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Old 12-15-2006, 05:48 PM   #1
Ellis Amdur
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Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Terry Dobson told me that Ueshiba Morihei used to approach him sometimes and throw him in miraculous ways, and then say, "Now your turn." And he would carefully, ever so carefully, gesture in the correct technique and Osensei would creakily ease himself down to the mat, saying that he had to keep doing ukemi - it kept him young.
This came to mind reading some of the other threads which suggest that, with proper training, one is virtually "unthrowable," and therefore, learning to take ukemi can devolve into a dead-end tributary rather than a mainstream to both martial effectiveness and higher learning of ki/kokyu skills.
I agree with that - yet - noting that in traditional martial arts, the instructor or senior ALWAYS took uke's role, I ask if there is a contradiction between these two positions. I think not. If you have the ability to stop/counter/control any technique, you also have the ability to offer just enough opening so that the student will execute the technique properly at the peak of their ability. In other words, beyond the ability to stop a technique is, as a teacher, guiding a technique. Templating it, in other words. And as they get better, you give them a little more. And, particularly with weapons, this hones your own skills even further. I can create more dangerous situations for myself so my peak skills increase in a way that merely stopping or crushing my student would not. (I'm talking principal here - not directing this at any of the individuals who have posted about absorbing or stopping technique because I very likely have not seen the way they teach or the context - I'm talking about my own).
I think of watching judo teachers - adults - teaching small children. They "throw" themselves into the technique in such perfect form that the child's body conforms to the throw that they, only in theory, are accomplishing. Bit by bit, the student's body finds that line on it's own because they are used to it as the right line.
Which leads to yet another dilemma in aikido. It is fair to say that many students are taught ukemi to conform to the TEACHER'S ideal when the latter throws. Taking ukemi for many shihan at honbu entailed, on my part, divining what they wanted - not only in the attack, but in conforming to what they wanted to show/do.
It is easy to be trained into believing one is still moving with integrity when one is not. One can be forceful, strong, graceful and delusional all at the same time. In other words, one of the pitfalls of the revolution in martial arts that was Daito-ryu and it's off-shoot aikido, was the reversal of nage-and-uke roles. Which can often result in the dojo becoming a petri dish for the teacher's gradiosity.
Interesting that Ueshiba made the attempt to keep some perspective.
Finally, as I've suggested elsewhere, I believe that ukemi within the aikido context originally, or at least, potentially, had two elements which may have been lost to many.
1. That taking ukemi WAS a ki/kokyu training in building up the attachment points of the muscles and tendons - AND - in absorbing power and running it through the body. (One cannot counter a GOOD technique merely by going soft and blending - one needs to redirect and/or absorb
2. Training in instant responsiveness - Kuroda Tetsuzan uses ukemi (which he calls ukimi - floating body) to teach how to react without any "interferance" of any body part when a weapon approaches. I think it is possible that this element is inherent in aikido - although, unless one is consciously training to develop sensitivity to this end, one is just a rag doll.

Best

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Old 12-16-2006, 07:42 AM   #2
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Dear Ellis,

I've read your posts here and elsewhere on aikido ukemi and the reversal of roles of teacher and student. I'm curious as to one thing however.

I know that when I demonstrate a technique in front of the class I take the role of nage. I also know that if I am practicing with an individual student and trying to get them to learn a specific technique, I prefer the role of uke where I will, exactly as you describe the judo teachers in your above post, throw myself in such a way as the student learns the correct throw etc..

So here's my question. Given that Takeda Sokaku travelled around and taught large numbers of people in seminar type situations, could your hypothesised teacher-student role reversal with regards to ukemi be nothing more than expediency in teaching a technique or techniques to a large number of people at one time? In other words, rather than uke for 10 relative beginners in a one-to-one way simply demonstrate the technique as nage and have them practice what they just saw?

Could it simply be down to class size and nothing more than that. No grand theoretical reason for reversing the roles, just a practical solution to a teaching situation. I don't doubt that both Takeda and Ueshiba took the role of uke when teaching on a one-to-one basis, similar to your description of him taking ukemi from Terry Dobson.

