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Old 08-02-2010, 04:14 PM   #1
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Shihonage Ukemi

Yoshinkan is generally known for it's effective judo-influenced ukemi. Within the Yoshinkan, however, I have seen two completely different ways of taking ukemi from a shihonage pin.

This first found here at the 0:20 - 0:30 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G66spr_o6Wg

The second here at the 0:24 - 0:28 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7...eature=related

Which do you think is the better approach for safely taking ukemi from the shihonage pin at full speed - and why?

...rab
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:03 PM   #2
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Neither - if either of nage in the two clips had turned out, perhaps half-way through the technique, intending suddenly to break uke's arm, uke could do nothing about it, because he is committed to taking a back fall. Uke should turn towards nage, with his head against his own arm, "intending" to take a forward roll/tobu ukemi. IF and only IF tori clearly does a shihonage without bridging the arm, uke can then "sit up" into a back ukemi.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 08-02-2010, 08:03 PM   #3
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Neither - if either of nage in the two clips had turned out, perhaps half-way through the technique, intending suddenly to break uke's arm, uke could do nothing about it, because he is committed to taking a back fall. Uke should turn towards nage, with his head against his own arm, "intending" to take a forward roll/tobu ukemi. IF and only IF tori clearly does a shihonage without bridging the arm, uke can then "sit up" into a back ukemi.

Ellis Amdur
Thank you Ellis - I have your fine video and I recall now that you highlighted this in particular on it. I'll have to go back and review.

What's your general take on the idea of taking ukemi on your shoulder blades as in the first example? It strikes me as insane but I've been told by those more knowledgeable than I that it's actually more protective during a fast, hard shihonage. Any validity to that?

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 08-02-2010 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:15 PM   #4
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Rabih - What kind of ukemi. I strongly advocate that rolls go over lats/shoulder blade/small of back, rather than shoulder joint and hip joint.

If you mean taking a fall directly backwards, and folding in your shoulder blades to protect your spine? (I'm guessing here that this might be what you mean), don't think I'd like to do that.

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Old 08-02-2010, 08:44 PM   #5
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
If you mean taking a fall directly backwards, and folding in your shoulder blades to protect your spine? (I'm guessing here that this might be what you mean), don't think I'd like to do that.

Best
Ellis Amdur
I think we're talking about the same thing. Essentially - taking ukemi from shihonage by "doing the limbo." The first part of your body to make contact is your outstretched arm followed by your upper back/shoulder blade. Your butt never hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G66spr_o6Wg


Can any Yoshi guys out there explain why the shihonage ukemi is sometimes practiced this way?
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:56 PM   #6
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I'm not fan of either. In both they are giving up their connection to nage. :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8rbCaruxyU

I think the video I posted is more like what Ellis was describing. You turn your body with the nage, to let yourself down for either a gradual wide-legged decent to the mat, or you are lined up for a variety of forward rolls, or a breakfall.

In the video you posted,I see why they do it, but for my purposes I don't see why they give up their connection to nage so easily.

Last edited by RED : 08-02-2010 at 08:59 PM.

MM
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:02 PM   #7
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
I think we're talking about the same thing. Essentially - taking ukemi from shihonage by "doing the limbo." The first part of your body to make contact is your outstretched arm followed by your upper back/shoulder blade. Your butt never hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G66spr_o6Wg

Can any Yoshi guys out there explain why the shihonage ukemi is sometimes practiced this way?
That video you posted is interesting. I'm not a fan of doing that for shihonage. But that is basically the first stage for a type of kick-up ukemi, which is like used for direct irimi and the like.

MM
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:44 PM   #8
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I don't like either of those videos. I guess I do it how it is described by a few other people. I put my head towards my arm for support and turn slightly toward nage. Makes ukemi easier and I can take a breakfall if needed. Even if you don't take the breakfall, the ukemi is more roll-y instead of plopping right down on your back.

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Old 08-02-2010, 10:09 PM   #9
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I don't like either of those videos. I guess I do it how it is described by a few other people. I put my head towards my arm for support and turn slightly toward nage. Makes ukemi easier and I can take a breakfall if needed. Even if you don't take the breakfall, the ukemi is more roll-y instead of plopping right down on your back.
I like the ability to recover and get back up into nage if the shihonage fails. I can't see how you can recover when falling straight backwards. I might be missing something though?

