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Old 06-01-2006, 04:43 PM   #1
David Orange
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Punishing Uke

I find something very disturbing in modern aikido. It's the idea that the uke (not the opponent, but the training partner) must be unresistant and, if he is not, he is to be punished. On various boards, I've read all kinds of comments about "What I do" if uke resists. "I'll just break his knee," one guy said. I've read of people slamming ukes around for resisting, hard atemi, etc. And in going around to many dojos, I've taken some nasty shots delivered in the middle of a technique when I wasn't resisting at all.

I find this dishonorable and a perversion of the idea that "in aikido there is no resistance."

To me, "There is no resistance in aikido" means that NAGE never resists anything UKE does.

The other way around, it's like practicing archery with an assistant who rushes the target around to where your arrow is going.

It's like practicing marksmanship with a machine that automatically places the target where your bullet is going to be.

An uke who always falls no matter what slovenly, unrealistic "technique" we apply is just lying to us. And if we require that he lie to us, we're lying to ourselves. And that seems to be common in modern aikido. I guess that's why there are so many discussions about whether aikido "really works" and whether it really is a "martial art." People have lied to each other so much, they do not know anymore.

My teacher, Minoru Mochizuki sensei, an uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba before the war, always said "Truth can only be built on truth."

That, for me, is the North Star of training and attitude. And what that means is that the uke MUST be realistic both in attack and in response to the aikido efforts of the nage or it isn't real aikido.

That means that uke must NOT throw himself physically off balance. I spent a lot of years training in judo, karate and sword and I do NOT go off balance when delivering an attack. Not easily. Of course, Murai sensei would laugh at that statement. One of Mochizuki sensei's earliest students (now judan, head of seifukai), he is about 4 feet, 10 inches tall, weighing no more than about 90 pounds. He could always throw me with the lightest touch. Lots of my American training partners said I resisted too much, but tiny Murai sensei said "You fall too easily."

Well, I couldn't help it. Whatever I did against him led me to the floor very quickly. I could never feel anything to resist in his technique. And if I did feel something and resisted it, it took me to the floor. That's the way aikido should be.

The actual definition of aiki is attacking the "ura" of uke's kiai attack (omote).

The "omote" of a kiai attack is pure strength and immovable balance. Facing that kiai, you can hardly beat it, but that is only true of the "front" of that form--the omote. Going around to the back or side of the kiai attack, you find weakness and unbalance. So aiki is employing the ura of a kiai attack. Kiai/aiki. They're opposite sides of the coin.

But this tells us that nage and uke cannot BOTH be "doing aikido" because aiki ONLY EXISTS AS THE URA OF KIAI. If the attacker does not have kiai, the defender does not have aiki.

Also, think about it: aikido is an art of self-defense. The attacker is not "defending." He is "attacking". So what he's doing is NOT aikido. NAGE does aikido and uke does kiai.

Besides a lot of aikido, I've done a lot of dancing in my time. I used to really enjoy Cajun dances, waltzes and square dances. In all these, the essence of the movement is balancing weight and momentum. What makes aikido different from dance? It's that our partner is not cooperating. If the partner cooperates too much in aikido, it becomes bad dance. In good dance, one never throws his partner to the ground.

Well, even being on the mat together is "co-operating," but anyway, uke should not cooperate more than an archery target. He shouldn't rush to make himself fall down just because nage flicks his hand. And he should NOT throw himself stupidly into his attacks because only an idiot does that and you don't even have to defend against someone that stupid.

For aikido training to be meaningful (for it to be even good misogi), uke must at least deliver a meaningfully shaped attack with speed, focus, a definite target and good balance. If you really want to know if your aikido will work as self defense, a friendly karate man is a good person to know. He won't throw himself off balance with his attack and unless you really do good aiki, you won't get him off balance by your own efforts, either. Same for an experienced judo man.

But no one seems to want a realistic uke at all. Realistic ukes seem to be both feared and hated to the point that any time some people miss a technique, they blame it on uke's "resisting" and their thoughts turn to slamming, striking or in some way punishing uke. And that is just wrong.