Cheers

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 12-16-2006, 11:00 AM   #3
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Mike - It may well be as simple as that in part. The seminar format does not lend itself, as you say, to taking ukemi for the students. Add to that all the descriptions of Takeda being at a level of true paranoia in regards to being vulnerable to anyone. (For example, berating his son for walking in front of a personal friend who was a sword expert, because the guy could suddenly take it in his head to strangle Tokimune, or when he went to visit Ueshiba, pulling the table next to the wall, and sitting so no one could get behind him, etc.). Whatever the merits of all of this, it's hard to imagine Takeda deliberately creating an opening.
I think that, as a corallary, as he taught this way, his students did too. Let's imagine his method was showing the technique and giving instruction not only on the technique, but also on whatever exercises were necessary to develop the ki/kokyu. Some people - like Ueshiba - get really strong. But the potential pitfall would be a) grandiosity b) that the students are taught to tank, under the illusion that falling that way "has to happen."

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Old 12-16-2006, 12:15 PM   #4
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Good points, Ellis. Not comparing myself to Takeda or Ueshiba, but frankly I cannot teach ki/kokyu things without feeling what the person is doing, so I have to be on the receiving end. If it was just tecnique and not the inner workings of the skills, I could simply watch.

In terms of being "unthrowable", that's a situational thing. Granted, here in the West where these skills are virtually unknown and "magical" appearing, it's a good trick to show-off; the same skill is not so unknown in Asia at all. I'm completely and calmly sure beyond any doubt that Ueshiba, Tohei, and many, many others could stop a throw with their jin if they wanted to.... BUT they were smart enough to know that such skills only work against amateurs and therefore learning Ukemi is more important than not.

When I was at Shaner Sensei's workshop last weekend, he used a general description that I enjoyed (I'm interested in a lot of the different descriptions of the basic principles because each one helps in developing a fuller appreciation of the concept). He said that when he was in contact with an opponent (Uke), he envisioned that he was the controlling part of a 4-legged animal. That's a good description, although like most of the descriptions, it's not complete in itself. If you are in contact with an opponent, connect up mentally so that you are the one controlling the whole animal and respond to the whole animal's attempt to move.... you'll find that you can't be thrown very easily, with a little bit of practice. It's one approach and I think it's a good one.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 12-16-2006, 12:33 PM   #5
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
I think that, as a corallary, as he taught this way, his students did too. Let's imagine his method was showing the technique and giving instruction not only on the technique, but also on whatever exercises were necessary to develop the ki/kokyu. Some people - like Ueshiba - get really strong. But the potential pitfall would be a) grandiosity b) that the students are taught to tank, under the illusion that falling that way "has to happen."
Forgive my Englishness but what exactly does the Americanism 'to tank' mean? I think I know but just wanted to clarify.

Cheers

Mike

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Old 12-16-2006, 12:53 PM   #6
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote:
Forgive my Englishness but what exactly does the Americanism 'to tank' mean? I think I know but just wanted to clarify.

Cheers

Mike
It's when you take a nice pretty fall for a crap throw so that it looks good.

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Old 12-16-2006, 12:54 PM   #7
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

To "tank" is to take ukemi "as if" you are thrown. You throw yourself. Sometimes the teacher is aware of it and expects it because s/he sees himself as so potent and deadly that the student must move that way to survive. Other times, they are using the student as a "tool," to illustrate a principal. Still others actually believe they have the magic power, and that, with a wave of their hand, people simply fall.

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Old 12-16-2006, 10:20 PM   #8
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
Whatever the merits of all of this, it's hard to imagine Takeda deliberately creating an opening.
Without taking away from several good points-I'm never one to throw out good teaching or skills due to a man's possible personality deficiencies-particularly from hearsey.
He did claim a positive style of movement and later-just as Ueshiba did- change to a more self defense model-as stated by him personally in his published interview. To not leave openings is hardly anything new in Budo. In the end, he did create some fairly amazing and unusually skilled men.
There is a training method behind the "leave no opening" that is not theory and clearly expressed a way to train, move and respond. It is cogent and has depth and by all accounts his own skills and Sagawa's demonstrated exactly that.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
I think that, as a corollary, as he taught this way, his students did too. Let's imagine his method was showing the technique and giving instruction not only on the technique, but also on whatever exercises were necessary to develop the ki/kokyu. Some people - like Ueshiba -- did get really strong. But the potential pitfall would be a) grandiosity b) that the students are taught to tank, under the illusion that falling that way "has to happen."
Hmmm…are we talking aiki arts only?
With those two the potential for "grandiosity" is explicable in their preeminent skills. Whether or not it is valid is another discussion. I think its a bit shortsighted to discuss their lives and not account and pay heed to the many -real world- exhibitions of considerable skills that had nothing to do with their later students and evolving arts.
From many sources and different arts. There abilities were transparent and undeniable. They (qualifier…they…) didn't need to have guys tank. Takeda more than Ueshiba took on strangers other than his own Uke's routinely and by every account was ridiculously powerful. Odd that that phrase kept coming up.

