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Old 10-06-2008, 09:57 PM   #26
Buck
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Ok, so did O'Sensei teach another budo "before Aikido and before meeting with Takeda [?]" I really don't care about the thing about the Christianity and Jesus and that whole chicken came before the egg laying thing and that snowball. Snowball? I care about kittens, and ya know what, that doesn't have anything to do with anything other then my little fluffy kitten Snowball who fell asleep on by lap and purring away peacefully. Yea, I know, I would never make it in the MMA. I am lover not a fight. That is a cat person who loves (like cares for) cats, but not their litterboxes.

So does anyone have an answer? Or does it show our obsession with lineage, and the need to know where things came from. Inquiring minds want to know, a hazzard of modern life.

Last edited by Buck : 10-06-2008 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:06 PM   #27
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Andrew Smallacombe wrote: View Post
I know this is post-Aikido, but I recall reading somewhere that O-Sensei awarded Hikitsuchi Sensei a certificate in a bo-based system that he had created. I'm curious as to the influences behind it - maybe it was not even Daito Ryu based?
Here is an excerpt of an article published by Aikido Journal in which Ellis Amdur describes the Bo practice done in Shingu by Hikitsuchi Sensei according to Clint George, who practiced extensively in Shingu.

I would like to add that this is also the understanding that I was given by Clint George when he first returned from Japan.

I would also like to comment that my teacher, Motomichi Anno Sensei, stresses the influence of Nature on the bo form that he transmits and that he also stresses this is what O-Sensei communicated to him as the 'Nature of Aikido'. Anno Sensei says it is 'based on Nature'.

From Aikido Journal-This scroll was entitled, “Bojutsu Masakatsu Agatsu” — True Victor is Self-Victory. Clint George, one of Hikitsuchi’s closest students, told me that the “Shingu bojutsu” had five levels:

Ikkyo — a fundamental solo form

Nikyo — a solo form that explored circular movement

Sankyo — a solo form that explored three dimensional, spherical movement

Yonkyo —Jiyuwaza — free, un-choreographed movement

Gokyo — Misogi no bo — a form that included techniques from the previous sets as well as those which had ritual, spiritual significance

According to Clint, Hikitsuchi disliked two person forms that were “long and dragged out.” Rather than kumibo kata, he would show waza applications derived from the forms. Hikitsuchi was much more concerned with what he called, kigata — “energy form” — the ability to spontaneously change as needed within one’s movements. Further, he emphasized inryoku — a “magnetic” power of attraction. This is a form of kiaijutsu, in which one sets up the opponent so that they conform to one’s will — the opponent is drawn into certain actions and positions that put him, inadvertently, at a disadvantage. Hikitsuchi’s bojutsu also focused on precision and clarity of technique, and he demanded an awareness of one’s openings, unified body movement and a feeling that one was in a real duel.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:15 PM   #28
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Oh, I'd talk more but I have to go. Every week I make the rounds of all the local churches to remind them that Christianity is just Judaism lite. They keep forgetting.
EA
LOL...Nice quote during the High Holy Days Ellis...made me choke on my latte. I have a similar saying I use with my friends, "Inside every Christian is a Jew trying to get out!" one of my favorite quotes stolen from Full Metal Jacket and modified for my own diabolic means.

Stay Cut,

The Hebrew Hammer
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:13 AM   #29
Flintstone
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
According to Clint, Hikitsuchi disliked two person forms that were "long and dragged out."
You surely don't mean Masakatsu Bojutsu was a creation of Hikitsuchi Sensei, do yu?
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Old 10-07-2008, 03:41 AM   #30
Mark Uttech
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Do bee's be?
Do bears bear? :-)
Onegaishimasu. Yes! Not only do bees be, and bears bear, but bees also bear and bears also be!

In gassho,

Mark

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Old 10-07-2008, 06:32 AM   #31
rob_liberti
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

I have a bit of trouble believing that Jesus would be all that thrilled with what has become of Christianity. I have pretty much the same trouble believing that O-sensei would be all that thrilled with what has become of aikido. I would further suppose that there are many scientists today and many famous scientists of the past who would not be all that thrilled with what has become of science today either.

But I do think the "followers" of the all of these have religious beliefs with an un-shakeable "faith" despite any and all evidence. There also seems to be a direct correlation with the amount of money some of the "questionable" yet "unquestionable" beliefs bring in with the amount of un-shakable-ness in those core beliefs.

Follow the Shoe! No follow the gourd!

Rob
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:31 AM   #32
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I have a bit of trouble believing that Jesus would be all that thrilled with what has become of Christianity. I have pretty much the same trouble believing that O-sensei would be all that thrilled with what has become of aikido.
I don't presume to know any of the masters' minds, but I don't think it would be a big leap to imagine that Shioda, Tohei, Saito, his own son Kisshomaru, or any of the others, might have said the same thing (at least about aikido)---possibly even about each other. Wasn't there at least one occasion where O Sensei suggested that his own students didn't get what he was teaching?

I suspect people may be wondering if we've drifted off topic; I think we're still there for this reason: I'd ask if O Sensei was teaching a martial art at all, or if O Sensei was using martial arts---something in his own experience---to teach, to point to, or to express something else.