MM
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:25 PM   #10
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

i like to grab my partner and bring them down with me!
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:04 AM   #11
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

I can't really contribute to this discussion because the ukemi in yoshinkan is different to what we do. Because technique is applied in a different way.

My question: Is there ukemi possible in a comparable way like shown here?

aah sorry, jus saw the uke of yamada doing it this way when thrown the second time.

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 08-03-2010 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:14 AM   #12
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Why does ukemi always lead to falling down?
Why fall down at all?
Is there a reason...not to stay standing up?
Why allow the elbow to be drawn out from the body at all?
Why allow the arm to be placed across Ukes body line at all?
Can someone explain that?

Why not teach people to do aiki to neutralize aikido?
Neutralize the nage's defense...then you can do whatever you like as uke; including standing up, and staring them in the face. I have taught people to stop Shihan in Daito ryu and aikido by just being them. Without even lifting a finger to defend themselves, the technical waza of both arts were neutralized by the core skill in both arts; their one true brilliance...aiki.

What was the origin of practicing these somewhat marginal locks? As Kevin, Don, Ellis, George...myself and an ever increasing number of others continue to point out; stand up locks really are not that effective in the first place. I have confidence that the older, more experienced, Judo and koryu guys who were the original deshi needed no advice from us.
They got what we get...going in.
Shiho nage in particular is very marginal. As Tomiki pointed out in AJ "Shiho nage is a very unusual lock. Just look at it and study its form. You can't get Judo men to bend their arm that way." So why did they get "bought in" to these marginal locks? Didn't Mochizuki, the one time potential inheritor of aikido, and a true powerhouse, state that "The locks were meant to condition the body?" That alone makes more sense out of their unusual nature played against a culture immersed in Koryu jujutsu. So how did these men who saw what we saw, get so bought in? By the old mans aiki, that's how. I believe that the smart ones spent the rest of their time trying to get what he had...aiki...by practicing them for conditioning, and not by learning yet another way to bend an arm. Hence Tomiki's ki trick demonstrations of holding out an arm and saying.."Try to lock me!"
So Rab...maybe there are other things you need to be considering.

By using aiki to condition the body...on both sides of the equation uke/nage, both parties can be learning very powerful things; learning to put on ever more powerful locks and throws as their partner is learning to cancel out their best efforts. The training then builds and builds and people get shihan level power as Mudansha. And its a hell of a lot of fun without so much wear and tear on the body.

If we can agree that kyu ranked people can learn to stop these sorts of locks applied by Shihans, then can we not see that percentagewise we only need to occasionally fall down to let nage learn to complete, but that for the larger portions of practice uke can be learning to neutralize and save their bodies from needing to take falls, and that Nage can indeed learn to apply more powerful locks. This is the sort of thing I am increasingly doing with Aikido teachers and it appears to be received well.

While it may sound unusual as an approach, once again it appears those old guys had nothing on us. I have heard that Yamaguchi used to also engage in that kind of practice with his own private group, away from prying eyes, as well. I couple that with my being told by someone who got their nidan from Ueshiba Morihei himself that they used to practice pushing on each other and cancelling out things...right up into the 60's, but it was not done in general practice.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-03-2010 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:34 AM   #13
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why does ukemi always lead to falling down?
Why fall down at all?
Is there a reason...not to stay standing up?
Why allow the elbow to be drawn out from the body at all?
Why allow the arm to be placed across Ukes body line at all?
Can someone explain that?
Cuz we don't know any better?
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:36 AM   #14
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... I have heard that Yamaguchi used to also engage in that kind of practice with his own private group, away from prying eyes, as well. ...
Yes.
And do you know whether those students who practiced this with him, have kept on doing it. Or whether they teach it?

If not, why not?
If they do, is their aikido different?
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:46 AM   #15
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Rabih….I agree with much of what Ellis stated. However more than anything I try to stay with the technique as much as possible and not predetermine my response. I definitely don’t allow myself to be extended though and I position my body to counter either upright or on the ground. I also don’t take impact to my joints or bone.
My reasons for falling down /cooperating to a certain degree are:
- To allow my partner to practice the principle(s) we are working on
- Allow myself to feel gaps in my partners technique and have opportunities to counter
- Work on my body structure and flexibility
But as my partner becomes more versed in what we are doing, I don’t give myself up as much. Neutralizing my partner while we are working on certain aspects can be counter-productive to our mutual learning. There is a time for practicing neutralization though...in my very limited opinion.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:52 AM   #16
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why does ukemi always lead to falling down?
Why fall down at all?
Is there a reason...not to stay standing up?
Why allow the elbow to be drawn out from the body at all?
Why allow the arm to be placed across Ukes body line at all?
Can someone explain that?
Dan,

I totally agree that we should be learning how to neutralize attacks via aiki. It makes perfect sense. A crude analogy being learning to make posion without being taught the antidote. Not a really good idea.

