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Old 09-17-2007, 12:30 PM   #51
bob_stra
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Royce IS 3.0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EU0ARSJLEaU

Vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Lbc8OXDXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lO43g2UVYk
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:39 PM   #52
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
It's a good place to start looking at the very least. Especially the early mma fights. They showed very well the strengths and weaknesses of many styles of fighting. And after all, fighting is a large part of the word martial.
I respectfully disagree Don. How can you draw those kinds of broad based conclusions?

What is you methodology?

Why does everyone think losing or winning a fight has to do soley with technique as opposed to it's use by individual fighters ?

How many of the early contestants were masters aka experianced experts???

I do agree it may be a good place to start and that some of the observations over the years can be put into a hypothesis... which may lead to a premise.... which in turn may promote a theory...

The Martial Arts have been around for over a Thousand years. MMA stye combat existed during the Roman Empire for gosh sakes....

One would have to present more factual and solid based evidence backed with tons of data to support any emperical observation about the Martial Arts and keep in mind the hundreds of generations of practical application, tradition, and experiance.

Sincerely,

William Hazen
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Old 09-17-2007, 12:51 PM   #53
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Hello Salim, Leon
Even if I would not go as far a William, because I believe that some ways of practicing aikido is not really martially orientate, I would still lean his way on this arguments.

I am really puzzled at you post Leon because you are taking the Mickey out of an explanation that is exact embodiment of the argument you present.
You are irritated by statement like "We do not particle aikido with martial efficiency as our main objective, we are interested in the more spiritual side of thing"
Well spotted Miss Marple, yes strangely enough that is not going to be necessarily reliable in the ring, is it. Which is just as well because they are very unlikely to end up there in the first place and second that irritating statement clearly states that going in the ring is not the main objective.

I am 100% in agreement with Dan on the ideas that a "grappling art" alone leaves you upon, regardless if we are talking ring or self defence. (And striking arts alone as well for that matter)

And this where I may disagree with William but I have definitely seen aikido practices (it varies within styles, so it is not really a style question) where atemi were frowned upon as a method. There was a debate about that on this forum a few months ago.

I remember a conversation with Dan and roman on another thread about the quality of atemi (I.e. how often you do train to deliver them with power), and that aspect is to be taken in consideration as well. As well as it is probably worth considering that some of us are trained or are still training in striking arts.
And for us rightly or wrongly, that striking comes under the umbrella of aikido whereas an argument can be made of that striking being a different art but that is really a dog chasing its tail type of debate.

phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:31 PM   #54
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Hello William, Don

I am not sure that you are presenting a different argument.

As William said MMA was present since the classical Greek (and it is probably more a matter of available archaeology that an actual time limits
You will find BJJ strategy all over the weapon and wrestling manual through the ages.

Get position and from that position so something tat will either finish the match or give you a better position.

Well that is exactly what the medieval German call fighting in the VOR (I.E the before)
And you can transpose that to Fiore dei libery, or Italian, Spanish, English rapier guards vs guards. Basically each guard opposed to the other is just gaining the position.
Or to the true times and true places of Georges Silver
The medieval wrestling motto throw him and pin him on the ground (whilst keeping hand free) is what you want to achieve, use Strike and bone breaking when you need to.

So we have it written in Europe since the 15th century. You do need grappling and striking.

The big difference between ancient manual and traditional martial arts, and this is what MMA is really demonstrating. It is not about technique or physical abilities of the individual. Those are just there to support a strategy and tactics.

We can not really say that striking arts are not good, nowadays in MMA good strikers can keep wrestlers at bay until they are in a good position to finish of the fight.
It is that you are missing something in your striking art if you do not have methods/tactics to prevent to be grappled (and enables you to get up and/or to be able to strike from there if that happens)

Phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:49 PM   #55
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09...th_match_poll/



William Hazen
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:50 PM   #56
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
I respectfully disagree Don. How can you draw those kinds of broad based conclusions?

What is you methodology?
It's simple really, Look at the overall broad use of a technique in many mma matches (I've seen every pride, ufc, and kotc match ever recorded). Look at how the technique is used at different levels of skill, finally decide on its effectiveness in the context. It's easy to see the patterns. Scientists don't try to cure cancer by just running simulations, they run their sims (kata) then they test promising cures on varying levels of animals (increasing resistance sparing), then when something is promising, they test it on real people (the deadly street!)

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Why does everyone think losing or winning a fight has to do soley with technique as opposed to it's use by individual fighters ?
Who said that? However, good point. I would expect there is a single person doing the worst combat art in the world who can win fights, that does not justify his art, but if the majority of his students can't fight their way out of a paper bag, then we can see the flaws in his style. AKA, if almost every Don Ryu student losses his mma fight, obiously my Don Ryu is lacking, even if I win my fights.

