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Old 09-08-2009, 03:14 AM   #1
dalen7
 
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Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

I realize some of you here train in Thai Boxing. Im curious to hear some feedback or thoughts on how Thai Boxing and Aikido compliment one another.

First, I do realize that for the most part the end goals for both sports are completely different. None-the-less, Aikido is derived from Juijitsu and Im convinced it could be used effectively in conjunction with BJJ and Thai boxing in a MMA fight - though due to the non-competitive nature of Aikido this hasnt happened.

I just took up my first Thai boxing lesson last night [mixed with some grappling]... yep, its a bit different. lol
However, Im interested in seeing how I can mesh my knowledge of Aikido in there, and am pretty confident I will be able to... again just curious of other peoples experience along this route. [of course you have to have the MMA fingerless gloves to remotely pull off any of the Aikido techniques]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Any good advice on blocking knees to upper ribs would be appreciated. [Suppose put my leg up as well?]

Last edited by dalen7 : 09-08-2009 at 03:26 AM.

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Old 09-08-2009, 09:55 AM   #2
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
First, I do realize that for the most part the end goals for both sports are completely different.
Aikido is not a sport.

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Old 09-08-2009, 12:50 PM   #3
dalen7
 
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Aikido is not a sport.
of course its not, realized the 'typo' afterwards... but the pointer still works.

Basically taking the non-sport Aikido and incorporating its moves into MMA like BJJ, etc. [BJJ and Aikido and Judo all have the same roots, 2 of 3 are sports, well actually Tomiki Aikido is a sport as well.]

Im looking at it as a yin and yang bit... looking at mixing the soft and the hard. There are multiple applications, Aikido has been a spiritual journey, now I want to use what I know to see how these integrate.

Of course I dont expect anyone to agree with my idea or even understand what Im trying to get at, but Im sure there are others out there who may have some interesting insight into the 2 together... soon enough Ill have some more insight as well hopefully.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 09-08-2009, 12:57 PM   #4
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

I do not really understand what problem you are trying to solve. Is there something missing in your Aikido?

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Old 09-08-2009, 12:59 PM   #5
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I do not really understand what problem you are trying to solve. Is there something missing in your Aikido?
No problems at all David. I enjoy my Aikido actually.

This is a thread to chat with other guys who have taken Aikido for awhile as well as Thai boxing. [I know they are around here somewhere... maybe your one of them?]

Im looking at doing MMA. The place that teaches Thai boxing also does grappling for MMA. All Im interested in is mixing pins and throws I learned in Aikido with this. I think its possible despite the fact no one has done it as "aikido is not a sport", but I figured maybe someone here has tried it out.

... no problems, just having fun.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 09-08-2009, 01:46 PM   #6
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
All Im interested in is mixing pins and throws I learned in Aikido with this. I think its possible...
I am interested in your conclusions. Do share when you have them.

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Old 09-08-2009, 03:36 PM   #7
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I am interested in your conclusions. Do share when you have them.
Do you Thai Box perchance?

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
The only conclusions I have thus far is that Thai Boxing leaves you pretty sore... especailly a knee to the upper ribs by a guy considerably larger than yourself.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:52 PM   #8
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Hi Dalen, Interesting post, depends on how good your Aikido is, As you have just started M/T, it might take a few weeks getting to know and apply basic thai clinch work, However, you will be pleased to know that you CAN apply Aikido, although not tex book stuff. there are openings for redirection and Heaven & Earth.
Also rather than grabbing the wrist, you can achieve more Aikido by focusing on the elbow joint as the control point.

As For defences against knees to the ribs, develop iron abs, alternatively if against the ropes use a leg across opponents thights
Depending on the type of stance you use, you might be able to drop an elbow onto your opponents thigh just above the knee,

Unfortunately, upperbody locks on the arms etc are illegal in Muay Thai, but it does make training more interesting.

happy training
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:29 PM   #9
Jason Morgan
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

In my experience Aikido requires atemi (strikes) to create openings for techniques. Muay thai would give you the training necessary to be competent with atemi. Another thought is that muay thai will give you more tools at the clinch range (utilizing elbows and knees) which can create openings for techniques.