That said - don't you think there is still a place for traditional ukemi in that most people on the street will not be trained fighters or aiki masters able to neutralize a well executed technique? Therefore, there is some benefit for shi'te (nage) to learn how to take the opponent to the ground. Without a cooperative uke willing to go the ground, it makes the kata training difficult. I think there is also a benefit for uke learning how to properly fall to avoid injury for those times when you are not able to neutralize the attack.

Overall, your point is well is taken and I do agree we should be training "aiki ukemi" - which is non-existent in today's Aikido as far as I can see.

...rab

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 08-03-2010 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:06 AM   #17
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Depends on the situation, and it helps to think of ukemi as a counter.

We usually turn towards the tori and forward roll to standing, as Ellis describes. Sometimes, and in a worse-case scenario, if uke is late to respond or the lock is on the elbow, we need to ratchet fall.

Alternatively, and time permitting, you could place your head along your shoulder and pivot away from tori. This movement places the original uke as tori in tembin nage, which often leads back into shiho nage.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:13 AM   #18
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Dan,

I totally agree that we should be learning how to neutralize attacks via aiki. It makes perfect sense. A crude analogy being learning to make posion without being taught the antidote. Not a really good idea.

That said - don't you think there is still a place for traditional ukemi in that most people on the street will not be trained fighters or aiki masters able to neutralize a well executed technique? Therefore, there is some benefit for shi'te (nage) to learn how to take the opponent to the ground. Without a cooperative uke willing to go the ground, it makes the kata training difficult. I think there is also a benefit for uke learning how to properly fall to avoid injury for those times when you are not able to neutralize the attack.

Overall, your point is well is taken and I do agree we should be training "aiki ukemi" - which is non-existent in today's Aikido as far as I can see.

...rab
Hi Bud
Of course I trhink you need to take ukemi. That's why I wrote this in the post silly...
Quote:
then can we not see that percentagewise we only need to occasionally fall down to let nage learn to complete, but that for the larger portions of practice uke can be learning to neutralize and save their bodies from needing to take falls, and that Nage can indeed learn to apply more powerful locks
To flip that back on ya, what the hell is the point of always falling down or always going with it?
Having a balanced position on these things means exactly that; a balanced position, a seamless whole.
Learning/ taking ukemi
learning to have IP/aiki
Learning to use aiki to both do and to neutralize (I am not referring to externally countering waza with counter waza yet)
Then learning to counter waza with waza...through ukemi
Then learing to neutralize and counter waza witrh aiki and technique- now joined.
It's a total package.
I find it intriguing that my own early instincts about ukemi turns out to have been not only spot on, but a behind the scenes practice method of some of the experts. Made a lot of sense to me twenty years ago when no one else was talking about it...and even more now. It was a more complete picture of doing and having aiki in Aikido to me. Apparently the teachers I train with agree. Makes for some truly profound and powerful aikido
I think it's all about balance-yes pun intented.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-03-2010 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:24 AM   #19
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

@Maggie and Ashley, I think Carsten is right in that the Yoshinkan execution may be different - especially since the technique being discussed here is the shihonage pin - not the throw.

Since shi'te (nage) controls uke all the way to the ground, there is no way to do a forward roll or "kotegaeshi" breakfall (hyaku ukemi) if the technique is done properly.

The problem occurs when the technique is not done correctly and uke is put in a position where injury might occur to their arm. That's why Ellis trains his students to anticipate taking a "kotegaeshi" breakfall until you are at a point in the technique where you know you will not be injured (and the breakfall isn't an option). Then you take a backward breakfall (koho ukemi) by dropping your butt to the matt (similar to video #2 in the OP).

...rab

For those who have Ellis's "Ukemi from the Ground Up," he starts this discussion at the 1 hour 15 minute mark.

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 08-03-2010 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:26 AM   #20
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Bud
Of course I trhink you need to take ukemi. That's why I wrote this in the post silly...
Yup, you're right - sorry! I need to slow down. Thanks for pointing that out - makes perfect sense and I completely agree with the logic.