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
How many of the early contestants were masters aka experianced experts???
Well many would claim to be, such as Ron van Cleef, ichikawa, Ettish (take special note he was a expert high dan rank in his own stile), and others all claimed to be masters, some with a lot of fight experience (jason delucia comes to mind). That's just off the top of my head, but my point being, they claim to be high ranking black belts, masters etc.

Yet the tournament showed their skills to be lacking. Those skills might of been age, technique, strength, etc, but they were still lacking and in most cases (especially Ettish) it was technique that was lacking. They would of known this had they been sparing more often under a MMA ruleset (that they probably didn't even know existed at the time.) Also a number of people who challenged the gracies were also self proclaimed masters, almost all of them were shown the weaknesses in their styles (except the great Kimura, who oddly came from a art with a lot of alive sparing and fought basically mma matches as a job).

So how do you know a master. For me, it's watching how he spars. It doesn't take long, I can see a good judo man by the way he walks and grabs, I can see a good boxer by the way he moves and keeps his hands, I can see a good mma fighter by looking at the way they engage. What is true for a good mma fighter, is true for any one on one engagement. One on One is a large component of many martial arts, so this is a good metric for seeing effectiveness, if it's not effective one on one, that is a problem. Of course not all one on one techniques are good when it is multiples, but eventually we will come up with a different metric for that as well.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I do agree it may be a good place to start and that some of the observations over the years can be put into a hypothesis... which may lead to a premise.... which in turn may promote a theory...
I think this has already happened.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
The Martial Arts have been around for over a Thousand years. MMA stye combat existed during the Roman Empire for gosh sakes....

One would have to present more factual and solid based evidence backed with tons of data to support any emperical observation about the Martial Arts and keep in mind the hundreds of generations of practical application, tradition, and experiance.
Two words, Chinese Telephone. This is the state of martial arts without sparing. If you played the game in school, then you understand. A quick exploration of the idea follows:

Art with sparing
1) Instructor demo's technique
2) Student repeats demo
3) Student learns holes and mistakes though drills with resistance
4) Student incorporates technique into his whole though sparing and learns how it works, how it doesn't, and how to improve his understanding of it.
5) Repeated a million times, eventually student becomes a teacher and shows a technique he has used countless times to submit a person hell bent on stopping him. He uses this experience to help his students understand the holes, faults, traps, etc of the technique. He shows the things he learned to help it work better, and shows how he actually uses this technique against a person trying to stop him.

Arts without sparing.
1) Instructor demo's technique
2) Students repeats demo
3) Instructor visually looks for signs of what he thinks is poor technique. His only cues are things his instructor told him to lookout for, and comparing it to how he perceives he is doing the technique.
4) Student repeats demo with instructors advice a billion times.
5) Student goes on to teach technique to his students, using his perception of what the teacher was trying to make him do as a guide to give advice to his students.

There are flaws in both systems. The first assumes you can put aside your ego and learn from your mistakes. And that you have the fortitude to not give up and keep trying new ideas. There is a danger of a student being locked into static thinking and just doing what he is taught, this will lead to a lack of skill and stop the cycle of evolution required to keep this model running.

The second has a flaw I find much greater. It assumes the instructor is perfect. If the instructor is not perfect, then you will learn imperfect technique. Then if you are not perfect, the technique you pass down is also flawed further. There is also a grave danger of creativity in this setting. Creativity is bad because there is no testing. Only theoretical testing. There is a chance for complacency as well. I may modify my technique as a teacher to make it easier for my old body to do. Unfortunately, this was not the technique my teacher taught me, and has lost some effectiveness. Of course I will never know this. I have no way of testing if it is better or worse. Of course my students will never know and think this is the proper technique, and maybe they will be even lazier when they teach it, further degrading its ability. Nobody knows.

With most arts, this has happened for countless generations. Sure Don Ryu might of worked on the battlefield of ancient japan, but maybe my students, or their students were horrible teachers, now the art is degrading down a path to ineffectiveness, and without some more ancient battlefield wars, there is no way to shore it up to effective. We now are in a matter of pure faith, a religion, not a martial art.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:36 PM   #57
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

A Great Hypothesis Don. Thank You...

Quote:
The second has a flaw I find much greater. It assumes the instructor is perfect. If the instructor is not perfect, then you will learn imperfect technique. Then if you are not perfect, the technique you pass down is also flawed further. There is also a grave danger of creativity in this setting.
However, this statement needs further reflection... You may want to reason this out because this is based on a False Assumption....

This assumes the Instructor "Thinks" he's perfect and does not continue to evolve his own practice and pass this on to his students...

In my case up until the day he passed Shoji Nishio Shihan was looking for ways to improve his Aikido Practice and always pushed his students to improve thiers.... Nishio Shihan always insisted that In order for our Aikido to be considered a Martial Art it must be effective against other Martial Arts.

We have both been around the block... How many Gendai or Koryu Shihan have you run into that have thought they were perfect and needed no further improvement? I have met a few and if you're like me Don you're out the Dojo Door in about five seconds Too much Ego on the mat. LOL

Why even the mindset "My practice is perfect and there is no reason to improve my transmission of it" goes against the very essence of what Asian Martial Arts are all about.

If folks have a problem with some forms of non-sparring practice it is because the pace of improvement is slow compared to a sparring practice but that is relative as well. It can also be hard to measure the results of non sparring practice because the only real measurement is how the individual feels about it. Kata is a whole other ball of wax but let me tell you I have experianced turning hundreds of hours of supervised Kata into effective technique when I needed it to defend myself.

We are all given the same set of tools as O'Sensei (to paraphrase) once said. What kind of practice you develop is entirely up to you, and he warned against relying on your teacher to transmit your practice. How you receive and embody it is up to you too.

Sincerely,

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-17-2007 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:13 PM   #58
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
A Great Hypothesis Don. Thank You...

However, this statement needs further reflection... You may want to reason this out because this is based on a False Assumption....

This assumes the Instructor "Thinks" he's perfect and does not continue to evolve his own practice and pass this on to his students...

In my case up until the day he passed Shoji Nishio Shihan was looking for ways to improve his Aikido Practice and always pushed his students to improve thiers.... Nishio Shihan always insisted that In order for our Aikido to be considered a Martial Art it must be effective against other Martial Arts.

We have both been around the block... How many Gendai or Koryu Shihan have you run into that have thought they were perfect and needed no further improvement? I have met a few and if you're like me Don you're out the Dojo Door in about five seconds Too much Ego on the mat. LOL

Why even the mindset "My practice is perfect and there is no reason to improve my transmission of it" goes against the very essence of what Asian Martial Arts are all about.

If folks have a problem with some forms of non-sparring practice it is because the pace of improvement is slow compared to a sparring practice but that is relative as well. It can also be hard to measure the results of non sparring practice because the only real measurement is how the individual feels about it. Kata is a whole other ball of wax but let me tell you I have experianced turning hundreds of hours of supervised Kata into effective technique when I needed it to defend myself.

We are all given the same set of tools as O'Sensei (to paraphrase) once said. What kind of practice you develop is entirely up to you, and he warned against relying on your teacher to transmit your practice. How you receive and embody it is up to you too.

Sincerely,

William Hazen
I guess perfect was too strong a word. I guess what I ment is the assumption is that what they are teaching is what worked on the battlefields of ancient japan. For this to be true, they would indeed have to have perfect transmission from teacher to student. You and I know this can not be the case, so how do we prevent the degradation without sparing?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:07 PM   #59
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I guess perfect was too strong a word. I guess what I ment is the assumption is that what they are teaching is what worked on the battlefields of ancient japan. For this to be true, they would indeed have to have perfect transmission from teacher to student. You and I know this can not be the case, so how do we prevent the degradation without sparing?
I liked what you spoke of with regard to graduated resistance. This occures in Aikidojo to varying degrees, so i guess the question becomes a matter of to what degree it progresses and up to what point. The only way we can prevent degradation is through diligence and sincerity of training. Sparring has existed in plenty of MA which have degraded over time, so i don't think sparring alone makes the difference, though I do agree it is one way of testing the hypotheses.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:11 PM   #60
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

William, it sounds like what Don's talking about is sort of like taking photocopies of photocopies, or transmitting a signal across a long distance (in both cases you get gradually fuzzier with time).

I.e., if each generation's understanding of what they are aiming for depends primarily on the accuracy of their copy of the previous generation or two before them (and they are unable to test their copy or generate new first-hand knowledge as Don suggests, as an error correction measure), then it's like a lossy system, or a system with distortion. (Each generation gets just slightly different from the previous one, but without some kind of error-detection the difference will on average be random and on average won't just happen to be an improvement). In such a system the degree of accuracy depends highly on the distance from the source. In such a system you can improve the transmission and make the decay (or distortion) slower, but without some kind of sanity checking along the way it's just slower decay.

Makes sense, actually.
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:35 PM   #61
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
William, it sounds like what Don's talking about is sort of like taking photocopies of photocopies, or transmitting a signal across a long distance (in both cases you get gradually fuzzier with time).

I.e., if each generation's understanding of what they are aiming for depends primarily on the accuracy of their copy of the previous generation or two before them (and they are unable to test their copy or generate new first-hand knowledge as Don suggests, as an error correction measure), then it's like a lossy system, or a system with distortion. (Each generation gets just slightly different from the previous one, but without some kind of error-detection the difference will on average be random and on average won't just happen to be an improvement). In such a system the degree of accuracy depends highly on the distance from the source. In such a system you can improve the transmission and make the decay (or distortion) slower, but without some kind of sanity checking along the way it's just slower decay.

Makes sense, actually.
Sort Of.... Then I thought about it for about 15 seconds and came up with a whole host of contradictions like for example Shaolin Gung Fu and then the copy analogy does not work either as all the Martial Arts I know of are a reflection of thier teacher and every teacher is different.

You can't escape the 80/20 rule however for every ten "Rex Kwan Do's" (Bonus Points if you know where this name comes from) there are a few who strive to be the best they can and transmit what they have learned....

Your choice... You can be Kip Dynamite or the next Bruce Lee or like most mortals.... train hard to avoid the former always striving to be the latter.



William Hazen

Napoleon Dynamite: Stay home and eat all the freakin' chips, Kip.
Kip: Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
Napoleon Dynamite: Since when, Kip? You have the worst reflexes of all time.
Kip: Try and hit me, Napoleon.
Napoleon Dynamite: What?
Kip: I said come down here and see what happens if you try and hit me.

Rex: At Rex Kwan Do, we use the buddy system. No more flying solo. You need somebody watching your back at all times. Second off, you're gonna learn to discipline your image. You think I got where I am today because I dressed like Peter Pan over here?
[points to Kip]
Rex: Take a look at what I'm wearing, people. You think anybody wants a roundhouse kick to the face while I'm wearing these bad boys? Forget about it. Last off, my students will learn about self respect. You think anybody thinks I'm a failure because I go home to Starla at night? Forget about it!

Last edited by Aikibu : 09-17-2007 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:40 PM   #62
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

The reason why Ueshiba could defeat other maritial arts was due to his aiki power. Who has that kind of aiki power that can deal with the great fighters of today.

stan
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:14 PM   #63
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
....

This assumes the Instructor "Thinks" he's perfect and does not continue to evolve his own practice and pass this on to his students...
In some ways this is even worse. In a non sparring art I've seen several instructers look to "evolve" the practice. Trouble is without resistant sparring, the evolution is based on theory. So it both takes you further away from the source (which let's assume was once effective) while at the same time not having the redeeming feature of being an improvement based on combat experience. So it becomes a lottery whether such "improvements" are actually martial improvements.

[Rex] Bow to your sensei! [/Rex]

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Old 09-17-2007, 08:28 PM   #64
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

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Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
In some ways this is even worse. In a non sparring art I've seen several instructers look to "evolve" the practice. Trouble is without resistant sparring, the evolution is based on theory. So it both takes you further away from the source (which let's assume was once effective) while at the same time not having the redeeming feature of being an improvement based on combat experience. So it becomes a lottery whether such "improvements" are actually martial improvements.

[Rex] Bow to your sensei! [/Rex]
This is the flip side of both coins sparring/non-sparring and I agree up to a point...The evolution of any art does not happen without without tradition and testing...

You can't discount either...

William Hazen

I've prevailed using Aikido in a few fights...Though I would not call it "Combat"
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:16 PM   #65
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I respectfully disagree Don. How can you draw those kinds of broad based conclusions?

What is you methodology?

Why does everyone think losing or winning a fight has to do soley with technique as opposed to it's use by individual fighters ?

How many of the early contestants were masters aka experianced experts???

I do agree it may be a good place to start and that some of the observations over the years can be put into a hypothesis... which may lead to a premise.... which in turn may promote a theory...

The Martial Arts have been around for over a Thousand years. MMA stye combat existed during the Roman Empire for gosh sakes....

One would have to present more factual and solid based evidence backed with tons of data to support any emperical observation about the Martial Arts and keep in mind the hundreds of generations of practical application, tradition, and experiance.

Sincerely,

William Hazen
You totally missed what Don was indicating. It's about effectiveness, not winning or losing. The MMA methodology has already proven the inherit fallacies of many martial arts. It's about using what works, learning it well and testing it in a fight. It's has been tried and tested over and over and over again. Get in the ring man, let's see what you've got.
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:38 AM   #66
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
You totally missed what Don was indicating. It's about effectiveness, not winning or losing. The MMA methodology has already proven the inherit fallacies of many martial arts. It's about using what works, learning it well and testing it in a fight. It's has been tried and tested over and over and over again. Get in the ring man, let's see what you've got.
Come on Salim,
Despite that I agree with you about MMA methodology, you can not say it not about winning or loosing, of course it is about winning or losing.
Effectiveness provides the difference between loosing and winning. That exactly what sports are all about and so is self defence for that matter. Though, you could even say that self defence is about strictly wining.

