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Old 01-24-2010, 04:44 PM   #1
tim evans
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The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Changing from ikkyo to nikkyo is killing me on the ura version help please.

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:03 PM   #2
Abasan
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Just slide your hand holding the elbow up to the forearm/wrist and you're good to go. Lead with the other hand to touch uke's fingers to your chest. The one holding the forearm, maintain 90 degrees bent on uke. You should just about do all that in one movement. Don't forget your centerline vs his.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:35 AM   #3
Tim Griffiths
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

From which attack, and which hand?
Ahmad seems to be talking about katadori/katatedori and the 'lower' hand, whereas I immediately thought of shomenuchi ura, where the 'top' hand needs to slide around the wrist to switch from an loose ikkyo to nikkyo.

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:45 AM   #4
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Changing from ikkyo to nikkyo is killing me on the ura version help please.
Personally, I don't like the 'do ikkyo then transition to nikkyo'-approach, unless one is training how to recover from a poorly performed ikkyo by changing it to nikkyo. Focus on the nikkyo from the start.
Secondly, I was taught nikkyo ura with an entry and setup that's different from ikkyo. So for reference (not suggesting here you replace what you're being taught with what I describe here ): small entering step to the back side of uke, one hand grabs forearm of uke other cuts on the wrist; cutting motion is down while performing small tenkan (for the correct position, as Abasan said: centerlines!); keep control of uke with hand on forearm, other hand goes round uke's wrist to take the nikkyo grip while putting uke's hand/wrist against your shoulder.

p.s.: The technique description above was written with a gyaku hanmi shomen uchi attack in mind.
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Old 01-25-2010, 09:37 AM   #5
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

He mentioned transition from ikkyo to nikkyo.. so the initial attack is irrelevant I think.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-25-2010, 02:48 PM   #6
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

You have two basic ways of transition from ikkyo to nikkyo. One is done with thumb leading the rest of your hand around the wrist of attacker. The other one is with the palm of your hand sliding around the top of the attacker hand. In both cases you preserve the very close contact. It is rather difficult to describe with words. But more important part is to focus on complete control on the attacker body with your weight while you do this transition.

Nagababa

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Old 01-25-2010, 02:59 PM   #7
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
You have two basic ways of transition from ikkyo to nikkyo. One is done with thumb leading the rest of your hand around the wrist of attacker. The other one is with the palm of your hand sliding around the top of the attacker hand. In both cases you preserve the very close contact. It is rather difficult to describe with words. But more important part is to focus on complete control on the attacker body with your weight while you do this transition.
Yamada Sensei shows how to do this transition in the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3oByHA3f0

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:07 PM   #8
tim evans
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Yamada Sensei shows how to do this transition in the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3oByHA3f0
This helps out alot thanks that hand change is driving me

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 01-26-2010, 06:36 AM   #9
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Training is like that... you train on something for days and it just won't click or flow for me then one day quite suddenly the light bulb goes on and I wonder why I thought it was so hard. I had that issue with Ikkyo as well. It will pass. Just keep training.
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:31 PM   #10
tim evans
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

As a shomem strike comes off the left arm I step in just like ikkyo ura as I tenkan around I bring his arm low switch hands to nikkyo then heres the problem as I bring it up to my clavicle I,m having trouble applying nikkyo if this explains my dilemma sensei has shown me many times I just can,t get it.

one of the "corn fed boys"
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:26 AM   #11
edshockley
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Whenever I encounter a difficulty with a hand manipulation or bokken technique I remember the nameless seminar visitor who said with a smile, "Ask me again in ten thousand throws." Thus far, no question has ever endured that long.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:29 PM   #12
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Nikkyo ura is one of the techniques which has its pros and cons depending on what you expect from it at any given time.

Personally I love to go into ikkyo, lock the arm of uke on my leg - and then set up ura from there. [control, control, control... at each point there is no way for you to do anything - its really fun this way as it gives you the most control and you can play with uke like a puppet.]

Of course there is the non-lock version where you basically start off with nikkyo, but I find it time consuming to be practical... not saying that it cant be mastered that way, but fast paced is trickier this way from what I have experienced.

Basically I look at ikkyo as the base for all the pinning techniques for the most part [well, to be fair - ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, as yonkyo, gokyo, and rokkyo have a bit of a different swing to it... for me rokkyo and kotegaeshi ura go nicely together - if one isn't working the other is a natural back up in a quick situation.]

Anyway... hope you find a way that works for you and you enjoy.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 02-02-2010 at 02:31 PM.