Looking forward to learning me some aiki ukemi in a couple weeks.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:52 AM   #21
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
@Maggie and Ashley, I think Carsten is right in that the Yoshinkan execution may be different - especially since the technique being discussed here is the shihonage pin - not the throw.

For those who have Ellis's "Ukemi from the Ground Up," he starts this discussion at the 1 hour 15 minute mark.
For shihonage pin, I'd still react differently. I mean remain connected to nage when I am taken to a pin. I'm still seeing room in the video, at least in theory, for a softer, wider fall. I'd like to try and work out with this specific shihonage for the perspective. It is frustrating that I can't, I can't really speculate beyond that I prefer different ukemi. Without actually applying the technique, it makes things hard to speculate.

Last edited by RED : 08-03-2010 at 09:54 AM.

MM
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:58 AM   #22
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
For shihonage throw, I'd still react differently. I'm still seeing room in the video, at least in theory, for a softer, wider fall. I'd like to try and work out with this specific shihonage for the perspective. It is frustrating that I can't, I can't really speculate beyond that I prefer different ukemi. Without actually applying the technique, it makes things hard to speculate.
That's a good point and it is another reason that getting out to other dojo within your art and other dojo outside the art, opens our minds to other possibilities.
If you are lucky, you can get people to allow you to explore options in throws/counters etc. There are some ukemi you will never be able to take from certain approaches.
This is one of the reasons that more learned people continue to question many locks and throws and positioning within their arts. It comes from a broader experience base. It also allows you to look at and truly understand in a more non-prejudicial manner, the strengths in your own art and others.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:07 AM   #23
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I'd like to try and work out with this specific shihonage for the perspective. It is frustrating that I can't, I can't really speculate beyond that I prefer different ukemi. Without actually applying the technique, it makes things hard to speculate.
Next time you're in the Boston area, come visit the Goshinkan in Newton. You are welcome anytime.

Or drop by any Yoshinkan dojo in your area. The shihonage pin is one of our basic techniques (kihon waza) so you should find a uniform approach to its execution at any Yoshinkan dojo.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:31 AM   #24
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I like the ability to recover and get back up into nage if the shihonage fails. I can't see how you can recover when falling straight backwards. I might be missing something though?
If you stay on the balls of your feet instead of being flatt footed and you really push your center up, you can come back up easier. Sensei likes to use me to demonstrate and I get put in that situation so he can demonstrate why you should stay on the balls of your feet (for the sole reason you mentioned- you can come back up or walk around backwards if nage decides to walk you around)

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Old 08-03-2010, 01:15 PM   #25
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Re: Shihonage Ukemi

For the first variation shown it is required that nage have actual control over uke. Its probably the most gentle way to take ukemi from shihonage but is somewhat difficult as uke needs to be at least a little be flexible and nage, again, has to have control of uke. When this happens (as is taught for this basic technique, to include ukemi), uke and nage maintain a very high level of connection with each other and nage can basically set uke down as gently or rudely as desired (there are three angles for nage to take uke down).

Key points: keeping head connected to your own elbow to prevent shoulder seperation, nage should have uke's elbow fully extended to get actual control (not just uke falling down for nage)...this kind of control will pop uke up on his/her toes because the hips are popped up and the shoulders are extended back and down as much as uke can stand before compromising balance. The nage in the first video is doing a different variation of shihonage so its not being shown in the exact original intent...in case there is some confusion on that. The above-mentioned compromised balance continues to the mat...which nage maintaining control all the way down vice uke doing a step-back or sit-back breakfall and chasing uke down to the mat. Nage controls uke's decent because nage has stolen uke's balance. The pin then should be the continuation of this motion, uke's shoulders and elbow pinned, face up, to the mat and energy projected forward which keeps uke's hips popped up thus taking uke's feet out of the equation. I always thought it a temporary pin, but after trying it in jujitsu class as a hold down it worked better than I thought (held down while uke was trying to bump out). Hard (for me) to explain, but I'll see if I can find a good clip of it..including the pin.

The first clip also shows a sit-back breakfall version.

*Important note: the first clip is't to be considered what Yoshinkan is practicing these days...its from a derivative and hasn't been taught at Yoshinkan Honbu since before I was born.

The second clip, I'm not that familiar with...I know it from that clip actually. I think its Ando Sensei, so that's probably more close to what is taught at Yoshinkan these days.

Last edited by Adam Huss : 08-03-2010 at 01:17 PM.

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