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Old 12-31-2007, 03:53 AM   #1
Daniel Ranger-Holt
Location: Luton
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I'm Leaving Aikido

In short i don't have the time it's going to take to keep going at this art...and it's a shame, and a bit embaressing for me, after all this time put into it...

I'm not sure exactly how long ive been studying / doing Aikido but its got to be about two years now i think, i attend lessons three times a week for the most part but the last few months it's slowly grinded to a halt. My enthusiasm for the art and what i feel i'm personally getting from the art. Which is very little. Perhaps it's my teacher i'm unsure but for the job i now do, Door Supervisor Aikido seems impractical Or should i say..my aikido...what ive been taught??

After two years commited learning i feel the enviornment of the mat, the bowing, the measured, often slow mo attacks, and the spiritual aspect thats to heavily influenced the art, hasn't at all prepared me for real face to face confrontations and attacks. Nearly all the techniques ive learn are useless in a split second attack when a fist is flying at you, someone is up in your face, red faced BOOM they swing. Grapple you to the floor etc I feel very 'empty' with Aikido, and thats the only way i can describe it. In all honesty i've gone back to street fighting. But without the fists or feet as my job wont allow it. Jus basic throw downs, bear hugs etc. But no Aikido, it just doesnt work, or hasnt felt natural.

Watch videos of real fights, caught on CCTV. And look at the speed someone geared up can throw a fist, split second. In no way can a technique be applied in a split second. And ive seen this with my own eyes, and its really REALLY woken me up...thus my choice to persue another art, and gracefully leave aikido behind.

It should have all clicked when i was told "you wont even begin to touch the basics for 5 years" etc etc. and talks of the "20 year technique" looking around at the dojos i've been to, and the people. It's more of a meeting gathering event than solid, hard self defence, neautrilizing. So i think all along i've picked the wrong art...and its very frustrating. Im 29 in three months, not getting any younger really. But you learn from these things and move on in life. Jo waving, and Bokken slashing, Ki channeling, and grabbing of wrists. But no sparring, hard contact, real REAL neautrilization i see all of this i actually needed, for my personal preference and i have picked the wrong art.

It's important to let people know in my opinion, and i belive i have the right to voice it. Its important that those new to aikido know that if they wish to learn an art for self defence and to be able to handle them selves if a fight confrontation was to happen. Then Aikido isn't the ideal choice for many reasons. It takes way to long to learn, it's more of a life growth art, as opposed to something you can be good at in 6 months etc. And on the mat is just so completely different to flinching, shouting, flailing aggressors, and i see this first hand five nights of the week. I think my job opened up my eyes to this...

I work two very bad clubs for three nights of the week, and ok clubs the other two nights, and i've never actually used any Aikido technique, without knowing it im sure the endless tai sabaki's have helped me movement wise, they must have. But as far as actual techniques? in real situations i've just taken someone to the ground, open hand slapped if i feel im in danger, or headlocked. Not once have i applyed a Nikkyo, Yonkyo, Shinage, etc and i'm dissapointed i havent. In reality everything happens way to fast to use Aikido techniques alone for the kind of job im doing, or for real street self defenceand i only noticed this since i started...

Of course there will be doormen who it works for and who use it. Perhaps they learned quicker, had better teachers etc or another art to back them up, but i was pure aikido no other arts. And i find the techniques in Aikido useless in real life situations. in fact, ive almost created my own system of holds, takedows etc through natural learning trial and error when confronted with people. And ive only been on the doors for 4 months.

The art i should have spent the last two years doing is an art called Krav Maga, another doorman introduced me to. No grading, no bowing, no spiritial stuff, no ki energy, no sticks, just short quick self defence in all situations, grappling, guns, knives he's been doing it for 3 months with no other background and it works, ive seen him use it in front of me on about four occasions. The streets are very very very nasty, when you see someone smash a pint glass in front of you and run for your face screaming...it's then when you realise the niceness and the "aikido is turning your back" approach is jus plain silly.

Also there seems to be almost something shameful about being able to learn an art quickly in Aikido/Martial art circles. But in practicality, if you can learn an art in 3-6 months, then just improve and improve...whats bad about that? Becoming good in 5 years may be honourable etc etc but in real life...? on the streets?? And even then, you wouldnt be able to throw a punch or even a kick if you needed to?? if you really really needed to??

