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Old 11-18-2010, 11:39 PM   #76
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Sure there's much more to Aiki principles. I guess the question becomes, can a Judoka, Jujutsuka use Aiki principles in there Judo/Jujutsu? I think this is what Roy Dean has been trying to demonstrate in his approach to martials arts in general. Roy Dean knows Aikido, he is a 1st dan, but incoporates Aiki in his BJJ. I think he has a great approach to Aiki and self defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg
The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

Do not compare Modern Sport Judo with Aikido, because the former has lost much of its "Ju".

Instead compare Traditional Kodokan Judo (where there is a strong emphasis on "Ju") with Aikido.

You will see that the secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".
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Old 11-19-2010, 09:55 AM   #77
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I think people have a hard time understanding competition. When a skilled man faces an unskilled man, it's easy and effortless for the skilled man to defeat the unskilled man. Even if the unskilled man is larger and physically more powerful. This is not competition.

However if both men have similar levels of ability, experience and physicality there will be struggle. This is the nature of conflict and competition, and no martial art system is beyond this fact.

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Old 11-19-2010, 10:57 AM   #78
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".
Huh? Could you explain this? So how did the jujutsu masters of the past, that had remarkable skills before the advent of aikido, do this this then? Did they not have the "secret" yet?

Last edited by Eric Joyce : 11-19-2010 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Added txt

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Old 11-19-2010, 01:52 PM   #79
Cliff Judge
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Huh? Could you explain this? So how did the jujutsu masters of the past, that had remarkable skills before the advent of aikido, do this this then? Did they not have the "secret" yet?
I think you have it backwards, actually - the jujutsu masters of the past DID have it - they just didn't call it aiki.

Aiki isn't something O Sensei or Sokaku Takeda invented, it was present in slightly different forms in many different arts. O Sensei's gift to us - and kind of a loaded gift, to be sure - was to create an art that took what was deep, inner, secret stuff in the ancestor arts, and plunk it down on the table on Day 1.
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Old 11-19-2010, 02:16 PM   #80
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think you have it backwards, actually - the jujutsu masters of the past DID have it - they just didn't call it aiki.

Aiki isn't something O Sensei or Sokaku Takeda invented, it was present in slightly different forms in many different arts. O Sensei's gift to us - and kind of a loaded gift, to be sure - was to create an art that took what was deep, inner, secret stuff in the ancestor arts, and plunk it down on the table on Day 1.
That was actually my point. They did have it, in one form or another and they didn't need to do it via "aiki". What Randall stated was:

"The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

This statement, to me, was more absolute. Like you said, it was presented in different forms in many different arts.

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Old 11-19-2010, 06:18 PM   #81
Cliff Judge
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
That was actually my point. They did have it, in one form or another and they didn't need to do it via "aiki". What Randall stated was:

"The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

This statement, to me, was more absolute. Like you said, it was presented in different forms in many different arts.
I apologize for getting what you had backwards backwards.
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Old 11-19-2010, 07:07 PM   #82
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

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I apologize for getting what you had backwards backwards.
No problem Cliff

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Old 11-19-2010, 10:15 PM   #83
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
That was actually my point. They did have it, in one form or another and they didn't need to do it via "aiki". What Randall stated was:

"The secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

This statement, to me, was more absolute. Like you said, it was presented in different forms in many different arts.
The concept of "Aiki" is not limited to our Aikido techniques alone.

"Aiki" is present in any technique that allows a person to experience "Ju" with an attack.

For example: If your opponent pushes you, & you use his forward force/momentum (together with a little of your own force) to break his balance, you are actually using "Aiki" to experience "Ju" for yourself.

If a person truly wishes to experience "Ju" in his techniques, he has to use "Aiki".

"Ju" & "Aiki" are very closely inter-related. Their relationship is that of a "Cause&Effect" nature.

The use of "Aiki" allows you to experience "Ju".

Last edited by Randall Lim : 11-19-2010 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 11-20-2010, 01:15 AM   #84
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

What Randall is calling Aiki here I call it... Ju.

Last edited by Flintstone : 11-20-2010 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 11-20-2010, 08:08 AM   #85
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
What Randall is calling Aiki here I call it... Ju.
I agree.

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Old 11-20-2010, 08:19 AM   #86
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
The concept of "Aiki" is not limited to our Aikido techniques alone.

"Aiki" is present in any technique that allows a person to experience "Ju" with an attack.

For example: If your opponent pushes you, & you use his forward force/momentum (together with a little of your own force) to break his balance, you are actually using "Aiki" to experience "Ju" for yourself.

If a person truly wishes to experience "Ju" in his techniques, he has to use "Aiki".

"Ju" & "Aiki" are very closely inter-related. Their relationship is that of a "Cause&Effect" nature.

The use of "Aiki" allows you to experience "Ju".
Ahhh, no. I don't have to use "aiki" to experience "ju". Using your example, I am using the "ju" principle from beginning to end.

If that is what "aiki" is (putting that little extra force behind my technique) then the discussions on this board for the past 8 years have been a waste of time. You just defined it.

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Old 11-20-2010, 09:21 PM   #87
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Ahhh, no. I don't have to use "aiki" to experience "ju". Using your example, I am using the "ju" principle from beginning to end.