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Old 02-03-2010, 11:45 AM   #13
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

tim, if the change on nikkyo is kicking your a..... then maybe you're grabbing the wrong limb :P

practice hard
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:04 PM   #14
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
tim, if the change on nikkyo is kicking your a..... then maybe you're grabbing the wrong limb :P
Hey jerome shawn said hi the techniques getting easier over the last month every class has been ikkyo and nikkyo my elbows are hurting pretty good now.

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Old 02-04-2010, 03:24 AM   #15
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Interesting question, if you look at Yamada sensei's vid his ikkyo control is so good, what's the point of transitioning to nikkyo? If ikkyo is correct then nikkyo makes no sense as a transition. Transitions occur because the first technique is not correct and the error leads to a path of further techniques. If not practiced this way the process of going from one technique to another destroys the principle of complete control and immediate victory. However, transitioning is of enormous value for understanding the less than ideal world.

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Old 02-04-2010, 01:47 PM   #16
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Interesting question, if you look at Yamada sensei's vid his ikkyo control is so good, what's the point of transitioning to nikkyo? If ikkyo is correct then nikkyo makes no sense as a transition.
For pure fun! [Its a better ending, alternative ending, etc.] I have control the whole time and can do either or, but prefer nikkyo ura just because.

[same reason I enjoy uchi-kaiten sankyo... and a bit less yankyo, though that can be cool too]

Peace

dAlen

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Old 02-09-2010, 11:43 AM   #17
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Hey jerome shawn said hi the techniques getting easier over the last month every class has been ikkyo and nikkyo my elbows are hurting pretty good now.
heytim

hi to shawn! hope to see you guys in march

and now back to our regularly scheduled program...

practice hard
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:02 PM   #18
kokyu
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
You have two basic ways of transition from ikkyo to nikkyo. One is done with thumb leading the rest of your hand around the wrist of attacker. The other one is with the palm of your hand sliding around the top of the attacker hand. In both cases you preserve the very close contact. It is rather difficult to describe with words. But more important part is to focus on complete control on the attacker body with your weight while you do this transition.
Some people do not like the first method "thumb leading rest of your hand around the wrist of attacker" because it's easier to lose the grip on uke, thus allowing uke to escape... what do you think?
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:05 AM   #19
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote: View Post
Some people do not like the first method "thumb leading rest of your hand around the wrist of attacker" because it's easier to lose the grip on uke, thus allowing uke to escape... what do you think?
Depends if you are talking about ‘kihon' presented at the test or ‘application' where attacker has more freedom to react. In the first case you need to improve as much as possible both ways, it will give you a bit more freedom to adjust when practice different aikido styles.

In the second case -- it is completely other world. Usually one hand that controls attacker elbow during transition is not enough to really control countering attacker. I like to put attacker forearm between my hip and thigh to add additional leverage control with my weight before attempt to change from ikkyo to nikkyo. Then the way how you change has much less importance.

Nagababa

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Old 02-19-2010, 07:10 AM   #20
kokyu
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
In the second case -- it is completely other world. Usually one hand that controls attacker elbow during transition is not enough to really control countering attacker. I like to put attacker forearm between my hip and thigh to add additional leverage control with my weight before attempt to change from ikkyo to nikkyo. Then the way how you change has much less importance.
That's true... unless you are very, very fast, the attacker should be strong enough to break free with just one hand on the elbow

Tend to agree with Alec that transitioning from ikkyo to nikkyo doesn't make much sense if the ikkyo is already correct... maybe the wrist control becomes more important when uke is attacking fast with a knife... and nikkyo is applied using the hands only, no shoulder here

Also agree that transitioning makes more sense if the ikkyo control was insufficient.... unlike ikkyo, nikkyo (and sankyo/yonkyo) involves an added element of pain, which may be needed to regain control (which was lost when ikkyo control was insufficient or in error)

... interesting thread
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Old 03-03-2010, 10:01 AM   #21
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

How often do you practice? Do you have a shodan or senior Kyu?
First, ask the instructor. Most likely there is something you are doing incorrectly especially if you are just learning these techniques.

Aikido techniques are meant to be sensitive to the specific conditions of an attack. However, since it is often too difficult for instructors (due to time of classes) to cover all the possible condition-dependent variations for techniques, some students will adopt a general type of attack and learn to respond to that. You will see later as you advance and become better at muscle memory and become more familiar with these techniques you will see that correct transitioning will come with correct practice and training on this technique.