I dont want those new to aikido to make the same mistake i did, and waste two maybe more years on something for the wrong reasons. Aikido is very relaxing, and i'm sure it has good stuff in there as far as how the body works, etc. And if someone was slow enough all the techniques could work. But i havent once...on my life seen anyone throw a punch as slow as they do in an aikido dojo, or aikido videos ive watched. SNAP...thats how they normally come flying. Out of the blue. Move out the way fine, but what then? throw a shinoage on them. We can all type about what we think would work, but try actually being there...

I personally feel in Aikido (because thats the only martial art i know) locks holds etc are not practical in a street situation. Unless you've had a good 5 or so years solid Aikido to perfect them? and thats just way to long. Aikido techniques I'd imagine most people like ive found i have, discard them almost completely and do what feels right..and in a split second, its not a yonkyo or shionage. Its a grapple, or a slap/punch if needed. Very ugly but very true.

BJJ, Chinese Kickboxing, Judo, Muay Thai, out of all of them Krav Maga seems to be the most practical and simple. In barely a month i feel like i could do something. 2 years with Aikido and im still unsure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajaQ2j0Al0

skip to 1:48 if you dont want to watch the whole thing. But its this point in the video which really hit home, the boxes the arts are put in, and how if you just want to defend yourself, and learn as quickly as possible...how to defend yourself. Also the point earlier on the guy makes about its not pretty, meant to be flowing, but simply meant to defend you, so you can run...

anyway...

Just my personal opinion and my thoughts. Maybe i will be back to post in a year how i'm doing with the Krav Maga but from this point on. I'm hanging up my Aikido KI and waving goodbye to the art with as much respect as is possible...

Not for me.

Thanks for reading have a happy and SAFE new year.
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:04 AM   #2
stuarttheobald
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I find what you have written quite interesting and to some stage correct.

If you are always training to do aikido at a slow speed then your techniques will improve but your ability to deal with a full speed attack will not.

I have been lucky enough to spend some time training with Sensei Joe Thambu who trainined aikido and then went to become a doorman to see if it was practical and useful. He found it was, and then went onto to produce a dvd showing restraint and removal techniques as a result.

I'd have a look at that dvd, it might help join the dots from your current level of aikido to a place where it becomes more functional for your job

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Old 12-31-2007, 04:45 AM   #3
Erik Jögimar
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

This is something i've been fighting with alot past few weeks, the insecurity and worry that it doesnt work if i find myself in confrontation. Or should i say *my aikido*?

No paths are forever. Nothing remains the same. If this is how you feel, then you're aware that this is not for you any longer and its time to move on.

Well done, and best of luck with whatever you undertake.

Just give me your wrist!
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:47 AM   #4
Mark Uttech
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

The only story that immediately came to my mind reading this thread, was the story of Terry Dobson working as a bouncer, disarming a drunk wielding a chainsaw.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 12-31-2007, 06:58 AM   #5
justin
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I hear what your saying and have been there felt that many times almost every session I end up thinking hmm that doest seem to work but just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean Aikido doesn't work it means my Aikido doest work, anyway you have made your choice which I totally respect.

On the video you have posted a lot of those kicks mostly based on karate versions appear to lack basic understanding and practicality.

Wishing you all the best for a difficult job.
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Old 12-31-2007, 07:00 AM   #6
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Been there, had the same issues...still do to a degree!

Leave Aikido, find something else that fits what you are looking for, that fits your goals.

I did, and suprisingly it helped me better understand aikido!

I now study it with a different outlook and perspective.

For me it was Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Modern Army Combatives.

Aikido did not change. I just now have a better outlook I think of where it fits into my life.

You can't make it something it is not, and sounds like you have found that out!

Good luck

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Old 12-31-2007, 08:45 AM   #7
crbateman
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

There was a time that I experienced some of the feelings that you have shared. For me, I stuck it out, and have been very glad that I did. I cannot adequately describe the level of great experiences I have shared with some truly remarkable people through my Aikido. But it has also taught me that it's not for everybody. Maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's not what you were looking for to begin with, hence your disappointment. Follow your gut, and you will find your way.
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Old 12-31-2007, 08:50 AM   #8
DonMagee
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I can understand your points, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say your job does not allow you to use strikes, yet you claim krav maga is better for your job? My training in krav maga was not about restraint, it was about killing people as fast as possible.

It would seem to me that a pure grappling art would be much more useful.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-31-2007, 09:28 AM   #9
Aikibu
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

I have told dozens of students over the years If you're not happy with Aikido go get a Shodan in something else THEN give Aikido a go...Your perspective may change a bit.

