Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-02-2008, 09:30 AM   #1
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,415
Offline
Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art before Aikido and before meeting with Takeda?

David

Go ahead, tread on me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 06:14 PM   #2
Stefan Stenudd
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 539
Sweden
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Not to my knowledge - but there are many on this forum who know much more than I do.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: https://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 07:11 PM   #3
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Unless you count Daito-ryu aikijutsu which he was licensed to do I believe. He held other licenses from what I have read but don't recall seeing anything stating he taught other arts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:19 AM   #4
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

I think one would need to decide for themselves the definition of martial art and then decide whether instructing in military service counted or whether one felt it is teaching Budo practice that is at the heart of the question.
Then the question could be answered in that particular context.

I might phrase my response this way: O-Sensei did teach warring arts in the military before he taught budo.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 09:34 PM   #5
Chicko Xerri
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International Fudoshin dojo Australia.
Location: Noosa Heads, Australia
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 65
Australia
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 10:19 PM   #6
Enrique Antonio Reyes
Dojo: Yuugou Aikido Kaisho
Location: Manila
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 132
Philippines
Offline
Lightbulb Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .
Never really thought of it that way but I believe (in a way) I share the same argument. Probably why we should never compare (nor contrast) Aikido with the other martial art forms.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 11:32 PM   #7
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

What are the references stating O'Sensei never considered aikido a martial art?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 11:44 PM   #8
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

The Yagyu scroll he possessed was discredited by Yagyu sensei.
When he decided to become a teacher and hung a shingle Ueshiba's first and only art he taught was Daito ryu aikijujutsu. Which he handed out scrolls in until the late 30's he gradually changed the waza as he aged but never stopped doing Daito ryu aiki. Which is the power in aikido.
The name aikido was not invented by him. At a public exhibition of martial arts it was determined politely that Ueshiba;s stuff didn't fit, didn't look like Japanese Koryu jujutsu. So a committee created a category of arts called the way of aiki (aiki-do)
Since Ueshiba had already been hand copying the Daito ryu scrolls and changing the name of the art from Daito ryu Aiki jujutsu, to Aikibudo, to his family art names of Aoi ryu, he opted for this new category title as a name for the art.
1. It is widely recognized that Tohei and Kissomaru are credited for the syllabus now known as Aikido.
2. Ueshiba taught the military and assassins and there is ample evidence that he considered his art-martial. In every way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 01:34 AM   #9
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 934
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Dan -
1. Incorrect. The Yagyu scroll was Yagyu Shingan-ryu. There was nothing for Yagyu to discredit. Different ryu. Also, I've never heard before that Yagyu sensei reviewed the certificate. Muto Masao, headmaster of YSR certified it as genuine Yagyu Shingan-ryu. Also, Ueshiba DID learn some Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and this was recognized by Otsubo shihan of Shinkage-ryu. See my (ahem) b o o k.

EA

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 06:55 AM   #10
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Dan -
1. Incorrect. The Yagyu scroll was Yagyu Shingan-ryu. There was nothing for Yagyu to discredit. Different ryu. Also, I've never heard before that Yagyu sensei reviewed the certificate. Muto Masao, headmaster of YSR certified it as genuine Yagyu Shingan-ryu. Also, Ueshiba DID learn some Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and this was recognized by Otsubo shihan of Shinkage-ryu. See my (ahem) b o o k.

EA
Hi Ellis
I meant Yagyu Shingan when I wrote Yagyu-hey it was late here....
That said, I'll have to look it up but i am quite sure it was questioned. I think Yagyu Sensei said something like, it wasn't signed, or it looked fishy.