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Old 03-03-2010, 01:49 PM   #22
Walter Martindale
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

It's all strange to me - I've been doing this Aikido stuff since 1993 and thought I had a pretty good handle on tsuki-kotegaeshi.
Then it turns out I don't. Also thought I had a pretty good ikkyo - been told I have a pretty good ikkyo, and it's feeling clumsy as all heck these days but I don't really think I'm doing anything different.
Hand change in Nikyo is yet another challenge - was shown something early on, could do it for a few years, and now I'm confused again.
Must practice more.
Walter
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:01 PM   #23
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
As a shomem strike comes off the left arm I step in just like ikkyo ura as I tenkan around I bring his arm low switch hands to nikkyo then heres the problem as I bring it up to my clavicle I,m having trouble applying nikkyo if this explains my dilemma sensei has shown me many times I just can,t get it.
if your partner makes a right shomenuchi try reaching up with your left hand and secure a hold on the underside of the ukes wrist.At the same time place your your own right hand blade on back of ukes right wrist and cut down quickly [thus breaking ukes posture].Footwork -at start of ukes attack -blend with his movement and withdraw/open your body in such a way he cannot hit you.Your body should be at an angle to his .His right leg will be forward , your left will be forward.Like Gyaku hamni posture with partner.
Combining the above upper body [hands ] with the opening body, just bring his attacking hand to your left chest /clavicle area , kep your own elbows down and tight to your body .Hold his wrist firmly against your body with both hands and with primarily your bottom hand apply strong pressure on the wrist .His wrist is held in one position with right hand mainly , but his forearm moves across your centrelinedue to pressure applied by left hand.This makes it hard for him to keep his posture.Uke usually loses posture and goes down.Finish the waza of by normal pin.
Hope this helps.
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Old 03-04-2010, 01:54 AM   #24
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
As a shomem strike comes off the left arm I step in just like ikkyo ura as I tenkan around I bring his arm low switch hands to nikkyo then heres the problem as I bring it up to my clavicle I,m having trouble applying nikkyo if this explains my dilemma sensei has shown me many times I just can,t get it.
Hi Tim,
Just a follow up to my last comment. Nikkyo has variations .The way Ukes responds can determine the type of Nikkyo you apply.If the elbow of the Uke that is being attacked is down/raised Nikkyo applied varies.If Uke is taller /shorter again this height differential also determines how you apply Nikkyo.For example a short guy would find difficulty applying nikkyo on a much bigger guy if tori tried to make the application using forearm method.
While some people do ura waza ikkyo [in Shomen Uchi] as a lead into nikkyo , this is not always necessary.The method I tried to explain earlier allows Tori to apply nikkyo faster and has less overall body movement .Focus on the immediate control of Ukes wrist is of primary importance here as is blending with Tori's attack.
If you send me your email address if I get a moment I will send you a vid clip illustrating this waza.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-04-2010, 02:10 AM   #25
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Re: The hand change on nikkyo ura is kicking my a.....

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Personally, I don't like the 'do ikkyo then transition to nikkyo'-approach, unless one is training how to recover from a poorly performed ikkyo by changing it to nikkyo. Focus on the nikkyo from the start.
Secondly, I was taught nikkyo ura with an entry and setup that's different from ikkyo. So for reference (not suggesting here you replace what you're being taught with what I describe here ): small entering step to the back side of uke, one hand grabs forearm of uke other cuts on the wrist; cutting motion is down while performing small tenkan (for the correct position, as Abasan said: centerlines!); keep control of uke with hand on forearm, other hand goes round uke's wrist to take the nikkyo grip while putting uke's hand/wrist against your shoulder.

p.s.: The technique description above was written with a gyaku hanmi shomen uchi attack in mind.
Hi Joep,
If Ukes attack is right Migi Gyaku Hanmi Shomen , I would do the following :
1. Blend with Ukes , stretch out my left hand , followed very closely with right hand and secure very firmly Ukes wrist at near zenith of Ukes attacking hand.If you do this too late Ukes shomen is too powerful on the downward motion.You must catch the wrist early.
2.Adopt a Gyaku Hamni [left leg forward ] position, ensuring that you are of the line of Ukes attack.
3. Maintaining hold of Ukes wrist with own left hand , utilise your right hand and cut uke down [use heavy hand ].This breaks Ukes posture, the rest is simply placing Ukes wrist in hollow of your own left clavicle/shoulder region, and then applying pressure to the wrist/forearm.Needless to say both hand and footwork , body positioning must be done in unison with good timing.
Your method would appear similar to my own.
Cheers, Joe.
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