Thanks to the heavily resistant training I underwent, (uke resisting--not nage), I learned to not resist the resistant uke, but to change techniques or the direction of my ongoing technique. And if he resists that, I switch to something else. Uke can resist me very heavily before I get the sense that I need do anything remotely forceful or violent. I can remain in aiki far past the point where uke resists very heavily. If I strike, it's focused and never contacts more than very lightly. This was the way Mochizuki sensei taught and the randori in his dojo was just incredible. It was scary and awe-inspiring, but it was powerfully beautiful. I've never seen such randori anywhere else.

Someone among these discussions said sometimes we just have to have the grace to admit that we blew a technique and start over. I think that's the best attitude to have.

Uke is our partner and we will also serve as uke for him (or we should). When uke "resists," it may be an involuntary nervous system response. Such responses are there for our survival and it would be foolish to condition them out of ourselves or out of our partners. If our aiki techniques are causing such involuntary resistance, it's bad technique and, invariably, we find that it is nage who is resisting and not uke.

I know that in this modern age, it is very common to teach uke to throw himself off balance with his attack and never resist nage's technique. But if he CAN resist nage's technique, it's NAGE's mistake--not uke's. Rather than having an evil, punishing attitude toward uke, we need to look closely at ourselves.

Best wishes.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 06-01-2006 at 04:53 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 06-01-2006, 04:50 PM   #2
kaishaku
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Re: Punishing Uke

I think that resistance definitely has its place within any training.

I'm also a big fan of lots of freestyle/jiyuwaza/randori. I'll learn 10 new things from 10 seconds of randori.
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:55 PM   #3
David Orange
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Re: Punishing Uke

[quote=Keith Krajewski]I think that resistance definitely has its place within any training.[quote]

I think it's wrong to resist to the point that people get frustrated and quit. You shouldn't resist so much that they never experience success in the technique, but once they have the general idea, the only way to make it more accurate and realistic is to resist their technique when it breaks down.

Thanks for the reply.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 06-01-2006, 06:05 PM   #4
kaishaku
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Re: Punishing Uke

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
I think it's wrong to resist to the point that people get frustrated and quit.
Oh, of course. No one should want to be "100% resistance all the time guy."
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:44 PM   #5
MikeLogan
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

With the addendum added in your second post, David, you offer good thoughts. Uke should remain in a visco-elastic state of mind and body, not jelly, not rock. Nage should be like wise, not resistant to what an opponent wants, but welcoming it as something to work with.

Thanks!

michael.
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:51 PM   #6
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Punishing Uke

As I have gotten better, I have often found lazy practitioners who have given up trying to improve their practice to rely too much on atemi. I should know, I was one of those lazy people. However, take the atemi with thanks for it is good practice in toughening up the body and learning how to minimise the effect of an atemi for the martial part of your practice. It is also a very good opportunity to practice your kaeshiwaza and henkawaza. For instance, go from morotetori on the first arm to a morotetori on the second striking arm as they do the atemi. Just don't do that too often or your instructor will become upset at your disrupting the class.

Oh, by the way, if you take ukemi for many Shihan and proceed to throw yourself, you will be reprimanded at the least, or injured at the worst. This is especially true if they are doing henkawaza and you don't keep your balance when they are changing to the second technique.

I often do an atemi on people who don't resist strongly enough and fall too easily. If they are so easy to throw, why do a technique at all? Just hit them and get it over with. No need for Aikido.

Rock
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Old 06-01-2006, 09:19 PM   #7
David Orange
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Re: Punishing Uke

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote:
I often do an atemi on people who don't resist strongly enough and fall too easily. If they are so easy to throw, why do a technique at all? Just hit them and get it over with. No need for Aikido.
If that's what they're doing, I just brush them off.

As for atemi to facilitate technique, I never hit anyone with any force of contact, but with a lot of force of intent. Having a long karate history, I can stop with that hair's breadth of contact, but it's enough to make uke move.

And along that line, I have experienced a good bit of the toughening effect of being struck, but in general in aikido, I think it's bad to actually hit the partner. Especially if he is training sincerely and not fighting the technique.

For instance, I once attended a big mainstream aikido seminar where the nonresisting peaceful soft style was emphasized. One guy from just such a group was practicing with me and when I allowed him to do what we call tembin nage (uke's arm twisted outward, nage's inside arm passing under uke's elbow), he snapped hard up under my elbow. For no reason. One thing kept me from being injured: ukemi developed in resistant training.

This is part of what I mean, also, by "punishing" uke. Either taking out failure on him or taking advantage of his non-resistance to gratuitously hurt him.