Try a striking combo into a clinch where you have underhooks then spin tenkan and go into a Nishio style nikkyo.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:06 PM   #10
Andrew Prochnow
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Dalen, Good questions. Are you taking knees from the clinch? The best advice I would give as far as blocking goes, would be forget about blocking and work on not getting kneed. Punch your way out. If that doesn't work for you work different throws from in close. See where your opponents balance is. It should be back and down and then driving forward which would pull you into their knee. Can you find a way around it? Can you find a way through it? I cant give you any advice from an Aikido background because I don't have one. I do have an MMA background however so I hope any of the above helps. A name that does come to mind would be Kevin Leavitt. He has an Aikido background and an MMA one pursuing Army Combatives. He would have first hand knowledge of blending the two together. Hope this helps.

Best
-Andrew Prochnow
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:51 PM   #11
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Thanks for the post Russell, Jason & Andrew.

To bad about the rule of no upper body locks, though when we practice the ground fighting part with the M/T training, perhaps I can try it out.

As far as techniques which come from Aikido, I was thinking about perhaps a rokkyo type move... kind of playing with the elbows as was mentioned.

Of course first I need to get familiar with this clinch bit... it was pretty cool never did the clinch before.

As for the ribs, [yes it was from the clinch], it just happened so fast, I was caught unprepared... at the time I wasnt thinking about knees at all, my mind was preoccupied with kicks and punches. [I felt more comfortable with the punches than the kicks.]

Ill tell you, even with the sparring pads I felt like a rag doll being tossed around when they practiced knee drills to the chest. I see why they have weight classes cause as a lighter person just not much of a chance especially when it comes to grappling. I tried to do a sprawl and it was like the guy was picking up paper. lol

Perhaps there are some guys that didnt show up that are in my weight category who I can train with today.
Though I wouldnt mind being able to eventually take down someone bigger by having some better, faster moves, etc.

Again, thanks for the post.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Keep in mind this was my first lesson.
Ive ran my mouth before saying I feel like I would be a natural with Thai boxing... well, here it is. lol
Suppose me and my friends fooling around with kickboxing years back doesnt really count, nor does my short time doing kickboxing training seeing it mainly was boxing. [yeah weird, but its how it happened.]

None-the-less, this appears it will be a catalyst in my conditioning.

Last edited by dalen7 : 09-09-2009 at 12:05 AM.

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Old 09-15-2009, 11:25 PM   #12
TEARO
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

I've practiced both (still practicing Aikido) and I don't think they could complement each other. The reason I don't think they complement each other is the way you have to hunch your back in Muay Thai so you won't fall or back off easly in exchange of punches and in Aikido your back has to be straight all the times!
plus in Aikido your hips are always forward but in Muay Thai your body is slightly turned to the right (or left if you're southpaw) so you can harness power by the turn of the hips when punching or what ever.
But I have practiced both and had fun in both,I did try to mix both while practicing with a friend,and it didn't work well.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:20 AM   #13
Michael Varin
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Hello Dalen,

You have started down a potentially interesting path.

I did muay thai for about a year. That was during a period of time when I was frustrated about the applicability of aikido to a "real" fight.

I was constantly trying to make aikido fit.

I loved muay thai training, and bet you will too. I am sure you will learn a lot! But you will end up frustrated if you are doing it with the aim of making aikido techniques work in an mma setting.

It's like trying to put the square peg in the round hole.

You have already, perhaps intuitively, recognized rokkyo as the most likely candidate. I would agree.

You might work some of the other techniques, but even then you will likely find them to be unnecessarily dangerous (to you). The more you learn strikes, clinching, and take downs, the more obvious this will become.

The men who developed (discovered?) the techniques seen in aikido did not contemplate a one-on-one empty-handed fight.

Japanese jujutsu was developed around weapons, particularly edged weapons, and that is the context in which you will see their applicability.

It's the same reason non-choke submissions are disappearing from high-level mma. Strategically they do not make sense.

The reverse is equally true. Those brutal knees from a muay thai clinch would be terribly inefficient techniques against an opponent armed with a knife.

In any case, I look forward to hearing about your experiences.

Good luck!

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:30 AM   #14
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

If your aikido trains you in internal development, you will be able to transfer your physical stability into muay thai.

Kneeing= walking, make contact with the knee
Front kick = walking, make contact with ball/heel
Round house kick = turn to the side, walk. Contact with the shin.
Punching = spearing.

Rob can comment more competently on this than I can
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:48 AM   #15
dalen7
 
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Thanks Firas, Michael, & Tim for the comments!