Regardless none of that was the point.The point was what he decided to do when he first taught.
Two things remain that were witnessed
When he met Takeda, he quite literally ended up crying in the corner.
Seven years later...when he decided to teach for the first time, he showed up in formal attire one morning at ayabe and announced to his nephew. "I am finally going to be a jujutsu teacher." From then on he taught Daito ryu.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 08:55 AM   #11
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 934
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Hi Dan - I think you need a macro of some kind, or better yet, one of those programs that the National Security Agency has. In their case, a button has already been pushed and when certain code words and phrases appear in an email or website anywhere in the world, the computers kick in and scoop up the email for examination. In your case, it would be simpler. Anytime anyone posts anything that asserts or questions that Ueshiba studed something else, or developed something else or that aikido was better than Daito-ryu, the program would kick in and would write, "No, no, no - crying in the corner - everything from DR - Shioda/Horikawa - real aiki - aikido projecting out." Heck, you could refer them to John Driscoll's essay which does a one-to-one correspondence with the various waza. 73% correlation post-war? Bing -one macro, link to John's essay, and we could go out drinking instead.

It's sort of like the judo forum where every time someone posts anything of BJJ, someone has to post that it came from judo - or more often, "all of it is judo newaza." Which isn't true. You change the rules, you change the sport, so why not change the name?
I'm not defending aikido, by the way. It's just that when I corrected the only factually incorrect thing in your post, you popped the macro at me, as if, in noting a factual mistake, I claimed that this meant that Ueshiba - aw heck - blah, blah, blah.

Oh, I'd talk more but I have to go. Every week I make the rounds of all the local churches to remind them that Christianity is just Judaism lite. They keep forgetting.
EA

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 09:17 AM   #12
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 09:31 AM   #13
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,224
Offline
Thumbs up Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?
Onegaishimasu. Very funny Rob, before Jesus there was no Christianity. Before Christianity, there was no Jesus. On the other hand, before Aikido there was no 'O Sensei'. I've thought about it, and yes, this is the right answer.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 10:31 AM   #14
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .
In "TakeMusu Aiki" (written well after the war), Ueshiba refers to Aikido as "budo" with great repetition.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 12:29 PM   #15
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?
Off-course, Jesus was a jew and practiced Judaism.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 12:50 PM   #16
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 934
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Sakyamuni practiced Hinduism. Is Buddhism Hinduism?
Abraham was a pagan. Is Judaism paganism?
Issac Newton practiced alchemy. Is Newtonian physics alchemy? Vasili Oshchepkov practiced judo. Is sambo judo?
Mestre Bimba practiced capoeira angola. Is capoeira regional capoeira angola?
Araki Mininsai learned Takenouchi-ryu. Is Araki-ryu Takenouchi-ryu?
Ono Tadaaki learned Itto-ryu. Is Ono-ha Itto-ryu . . . Itto-ryu?

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 08:09 PM   #17
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Did these people all practice their early study, hang a single teaching their early study, and have someone else change the name of what they were teaching?

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 09:06 PM   #18
Rennis Buchner
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 62
Japan
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I meant Yagyu Shingan when I wrote Yagyu-hey it was late here....
That said, I'll have to look it up but i am quite sure it was questioned. I think Yagyu Sensei said something like, it wasn't signed, or it looked fishy.
It wasn't Yagyu sensei, but the "issue" you are bringing up is that supposedly the item in question was missing a stamp on it (if I recall correctly). There were any number of legitimate reasons that this could have happened and as Ellis said previously,Yagyu Shingan-ryu itself found nothing partciularly "fishy" about the document itself and found no real reason to question it. I think the tone of the comments on the "missing stamp issue" were originally in more of a "Yeah, this is the real deal. Hmm a stamp is missing, that's kind of odd, but yeah this seems real" nature rather than "Oh man, this stamp is missing. There is obviously something fishy going on here!". I believe Ellis and others have discussed the issue elsewhere in more detail and a bit of searching should pull up the info rather quickly.