I never judge them by the standards of their later day students Hell Ueshiba was pissed when he used to come back to the oldhombo. Telling everyone that they were not doing "his" Aikido.
Then, as now, they dismissed……..even him.
Again what were/are the colors of the truth behind that as well? Who knows.

As an aside you told a story of Ueshiba in Kanos dojo. With some guy saying "See that old man? Go try to throw him."
Which leaves me to assume he was saying no one could throw Ueshiba. I couple that, with the Fighting Spirit of Japan quotes I posted a couple of years ago, regarding the 6th dan who they said "could not be thrown". The Aikijujutsu master who could not be thrown
I end with Takeda's many exhibitions where he demonstrated that very thing on all comers.
And in the new age Sagawa who was recorded as extremely potent and unthrowable. And possibly the best in the modern era.

The "power" they exhibited- which lent credibility to the earlier accounts was morphed by Ueshiba's students themselves. Possibly due to their knowing...there were no openings and they started to do that wierd stuff you see in the later videos of him.
But again the earlier accounts were valid.....that they were unthrowable.
Who has their eyes on that goal? Who has a training method to get there that is demonstrable and teachable outside of technique? And can do it without ten years of flopping around taking Ukemi and "catching air." It doesn't take any serious length of time just to learn Ukemi. the rest should be training a bujutsu body. Not rolling around every week
As a model I guess one has to decide which one to choose.
Being a part of the learning to fall for a significant portion of your training career back and forth. Or being --apart- from that. And spending a significant portion of your training learning the ways to build connections in your body to…not be thrown in the first place.
and that has nothing to do with Ukemi-other then largely-not completely reducing the need for it.

Cheers
And happy holidays
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-16-2006 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 12-16-2006, 10:38 PM   #9
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Dan - a couple of misreads of my writing. 1) I was not criticizing Takeda in the "no opening" comment. That would be boring and silly. I'm simply noting that his described character is one that would, for example, not allow him to teach in the manner that my koryu teachers taught me. Further, I'm not saying anything about superiority or inferiority here - it's phenomenology. Takenouchi-ryu and Araki-ryu are taught one way - and produce a different type of fighter than Daito-ryu. However, I've seen other brilliant teachers whose revolutionary method of teaching - somewhat off the beaten path - leads to a regress of students' skills over the generations. (My 1st xingyi teacher is a perfect example).2) I was not talking about either Takeda or Ueshiba in my reference to grandiosity, even though the latter, in particular, could have that adjective applied to him. I was referring to the products of their teaching - many of their students, who become "frogs in a well" - looking at the disc of blue at the mouth of the well and believing they can see the entire universe. 3) I was not judging or criticizing Takeda or Ueshiba by their students - I was looking at their teaching methods and noting if that method could lend itself to the development of the type of successors it seems to. 4) I SUPPORT the idea of "unthrowable" - read the 2nd paragraph again. "Unthrowable" - "uncuttable" - "unbludgeonable" leads to the ability to truly provide ukemi as a teaching device. I could not take the ukemi I do with weapons at the intensity we practice if my students could cut me (often - I'm not God and they're catching up anyway). And yet, the kata require that I put myself at total 100% vulnerability, at various points - otherwise they won't learn.
Given that I not only agreed with most of your generally voiced thesis, but provided a link with extant koryu training where most don't see it - ----- happy holidays to you too.
Ellis

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 12-16-2006 at 10:40 PM.

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Old 12-16-2006, 11:02 PM   #10
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Gees..
Who gets to be the arbitor of whether you were being too obscure. Or I was being obtuse.
In that event teachers take Ukemi in Daito ryu. Just depends where you are and who you know.
And in MMA its part and parcel of the whole game. Just doesn't look anything like Ukemi. You're too busy fighting back. Leather does wonders.
Of course there is a point with playing the uke roll and training resistence and what it does for them. But the end goals should be ever increasing to an eventual stalemate. An ever increasing equality. An end game if you will. Not the continual energy-exchange work you often see in Aikido. Thats a self-fulfilling middle game. With no true higher level except for the same middle game now... played with increased (some would say artificial or unusable) sensitivity to the same exchange.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-16-2006 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 12-16-2006, 11:19 PM   #11
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

I utterly, unequivocably, and absolutely agree with your last post, Dan. And interestingly, within true kata, even with the designation of uke and tori, that dynamic tension you describe, can be achieved. (and freestyle contributes to that end).
All bases covered.