William's point is that it is usually not the technique that makes the difference it is the man.
I agree with the techniques part, but I would say that it is the strategy and tactic of the man more than his physical abilities.

Now we can turn it every way we want;
Sparing is like competition, it develops tactic and strategy that are suited to the environment (i.e. where and how it is done).
And sparing is based on resistance training so it does give a very good understanding of technique application and creating the conditions in which they can be used.

I am recreating a 15th century fighting system, weapons and an open hand, so I bloody well know that sparing is an invaluable tool.
But what gals me the most is that people that advocate of sparing keep going on and on how sparing prepares you for self defence when they seemingly (according to what I understand from the post) do not understand the influence of the environment.

Just try it, spar with someone (with our without weapon), let every one group around you as if they were watching a fight outside and just add the possibility for another player to turn up on to help you opponent at the time he chooses , should he choose to.
That will radically change what "works" and do "not works".

That being said and to be fair, it galls me as much when people says that whatever they do is effective is there is no form of resistance training and methods to gain advantageous positions.

To train and to be trained
You do need
Form work
controlled sparing (call it drill or resistance from work, it deos not matter).
Sparing (in some from or another but that represent what you are training for)
I know some aikido club that do just that and some that absolutly do not.

Phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 09-18-2007 at 06:41 AM.

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Old 09-18-2007, 07:00 AM   #67
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Aikido is in a lucky position currently, it is still relatively close to it's source. But lets look 5 generations from now after all the people who knew people who knew Ueshiba, or even Ueshiba's students are long dead. If nobody is sparing, how do they even know what they are doing is even close to what he did?

Sure they can do some resistance drills, and it helps keep people a little honest. Its in my experience though that what I refer to as resistance drills is usually looked as sparing by most aikidoka. What I see most aikidoka refer to as resistance drills are just the same kata only grabbing stronger or trying to use muscle to prevent them from moving your arm,etc. When I say resistance drill, I'm talking from the prospective of the mount escape drill. I put you in mount, you work your best to escape, I resist you and counter you at varing levels of resistance. We go until you escape, or I submit you, then we reset and do it again. While some aikido schools do this, it seems to me they are a minority.

In fact I've posted the kind of drills I'm talking about once before.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=60
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=62

These can go a long way in keeping sure that the techniques you do are in the spirit of the techniques you were taught.

And yes it is true that sparing only can not keep your art pure. It requires instructors with good character. Anyone can water down sparing with useless rules, a few deadly myths, and light to no contact, then turn their art into a money grubing empire. But arts with real sparing, judo, bjj, boxing, MT, Kokoshin karate(spelling?) and it's like have all been able to keep their effectiveness without doubt. Further more, because of MMA, arts like bjj have been able to flaws in their art and many work to fix them. This means there will be evolution in the art, it will grow beyond and has already grown beyond the gracies. For example, my club has noticed that in our matches in mma and bjj competition that our lack of good throws has cost us many a match, and relying on single and double legs is losing some effectiveness now that people are learning how to work with those takedowns. A lot of us are seeking out judo to fill this hole, learning how to use judo in the context of bjj and mma. This is nothing new to fighting, but future generations of bjj students will be taught by people who are doing this and other things. So their bjj will not be lacking and they won't need to go cross train in judo. This fact is even further reflected in MMA. MMA in the past was going to a club to learn bjj, then MT or boxing, or some other mix of arts. And this is still done, but it is slowly becoming history. It is now possible to go to a gym that trains MMA. It's not put on a gi learn some bjj for an hour, then go put on some gloves and learn some boxing and then maybe if you are lucky do some mma sparing. It's all MMA, all focused only on MMA, and no longer is it a mix of arts, but a single unit designed to be effective in MMA. This is good evolution, though testing.

Phil, Yes, MMA is about winning and losing, it is a sport. But sparing and testing is not about winning or losing. When I go to a competition, I'm trying to win. I play different, I'm using everything I've got with no regard for my partner beyond the rules. I trust that my ref will keep him safe as long as I obey the rules. If I armbar him and he chooses not to tap, I will choose to continue my armbar to it's logical end.

But sparing is different in MMA, bjj, judo, etc. It is most defiantly not about winning. It is about exploration of technique and learning about yourself and how you respond to pressure. The focus of the session depends on the quality of partners, our own goals, and how we structure the session. I'm not caring about winning in this situation. If I get an armbar and my partner will not tap, I do not hurt him, rather I use this as a change to work on a transition and move on to something else. If it was about winning, I'd break his arm.

I am not saying people need to compete. That is silly. While I think competition is a good thing, and can be very healthy when done in the right context, I know it is not for everyone. I do think however sparing is a requirement for effective martial arts. You need the whole gambit of training.

Static drills
Drills with motion
Drills with motion and timing
Drills with motion timing and resistance
Positional sparing
Sparing

And you need to do some of this now and then with people who are not from the art you train. There is group think in martial arts, even the awesomeness that is bjj has group think. So you need sparing with guys who don't think like you. To make sure you are doing good technique, and not just good technique against guys trained to act like you do.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-18-2007, 07:44 AM   #68
Mattias Bengtsson
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

The ring isn't a "real fight"...
To fight for the ring isn't "real training"

The supreme martial art to win over all other martial arts is this:


If you fight for the ring, then sure, train for fighting in the ring, but dont ever confuse it with the ability to properly defend yourself out in the street.

Its true that by fighting in the ring, you gain some pretty useful abilities that could come in handy in real life situations. Like learning on how to predict a opponents body movement and take a punch amongst several.

But for every advantage you gain, there comes drawbacks. In real life situations you wont have the luxury of being able to study tapes of previous fights by your opponent to learn how to predict his tactics.

In the ring, your opponent wont have friends to come to his aid. In the ring, your opponent wont suddenly slip on some knuckle dusters, pull a blade or swing a bottle to your head.

Tons of things can happen, and all of a sudden all fighting in the ring has done is given you a false sense of security.

Morihei Ueshiba himself didn't approve of competing in Aikido.

He didn't create Aikido to teach us how to "beat people up"
He didn't even create Aikido to teach us self defence-
He created Aikido to promote peace by teaching methods on how to enforce it.
But not force peace by "breaking someone's arm so they calm down"
or even "I WILL break your arm if you don't calm down" but "I CAN break your arm if you don't calm down"

In closing, if anyone wants to learn to fight in the ring.. go train Boxing, Judo, MMA, Shodokan or BJJ or whatever. DON'T go train (regular) Aikido and expect it to adapt into a Sports variant just because you want to "try its effectiveness".

That's my view of Aikido anyway, it may be in conflict with yours, but its how I perceive it and the reasons why I train it.

And I train Iwama style Aikido and it's not known as "Lumberjack Aikido" for nothing.. we can get pretty rough at it sometimes. But we start carefully in the beginners level and then gradually increase resisting and countering techniques.
"if it don't hurt, it's not working" as we say.

Uke Iacta Est
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:23 AM   #69
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Mattias Bengtsson wrote: View Post
The ring isn't a "real fight"...
To fight for the ring isn't "real training"

The supreme martial art to win over all other martial arts is this:


If you fight for the ring, then sure, train for fighting in the ring, but dont ever confuse it with the ability to properly defend yourself out in the street.

Its true that by fighting in the ring, you gain some pretty useful abilities that could come in handy in real life situations. Like learning on how to predict a opponents body movement and take a punch amongst several.

But for every advantage you gain, there comes drawbacks. In real life situations you wont have the luxury of being able to study tapes of previous fights by your opponent to learn how to predict his tactics.

In the ring, your opponent wont have friends to come to his aid. In the ring, your opponent wont suddenly slip on some knuckle dusters, pull a blade or swing a bottle to your head.

Tons of things can happen, and all of a sudden all fighting in the ring has done is given you a false sense of security.

Morihei Ueshiba himself didn't approve of competing in Aikido.

He didn't create Aikido to teach us how to "beat people up"
He didn't even create Aikido to teach us self defence-
He created Aikido to promote peace by teaching methods on how to enforce it.
But not force peace by "breaking someone's arm so they calm down"
or even "I WILL break your arm if you don't calm down" but "I CAN break your arm if you don't calm down"

In closing, if anyone wants to learn to fight in the ring.. go train Boxing, Judo, MMA, Shodokan or BJJ or whatever. DON'T go train (regular) Aikido and expect it to adapt into a Sports variant just because you want to "try its effectiveness".

That's my view of Aikido anyway, it may be in conflict with yours, but its how I perceive it and the reasons why I train it.

And I train Iwama style Aikido and it's not known as "Lumberjack Aikido" for nothing.. we can get pretty rough at it sometimes. But we start carefully in the beginners level and then gradually increase resisting and countering techniques.
"if it don't hurt, it's not working" as we say.
I'll say it one more time, then never again. Sparing is not competing. It never was, it never will be. Sparing is not ring fighting. It never was, it never will be. Sparing can incorporate all the things you have talked about. You can bring in weapons in sparing, you can bring in multiples in sparing, you can do 95% of everything you can do in the street in sparing. The parts you can't do are of little consequence to good technique.

Most excuses listed for not sparing a really not valid.
1) Too dangerous - I do it almost every day without injury
2) Age - I know 50 year old guys who spar, sure it's not at the same crazy levels young guys spar, but sparing can be at different levels just like everything else.
3) Uesihba doesn't want competition - Sparing is not competition. There are no winners or losers in sparing. Only good and bad techniques.
4) Rules prevent realism - If you can punch someone in the face, it is safe to assume you might be able to eye gouge them. You never actually eye gouge someone when you are not sparing, so why does it matter you can't eye gouge while you are sparing. Weapons, multiple attackers, objects and uneven fields of play can all be added to sparing. I had a guy once try to choke me with his handwraps, it was funny and startling at the same time. A very hidden weapon. I of course choked him out with his handwraps.
5) But we are a weapon art - So spar with weapons, plenty of other arts do. Kendo guys even have a good set of armor to allow you to hit each other with sticks.
6) My art is not a sport - No one has said it has to be, sparing is not competition, there are no winners or losers. You simple use it as a tool to learn about what works and what needs work on your technique. It will give you insight into yourself and your character. All very budo to me.
7) My art is about killing people, not about fighting - Well, that is all fine and dandy, but usually sparing reveals those deadly techniques are not as easy to land as you think, and usually not as deadly. See nerve strikes as an example.

The list goes on and on. The only legitimate reason for not sparing is this

"I just don't want to."

That is fine, but you need to understand what probably is missing from your training. The pitfalls of not sparing and the issues it can create. I won't go back into that, it is covered well in the posts above. Suffice to say I feel the dangers of not sparing outweigh the dangers of sparing.

It's great if you want to do some kind of exercise that makes you feel spiritual and good inside. I would never want to take that away from anyone. But there are people out there who will one day be instructors (or are instructors now) preaching that they know how to teach someone to defend against an attack. Yet they have never, their instructor has never, their instructor has never, and their instructor has never been in a fight. Not even a fake fight like a sparing match. How can anyone even think that they can teach you to cope with the stress and adapt to the situation of a real fight when they haven't even been in the stress of a fake one.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:40 AM   #70
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Don,
thanks a lot for your usual structured and reasonable input on this subject. Its thought provoking in a very productive way.

Nick
(long time lurker)
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:45 AM   #71
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Though, you could even say that self defence is about strictly wining.
Hmm, more likely self defense is about surviving.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:53 AM   #72
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Don, I actually agree with most if not all your points..

In our dojo we sometimes before or after class we do a bit of "practical applications", basically, just fooling around while waiting for everyone to arrive. in a way, it's a bit of like sparing.. Its just not part of the curriculum.

Its just that whenever I "win" its just that i get the feeling its because im stronger or bigger than my partner, and when I lose, its because my partner is stronger or bigger than me..

It makes it hard for me to evaluate the benefits of sparing when my own experience of it has yet to show me any..
Or they are there, I haven't yet discovered them..

Uke Iacta Est
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:03 AM   #73
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Well, one benefit is that you realize your aikido is still limited to prevailing because of size or strength. So you know you have to train more to go beyond that (what is the point if there are no possibilities of going beyond size or strength??).

I'd bet that if you continue testing in that setting over some extended time, you may find ways to implement what you do in class in that setting. Maybe not every time...but perhaps enough to just a little more chance in a bad situation than you might have had without the training. That little edge might just enable you to survive.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:38 AM   #74
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Mattias Bengtsson wrote: View Post
Don, I actually agree with most if not all your points..

In our dojo we sometimes before or after class we do a bit of "practical applications", basically, just fooling around while waiting for everyone to arrive. in a way, it's a bit of like sparing.. Its just not part of the curriculum.

Its just that whenever I "win" its just that i get the feeling its because im stronger or bigger than my partner, and when I lose, its because my partner is stronger or bigger than me..

It makes it hard for me to evaluate the benefits of sparing when my own experience of it has yet to show me any..
Or they are there, I haven't yet discovered them..
The trick in that situation is to look at it constructively. How did the bigger guy beat you? How did you win against a smaller guy? Was it just strength? Was it good technique? What could be done to cope with how you were beaten? How can you practice the methods required to cope with the reason you were beaten?

To beat someone smaller then you with strength is easy. To beat someone smaller then you with strength when the small guy has good technique is harder. To beat someone smaller then you without using strength is very hard. If you are constantly beating someone because you are bigger, try not using strength and focus in on your technique. If you are being beaten by guys bigger then you, learn from it. Focus on techniques that take advantage of their size.

I have an old saying I tell new guys in my club. "Don't pull guard on a fat guy." It's another way of saying the situation dictates the tactics, not the other way around.

And sure, it all sounds very easy to say on a forum. In practice it takes a LONG time to get good at. I sparred 4 days a week for a year before I ever tapped anyone bigger/stronger then me. I know a 15 year old kid in our club who can put the hurting on most adults of any size in bjj, myself included. He knows how to play to his advantages (crazy flexibility and speed). I think he is about 115 pounds.

