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Old 02-15-2010, 08:53 AM   #76
DH
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
While I was typing a reply, I realized I was posting in the way Oisin Bourke called me out on previously. So I'm just going to stop here instead of asking question after question while you most likely won't write down detailed descriptions of how you think those exercises should be done - because that's how this game usually plays out. (And if you don't think it would have: you don't need my questions to post more information, so feel free to do so.)
Thats fine Joep but I think Mr. Bourke's comments were more along the lines that if you have something to offer, state it. Otherwise continuing to ask questions and then shoot down every response is perceived as a game. Example: a calculous teacher continues to ask grammar school kids questions the teachers already knows they can't answer adequately. What gets accomplished? After a while even pre-teens would get that they were being played with and talked down to.
In either case someone continually asking questions they already have the answers to is perceived as arrogant, and self-involved.
To say it another more direct way, Mr. Bourke is probably saying people should step in and help or shut up.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:01 PM   #77
jss
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Thats fine Joep but I think Mr. Bourke's comments were more along the lines that if you have something to offer, state it.
You're right and I did so in the thread in which Oisin Bourke made his comment.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:16 AM   #78
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What is Ki?

i don't know. i thought this conversation was different that the other one. The other one; the fellow was really asking questions. In this case there seemed to be a bunch of assertions. I would have liked to see some actual questions/and/answers. (e.g. "go for it Joep, let's see what shakes loose"). Especially because of Vincent's tone. In addition to that Vincent definitely changed the spirit of this discussion here. Not that lbb or cdh need me to say a darn thing; but it was kind of an internet drive by. I, for one, appreciate their point of view, and call for rational thought/discussion/physiology/etc. Of course that is needed. Naysaying or saying you don't know squat because you doubt is pretty useless, in general. Everyone should doubt it. Investigate. Then decide.
Regarding the detail: It seems that people don't like discussing actual detail...it tends to actually reveal things..that are, perhaps, best kept quiet, for one reason or another. Be it dangerous info where people can hurt themselves or others; or that it betray a festering void of ignorance underneath the saccharine platitudes; or that the information is proprietary, or i don't know what..

For instance; If anyone actually understands Ki, then I would ask of them, "Why do you think such extreme behavior tends to show up when discussing Ki?". Why so many vehement arguments? Why so much bs?
One answer I came up with: "It is a jewel; and as with anything of value; it tends to bring out the best and worst". (/misdirection/etc)
Just human nature (?)
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:15 PM   #79
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What is Ki?

sorry. just venting. try again?
...well, since were' talking about this ( ) anyway, and since everyone's getting along so well...I thought I'd post this .pdf I found on my web travels. It's sure to bring harmony to everyone's views. NOT!! Here is someone's attempt at discussing Ki (/Internal Energy) from an atypical (i.e. unabashedly Christian) viewpoint. Here<. Maybe it's interesting. (/maybe not). Was to me. Don't read it if you're easily offended. If you do, and you are, well...maybe, just take it as another of the many datapoints out there.

Something certainly interesting in any explanation of that word (Ki) is that it always tends to bleed outside of any boundaries that we want to put on it.
No matter the culture, or the context...it seems that the 'framework' or worldview invoked to discuss ki ..... expands.. and often without bounds. Whether Eastern or 'Western'.... and I think that's cause it ('ki') touches on aspects of what life itself is.
That's what I think. You?
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:22 PM   #80
gregstec
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
sorry. just venting. try again?
...well, since were' talking about this ( ) anyway, and since everyone's getting along so well...I thought I'd post this .pdf I found on my web travels. It's sure to bring harmony to everyone's views. NOT!! Here is someone's attempt at discussing Ki (/Internal Energy) from an atypical (i.e. unabashedly Christian) viewpoint. Here<. Maybe it's interesting. (/maybe not). Was to me. Don't read it if you're easily offended. If you do, and you are, well...maybe, just take it as another of the many datapoints out there.

Something certainly interesting in any explanation of that word (Ki) is that it always tends to bleed outside of any boundaries that we want to put on it.
No matter the culture, or the context...it seems that the 'framework' or worldview invoked to discuss ki ..... expands.. and often without bounds. Whether Eastern or 'Western'.... and I think that's cause it ('ki') touches on aspects of what life itself is.
That's what I think. You?
Discussions about Ki, religion, and politics are best conducted among people of like minds - outside that environment, all you have are one sided conversations where people only listen to themselves

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 02-16-2010 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:45 PM   #81
Nikopol
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Re: What is Ki?

To everyone involved in this discussion, it was not my intention to change the tone of this thread. To Josh, I agree with you, and meant to point out that the original thread does ask questions, after which the post became full of assertions and challenges.

I wish a comment I made earlier could be un-made but that is not an option and it is unfortunate. I hope everyone will refrain from focusing on my mistakes in their posts and refer again to the individual who asked the original question. My apologies to anyone who has been offended.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:38 AM   #82
bulevardi
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Regarding the detail: It seems that people don't like discussing actual detail...it tends to actually reveal things..that are, perhaps, best kept quiet, for one reason or another. Be it dangerous info where people can hurt themselves or others; or that it betray a festering void of ignorance underneath the saccharine platitudes; or that the information is proprietary, or i don't know what..
I guess I'll have to read the book of Koichi Tohei about Ki.
If he can't explain what Ki is about, how to achieve, develop or experience Ki, no one else will,... I guess.

And if he's just telling blablabla in his book, it means Ki is just some hyped invented paradigm.

If he explains how to achieve, develop or experience Ki in a good way through his book, I'll practice those exercises until I experience it too. And I will keep you posted right here if it worked out or not.
Until that day, no one else should post in this thread ;-)

Last edited by bulevardi : 02-17-2010 at 06:40 AM.

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Old 02-17-2010, 07:11 AM   #83
jss
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
I guess I'll have to read the book of Koichi Tohei about Ki.
If he can't explain what Ki is about, how to achieve, develop or experience Ki, no one else will,... I guess.
I think Koichi Tohei was quite capable of explaining this about ki at the time he wrote the book. I only doubt he was willing to explain all the key elements. It's been a while since I read a book by Tohei, but I don't remember finding them very helpful, but ymmv, of course.

Quote:
Until that day, no one else should post in this thread ;-)
Sorry...
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:09 AM   #84
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Re: What is Ki?

Tohei is always quoted on things "ki", but has anyone researched what Shioda, Tomiki, Mochizuki, Shirata have said about "ki"? Might prove interesting.

And consider the Hawaii trip where Ueshiba told people to take Tohei down because he had a hangover. Tohei didn't seem to fall in line with the "spiritual-ness" that Ueshiba believed. So, how does that fall into line with some people's ideas that "ki" is some ethereal energy all around us, yada yada yada?

If Shioda, etc talked about ki and Tohei wasn't in line with Ueshiba's grand spiritual-ness, doesn't that seem to point to a fact that "ki" has a very definable quality that can be trained in the body?
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:52 PM   #85
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Tohei is always quoted on things "ki", but has anyone researched what Shioda, Tomiki, Mochizuki, Shirata have said about "ki"? Might prove interesting.

And consider the Hawaii trip where Ueshiba told people to take Tohei down because he had a hangover. Tohei didn't seem to fall in line with the "spiritual-ness" that Ueshiba believed. So, how does that fall into line with some people's ideas that "ki" is some ethereal energy all around us, yada yada yada?

If Shioda, etc talked about ki and Tohei wasn't in line with Ueshiba's grand spiritual-ness, doesn't that seem to point to a fact that "ki" has a very definable quality that can be trained in the body?
would you consider it an oversimplification to define it as intent? While there may be more components to it than that, wouldn't the general concept of "extend ki" simply be extending or focusing your intent?

Coming from a ki society offshoot, we've always worked Tohei's principles and I certainly feel they inject something, from an aikido standpoint, that make a difference. Having had the opportunity to do some "other" training with a local group, I've started to look at those things somewhat differently and on a few occasions have already had some very surprising results.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:12 AM   #86
C. David Henderson
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Re: What is Ki?

That's an interesting thought.

I remember this thread and think it might also help define the topic:

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread...ight=ki+intent

Best

David Henderson
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:28 PM   #87
David Yap
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Tohei is always quoted on things "ki", but has anyone researched what Shioda, Tomiki, Mochizuki, Shirata have said about "ki"? Might prove interesting...
A friend of mine, who is knowledgeable in most martial arts and who holds a nidan in Yoshinkan aikido and who I have had discussions on Ki, insisted that Gozo Shioda did not believe in Ki.

Any Yoshinkan guys here would like to share this?

Regards

David Y
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Old 02-19-2010, 07:17 AM   #88
gregstec
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Re: What is Ki?

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
A friend of mine, who is knowledgeable in most martial arts and who holds a nidan in Yoshinkan aikido and who I have had discussions on Ki, insisted that Gozo Shioda did not believe in Ki.....
I have heard that as well. Also, I believe in one of his books, he simply referred to Ki as timing.

Greg
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Old 02-20-2010, 04:05 AM   #89
Lonin
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Re: What is Ki?

Ki is the confluence of balance, timing and focussed power (kokyu ryoku) during execution of a technique in yoshinkan aikido terms. This I have gathered from "teh tarik" sessions with Sensei Francis remembering his training days with Gozo shioda. It may be a different perception for other aikido styles or other martial arts.
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