Good Luck. Some of your post (as Don Hinted at) does not make sense but hey what do you know? No disrespect but you're just a beginner.

Again Good Luck.

William Hazen

P.S. If you're working as a bouncer at a bar Then Aikido actually works GREAT...At least that is my experiance. Restraint, Diplomacy and Martial Awareness are the tools of a good bouncer. Having a Good Left Hook is cool too but destroying unrulely drunks usually leads to to you getting destroyed in return either by his friends or the legal system.

Last edited by Aikibu : 12-31-2007 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 12-31-2007, 10:56 AM   #10
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Good for you! Life is to short to waste on stuff you don´t enjoy or believe in.
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Old 12-31-2007, 11:29 AM   #11
odudog
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

When you do the Krav Maga, make sure to evaluate it against what you have already learned in your short time in Aikido. You will find out that it almost the same. The techniques will have different names and emphasis placed on different points, but the overall thing is still the same. A shihonage will always be shihonage. I've been watching Human Weapon and came to this conclusion despite the fact that my sensei has been telling this to me for years. The Krav Maga section in Human Weapon, the instructor was talking about Blasting and how it is unique to Krav Maga. I caught myself laughing for I have been taught this in Aikido years ago. We don't have a name for it, but we do it just about every class.
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Old 12-31-2007, 11:30 AM   #12
SeiserL
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Then I bow back with a smile
as you bow politely
and leave the dojo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-31-2007, 12:14 PM   #13
lbb
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Daniel,

Neither aikido nor any other style is going to be all things to all people, so I've no issue with what you say there. I'm curious, though, if it was a case of being sold a bill of goods when you joined up, or if you heard what you wanted to hear. Were you actually told that you would be able to quickly learn techniques that you could use to subdue an angry drunk without harm to either one of you?
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Old 12-31-2007, 02:30 PM   #14
Lyle Bogin
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

That whole thing sounded like planted advertising, with the video add to match.

We should do a reverse one....I was able to lay the smack down with ease. Gators feared my ground techniques. I was a bouncer in war zone (special hand-to-gun unit). but I never felt complete until ....AIKIDO! changed my life forever
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:42 PM   #15
DW Ederer
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

My Sensei is in charge of loss prevention at a big box retailer. He makes a number of arrests a week and teaches his employees how to make arrests. He has found aikido a very effective tool to quickly get people to the ground and hand cuffed. It seems to work quite well for him and for us against the fast round houses, kicks, etc. I think it's more how you practice rather than the actual techniques. All the students have found resistance just doesn't work if you're trained to capture motion and effectively apply techniques. It's not always pretty or precise but the primary techniques do work well.

I've also trained with some secret service agents that practice aikido because it will get people to the ground quickly and effectively.

By all means explore other methods but don't be surprised if some of you aikido training doesn't help what ever you transition into.
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:43 PM   #16
nagoyajoe
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Bye.
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:47 PM   #17
Aristeia
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I can understand your points, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say your job does not allow you to use strikes, yet you claim krav maga is better for your job? My training in krav maga was not about restraint, it was about killing people as fast as possible.

It would seem to me that a pure grappling art would be much more useful.
What Don said - Krav seems an odd choice given your comments. Having watched the vid I am also not sure what they mean by the "full contact" part of full contact krav - looked to me like most krav I've seen - no contact at all to speak of in the training....?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:07 PM   #18
DonMagee
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

After reading this again, I noticed a few more things that bother me about this. SO, I'm going to point them out (slow day here)
Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post

After two years commited learning i feel the enviornment of the mat, the bowing, the measured, often slow mo attacks, and the spiritual aspect thats to heavily influenced the art, hasn't at all prepared me for real face to face confrontations and attacks.
The video you post below has the exact same kind of training in it. The exact same kind of techniques. How is the training method different?

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post

BJJ, Chinese Kickboxing, Judo, Muay Thai, out of all of them Krav Maga seems to be the most practical and simple. In barely a month i feel like i could do something. 2 years with Aikido and im still unsure...
If you still only 'feel' you can do something, your training methods are still lacking. I know exactly what I am capable of in any given situation. This is a common problem with the types of training you are seeking out, and why I stopped training krav maga. 'Feeling' is not good enough.

Quote:
Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajaQ2j0Al0

skip to 1:48 if you dont want to watch the whole thing. But its this point in the video which really hit home, the boxes the arts are put in, and how if you just want to defend yourself, and learn as quickly as possible...how to defend yourself. Also the point earlier on the guy makes about its not pretty, meant to be flowing, but simply meant to defend you, so you can run...

anyway...
After watching that video, I fail to see how it is any different than the aikido I was taught. Except for they didn't wear gi.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:09 PM   #19
Robert Cowham
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

There are many different ways of studying aikido.

One option might be to try with Dave Ruebens who teaches Yoshinkan style, as well as one of the most well known and attended Bouncer training seminars in London.

http://www.tipped.co.uk/listings/780...an+Aikido+Dojo

Yoshinkan isn't particularly my preference, but given Dave's background it might suite you.

Robert
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:45 PM   #20
Don
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

There is no doubt that if you work a job that requires you to use non-lethal force and in a controlled manner, you need to have concentrated quick training that will give you something to work with. In general, aikido does not provide this path. If you LIKE aikido, and are willing to stick with it long enough you will find that if can be very effective. If you somehow either thought or were told that you would gain a quick ability to have a good self-denfense repitore from aikido, then you were either wrong or were "misled".

I had much the same reaction as someone else who watched the Krav Maga sequence on Human Weapon.....dang that's aikido. Now I will grant you that aikido does not as a general rule emphasize the atemi, either punching, elbows or kicks that are shown in Krav Maga, but they are there. Its a sometimes unfortunate artifact of inheriting a teaching method from the east, wherein the student is expected to discover some things for themselves.

Well, I hope you find what you are looking for; my guess is that it will have some elements of aikido; they just won't call it that.
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Old 12-31-2007, 08:15 PM   #21
L. Camejo
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

To be honest, it sounds like the OP went to an Aikido dojo and expected to get training that would better be found in a Bouncer training program. I think he should move on and find what will suit him better, but I get this funny feeling that he does not really know what that is (especially after the KM references). It also sounds like he has not been in that many real altercations due to the level of speculation in the original post, another reason why he may not understand Aikido's applicability to his needs.

As far as Bouncing skills and training methods that prepare you for a "real fight" go you should take a read of this book by Peyton Quinn, ex-bouncer - Real Fighting: Adrenaline Stress Conditioning Through Scenario-Based Training. Interesting thing in this book is that much of what is taught as principles of dealing with a real fight are taught in any Aikido dojo that has a serious martially-oriented practice.

Quote:
I dont want those new to aikido to make the same mistake i did, and waste two maybe more years on something for the wrong reasons.
This irked me a bit (though I should know better) since it paints "Aikido" with a very broad brush and does a tremendous injustice to those dojo who actually teach the art in a manner that makes it physically useful in a real threat environment. Imho if one is learning "aikido is turning your back" then I can see why one is wasting time. "Turning your back" is as far as one can get from practical Aikido.

I hope the OP one day gets enough understanding to find the right method or methods for him.

Gambate.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 12-31-2007, 10:26 PM   #22
asiawide
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

You're right. It takes too much time to learn aikido. And aikido doesn't have solid teaching method. 'Saw it? Do it!' policy of Aikido put you into 20 yerars techniques trap. And most techniques are designed to be gentle and safe. It could be a weak point.

But it also means you can practice with 100% speed and power without injury. And aikido can be nasty enough. In Japan, there's a speed limit controller for cars, so even if you buy Porsche, you can't exceed the limit. I heard there's workaround for it. Same goes to Aikido, you ca exceed the limit.

Anyway good luck!
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Old 12-31-2007, 10:41 PM   #23
Karen Wolek
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
TImho if one is learning "aikido is turning your back" then I can see why one is wasting time. "Turning your back" is as far as one can get from practical Aikido.
If I turn my back, my sensei chokes me.

Hope you find what you are looking for.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:31 AM   #24
mickeygelum
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Just my opinion.

Mickey

http://http://www.aikiweb.com/forums...566#post196566
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:00 AM   #25
roadster
 
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Re: I'm Leaving Aikido

Years back I learned both Krav Maga and Aikido techniques in the police academy and have used them both in the field since then. Having said that, we live in a PC world where going straight for the throat can get you sued for everything you own so if possible I tend to stick to my limited Aikido training.

For those of you that wear a gun on your hip, Aikido will most certainly help you keep it there.

Do whatever you feel you need to do. However, blanket statements based on your own personal experiences with Aikido won't get you a cup of tea and a biscut.
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