First, albeit embarrassing, I will relay my feedback in Thai Boxing/MMA training.

Took my first lesson last Monday and the only thing noticeable were some bruises and a sore left leg from repeated practice kicks as well as a sore ribcage from a knee going there.

On Tuesday morning I really could not move without pain in my back. I had been thrown twice on the ground and they dont use padding here. They didnt do the throws overly hard, per say, but even high falling Ukemi in Aikido bothers me due to an auto accident I had around the age of 26. [mercedes slammed our VW in the rear... seems all the shock went into my spine and neck.]

This problem is something that I have been dealing with for awhile.
My lack of a consistent yoga and fitness program did not help me prepare for this first ThaiBoxing/MMA lesson as it was more a being thrown in there to get the hang of things. [which is fine if I were a bit younger I suppose]

So last Wednesday I took another go at it, and the constant kicks to the side, even with the pads, was to much... and I had a clear punch to my neck delivered which half way blacked me out. [larger guy, but hey, even a smaller guy would have given me some problems after how I was feeling.]

I backed off from it Friday and this past Monday. I went to Aikido Thur. and yesterday but refused to do any Ukemi... just cant. Back is slowly getting better, but I realized that I must put some more serious effort into actual conditioning that I used to be involved in before I give it another go. I have just now talked to the instructor to see if I can do bag work to get used to it all.

For the fun of it, I did get in some solid punches, though I didnt use full force, [mainly out of concern the larger dude would nail me] lol - but I did it fighting south paw. [Couple of face jabs and hooks, as I stayed on the outside of his left hand circling around for punches. That was a cool experiment.]

Anyway, that is my update... I was curious, as mentioned, to see how the yin and yang blended... of course I have some philosophical view points on this from my extremely limited experience with it, but we will have to see how things progress.

Again, would love to have had a good warrior story to share, especially after my comments about feeling like I would be a natural Thai boxer. [comments were made by me due to my experience, in my younger years, where my neighbors and I would fool around, free sparring, with full contact kicks, etc. and it didnt bother me one bit. Guess age catches up with you... though Im sure with some effort, I can rework some of what I used to have.
[on second thought, we didnt kick with our shins... that seems to make a world of difference with pain.]

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 09-16-2009 at 04:58 AM.

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Old 09-16-2009, 07:24 AM   #16
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

That IS a good warrior story! Getting outside of your comfort zone, dealing with the suck factor and learning and growing! That is what it is all about!

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Old 09-16-2009, 08:07 AM   #17
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

I'm a bit surprised that they tossed you in with the wolves so quickly. I'd politely insist on working on conditioning, shadow boxing, bag work, and maybe some light sparring for a couple of weeks. If they aren't interested in easing you into their program, then I would not return to a place that may have little concern for your safety.

As far as Muay Thai and Aikido; I think it's a great idea. There isn't much out there that will efficiently hone your timing and distance to a point like the threat of being kicked or punched in the face.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 09-16-2009 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:07 AM   #18
dalen7
 
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
That IS a good warrior story! Getting outside of your comfort zone, dealing with the suck factor and learning and growing! That is what it is all about!
Thanks Kevin, your right, its all part of the process.

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
I'm a bit surprised that they tossed you in with the wolves so quickly. I'd politely insist on working on conditioning, shadow boxing, bag work, and maybe some light sparring for a couple of weeks. If they aren't interested in easing you into their program, then I would not return to a place that may have little concern for your safety.
Well Michael, there are a couple of things I noticed which may shed some light onto the training situation.

First it appears that these guys have been training with each other for awhile. The key point being is that everyone just seemed to 'fit'.
Even with the David & Goliath scenario it appeared that there was already a balance there.

This was a concern of mine initially, as I didn't see anyone in my weight & height class. There were a couple of people at Aikido who expressed an interest in going, but due to certain reasons were not able to do so at the time.

None-the-less, I bit the bullet and took a dive in.

The instructor tried to include me in the regular training to keep the wheels moving, and had I been a bit younger and in the shape I used to be in, it would have been fine perhaps. However, in this case it would have been more advantageous to put me on bags, allowing me to adjust to the movements, etc., which really would benefit any beginner. [As well as gaining time to improve my physical stamina, etc.]

I don't foresee it being an issue with me taking this route in the future, and have mentioned it to him today as an option.

There is that bit again about the language.
Here I am, yet again, in a country where my language skills, though improving, are far from the best when it comes to quick & clear communication.