Ellis

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 12-16-2006 at 11:33 PM.

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Old 12-17-2006, 10:26 AM   #12
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
To "tank" is to take ukemi "as if" you are thrown. You throw yourself. Sometimes the teacher is aware of it and expects it because s/he sees himself as so potent and deadly that the student must move that way to survive. Other times, they are using the student as a "tool," to illustrate a principal. Still others actually believe they have the magic power, and that, with a wave of their hand, people simply fall.

best
Thought so I also find it interesting that I did this to an extent when I was a kyu grade, not because my teach requested or required it, but because (in-line with what has been said elsewhere) I simply knew no better, I responded in a very sensitive way to slight movements on his part, I can recall at one time him extending his arm for an atemi to my lower abdomen, at no point was he ever going to strike me but I knew that had he chosen to he could have and so I found myself jumping into a rather projected forward roll. I find that now, being much better at aikido and much better at 'ki' (well Tohei style Ki training) I wouldn't move like that, he'd probably actually have to hit me to make me move like that. The better I get at aikido the better I become as an uke. I'm also less likely to freely give my centre away while being an uke. Nage has to earn it now, I don't hand it to them (unless I'm being the previously mentioned uke-teacher and showing a student a technique). This of course isn't much of a problem when I uke for my teacher, he may be 64 but he's still physically in incredibly good shape (irrespective of his technical ability). When he visited us in Aberdeen last weekend I was his uke for ten exhausting minutes at the end of a lesson he taught. I only caught glimpses of stunned grins on the faces of my students whilst flying through the air, I suppose to them it must've been fun watching Mike Sensei getting thrown around like a rag doll

One very interesting thing he said to me about that afterwards was (paraphrasing): "To them you're the guy who stands at the front of the class and dishes out this sort of stuff, it's important for them to see that you can take what you dish out, more so even. An aikido sensei should always be able to take at least as much as, if not more, than he can dish out"

A few days later Ellis started this thread

Think I might have to get me a copy of that Ukemi from the ground up DVD and see how it compares to 'what sensei says'

Thanks Ellis

Mike

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Old 12-17-2006, 09:41 PM   #13
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Caught between two worlds

I don't count the time I spent doing Judo as a kid as martial art experience. When I started I believed the smallest-can-win blurb and continued on for some time. Being the smallest, of course, I never won, nor did I learn. Almost from the beginning, I realised that only the big and strong learn. Basically, you can only begin to learn in Judo once you begin to be able to throw. You have to stick around long enough so that you gather a little skill and become able to throw the beginners. Once you are able to throw a few people, you slowly begin to make sense of the movement. If you are always thrown, you just can't even begin to learn Judo. A sudden growth spurt saw me change from being the small kid to being the tall lanky kid - neither are good for Judo. On leaving skool I discovered Aikido and instantly liked it because I could throw people, but only because they allowed me to. But still, I learned plenty - indeed, in Judo I had learned barely anything at all - the teaching was generally hopeless at the best of times. Rather, they showed you something, you tried it a couple of times, then it was back to full-on randori. Despite having a rough deal with Judo, I have always remained suspicious of Aikido's methods - even though now it is my main art. For a start, I don't recall learning ukemi in Judo apart from rolling about as a kid but could always take being thrown hard; throw people hard in Aikido and some accuse you of being nasty, of having some kind of complex. Anyway, in order to learn good technique, ukemi is not the be-all-and-end-all. No one boasts about being good at ukemi in Judo. In the Judo sense you need to find people you can beat and train on them. Then you need to find people you can almost beat and train on them until you can. Those who you can't beat are simply busy doing the reverse to you. That was my conclusion, made when I was still a teenager.

As there is no 'beating' in Aikido, how is it possible to truly learn? Through ukemi? I think not. Being good at ukemi does have lots of self-defence advantages and does offer insight into technical detail, but it does not easily progress to learning to stand your ground and throw people about, especially if those people are of a more violent temper.