If it's true, then suspecting that O Sensei would not be happy with what has become of aikido gives life to the word "aikido" and puts our focus there instead. Perhaps O Sensei would not be happy with that.

Here's a question: If O Sensei found himself in your aikido school (for an arbitrary school, not specifically Rob's), do you think he would eventually rediscover / find his own aikido?

[Of course, as a proficient martial artist, O Sensei might have been irked if you didn't develop some martial technique along the way, just as a chaddo master might be irked if your tea tasted terrible, or just as a kyudo master might be irked if your arrows never found the target ]

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Old 10-07-2008, 10:15 AM   #33
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Last week I went into the gymnasium to start setting up the mats for class. It was a bit stuffy so I opened the side doors to enhance airflow. Upon opening the door that opens to a small park I was greeted by six or seven children playing in the park. Oh, they said, do you teach karate? I smiled and said, "something like that, would you like to join?" Most of them were already barefoot so there was no need for them to remove their shoes. That night, there were eight children and a dog on the mat. I think Osensei would be pleased, and I'm pretty sure Jesus was pleased as well.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:24 AM   #34
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
That night, there were eight children and a dog on the mat. I think Osensei would be pleased, and I'm pretty sure Jesus was pleased as well.
Hallelujah! - spoken in Japanese, of course

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Old 10-07-2008, 02:18 PM   #35
Andrew S
 
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
From Aikido Journal-This scroll was entitled, "Bojutsu Masakatsu Agatsu" — True Victor is Self-Victory. Clint George, one of Hikitsuchi's closest students, told me that the "Shingu bojutsu" had five levels:

Ikkyo — a fundamental solo form

Nikyo — a solo form that explored circular movement

Sankyo — a solo form that explored three dimensional, spherical movement

Yonkyo —Jiyuwaza — free, un-choreographed movement

Gokyo — Misogi no bo — a form that included techniques from the previous sets as well as those which had ritual, spiritual significance
Thanks, Jennifer.

So, if I understand this correctly, O-Sensei taught jo to simulate spear and bayonet techniques, and then awarded a bo system to a single student. Where did this system come from?

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


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Old 10-07-2008, 02:45 PM   #36
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

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Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Hallelujah! - spoken in Japanese, of course
Areruyaa! ?
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Old 10-07-2008, 02:47 PM   #37
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Andrew Smallacombe wrote: View Post
So, if I understand this correctly, O-Sensei taught jo to simulate spear and bayonet techniques, and then awarded a bo system to a single student. Where did this system come from?
Take care, questions like this would (re)start a (not so) new Holly War in Spanish forums...
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:44 PM   #38
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
You surely don't mean Masakatsu Bojutsu was a creation of Hikitsuchi Sensei, do yu?
I surely mean that you are referencing a quote from Ellis Amdur's article in Aikido Journal (sorry if that fact wasn't obvious in the way the post was structured), in which he is discussing the Bojutsu form introduced to Hikitsuchi Sensei by O-Sensei as practiced in Shingu by my teachers and then myself and hopefully by my students if I'm doing my job well.

Hope that clear things up for you.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 10-07-2008 at 04:49 PM.

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Old 10-07-2008, 05:07 PM   #39
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Andrew Smallacombe wrote: View Post
Thanks, Jennifer.

So, if I understand this correctly, O-Sensei taught jo to simulate spear and bayonet techniques, and then awarded a bo system to a single student. Where did this system come from?
Well, I would only say what my teachers have said and what I have personally experienced, which is that O-Sensei taught the Bo form and the Jo form ( again, I am referencing the Shingu lineage) as very flexible methods of weapons training which allowed the practitioner the most multi-dimensional weapons corollary to technique.

My teachers and I also express what we were left with through O-Sensei's Bo, calligraphy, and verbal teachings, which is this: it was inspired of Nature. Literally, I have been taught, the system O-Sensei transmitted at the time came from Nature. Our job as deshi has been to open our minds and to learn what this means.

If the question you are asking is 'what was the weapons lineage?', I will again quote Aikido Journal: " Hikitsuchi engaged in intensive training with Ueshiba, centered on the sword. As I described elsewhere, Ueshiba’s aiki principles are contained in three forms he adapted from Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. Hikitsuchi trained extensively in jukenjutsu as a young man, and was very skilled in both iaido and kendo. "

These are the teachings I have received. I sincerely hope they can be of some help in your understanding and practice.

Best,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 10-07-2008 at 05:16 PM.

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Old 10-07-2008, 05:38 PM   #40
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

I apologize for the multi-posting......here is a link to the Aikido Journal article I have been referencing. It is wonderful and informative. I hope you all enjoy it, too.

https://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1996

jen

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Old 10-08-2008, 02:07 PM   #41
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Take care, questions like this would (re)start a (not so) new Holy War in Spanish forums...
I wasn't expecting some kind of Spanish Inquisition...
Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
If the question you are asking is 'what was the weapons lineage?', I will again quote Aikido Journal: " Hikitsuchi engaged in intensive training with Ueshiba, centered on the sword. As I described elsewhere, Ueshiba's aiki principles are contained in three forms he adapted from Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. Hikitsuchi trained extensively in jukenjutsu as a young man, and was very skilled in both iaido and kendo. "
Thanks again, Jen.

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


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Old 10-08-2008, 02:41 PM   #42
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Andrew,
My pleasure.
Jen

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