Rennis Buchner
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2008, 12:09 AM   #19
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 934
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Rob - everyone of them was a profoundly ungrateful wretch, who, apart from their teacher and in the decades afterwards, never had an original thought, a creative impulse, or did anything different from their teacher whatsoever.They will all go down in history as mere copycats, inferior not only in technique, but also in moral stature. Their moral turpitude is so vast that it should, no it must be discussed ad nauseum, and and evidence to the contrary, must be expunged.
One of more ironic things is Tomiki Kenji. He learned judo, yes, but his Shodokan aikido came from - - - Ueshiba. But he changed it. Did competition. Still looks like Ueshiba's aikido. Kisshomaru was mad - why? Because he DIDN'T't change the name.
Well, he too is a being of vast and unimaginable moral depravity, for the opposite reasons, and we should devote endless hours of preoccupation talking about the same points here too.
Gosh, and let's get outraged about it too. Me, I'm mad on behalf of Lucy, the first human, who who never got full and proper credit - because everything we've done since is all based on her
DNA. Oh, and -
Yang learned Chen t'ai chi. Is Yang t'ai chi Chen t'ai chi?
Hao learned Chen t'ai chi. Is Hao t'ai chi Chen t'ai chi?
Wu learned Yang t'ai chi. Is Wu t'ai chi Yang t'ai chi is Chen t'ai chi?
Sheesh.

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 10-05-2008 at 12:11 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2008, 06:21 AM   #20
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

It just seems odd to suggest that every SINGLE example provided MUST be the same EXACT story and circumstances.

While the overall idea of 1 thing growing out of another is common, what I am reading here is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the situation where 1 thing simply got called something else without nearly as much "growing" as other *similar but but exactly the same* situations. That stands out in my mind as "questionable".

[rolling up my sleeves]
Did Quantum Computer Services become AOL?
Did BackRub become Google?
Did Jerry's Guide to the World Wide Web become Yahoo?
Did Computing Tabulating Recording Corporation become IBM?
Did Brad's Drink become Pepsi-Cola?
Did SBC become AT&T?

Were ALL of the name changes significantly more than just "rebranding" - every single one? No different circumstances in the bunch? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. I am fairly certain for instance that some of the things that say SBC had been doing right went very very wrong after they became AT&T and bought themselves that coveted stock ticker? Evolution doesn't have to be 100% for the better. Sometimes (many times) more popular does not result in better quality in some core beliefs.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 10-05-2008 at 06:29 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2008, 08:18 AM   #21
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

I think we are in danger of taking Ellis' examples out of the context of his original critique. I read it not as an assertion that O Sensei reached some threshold of "species differentiation" from Daito Ryu, which in the case of budo likely would be impossible for us to agree upon. I read it as a reaction to Dan's post, and perhaps as suggesting that it would be more useful for the historical details to speak for themselves with respect to the topic at hand. Am I confused? Wouldn't be the first time, nor the last.

DH
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2008, 12:51 PM   #22
mickeygelum
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

... ........
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 12:10 AM   #23
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu. Very funny Rob, before Jesus there was no Christianity. Before Christianity, there was no Jesus. On the other hand, before Aikido there was no 'O Sensei'. I've thought about it, and yes, this is the right answer.
Perhaps
  • Christianity is what one believes Jesus meant; and,
  • Aikido is what one believes O Sensei meant.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 02:29 PM   #24
Andrew S
 
Andrew S's Avatar
Dojo: Kenshinkai Dojos
Location: Tokorozawa
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 102
Japan
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

I know this is post-Aikido, but I recall reading somewhere that O-Sensei awarded Hikitsuchi Sensei a certificate in a bo-based system that he had created. I'm curious as to the influences behind it - maybe it was not even Daito Ryu based?

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


合気道研心会 Aikido Kenshinkai
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 09:50 PM   #25
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Did Quantum Computer Services become AOL?
Did BackRub become Google?
Did Jerry's Guide to the World Wide Web become Yahoo?
Did Computing Tabulating Recording Corporation become IBM?
Did Brad's Drink become Pepsi-Cola?
Did SBC become AT&T?

Rob
Do bee's be?
Do bears bear? :-)

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 01-31-2014 11:35 PM
Self-defense art? Michael Varin General 227 08-21-2012 09:22 AM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
The Point of Aikido George S. Ledyard Columns 50 10-04-2007 05:17 PM
A Martial Art Paul General 3 10-12-2000 05:55 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:26 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate