanding etc.

On the other hand negative energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Negative feelings which actually come from past failures or upsets or losses or traumas etc.
Really?

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Old 12-13-2010, 05:41 PM   #96
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
That's your conclusion or observation, that's fine, but it's not me with half a conclusion.

I have a more complete view you may or may not agree with.
Passive aggressive. Your view is oh so more complete than mine. But I'm having a déjà vu.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
All energies of spirit are good, thus it includes kindness, love ,compassion, etc. which leads to things like help, validation, granting of beingness, acknowledgement, acceptance, clear perception, understanding etc.

On the other hand negative energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Negative feelings which actually come from past failures or upsets or losses or traumas etc.

You can BE loving and kind. You can only BECOME angry or hateful.
What about this:

All energies of spirit are evil, thus it includes hate, aversion to beauty, egotism, etc. which leads to things like refusal, denial, unacceptance, blurred perception, misunderstanding etc.

On the other hand positive energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Positive feelings which actually come from past successes etc.

You can BE angry or hateful. You can only BECOME loving and kind.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:07 PM   #97
graham christian
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Passive aggressive. Your view is oh so more complete than mine. But I'm having a déjà vu.

What about this:

All energies of spirit are evil, thus it includes hate, aversion to beauty, egotism, etc. which leads to things like refusal, denial, unacceptance, blurred perception, misunderstanding etc.

On the other hand positive energies are thus not of the spirit. They are of the mind. Positive feelings which actually come from past successes etc.

You can BE angry or hateful. You can only BECOME loving and kind.
Nice. Bouncy. Enthusiastic.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:51 PM   #98
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Condescending; passive aggressive. But intended kindly, I'm sure.

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:24 PM   #99
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_...ite_cornucopia

The Law of the Infinite Cornucopia, put forth by Polish philosopher Leszek Kołakowski suggests that for any given doctrine one wants to believe, there is never a shortage of arguments by which one can support it.

Or ... these discussions tend not to end well.

David Henderson
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:44 PM   #100
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Yes Mary why??? because that is what the threat is about
The threat, or the thread? And why are you asking me my own question, which was asking YOU why you felt the need to conflate two different terms?
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