Another example: I used to know a fellow who would do techniques twice. Sankyo, for instance. He would apply the technique and let off when uke tapped out. Then when uke was relaxing, he would do the technique again, gratuitously, when they had let down their guard after tapping. I saw some people get really angry at him about this. He was always smug. Several people could have returned the favor, but everyone was always too polite. Sometimes, people like that, you just have to stop associating with them at all.

Aikido really is a pretty good model of karma. We will get out of life as we do unto others.

Thanks for the reply.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 06-01-2006, 10:18 PM   #8
DonMagee
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Re: Punishing Uke

Great Posts David. I agree with you.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:38 PM   #9
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
To me, "There is no resistance in aikido" means that NAGE never resists anything UKE does.
I was taught that "Uke is never wrong."
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
But no one seems to want a realistic uke at all. Realistic ukes seem to be both feared and hated to the point that any time some people miss a technique, they blame it on uke's "resisting" and their thoughts turn to slamming, striking or in some way punishing uke. And that is just wrong.
Uke does need to modulate the attack to the scale of nage's ability, i.e. -- when working slowly, continue energy in the natural curve, just slower. Taking "advantage" of the expanded timescale for learnig kihon techniques in practice is simply poor traing, for both uke and nage.
Quote:
I know that in this modern age, it is very common to teach uke to throw himself off balance with his attack and never resist nage's technique. But if he CAN resist nage's technique, it's NAGE's mistake--not uke's. Rather than having an evil, punishing attitude toward uke, we need to look closely at ourselves.
I pray the former is not true, as it is not true fo our dojo. The latter is very true.
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
As for atemi to facilitate technique, I never hit anyone with any force of contact, but with a lot of force of intent. ... but in general in aikido, I think it's bad to actually hit the partner. Especially if he is training sincerely and not fighting the technique.
I don't now that i agree about Atemi as a toguhening exercise, but I feel that knowing where they are and always looking for them puts attention where it should be -- at my partner's center.

I find that a good <Tap> into openings that nage or uke leaves in attack/technique helps him/her to close up those suki. Just telling him about an opeining misses the point. That only communicates to his conscious mind. Tapping the ribs talks to the "monkey-brain" in the back of the skulll, and the lesson is far less likely to need repeating, not becasue of its severity ( it shouldn't hurt him, just get his attention) but because it is direct communication ot apart of the brain not mediated by intellect.

Atemi restablishes a connection that is about to be lost, which is the looseness (m i.e. - disconnection) you are describing in the whole practice movement that permits room for "resistance." Resistance developing means that your connection to the partner is becoming non-existent.

Atemi, even just implied, tightens things up. A good example, if you have the limp fish-grip uke for katatedori techniques, simply look him in the eye, tell him what you can reach and grab below belt level, and extend your hand. The grip becomes suddenly -- very real.

Osae waza -- pins and controls nikkyo, sankyo etc. are also about maintaining connection (and insurance on that connection, in place of a means to reestablish it). Osae waza signal to uke's center to move with you; they are not for causing mere pain-compliance. Pain compliance simply doesn't work on drunks druggees or even just a completely sober guy worked up into a really good adrenaline rage.

Quote:
Krajewski wrote:
I think that resistance definitely has its place within any training.
I don't. If I do not respond to the signals to move that nage is giving me I am not learning good ukewaza. I am not protecting myself. On the other hand, if nage gves me an opening, I will take the offered ukemi to avoid injury -- and hit him or throw him as I do it. A proper kaeshi waza is not resisting the partner's tehcnique or attack but applying aiki and becoming part of it to make it your own.

Cordially,
Erick Mead
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:50 AM   #10
xuzen
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

Ah! Back to the topic of resistant uke.

There is a very blurr line between a constructive resistant uke and a non-constructive uke. You resist too hard and you are labelled an a@@hole. You do not resist hard enough, you are labelled a limp fish. Sometimes your resistant level is the same, but partnering with different uke, you will be labelled as such anyway. It seems no matter what we do, uke seems to be always wrong. It does seem that uke must be a psychic and able to read the mind of the tori to match the level of intensity.

In many aikido school, kata or waza practice is the most common method form of learning a technique. Please remember that a waza/kata is just a tool for learning, you are not there to shiai or win medals. Just do the technique and take the opportunity to learn. Waza is not the place to compete or to be seen as place to test your technique ala "t3h str33t" effectiveness.

Randori or jiyu-waza is the place for testing your "str33t effectiveness". This is also the place where uke is allowed to come to attack in any form he wishes or those determined by the sensei, this is the place where tori is allowed to transition, atemi, etc to work on their fighting skills.

My advise to potential uke is there will be time to test "str33t effectiveness" but waza / kata practice is not the place nor time to do that.

My advise to tori is if you are looking to hone your fighting skill, do randori or jiyu waza and do lots of it.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-02-2006, 02:56 AM   #11
xuzen
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

I do notice that in tachi-dori and jo-dori exercise, the problems of resistant uke is not so great... anyone else notice this phenomenon?

I can't point my finger at it, but it seems to me, when a weapon comes into play, both tori and uke suddenly becomes more cooperative for fear of injury and tend not to be so gung-ho. Is my observation accurate?

Thoughts and opinion anyone?

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-02-2006, 04:31 AM   #12
happysod
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Re: Punishing Uke

Quote:
becomes more cooperative for fear of injury and tend not to be so gung-ho
to an extent I agree, but I think it more emphasizes the degree of trust between two training partners - certainly with people I trust there's less difference between with weapons and without. However, I'd happily admit that live blades certainly remove my normal attempts to win at any cost or be a sneaky bugger when attacking.

With regards to Dave's original comments - nice to read I'm not the only one who gets fed up of atemi and force being used because the skill just isn't there. I do get bored of the "just hit them in the nuts" brigade, haven't they ever heard of movement or disengaging?
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Old 06-02-2006, 05:24 AM   #13
Mark Freeman
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Re: Punishing Uke

Quote:
As for atemi to facilitate technique, I never hit anyone with any force of contact, but with a lot of force of intent. Having a long karate history, I can stop with that hair's breadth of contact, but it's enough to make uke move.
I agree with a well executed atemi it is enough to move uke's mind, the body will inevitably react, therefore allowing progress towards the desired conclusion. Which in the case of aikido is to throw or immobilise.

This whole question of what is 'good' or 'bad' ukemi in regards to resistance, seems like a discussion that will engage aikidoka for a long time to come.

Good aikido surely looks for the path of least resistance, so if resistance is present, nage does not go against the resistance but with it. This it seems is not the easiest of skills to develop, as naturally people want to fight fire with fire rather than water.

Quote:
I know that in this modern age, it is very common to teach uke to throw himself off balance with his attack and never resist nage's technique. But if he CAN resist nage's technique, it's NAGE's mistake--not uke's. Rather than having an evil, punishing attitude toward uke, we need to look closely at ourselves.
I am unaware of this common trend that David speaks about. Although I train in a 'soft' co-operative environment, throwing oneself is positively frowned upon. The other day on the mat with my teacher he was watching some practice ( high grade ), he started looking around the dojo and asked the uke if he knew what he was looking for, the uke seemed confused, sensei said - "I am looking for the film crew, as you look like you are auditioning for a film"

I do agree that if uke follows nage's technique with non resistance, if the technique is 'wrong' uke's non resistant following will show up the point that it all 'locks up'. I will often use this as a basis of finding out when I can't obviously 'see' what is going wrong with a students practice.

There is no need for an evil punishing attitude towards uke or for that matter nage if something is not right. Both roles are a practice in the priciples of aikido. Both roles take time, practice, and focussed intent to improve. Having said that different teachers obviously have their own background and agendas to work from, and how they make ukemi themselves is their desired approach.

For me the 'art' of ukemi is an honest search for the truth in the technique, you can't find the truth with a closed mind, you have to be free and open to explore the extremities of what is and isn't in the movement.

I sometimes get my students to be fully resistant for demonstration purposes to show that it is possible ( and often even easier ) to overcome such resistance. It is also quite 'tricky' for the uke as their own relaxed co ordination is diminished when they create the tension of 'resistance', thereby making it harder for them to escape without 'pain'. Then we go back to non- resistant training

Just a few thoughts,

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 06-02-2006, 06:32 AM   #14
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Punishing Uke

[quote=David Orange]If that's what they're doing, I just brush them off.

. . . .

And along that line, I have experienced a good bit of the toughening effect of being struck, but in general in aikido, I think it's bad to actually hit the partner. Especially if he is training sincerely and not fighting the technique.