[I should add that in Japan, small people can win as the teaching is better - just my experience]

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 12-17-2006 at 09:44 PM.

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Old 12-17-2006, 10:11 PM   #14
eyrie
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Now here's a gem... Ueshiba taking ukemi.... literally!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7nwNgKs-DnY

Ignatius
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Old 12-17-2006, 11:25 PM   #15
DH
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Re: Caught between two worlds

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:

As there is no 'beating' in Aikido, how is it possible to truly learn? Through ukemi? I think not. Being good at ukemi does have lots of self-defence advantages and does offer insight into technical detail, but it does not easily progress to learning to stand your ground and throw people about, especially if those people are of a more violent temper.

[I should add that in Japan, small people can win as the teaching is better - just my experience]
Hi Rupert
Nothing to add except to say I have taught several "small guys." who have done very well in different venues. I'd add to that many others in other arts from many different countries who do quite well.
All taught outside Japan.
I'm not one for Cultural snobbery. There are just as many half-assed, lame, self deluded and disorganized teachers -as well as excellent ones- in Japan as anywhere else. And the many venues that demonstrate freestlye fighting (including judo and jujutsu technique as a staple) are proving just how poor the Japanese have become at their own game in international competitons where no one really cares what somones rank or style is.

Taking Ukemi as a way to think
A response to take a throw is a choice. Mike wrote in this thread about his Aikido where he responded to a teachers atemi to his stomach by throwing himself. The only differentiation being in his earlier days he threw himself and now in his more experienced years the teacher would have to actually hit him.

Its just a view, but moving your whole body to a throw in response to a punch is possibly one of the stupidess things I have ever heard and is all over the place in AIkido videos. It is also one of the reasons so many scoff. There are far better ways to respond to strikes, throws and enters-and they all involve remaing standing.
By the teacher taking Ukemi they can better lead people into postional superiority and build their ability to read openings and win. Once trained a person would return to Aikido and just "see" no need to fall as a response in the vast majority of situations offered
Breakfalls and rolls only remain as staples in Aikido in order for folks to play aikido. Outside of the "Aiki"arts martial art shtick...once you get into more heavy handed dynamic body work the need for breakfalls and rolls is greatly reduced.

Another example away from response to atemi- is joint locks. Aikido folks have a hard time wrapping their way around ukemi with joint locks. Falling down and throwing yourself as a defense to a joint lock is not a way to go. There are ways to fight, where the chance of ever getting caught in a lock are slim and none and the responses to it being placed and needing to be undone involve body training in resistance and counters while remaining on your feet.

Again, you can train to carry your body in a dynamic exchange that changes the way your bodies respond... automatically. And it makes that type of response (taking air) inane and all but useless. And this is best taught by the teacher being the Uke.

Anyway all this calls to mind an interview with an Aikido shihan in Aikido journal in the 80's. The shihan was dismayed at the state of Aikido. He said something on the order of "Its easy to see the way Aikido is practiced today that the only peaceful resolution these people are going to bring to a conflict- will be when they are lying unconscious at the feet of their opponent."

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-17-2006 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 12-17-2006, 11:54 PM   #16
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Now here's a gem... Ueshiba taking ukemi.... literally!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7nwNgKs-DnY
Wait now...
He absorbed it in his body, sort of laid down and could have easily brought him into a guard. And!! he left his legs viable. He didn't slap out and stayed connected to the kid...

Oh..Ok....ok... doesn't count... its a kid.
But I wonder what he would have looked like

Dan
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:13 AM   #17
eyrie
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

And he was a very old man too... but I get your point and generally agree with what you've been saying all along.... insofar as not taking ukemi, being unthrowable, unlockable, responding differently from being hit, yada, yada, yada... i.e. it was tongue-in-cheek

Ignatius
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:26 AM   #18
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Well me too.

I just couldn't resist.

Dan
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Old 12-18-2006, 02:21 AM   #19
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

If that kid's still doing Aikido he'll have a lot to BOAST about - I threw Ueshiba! Well, almost; well, not quite; well, actually, not at all. He just sat down before the kid did anything.