A fine example is my communication with my Aikido instructor. There is a tendency for him to move quickly through what is being said and thus miss some key points of what is being communicated...

In a sense, the Thai Boxing instructor seems to be a bit more open than the Aikido instructor. But he is younger and with youth some of the barriers that can come with age are not there yet.

A lot of this comes down to experience. [teaching, not training]

Though he is a silver medal champion here in Europe, from what I understand, in Thai Boxing or MMA. [cant recall the organizational name right off he has competed under.] There was the unknown factor which popped up... a 30+ year old who is far from being in prime condition, which requires a slightly different approach - which wouldn't hurt for any beginner to get really.

Peace,

dAlen

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Old 09-17-2009, 09:26 AM   #19
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Hi Dalen. Another suggestion I would have, is that you try to workout on your own on a daily basis. Even if you are just jogging or jumping rope in the morning and maybe pumping out some calisthenics, it will greatly facilitate your adaptation into a more physically demanding art. I'm no expert on the subject, I have just found through my own experience that doing something daily has been helpful.
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:29 PM   #20
dalen7
 
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
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Hi Dalen. Another suggestion I would have, is that you try to workout on your own on a daily basis. Even if you are just jogging or jumping rope in the morning and maybe pumping out some calisthenics, it will greatly facilitate your adaptation into a more physically demanding art. I'm no expert on the subject, I have just found through my own experience that doing something daily has been helpful.
Totally agree with you Michael, and was initially wanting to put off the training until Oct. - well, should have waited heh? lol

Regardless, you are correct that a daily dose of jump rope/cardio, yoga, etc. will help keep me in better operating condition, regardless of what I set out to do. [now if only I can get my back completely healed]

Peace

dAlen

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Old 09-17-2009, 12:54 PM   #21
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Man your in Hungary too...if it is like other Eastern European cultures I have been in...those guys simply train tough and hard and expect you to step up and deal with it.

I trained BJJ in Romania for a couple weeks, and while they didn't have a whole lot of skill, those guys trained hard and tough which counts for alot!

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Old 09-17-2009, 01:56 PM   #22
dalen7
 
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Re: Thai Boxing & Aikido: Thoughts & Feedback.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Man your in Hungary too...if it is like other Eastern European cultures I have been in...those guys simply train tough and hard and expect you to step up and deal with it.

I trained BJJ in Romania for a couple weeks, and while they didn't have a whole lot of skill, those guys trained hard and tough which counts for alot!
Yep Kevin, you nailed it on the head.

From how I understand it, they haven't really had the luxury of having access to the same level of instruction that many take for granted in the rest of Europe & US. But they do train hard.

i.e. The instructor I mentioned in the daughter dojo who has his class practice ukemi on the gym floor - not too fun, but I suppose its one way to get you to learn quickly the most efficient way to take ukemi if you get tired of the pain... to much for me though.

Budapest may be different - who knows, for most Hungarians Budapest is not a fair representative of what is going on. [But then again there is a big difference, so I hear, between the western villages and the eastern ones where I live as well. Life gets easier the closer you are to Austria it seems]

The fact is that people do what they can with what they can find in their small villages. Even with the lower prices for martial arts, its still an expensive past time which most cant afford... and the idea of a having a guest instructor is basically unheard of.

All this doesn't mean there is no talent, but that talent arises out of hardship, and if that is honed, there just might be a diamond in the rough there. [Lot of talented Hungarians, but the ones that start to 'shine' tend to leave Hungary.]

Don't know, feel like getting all philosophical and expounding on the differences in life here in Hungary. [or at least the part i live in.] As there are quite a few differences to be sure. But perhaps thats for another time and another place.

... now if I can only get back some of that toughness as Im an 'old' softy now. lol

Peace,

dAlen

p.s.
Wish we could get some higher ranking Sensei to come visit our small dojo to inspire the people here... aside from our yearly seminar, which is a step in the right direction, as they just started that when I first joined the dojo. [So at least we get access to a really talented 4th dan once a year. Imre Marton, even the Serbs seem to like him.]

p.s.s.
Just thinking about some of these dojos stateside that have like 50 4th Dans, or so it seems, for one dojo... can we have an exchange program? Well take a few of those. [Even some 2nd Dans will do.]

Last edited by dalen7 : 09-17-2009 at 02:03 PM.

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