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Old 10-09-2008, 04:13 PM   #26
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Hi and thank you for givin g food for thougtht!

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
1. as previously described by attacking the legs. There is nothing nage can do about it, because he is not locking uke by any physical leverage.
One hand on ukes neck, shoulder, head. Other arm on ukes shoulder, upper arm, elbow: You can uke manage the way you want.
Uke never is far from nages center.

Quote:
2. other nice counter for uke is simply to continue the spiral that nage started, turning in nage direction and then go completely out far from nage.
Hm, I think I know what you mean. But the move, nage starts ist not a spiral. It's an attempt to slam ukes face to the ground.

Quote:
I did it many times when I practiced with folks from that style and every time it was very big surprise and they were not able to find a way to avoid this opening. You don't need to be very advanced karateka, practice judo or jj to do so simple spin out. Everybody will do it very successfully. LOL
Yes indeed! You are rigtht!
That's one thing to be learned! As I said: It's important to lead the shoulder or upper arm of uke so he can't spin out or do something like that. If you know how to do that it's easy.

More interesting to me: You think there is a sholarship of Tissier Shihan and Endo Shihan in the USA? (> "that stile")

Quote:
3. this cutting motion doesn't work with tall and heavy uke -- nage is using here only power from shoulders and not from center.
It's difficult with tall and heavy uke. But it works if you know how to do it. May I ask you: Where did nage touch you? Shoulder, neck, temple?

Quote:
From what I understand , in this way of doing iriminage nage expect uke to simply get up once when he is on the tatami,
No, it's an attempt t to slam ukes face to the ground. Irimi nage - out of this situation - happens, if that doesn't work and uke ist getting up again.

uke in our training tries to get nage's legs or tries to spin out of the motion or tries to counter nage. That ist normal in our training.

In our practice cooparation isn't considered to be good ukemi.

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 10-09-2008 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 10-09-2008, 05:39 PM   #27
odudog
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

It's not necessary for the head to go to the shoulder. If you do the tenkan really well, uke will be completely off balance. I should know, for that is what happened to me at the Aikikai Honbu dojo by the Sensei for that class. It was done so well on me that I didn't feel a thing yet I was flat on my back with the ceiling spinning in my head. The video recorder in my head has serious gaps in it about how the technique was done but I'm positive that my head never touched his shoulder.
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Old 10-09-2008, 09:03 PM   #28
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Thank you for that video. Saito Sensei is an amazing treasure
whom we could all stand to learn from; even after his passing. His basics are incredible and inspiring.

I would like to add this video of Ikeda Sensei as another consideration in the concept/application/practice of Irimi Nage.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=80vrifS9yiI

Both of these teachers approaches are certainly worthy of study.

Best,
Jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:15 PM   #29
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Shoulder control with Irimi nage (straight, not ura) as Saito Morihiro used to do: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7ouo6a...eature=related from about 6:40
Actually, Video #5 in that same Saito series starts with a few minutes of the same iriminage, but with more detail, some history, and an amusing anecdote

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fOdOU9...eature=related

Video 6 of 6 starts right in with irimi---pun semi-intentional

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yfkDpg...eature=related

Last edited by Joe McParland : 10-09-2008 at 11:20 PM. Reason: added link for second video

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Old 10-10-2008, 01:59 AM   #30
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

You are right, video #5 is more relevant to the discussion.

Quote:
"...so this 5th dan from hombu tries to do irimi nage on an Iwama shodan..."
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Old 10-10-2008, 04:04 AM   #31
Flintstone
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Jennifer, Carsten, if you don't lock my head into your shoulder for irimi nage, I will just spin out of it, or roll out of it. That is, if I don't want to counter. I've always had. And I'm not that good at Aikido.
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Old 10-10-2008, 05:10 AM   #32
grondahl
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
More interesting to me: You think there is a sholarship of Tissier Shihan and Endo Shihan in the USA? (> "that stile")
I´m not american but I do know that there are teachers influenced by Yamaguchi sensei in USA (Gleason, Yamaguchi etc).

Quote:
In our practice cooparation isn't considered to be good ukemi.
Now I know that your kidding...
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Old 10-10-2008, 05:48 AM   #33
grondahl
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

As for teachers influenced by Yamaguchi sensei or his students.

That would be Gleason, Suzuki etc.

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I´m not american but I do know that there are teachers influenced by Yamaguchi sensei in USA (Gleason, Yamaguchi etc).
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:12 AM   #34
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Jennifer, Carsten, if you don't lock my head into your shoulder for irimi nage, I will just spin out of it, or roll out of it. That is, if I don't want to counter. I've always had. And I'm not that good at Aikido.
Thank you for announcing!
That gives me the chance to do an exception if we meet you on the mat.