If that is what "aiki" is (putting that little extra force behind my technique) then the discussions on this board for the past 8 years have been a waste of time. You just defined it.
In my opinion, "Aiki" is not about "putting that little extra force behind my technique". That experience would be "Ju".

"Aiki" principles help in the experience of "Ju".
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:11 AM   #88
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
In my opinion, "Aiki" is not about "putting that little extra force behind my technique". That experience would be "Ju".

"Aiki" principles help in the experience of "Ju".
So, how does it work?
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:24 AM   #89
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
So, how does it work?
As long as you are able to blend or harmonise with Uke's force/energy/momentum/Ki ("Aiki"), and then effortlessly break his balance & counter ("Ju").

"Aiki" being the "Cause", and "Ju" being the "Effect".

This is what I mean when I say that the secret to achieve "Ju" is through "Aiki".

You may not agree with me, but at least understand what I mean.
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:54 AM   #90
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Understood. That's Ju from beginning to end.
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Old 11-21-2010, 08:32 AM   #91
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

At the end of the class our teacher sometimes let us do some grappling, kind of jiujitsu just to become stronger, it is good to train like that, everybody enjoys it a lot
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Old 11-21-2010, 09:57 PM   #92
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Understood. That's Ju from beginning to end.
Then, in your opinion, what exactly is "Aiki"??
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Old 11-22-2010, 01:52 PM   #93
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I will make no attempts to define aiki but feel free to use the search button and you will find a lot of information. Just be prepared to be on the computer reading this stuff for a long time.

Something to think of Randall....why, if one can only experience ju through the use of aiki, does DR have a DR Jujutsu curriculum & a DR Aikijujutsu curriculum? Wouldn't their jujutsu be impossible to do without aiki if there is this cause & effect relationship? Just something to ponder.

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Old 11-22-2010, 03:24 PM   #94
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
Then, in your opinion, what exactly is "Aiki"??
Already stated MHO before in the forum. Not mainstream I must admit, so I'm not surprised we don't think the same here. Not saying that your Aiki won't improve your Ju, just that it has little in common with it.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:03 AM   #95
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
I will make no attempts to define aiki but feel free to use the search button and you will find a lot of information. Just be prepared to be on the computer reading this stuff for a long time.

Something to think of Randall....why, if one can only experience ju through the use of aiki, does DR have a DR Jujutsu curriculum & a DR Aikijujutsu curriculum? Wouldn't their jujutsu be impossible to do without aiki if there is this cause & effect relationship? Just something to ponder.
I guess, just because something does not include an element in its name, does not mean that this something does not have that element.

In this case, just because DR Jujitsu does not include "Aiki" in its name, does not mean that DR Jujitsu does not have "Aiki" in it.

I guess both names refer to the same thing. ,
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:26 AM   #96
Cliff Judge
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Something to think of Randall....why, if one can only experience ju through the use of aiki, does DR have a DR Jujutsu curriculum & a DR Aikijujutsu curriculum? Wouldn't their jujutsu be impossible to do without aiki if there is this cause & effect relationship? Just something to ponder.
I don't think he's saying that results are impossible, just that its not quite RIGHT if not done with Aiki. More like you can see / feel the difference when a master does a technique with Aiki vs a beginner muscling it, or someone in the middle doing something in between.

I also don't think the fact that Takeda created a set of kata and called them the "Aikijujutsu" series means that the study of Aiki in Daito ryu is confined to the stuff on that scroll. O Sensei found the techniques of the first scroll to be sufficient vehicles for exploration of Aiki, after all.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:24 PM   #97
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

DR jujutsu & aikijujutsu are not different names for the same thing. They are in fact...different. I think the disconnect here is that what some aikidoka think is aiki is really just ju. Don't take my word for it but research what DR aiki is/looks like and then compare it to aikido's aiki.

You may discover what you are calling aiki isn't what DR calls aiki & is in fact just another extrapolation of the ju principle. Just my 2 cents.

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Old 11-24-2010, 12:28 AM   #98
Randall Lim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
DR jujutsu & aikijujutsu are not different names for the same thing. They are in fact...different. I think the disconnect here is that what some aikidoka think is aiki is really just ju. Don't take my word for it but research what DR aiki is/looks like and then compare it to aikido's aiki.

You may discover what you are calling aiki isn't what DR calls aiki & is in fact just another extrapolation of the ju principle. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for your input. I have always thought that they were both the same thing. Just one being the shorter form of the other.

Anyway, it is good that we are open for discussion.

However, I do remember reading from somewhere that Judo's founder Dr. Jigoro Kano once mentioned after watching an Aikido demonstration by O'Sensei that THAT was indeed true Budo.

Maybe Kano had been searching for the secret to easily achieve "Ju" in his Judo, but could not until he saw Aikido. Kano in fact invited O'Sensei to join his Kodokan, be did not because O'Sensei had already established his own school.

What do you think of this??

Last edited by Randall Lim : 11-24-2010 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:43 AM   #99
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

That Kano thought aiki was a superior body skill than "just" ju.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:16 AM   #100
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I think that there is a big difference between reading Kanos statement about aikido like "aikido is THE true budo" and "aikido is A true budo"

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
However, I do remember reading from somewhere that Judo's founder Dr. Jigoro Kano once mentioned after watching an Aikido demonstration by O'Sensei that THAT was indeed true Budo.
.....
What do you think of this??
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