/QUOTE]

Hey, so I am evil. (That is the best I could do for an evil grin.)
You good guys need someone like me to be evil so that you can be good. All that two sides thing / ying-yang / etc.

Honestly, I guess I would just do as the locals since I am a visitor in the local. It isn't my dojo so I would not place my values on their practice but just practice as they do. If they like hard resistance and lots of atemi, fine. If they like hard resistance and no atemi or force but good technique, even better. If they like no resistance and flowing technique, fine. Their dojo, their rules, and their way of doing techniques. If I visit, I am there to learn their way of doing things without valuation, not to impose my values on my training with them since that would not allow me to learn what that teacher is trying to teach. Of course, I tend to push the envelope, even in their own ways.

It would be the same at a seminar. If someone goes past the bounds of the seminar, it is your duty to inform them of their faux pas so that junior students don't get injured. As a Shidoin, it was even my formal job to do so. I have been sent to "inform" practitioners, even those of a higher rank, of their faux pas. The rule of the "informing" I have been told, is "no talking". You teach them by doing to them what they are doing to others, only harder. If they still don't understand, do it even harder until they get the message or leave the mat, voluntarily or involuntarily, or until the Shihan-dai calls this dog off.

In my dojo, my rules. Hard resistance but not so much as to be injured. Enough to stop even me if I don't do it right. Students never know wether I am going to demonstrate an ineffective way or effective way so they have to give me the same amount of resistance all the time. I don't like throwing atemi too much since it slows down my movement a bit and distracts from my flow at times. Also, I have found it a crutch for my bad execution. Less I rely on atemi, more I have been able to improve my techniques and more I have discovered the correct applications of the principles. The discoveries that lead from not being able to do a technique have been so exciting that it keeps my enthusiasm for Aikido going a long time. I keep remembering the line about the only way to learn is by making mistakes, if you never make mistakes, you never learn. So, I force my students to force me to make mistakes.

Rock
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Old 06-02-2006, 07:12 AM   #15
DaveS
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Re: Punishing Uke

In my limited experience, I've found that heavy resistance against a senoir student or (particularly) sensei when they're trying to do a particular technique results in them changing technique and direction to move with your resistance, and you just end up getting thrown a lot harder and in a direction that you weren't expecting, which isn't too pleasant. Resisting hard against a junior student just stops them doing the technique and learning something - it seems to be quite easy to resist a technique if you know exactly what's coming and know that nage (eg me) doesn't know how to flow into a different technique and isn't perfect on the initial technique.

But there seems to be a fine line between making it hard to learn by resisting too much and making it hard to learn by throwing yourself across the room every time nage looks at you.
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:32 AM   #16
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

We often change between "dancing" and "resistant" uke. Dancing is needed to keep nage soft or make him softer and more perceptive. The purpose of the "resistant training" is less to check if it works, but to check, if nage is still soft and perceptive - and thus the technique works. It works also the hard way, but that is not the intension of our training. Well there are also some exercises to ensure that we can change to the hard way, in case we need.

But first I like to rename some expressions. Uke should never be punished, but taught.
Example 1: "You'd better try not to keep your arm straight. It might spell this technique, but I can break your elbow easily" without any word - just show, what you could do.
Example 2 (better solution): "If you do this, I might not be able to do the shihonage, which I was told to, but I can easily change to kotegaeshi" again without any spoken word.
Example 3 (even better): "You try to stop my move? Oh it is easy to follow your intention a little bit, redirect it, change my position or angle to you just a little bit and do exactly, what I wanted to do".
Well it is a lie, it is absolutely not easy, but if a good aikidoka does it to you it looks so easy and natural, that you cannot believe, it was difficult - until you try.

And Uke should not really be resistant or non-resistant, he should be protective. That means his intent should not be to spoil your technique - which is easy to most nage, when you know, what he is told to do, and hist intent should not be to just do a stupid technique and unbalance himself on purpose. He should do a required technique in a way, that he is protected as good as possible against any counter-attack, which could include the technique to be trained, but should not based specifically on knowing, which technique should come.

The level of course depends on the skills of nage and uke and the purpose of the lesson.

Protective means also to escape greater harm. So if uke does not see a chance to continue the attack, he is allowed to roll out. He does not need to wait for pain, when it necessarily would come.

I have seen exaggeration on the last point.
"I know nikyo hurts, so I go down, before you take my wrist"
"I know you could kill me so I roll out before the attack started", which is a good idea in real life, but how can we do practice, then?
"If the technique would be done properly, I had to roll, so I roll, even though your technique would never work at all"

The the first two excuses are far away so that nobody would accept this, but I have seen them. The last one is close to border, depending how you read it. On my level, we still do it in a way "I feel, that the technique is at its end, so I roll for you. I guess, I had other choices, but at least I felt the direction and according to your level, there is nothing I need to correct now. Either it is sensei's task or I 'll do that later, probably in a few weeks."

My uke even do that for me, especially in kokyunage, but you could use this phrase probably for all my techniques

This is my humble opinion - not really humble, as I think of myself as a great aikidoka - at least in theory. But I am always humble enough to accept corrections on the mat and in the web. Even if they sometimes hurt and feel like punishment.


All the best

Dirk
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Old 06-02-2006, 04:29 PM   #17
pezalinski
 
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Re: Punishing Uke, IMHO

I've recently had an eye-opening in regards to resistance (as uke) during techniques, and I'd like to share: Uke aren't punished by good technique, they punish themselves. And, IMHO:

"Resistance is Futile (for Beginners)."

Beginners need not apply... resistance. Unless they have a good henkawaza ready. And henkawaza is properly understood to be advanced technique... so, again, beginners need not apply...henkawaza

As a training partner, especially working with beginners, my objective should be to help the other person to learn the technique be practiced. Sometimes by modeling modeling the proper ukemi, so that they can model the proper technique -- and this method may require that I resist ineffective technique by guiding it where it should go. Again, IMHO.

In honest practice, with advanced students, I should NOT be anticipating, but attacking and then reacting... Hankewaza and/or ukemi happens as a result. And if the resistance occurred, it should be of the passive type -- either I was not being lead effectively, or I was being lead too fast for my comfort.

Resistance is a two-edged sword, that cuts both ways. Resistance can allow you to save yourself from a horrible technique (two meanings, yup), and resistance can cause uke to further the scope of their resulting injury due to the escalation caused in part by nage's reaction to resistance. Both situations should be discouraged, especially for beginners.

Of the two types of resistance (active and passive), I am of the following opinions in regards to basic aikido practice:

1) If a technique is properly executed, active resistance causes more pain and possible injury for uke: Examples: nikyo, sankyo, hiji-gimi, or most any properly executed lock. Why condition your ukemi reactions to encourage self-destruction?

2) Passive resistance is what happens when uke doesn't move fast enough to take proper ukemi, or when nage is not properly executing the technique. As uke, this means you're not moving because you are not being lead, or you are slowing down the execution of technique to CYA and reach the mat with minimal damage. Either reason is fine, as long as you recognize that it is educational -- for you and/or nage. Try to harmonize so that there is no passive resistance in the blend of the technique... discourage the opportunity for the resistance to occur.

3) In regards to dynamic aikido technique, active resistance on the part of uke is counter-productive (yes, I see the pun): Aikido practice usually occurs at less-than-realistic-attack-speed... when things are moving slowly, it is possible for uke to (a) anticipate, (b) recognize what the technique is trying to accomplish and (c) have time to apply some form of counter-intent. As the speed picks up, the opportunity for uke to resist shortens drastically, even with anticipation and recognition acting in concert -- to actively resist a technique requires that you know what the technique is trying to accomplish. And it becomes even more dangerous for uke at full-out, balls-to-the-wall attack speeds, and is even less likely to occur without resulting in injury.

Ride the edge, yes, but not to the point of self-destruction. Henkawaza is not resistance, per se, in my book -- it is finding a weakness in a technique and exploiting it -- riding the edge of the sword until you can grasp the handle and use the sword. Beginners are still trying to see the point, let alone the edge, and they haven't yet realized they can grasp the handle; they shouldn't be encouraged to do so except under very controlled conditions.


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

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Old 06-02-2006, 04:45 PM   #18
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Punishing Uke, IMHO

Quote:
Peter Zalinski wrote:
1) If a technique is properly executed, active resistance causes more pain and possible injury for uke: Examples: nikyo, sankyo, hiji-gimi, or most any properly executed lock. Why condition your ukemi reactions to encourage self-destruction?
In order to learn to do the correct kaeshiwaza, Peter. To learn proper kaeshiwaza, you need to let Nage take you to your absolute limits before you begin the kaeshiwaza. To do that, you have to attain greater flexibility and greater resistance strength. Remember Tohei Akira Sensei telling us to not begin resisting the Kokyu-dosa until Nage just about had us tipped over, then to resist as hard as we could? Waiting till that point increased our flexibility and strength at the limits of our abilities. Resisting earlier was just a waste of energy for Uke because you weren't really developing yourself. Likewise, you should be resisting the Nikkyo just at the point where Nage has you in a good Nikkyo and is starting to drive you to the ground, then start the resistance against the pain, so that you can do the Sutemi-waza or the Kokyu-nage Kaeshiwaza.

Rock
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Old 06-03-2006, 03:22 AM   #19
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

@Peter Zalinski:
thanks Peter,
to me it sems that you said mostly the same, I wanted to point out. Probably you found better and more precise explanation - and of course higher competence.

Cheers

Dirk
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Old 06-03-2006, 05:18 AM   #20
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

In a lot of the above posts I get the impression of resistance by using force (muscular etc.) that the Nage/Tori can detect easily.

What about resistance through relaxation and adaptation to everything the Nage does? In this way while resisting, your resistance does not give anything away to be used by Nage, making for a very interesting experience imo.

Hi Rock, I hope all is well in Barbados.

LC

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Old 06-03-2006, 05:33 AM   #21
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Punishing Uke

Hi Larry,

That's what I call a situation that does not require the use of Aikido.

Or one in which you compete about who has the best joining and leading. :-0 Kind of like kaeshiwaza, eh? (my Canadianism showing here.)

Going well. Hope to be by there soon to play with you and Kendo Eddy.

Rock
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Old 06-03-2006, 06:59 PM   #22
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Punishing Uke

HI Rock,

Yeah kaeshiwaza is a good example of what I was talking about. When we do empty handed freeplay where 2 individuals (there is not really an Uke and Tori in this case) are equally attempting techniques, it aids in not utilising too much muscular force to resist a technique but instead move with it, constantly adapting and using the changes in motion to assist your own technique.

I spoke to Kendo Eddy a few days ago and he mentioned speaking with you. He's eager to get in some Kendo when you're here next. Of course my dojo door is always open to you. Maybe we can get Eddy to do some Aiki and I can try out some Kendo.

I'm happy things are going well with you and your training.

LC

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Old 06-03-2006, 08:30 PM   #23
Niko_Brekalo
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Re: Punishing Uke

a good uke is the best for beginners. an experienced uke will know when the technique feels right, if the nage doesnt understand the technique, the uke will keep the nage with him during the technique. eventually the nage will figure things out by learning to keep with the flow, maybe not fully at first, but uke will let nage know what feels right and what does not.
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Old 06-07-2006, 11:24 AM   #24
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Punishing Uke

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Yeah kaeshiwaza is a good example of what I was talking about. When we do empty handed freeplay where 2 individuals (there is not really an Uke and Tori in this case) are equally attempting techniques, it aids in not utilising too much muscular force to resist a technique but instead move with it, constantly adapting and using the changes in motion to assist your own technique.
And when it works, boy, you punish uke!
Well, you have the fundamentals of Kendo there too. And, I suppose, of all combat. Instant adaptation of planned execution.

Rock
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Old 06-07-2006, 03:43 PM   #25
David Orange
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Re: Punishing Uke, IMHO

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote:
In order to learn to do the correct kaeshiwaza, Peter. To learn proper kaeshiwaza, you need to let Nage take you to your absolute limits before you begin the kaeshiwaza. To do that, you have to attain greater flexibility and greater resistance strength. Remember Tohei Akira Sensei telling us to not begin resisting the Kokyu-dosa until Nage just about had us tipped over, then to resist as hard as we could? Waiting till that point increased our flexibility and strength at the limits of our abilities. Resisting earlier was just a waste of energy for Uke because you weren't really developing yourself. Likewise, you should be resisting the Nikkyo just at the point where Nage has you in a good Nikkyo and is starting to drive you to the ground, then start the resistance against the pain, so that you can do the Sutemi-waza or the Kokyu-nage Kaeshiwaza.
Rocky,

I'm drawing a blank on the sutemi escape from nikkyo. That is what you mean, isn't it? I can't picture how it would work. Does Tohei Akira sensei teach sutemi waza?

Thanks,

David

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