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Old 11-25-2010, 05:02 PM   #26
ravenest
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
For Sugano Sensei, OP will need someone from USAF ER to address the issue....
You may want to go to http://www.aikidoonline.com/ and contact someone there.
Thanks, I'll give them some time as some of their pages are still 'under construction'. (Must be a new site?)
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Old 11-25-2010, 05:27 PM   #27
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
Thanks, I'll give them some time as some of their pages are still 'under construction'. (Must be a new site?)
It's a long established site and comes in just fine.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 11-25-2010, 06:04 PM   #28
ravenest
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
It's a long established site and comes in just fine.
Oh, okay, thanks Janet. I did get a window saying page unavailible site under construction????

I'll try again later. Thanks for steering me in that direction.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:09 AM   #29
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Carten, I am very interested in hearing more about why you won't allow Inaba's Kashima Shinryu to be defined as aikiken.
Hm, I'm not the one to allow this or that. I just try to explain, how we name things like we do, how we practice and teach, and why we do so.

As far as I know, Inaba sensei teaches ken jutsu through "independent" seminars: There is no aikido taught at these seminars, I think. At least when visiting Europe he does it this way. To be clear: I never practiced with him. But know some people who do.

When Tissier sensei teaches, he separates weapons classes from aikido classes. This is common practice in all the dojo I know: We do aikido and weapons in different classes.
When teaching weapons the forms of ken jutsu and aiki ken normally are not mixed up. It is made clear whether we do ken jutsu or whether we do aiki ken at the moment. And the differences in using the sword one way or another are explained when taught.

And there are also dojo which offer the practice of ken jutsu with a proficient teacher independent from doing aikido. So you can just do the swordwork of Inaba sensei without practicing aikido also.
As you can do in other dojo where aikido is taught with Tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu or styles of Itto ryu. Depending on the teacher.
Some time ago I learned that there are even people who do just aiki ken without practicing aikido.

Quote:
Do you feel like you'd lose something if you dropped the distinction between "aikiken" and the Kashima Shinryu that Inaba Sensei taught to Tissier?
How could this distinction be "dropped"? However you may call it, it's a different way of the sword. It's a different ryu, different "philosophy", different technique, even different etiquette in some ways. …
If you just call everything "aiki ~" what is done in relation to teach and learn aikido, what do you gain?
I've practiced during aikido class forms of koryu yawara in order to examine nikyo. (If I remember right.) I've practiced during aikido class forms of karate do in order to examine atemi and some other things. And so on. This all doesn't become "aikido" because being used to learn aikido?

Quote:
I could see that, perhaps you revere one set of kata over the other and don't want it brought down to the other's level.
? But this all is not about "This is ‘better' than that"?
It's just different. And that is what makes it interesting.
Around me there is at least TSKSR (My teacher is student of Sugino sensei), KSR (our aikido is heavily influenced by our shihan Tissier sensei) and aiki ken (which just belongs to aikido I think). Each different, each of them a very own, independent way to use the sword, to stand, to move, to handle the opponent.

The five basic kata performed by Tissier sensei
If you look for "Inaba" and "Kashima" at youtube you will find a lot.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 11-26-2010 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:20 AM   #30
Cliff Judge
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Well thats really all very interesting. I didn't realize how actual the distinction between training in the KSR and Aikido was in that area of the Aikido world.

I would agree with you that if an instructor has two separate classes for Aikido and kenjutsu, particularly with students who just do the kenjutsu and not the Aikido, then there is a distinction there. But, if an instructor includes something eclectic into an Aikido class, as in your example about karate or yawara technique, then that's Aikido. I mean, Aikido is a study of principals, and for better or worse doesn't have the same structural baggage that a koryu tradition does. If your teacher makes you throw Shotokan punches or practice a rigid koryu kats during class it doesn't matter...you are on the mat to do Aikido. You aren't practicing the eclectic stuff with enough depth to say you are a karatedoka or what have you. You are on the mat working on these things to progress in your aikido training.

FWIW, I have been surfing youtube and I am quite satisfied that Kashima Shinto Ryu's Ichi no Tachi is, in basic form, present in Kashima Shinryu, Saito Sensei's aikiken, Inaba Sensei's KSR, and incidentally Saotome Sensei's second kumi tachi as well.

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 11-26-2010 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:37 AM   #31
grondahl
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

I think that this is more of an opinion than a fact. In the tradition I study, there is a pretty well defined curriculum and little room for variations or own interpretations. There are also other martial arts that share common principals with aikido, but that does not make them aikido.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
But, if an instructor includes something eclectic into an Aikido class, as in your example about karate or yawara technique, then that's Aikido. I mean, Aikido is a study of principals, and for better or worse doesn't have the same structural baggage that a koryu tradition does.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:12 PM   #32
graham christian
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
Hello all. Just joined the forum. I have been training in Aiki-kai for about 30 years with vast periods missing (no teacher in area), last year our area got a resident teacher and opened a club - great!!! I have also trained in a few styles of karate, including Matsamura Sieto Shorin-Ryu - (quiet different from any karate I have done before and different from other Shorin styles I have observed) and some Kobudo (Bo, Jo, Kama, Sai, Eku). Our Aikido club practices Bokken, Jo and sometimes Tanto.

I have been slowly going through some very interesting posts here - mostly in weaponry section. Wow, so much to read and respond to, but a lot of was posted some time ago, so .... ?

I am looking for some info on Ichi, Ni and San no Ken, exercises with the Bokken (actually all of them, I think there are 5 in this series). I tried a search and a visual through weapons but cant seem to find any refs.

Anyone familiar with these exercises?

Thanks.
Hi Michael. You are talking about solo execises with the bokken which are called suburi. There are seven of them, the names merely coming from numbers.

When practicing these with a partner they are called kumitachi exercises.

This comes under Aikiken and you will find the information you are looking for on wikepedia if you type in Aikiken.

Good luck, (but not in the cricket) G.
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Old 11-26-2010, 03:10 PM   #33
Aikilove
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
FWIW, I have been surfing youtube and I am quite satisfied that Kashima Shinto Ryu's Ichi no Tachi is, in basic form, present in Kashima Shinryu, Saito Sensei's aikiken, Inaba Sensei's KSR, and incidentally Saotome Sensei's second kumi tachi as well.
YOUTUBE you say. I would bet many men and women, who have trained in said koryu for many years, including formal representativs, would wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 11-26-2010, 04:09 PM   #34
ravenest
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This is becoming a 'mystery'.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Michael. You are talking about solo execises with the bokken which are called suburi. There are seven of them, the names merely coming from numbers.

When practicing these with a partner they are called kumitachi exercises.

This comes under Aikiken and you will find the information you are looking for on wikepedia if you type in Aikiken.

Good luck, (but not in the cricket) G.
No I am not talking about solo exercises. It takes two to do this tango. I do know what a suburi is and I can count to 10 in Japanese so I understand where the names come from. Kumitachi seems an unfamiliar term and practice in my neck of the woods. I checked the ref you gave but it seems to come up kumitachi again. I already checked the kumitachi I was given reference to above and they are not like the 5 sword movements I described above.

But thanks for your (on topic ) response anyway.
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Old 11-26-2010, 04:55 PM   #35
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Re: This is becoming a 'mystery'.

I assume that you already have tried http://www.aikido.org.au/sword-technique.html ?
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Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
No I am not talking about solo exercises. It takes two to do this tango. I do know what a suburi is and I can count to 10 in Japanese so I understand where the names come from. Kumitachi seems an unfamiliar term and practice in my neck of the woods. I checked the ref you gave but it seems to come up kumitachi again. I already checked the kumitachi I was given reference to above and they are not like the 5 sword movements I described above.

But thanks for your (on topic ) response anyway.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:57 PM   #36
graham christian
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Wink Re: Ichi no ken ?

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Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
Thanks guys. problem is I have no internet (only when I at the library) and the amount of time it takes to get through one of these clips ... if it works. But thanks again, I'll check those sites out.

The problem is I thought I had them, 1-5, down pretty good. Then our instructor left, now we either have no teacher or a series of visiting teachers or 'advanced students' who dont know them or dont want to do them or has a v.unusual take on whats going on with them.

Its also quiet frustrating, I've invested a bit of time and energy in learning them. I'm pretty sure of a movement, then its bought into question and when I ask the questioner to show me they cant Now, I feel, unless I can practice these with someone sensibly I am going to loose what I learnt.

I'm sure there are a few variations. There certainly are a lot of variations in WHAT people think they are doing with it?