In the end it comes down to looking at it from a 3rd party viewpoint. You have to be honest. If you are told a technique works on bigger stronger attackers, and you can't seem to get it to work in sparing, you have to ask why?

Is the problem you? Is the problem the technique? Is the problem somewhere in between?

I keep a notebook log of all my sparing and training. I use it to keep tabs on what I need to work on and how I feel about what I've done. I highly recommend that, and asking your instructor for some insight into why what you are trying to do just isn't working like you think it should.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:56 AM   #75
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Aikido is in a lucky position currently, it is still relatively close to it's source. But lets look 5 generations from now after all the people who knew people who knew Ueshiba, or even Ueshiba's students are long dead. If nobody is sparing, how do they even know what they are doing is even close to what he did?

Sure they can do some resistance drills, and it helps keep people a little honest. Its in my experience though that what I refer to as resistance drills is usually looked as sparing by most aikidoka. What I see most aikidoka refer to as resistance drills are just the same kata only grabbing stronger or trying to use muscle to prevent them from moving your arm,etc. When I say resistance drill, I'm talking from the prospective of the mount escape drill. I put you in mount, you work your best to escape, I resist you and counter you at varing levels of resistance. We go until you escape, or I submit you, then we reset and do it again. While some aikido schools do this, it seems to me they are a minority.

In fact I've posted the kind of drills I'm talking about once before.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=60
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=62

These can go a long way in keeping sure that the techniques you do are in the spirit of the techniques you were taught.

And yes it is true that sparing only can not keep your art pure. It requires instructors with good character. Anyone can water down sparing with useless rules, a few deadly myths, and light to no contact, then turn their art into a money grubing empire. But arts with real sparing, judo, bjj, boxing, MT, Kokoshin karate(spelling?) and it's like have all been able to keep their effectiveness without doubt. Further more, because of MMA, arts like bjj have been able to flaws in their art and many work to fix them. This means there will be evolution in the art, it will grow beyond and has already grown beyond the gracies. For example, my club has noticed that in our matches in mma and bjj competition that our lack of good throws has cost us many a match, and relying on single and double legs is losing some effectiveness now that people are learning how to work with those takedowns. A lot of us are seeking out judo to fill this hole, learning how to use judo in the context of bjj and mma. This is nothing new to fighting, but future generations of bjj students will be taught by people who are doing this and other things. So their bjj will not be lacking and they won't need to go cross train in judo. This fact is even further reflected in MMA. MMA in the past was going to a club to learn bjj, then MT or boxing, or some other mix of arts. And this is still done, but it is slowly becoming history. It is now possible to go to a gym that trains MMA. It's not put on a gi learn some bjj for an hour, then go put on some gloves and learn some boxing and then maybe if you are lucky do some mma sparing. It's all MMA, all focused only on MMA, and no longer is it a mix of arts, but a single unit designed to be effective in MMA. This is good evolution, though testing.

Phil, Yes, MMA is about winning and losing, it is a sport. But sparing and testing is not about winning or losing. When I go to a competition, I'm trying to win. I play different, I'm using everything I've got with no regard for my partner beyond the rules. I trust that my ref will keep him safe as long as I obey the rules. If I armbar him and he chooses not to tap, I will choose to continue my armbar to it's logical end.

But sparing is different in MMA, bjj, judo, etc. It is most defiantly not about winning. It is about exploration of technique and learning about yourself and how you respond to pressure. The focus of the session depends on the quality of partners, our own goals, and how we structure the session. I'm not caring about winning in this situation. If I get an armbar and my partner will not tap, I do not hurt him, rather I use this as a change to work on a transition and move on to something else. If it was about winning, I'd break his arm.

I am not saying people need to compete. That is silly. While I think competition is a good thing, and can be very healthy when done in the right context, I know it is not for everyone. I do think however sparing is a requirement for effective martial arts. You need the whole gambit of training.

Static drills
Drills with motion
Drills with motion and timing
Drills with motion timing and resistance
Positional sparing
Sparing

And you need to do some of this now and then with people who are not from the art you train. There is group think in martial arts, even the awesomeness that is bjj has group think. So you need sparing with guys who don't think like you. To make sure you are doing good technique, and not just good technique against guys trained to act like you do.
Hello don

Didn't we have that loosing winning debate before?
Basically I would say that it is just a matter of changing the victory conditions but nonetheless I agree with what you are saying on training, ( as well as competition and about MMA)

About resistance drill in aikido and in MMA/BJJ.
I see what you mean. As well as grabbing properly and resisting, We get some punch/grab/kick going when we uke (obviously according with whom we train).
But it is not similar to the mount/being mounted or guard/in guard drill that you mention..

phil

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