Anyway: Spinning out of a technique, simply going away, not following if not necessary are simple but good methods to help nage to improve his technique.

Carsten
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:19 AM   #35
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
In our practice cooparation isn't considered to be good ukemi.
Now I know that your kidding...
Hm, is it in Iwama Ryu? Don't think so?

Sorry: I don't get the point.

Carsten
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Old 10-10-2008, 08:13 AM   #36
grondahl
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Aikido ukemi is by definition cooperative.

Last edited by grondahl : 10-10-2008 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:38 AM   #37
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
And I'm not that good at Aikido.
Hey, I don't care who you think you are. You can't talk about my friend Alejandro that way!

Best,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 10-10-2008 at 10:45 AM.

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Old 10-10-2008, 01:54 PM   #38
Flintstone
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Anyway: Spinning out of a technique, simply going away, not following if not necessary are simple but good methods to help nage to improve his technique.
And with that very intention it is done. No other. No ego here; nothing to prove.
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Old 10-10-2008, 01:55 PM   #39
Flintstone
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Hey, I don't care who you think you are. You can't talk about my friend Alejandro that way!
Ok, you earned some beers! Go get them, I'll top the bill !!
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:43 PM   #40
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Ok, you earned some beers! Go get them, I'll top the bill !!
You might be sorry .

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:46 PM   #41
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

I'll escape it even if you drill my head into your shoulder and secure it with iron rivets. You can do kokyunage without turning it into "choke-you-nage"... too much of a grip will just piss uke off and make him escape anyway.

A firm but cautious handling is what I find to be most effective against the widest range of ukes.

Saying is a "20 year technique" is like when the buddhists say "the manifestation of 10,000 things". It is not so much the number, but the implication of a very (perhaps infinitely) long time, just as "10,000 things" means everything.
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:38 PM   #42
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

This technique is one of the techniques that I think is, from one view point, utterly useless.

If you have a sword and the guy is holding on for dear life...yes it has its points. Other than that it has perplexed me as a waste of time. (Sounds harder than I mean it...I know it can be useful for other things such as harmony and philosophical purposes I suppose.)

Sorry, not much to add to the thread, but this is one move that sticks out, as it were, in all the moves that I do as being kind of pointless. (again, for the most part, as I know it is as you make it.)

Peace

dAlen

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Old 10-24-2008, 03:46 PM   #43
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
This technique is one of the techniques that I think is, from one view point, utterly useless.
That's interesting. This Iriminage---or, Kokyunage, depending on your lineage---is one of my most effective standbys outside the dojo (used against non-savvy rough-housing friends). Practicing disappearing into that safe position behind an adversary and having them in a position to choke, control, or throw is quite useful

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Old 10-24-2008, 07:11 PM   #44
raul rodrigo
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

I'm with Joe on this, Dalen. Irimi nage is very practical. Its one of my favorites.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:31 AM   #45
dalen7
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
That's interesting. This Iriminage---or, Kokyunage, depending on your lineage---is one of my most effective standbys outside the dojo (used against non-savvy rough-housing friends). Practicing disappearing into that safe position behind an adversary and having them in a position to choke, control, or throw is quite useful
Must have a different technique the name is applied to - we do something totally different. Sorry for the confusion!
You definitely dont have opportunity to choke with this move...though maybe if I analyze it more there may be an opening - hmmms, something to think about.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 10-25-2008, 03:34 AM   #46
dalen7
 
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
I'm with Joe on this, Dalen. Irimi nage is very practical. Its one of my favorites.
But for us irminage and kokyunage are, I would say, like night and day. As I mentioned, my bad, so to speak, as it appears we are not talking about the same thing. Guess it happens sometimes.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
If i ever get a video camera, Ill put the move on youtube.
Again, its more for someone with a sword in their hand and the attacker is trying to hold on for dear life in order not to be knifed...and how to 'shake' them off.

As I mentioned, I may not be seeing the other full potentials for this move yet...which may well be true.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 10-25-2008, 07:19 AM   #47
Ketsan
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Aikido ukemi is by definition cooperative.
I'd say ukemi by definition is non-resistive, but I wouldn't say it is co-opertative unless you're using it to teach, in which case you're not recieving technique anyway.
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:38 PM   #48
Harm-ony
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

I think...
don't forget to 'unbalance' the uke first, and good timing o apply the kokyu nage, so uke has no time to find his balance again... and always keep our shoulders to be ralxed and breath normally....

Peace and Love,

unisba aikido club dojo bandung indonesia

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Old 11-04-2008, 03:57 AM   #49
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Kokyu Nage (Twenty Year Technique)

Twenty year techniques? hmmm
I wonder where this myth comes from??

Does it REALLY take 20 years!!?

Tony
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