Anyone know of a thread discussing this anywhere?
Hi again. It seems to me that if you had them down pretty good then you did. Plus, if you did then you won't lose what you learned so don't worry about that.

I'm more interested in the part about a move being brought into question and what you mean by that. G.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:32 PM   #37
Cliff Judge
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Jakob Blomquist wrote: View Post
YOUTUBE you say. I would bet many men and women, who have trained in said koryu for many years, including formal representativs, would wholeheartedly disagree with you.
They'd be missing my point, though.
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:47 AM   #38
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
They'd be missing my point, though.
Could you please elabortate?
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:29 PM   #39
Cliff Judge
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Could you please elabortate?
That aiki-ken is descended primarily from Kashima sword traditions.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:10 PM   #40
ravenest
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Re: This is becoming a 'mystery'.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I assume that you already have tried http://www.aikido.org.au/sword-technique.html ?
Yes, I havent noticed the movements in there, but in any case I was hoping for varient discussion on the exercises (aside from what I have had here) and not instruction.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:21 PM   #41
ravenest
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi again. It seems to me that if you had them down pretty good then you did. Plus, if you did then you won't lose what you learned so don't worry about that.

I'm more interested in the part about a move being brought into question and what you mean by that. G.
eg. I believe I was always told number 5 is on the same side as 1,2 and 3, only 4 is on the other side, I train with soeone one week, we agree. Next week, that person doesnt show but another one does and says, oh no, number 5 is on the other side too.

Or

Number 1 first movement; student attacks the head of teacher with, I believe, kira ski - (Sic? Which I understand to mean 'thrusting cut to the face'? [now I've done it haven't I ? ] ) I have been told this is just an exercise so the student can get a feel of ma'ai and other things. The teacher just stands there giving the student a target and forcus, he holds his sword horizontally over his brow, as I was told, to just give a focus and so teacher is not constantly bokked on the head by unfocused student technique.

Somehow, with some, this seems to have turned into a 'block', and IMO a very innefectual one, Some have realised this and tried to turn it into a better 'block' thus defeating the purpose (?) of the exercise in the first place? *

I was hoping to find others who were familiar with these exercises and compare notes beyond the small range of my immediate training environs..

* And who knows how some things evolved in most martial traditions ... with a 'Do' at least. I was learning Chinto Kata for a while and was always baffled at the sloppiness of the last move evryone was doing. previously, and in other kata, the last move and final position is very formal and strong ... you are often judged quiet harsly on your last final move and pose. When I asked why I was shown an old film of that stlyes Okinawan master performing Chinto, he was very old and by then probably, ( in retrospect) quiet ill. By the end of the kata (quiet vigorous with jumping double kicks and spinning crane stances),on the film, he looked quiet beat and stiff. They had been exactly copying him. At least now - in my old age I can finally perform the kata properly :laugh:

Last edited by ravenest : 11-29-2010 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:39 AM   #42
Cliff Judge
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Okay, seriously...who told my instructors that I have been trolling on the forums about aiki-ken without having actually done Saito's kata? Because just last night I actually did a couple of them for the first time.

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
The teacher just stands there giving the student a target and forcus, he holds his sword horizontally over his brow, as I was told, to just give a focus and so teacher is not constantly bokked on the head by unfocused student technique.

Somehow, with some, this seems to have turned into a 'block', and IMO a very innefectual one, Some have realised this and tried to turn it into a better 'block' thus defeating the purpose (?) of the exercise in the first place? *
I think what is happening here is the instructor is executing a technique called a nagashi that is present in Shinkage ryu and Kashima styles. It's not a block in the sense that you apply counterforce to halt your opponents attack. It's more a way to negate an attack in such a way that an opening is created that can be instantly exploited.

I believe you are correct that there is a lot going on about maai and that both partners are supposed to maintain a certain maai throughout the kata. This probably means that the nagashi is never "fully realized." But it is still THERE, in a way that traditional kumitachi have layers of unrevealed techniques.

Anyway, some visual aids. First, I think what you are referring to is what the guy on the right does at about 00:18 of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rb2NN46uro

Now look at what the guy on the right (but actually both of them) do at about 00:16 of this clip of Kashima Shinto Ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z67-IKg-vyI
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:07 PM   #43
ravenest
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Okay, seriously...who told my instructors that I have been trolling on the forums about aiki-ken without having actually done Saito's kata? Because just last night I actually did a couple of them for the first time.
Well, some instructors just ... 'know' these things

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think what is happening here is the instructor is executing a technique called a nagashi that is present in Shinkage ryu and Kashima styles. It's not a block in the sense that you apply counterforce to halt your opponents attack. It's more a way to negate an attack in such a way that an opening is created that can be instantly exploited.
Yes, except: (Unless my sword training is v.questionible) would one do that in a v.casual stance, hold the sword in a way (straight / horizontal) that is very difficult to stop a stong blow, not move off line, etc ?

Some, in this exercise, seem to want to cut straight back from this positon, expecting the other to move back and recieve the cut down their sword, with the hands out of range from the cut. Except they started that cut with my sword 1 inch from their head ... all I have to do is move off line to the outside and cut down their face, turn to my right - their outside - meet their cut and exit.

I am starting to wonder if I have been shown a corrupted or at least misunderstood exercise. The only point I can see is if the original statement holds true, beginers wacking practice and DONT hit my head.
Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I believe you are correct that there is a lot going on about maai and that both partners are supposed to maintain a certain maai throughout the kata. This probably means that the nagashi is never "fully realized." But it is still THERE, in a way that traditional kumitachi have layers of unrevealed techniques.

Anyway, some visual aids. First, I think what you are referring to is what the guy on the right does at about 00:18 of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rb2NN46uro

Now look at what the guy on the right (but actually both of them) do at about 00:16 of this clip of Kashima Shinto Ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z67-IKg-vyI
I can see the similarity but it looks totally different. The guy in the vid isnt just standing there with the end of the sword over his forehead and staying on line.
That vid move reminds me of ; One cuts to the head, the other thrusts to the throat, moves off line, cuts under the arm muscle as the others sword descends (and here is that pose from the vid) moves slightly more off the line and from this position thrusts into the head through the ear or continues the movement around into a diagonal cut down - virtually from the rear (again sorry about my lack of correct Japanese fencing terminology).
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:07 AM   #44
Cliff Judge
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
Yes, except: (Unless my sword training is v.questionible) would one do that in a v.casual stance, hold the sword in a way (straight / horizontal) that is very difficult to
stop a stong blow, not move off line, etc ?
In my opinion, "casual" is not a proper attitude to have when studying Aikido with swords, ever. You get the most out of training with swords when you approach it with an attitude of "shit has just gotten really real."

I think he should be projecting the intention to cut you down at that point in the kata and you should be trying to read his intention to cut you down.

On a technical note, if the posture in question here is actually an implied nagashi, then it is not necessarily bad if it look like it could not "stop a strong blow." It's a combined offensive / defensive movement that is blending or deflecting in nature.

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
Some, in this exercise, seem to want to cut straight back from this positon, expecting the other to move back and recieve the cut down their sword, with the hands out of range from the cut. Except they started that cut with my sword 1 inch from their head ... all I have to do is move off line to the outside and cut down their face, turn to my right - their outside - meet their cut and exit.

I am starting to wonder if I have been shown a corrupted or at least misunderstood exercise. The only point I can see is if the original statement holds true, beginers wacking practice and DONT hit my head.
The problem is more that you and possibly your training partners are spinning your gears trying to feel a martial narrative that is not there. Kumitachi are meant to instill principals. Sometimes they instill principals by making you worry about something basic like not getting hit or completing a complex move with a certain timing. Other times, its something that looks nothing at all like combat.

The solution for you is to find yourself a well-qualified instructor, have him or her show you the kata, and simply do your best to do exactly what you are taught, nothing more or less. If you must analyze, do so with a very open mind.
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:36 AM   #45
fisher6000
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Hello!

Sounds like you are referring to Seichii Sugano Shihan's 5 paired bokken exercises--ichi no ken through go no ken, which were taught widely by Sugano in Australia, and I think are still taught widely in Australia by his son, I think his name is Jikou?

We are doing a lot of work on these right now at NY Aikikai as Sugano Shihan recently passed away and left very little by way of videotape of this legacy. Here is one video that gives a bit of information. Toward the end he goes over some of the paired exercises that make up the ken series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7c82ieleBg

They're amazing exercises, not the same as suburi or kumitage because while they are somewhat scripted, they depend much more on reaction and relationship than form. Sugano talks in the youtube clip about "feeling pressure on your body" and forcing movement in the exercise by breaking maai rather than starting because nage has signaled readiness by presenting an opening. This emphasis on forcing and reacting is quite strong, and in my limited experience somewhat unique. It's been positively affecting my training.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:50 PM   #46
ravenest
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Deborah Fisher wrote: View Post
Hello!

Sounds like you are referring to Seichii Sugano Shihan's 5 paired bokken exercises--ichi no ken through go no ken, which were taught widely by Sugano in Australia, and I think are still taught widely in Australia by his son, I think his name is Jikou?

We are doing a lot of work on these right now at NY Aikikai as Sugano Shihan recently passed away and left very little by way of videotape of this legacy. Here is one video that gives a bit of information. Toward the end he goes over some of the paired exercises that make up the ken series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7c82ieleBg

They're amazing exercises, not the same as suburi or kumitage because while they are somewhat scripted, they depend much more on reaction and relationship than form. Sugano talks in the youtube clip about "feeling pressure on your body" and forcing movement in the exercise by breaking maai rather than starting because nage has signaled readiness by presenting an opening. This emphasis on forcing and reacting is quite strong, and in my limited experience somewhat unique. It's been positively affecting my training.
AAAHHHH! Someone does know what I'm talking about (Thats a relief!) Thanks heaps Deborah. I'll go through that ref. you posted.
yes, I agree with what you wrote (and to an extent also what Cliff wrote about sword exercises. It has been pointed out numerous times to me about our exercises (by the instructiors) that 'This is NOT sword fighting!"

The 'feeling pressure' thing is interesting. Also a type of reverse pressure, like getting sucked into an attack, like a vacuum. I felt it, didnt lknow why I did it, just drawn forward.

How would you desribe the first few moves of Ichi no Ken? (I'm not assuming any particul;ar way is right or wrong as Instructors may use variations to teach different things. But I would be interested to hear your take on it. Jikou has visited and done some training with us a while back, - I cant remember if we went through these exercises with him though, it was some time ago.
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Old 12-04-2010, 09:33 AM   #47
fisher6000
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Hello, glad to help!

To clarify where this is coming from, I am a 4th kyu learning this from a handful of yudansha in NYC where Sugano did not do a ton of weapons work. My knowledge is seriously limited--you have the real source in Jikou, who came here in summer at the time of Sugano Shihan's memorial and taught at couple of classes that focused on this work.

That said, I did do ichi no ken on Thursday.

Ichi no ken: Teacher and student are in hamni (Sugano goes over this concept extensively in youtube clip) and student breaks maai with a direct ski or thrust. Teacher steps back and anticpates student's next move, which is kiritske (sp?), a strike to the head, by blocking and checking the student's accuracy and maai. Then teacher returns with a strike, which student parries. Teacher goes under the student's blade and skis, student changes hamni and parries again, and then thrusts deeply to force teacher to move back. This kind of resets maai and forces a conclusion. Student raises and presents an opening--sets a trap if you will. Teacher goes for the wrist of student, student steps off the line and delivers a strike to the head. Teacher dies, student lives.

If you are learning weapons from Jikou Sugano Sensei then surely this is what you are learning...

Have fun, this type of weapons training is really inspiring me right now.
Deborah
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:03 AM   #48
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

I'm sorry to be a pedantic jerk, but this going to bug me in what is otherwise an interesting conversation:

thrust - tsuki
cut to a particular point - kiritsuke
oblique stance - hanmi (han - half, mi - body)

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 12-04-2010, 03:25 PM   #49
Keith Larman
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I'm sorry to be a pedantic jerk,
I for one appreciate fine distinctions and corrections.

Funny how the mind works, too. Once I was listening to someone talking about how you should stand "ham knee". Okay, that's what I was hearing and I spent a few seconds thinking "okay, knees like a pig? 'Fat' knees? What?" Then it occurred to me -- hanmi. I laughed at myself since although it was *so* close in pronunciation the "meaning" of his mispronunciation kept me from realizing he simply didn't know how to say hanmi correctly. His insistence on reversing the n and m along with a pause he put between the syllables threw me completely off for a few seconds.

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Old 12-05-2010, 06:07 AM   #50
fisher6000
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Re: Ichi no ken ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29_VEGPTxGk
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