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Old 12-18-2006, 03:13 AM   #20
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Re: Caught between two worlds

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Another example away from response to atemi- is joint locks. Aikido folks have a hard time wrapping their way around ukemi with joint locks. Falling down and throwing yourself as a defense to a joint lock is not a way to go. There are ways to fight, where the chance of ever getting caught in a lock are slim and none and the responses to it being placed and needing to be undone involve body training in resistance and counters while remaining on your feet.
Actually I disagree with you here, while also agreeing strangely. I know from teaching beginners joint locks that they are unable to absorb the power, and as such their best way of relieving the pain and pressure is a fall or something similar. As they improve they can absorb more power and have no need to fall. So I can in turn then apply a stronger nikyo/sankyo etc.. a cycle of positive feedback and we all get better.

I think you should be careful about where you wave that tar and brush Dan

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:39 AM   #21
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Hi Mike
I'm only using as broad a brush as applies. The practice doesn't apply to those who don't do it. To those that do- I offered another way to think of the interplay.

Mike writes
I know from teaching beginners joint locks that they are unable to absorb the power, and as such their best way of relieving the pain and pressure is a fall or something similar.

No...it is not. It's your way, not the best way.
It isn't the best way for new students to relieve the pain and pressure." I train people to defeat me, not surrender to me....from day one.
I have a vested interest in them undoing what folks try to do to them.
The reason I mentioned locks is that from what I have experienced and watched on video for years there is a tendency toward pacivity and sacrifice of postion to the point of throwing yourself as an answer to something that is easily trained to be a low-level threat in the first place. And much more easily and tactfully dealt with in the second. Which is why I said Ukemi from locks is really just a way for Aikidoka to play in what they think is a flow and tyo have fun catching air. Playing like that is fun. "Thinking" like that in a real confrontation is weak.
Another way to go in training is to learn to lock and train to blow it up. Both parties learn. And the true value of that type of training gives a stable platform to continue to subdue, strike down, or control.
Anyway, as I stated there are ways to train men in recieving their technque and ever increasing resistense to build their skills to the point that they look at me or at others seniors and they watch how we recieve and don't sacrifice position as they apply things and they have a different model formed in their minds-eye... than giving up. On an external, technical, level it is inherently logical and flows. The body training makes it even more substantial.
To say it another way the first step toward failure is gving up.
Having intent in all you do- leads to many opportunities previously unseen.
I think the old Budo guys knew and know this still.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-18-2006 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:53 AM   #22
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
No...it is not. It's your way, not the best way.
It isn't the best way for new students to relieve the pain and pressure." I train people to defeat me, not surrender to me....from day one.
In that case i humbly suggest you've not felt a proper nikyo, I'm sure you will disagree. I hope you'll take me at my word however when I say I don't teach people to surrender to me, ever.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:58 AM   #23
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote:
In that case i humbly suggest you've not felt a proper nikyo, I'm sure you will disagree. I hope you'll take me at my word however when I say I don't teach people to surrender to me, ever.

Mike
Hi Mike,
I'm going to chime in here. While I'm not a highly skilled aikidoka, I have met Dan. And I'd bet that he could let me get into whatever nikkyo hold I wanted and it still wouldn't matter.

The part I'm confused on is whether he would be using great ukemi skills or great internal skills, or do they blend into one at that point?

Mark
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:14 AM   #24
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Assumptions are quirky things, Mike. And great fun.

You don't teach people to surrender?

But you already said you threw yourself away from a punch as a begginer. And then again when more advanced.
Then offered here that your new students opt for ukemi from a lock.
That pretty much sums it up for me.
I was only suggesting there is a better way to train the body-and the response.
But lets save this for somewhere else. It doesn't belong in this thread.
It is the idea of ukemi and who takes it that is at hand.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:22 AM   #25
DH
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Re: Ueshiba taking Ukemi

Hi Mark

They are one, always one. But there are external ways to train overlapping internal while both build in a person.
Well, I did ask Rob to put one on me. And even asked him to set it in more, till I was in pain and he had my Aikido center. Then i took it away and blew it up instantly. I'd be willing to guess he'll tell you he hasn't had anyone just sort of look at him and take the power away. But yes that's internal and its a pretty low level skill. Alot of guys could mamange that. More importantly, there are other ways to handle things like lock attempts as well.

But its not about me. If we in a teaching or senior role take Ukemi it allows a student to learn much faster just how to apply things, how to sustain them, and just what to do in many responses they see us doing as Uke. And if we have a healthy ego and a desire to better folks in our care we put them on a trac to defeat our skills.

With things like locks, pretty much they learn to lock and learn to undo them. Thus they learn a positive response to an attack not a passive one.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-18-2006 at 08:37 AM.
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