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aries admin 06-26-2002 11:10 PM

Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Its one of the favorite topic in our DOJO. What can an AIKIDOKA do with a BRAZILIAN JUJITSU practioner?

My opinion (READ: OPINION) Technique wise Aikido is really rich compared to the B Jujitsu. It will be hard for a B Jujitsu to tackle down a well versed AIKIDOKA.

I have tried to spar with a B. Jujitsu practioner and has indeed proven this. He tried many times to knock me down and he just could not get a hold on me. I simply blended with him and he always end up in the mat. He asked me numerous times did you trip me? I said no. On the ground with the B Jujitsu on top of me ( We started with me lying down) I was able to do both IKKYO and NIKKYO on one of the hands holding me down. Once I have done this I just rolled over still holding his hand. We ended up with me in the kneeling position while the guy is on the floor still PINNED.

With my back on the mat, I learned that an Aikidoka should be aware of the following things:

1. The punches - with your back on the mat it will be hard to parry it, one should be fast to apply the locks. faster than the punches. Try not to keep his head close to yours if you want to avoid the punches. See number 3
2. The leg locks - don't let them do this.
3. The hold that makes your head closer to his - I had a hard time applying the locks under this position. I pushed his head first then applied the lock.
4. If all things fail in real life don't forget to gouge the eyes and bite into their ears or any part of the body for the matter.

I was suprised of the result. I said a while ago about a WELL VERSED AIKIDOKA, I am far from that. Don't get me wrong about that statement,I only meant " If I can do it, a not so well versed Aikidoka what more can a well versed one do?"

On the other hand I think It will be B Jujitsu all the way if ever an Aikidoka is in on the mat on all fours with the B Jujitsu on his back. One has to avoid that from happening.

Then again the end result will still be on the practioner.

Iam interested in your comments and opinions or even experience.

Bronson 06-26-2002 11:16 PM

Quote:

What can an AIKIDOKA do with a BRAZILIAN JUJITSU practioner?
See a movie, get something to eat, paint a house, chase monkeys. Really just about anything you can do with any other person :p

Bronson

Edward 06-26-2002 11:23 PM

Having practiced Judo for many years, my personal experience is that Judo and Ju-Jitsu are unbeatable once a grappling hold has been established. I don't think the average aikidoka has enough experience in grappling to be able to do anything useful.

The advantage of aikido, the way I see it, is minimizing the contact with the opponent, and keeping distance, even with armlocks or throws which in opposition to Judo are done from a safe distance and do not require body to body contact.

This I believe leaves you free to worry about some other attackers while grappling in the mud with the other guy will leave you vulnerable to multiple attacks. Also this gives you the option of running away which would be more difficult while grappling.

Cheers,
Edward

shihonage 06-27-2002 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bronson


See a movie, get something to eat, paint a house, chase monkeys. Really just about anything you can do with any other person :p

Bronson

Exactly :)

PhiGammaDawg 06-27-2002 12:42 AM

aikidokas should try to be well rounded and should know some basic grappling skills...it could be complimentary...
we must also remember that aikido is not an attack first martial art like taekwondo...by attacking first we put ourselves in a dangerous situations anyways...
that is why 2 masters of jujitsu and aikido will not fight each other anyways *well not in the streets that is

they usually go for beer

Bruce Baker 06-27-2002 12:33 PM

BJJ and Aikido
 
I don't know who you were playing with in your little wrestling match, but any good BJJ guy will force you to the ground ... of course, if you are scratching the eyes, poking the throat, hitting groan target #1, or other illegal moves for BJJ practice, that would be closer to my old Kempo practice.

Oh, and don't forget throwing your opponent across the room, against the wall or slamming them to the mat are no-no's also.

On the other hand, if your opponent used any of these distractions upon you, then I would be seeing a different story, maybe a more humble aikido practitioner?

I kind of liked the rough and tumble see what works on the ground practice of BJJ, it was eye opening enough to provide many balance, and unbalance points that translated into other Aikido techniques. It generally took jujitsu to another place that we don't always get time to explore, into a bloody streetfight/wrestling arena.

Just about anyone who says they only do Aikido usually freezes when grappled, my hat is off to you for not freezing, good job.

You shouldn't be cocky about though, because some little guy, who really looks like nothing, will probably beat your ass, and it will be because you were not respectful of BJJ?

On the other hand, if you are both just beginners, trying each others previous style, and looking for ways to adapt or overcome, it was a good lesson for winner and loser.

I probably shouldn't have said anything, but we are humble, respectful of other arts when we show Aikido, aren't we?

I was just kidding, there won't be a little guy from Brazil to beat you up ...

Maybe three big guys who want to have words with you and set you straight, but no little guy.

(Just kidding.)

aries admin 06-28-2002 12:46 AM

BJJ sparring
 
Don't get me wrong I did not post to brag was just trying to relate my experience to everyone and hope to see what others think of it. Thank you for the replies. I got some things to clarify:

My BJJ sparring partner has been practicing for more than two years now. He has not achieve ROYCE's caliber yet but one thing I can be sure of is this, if I used my knowledge in Tae Kwon Do rather than my Aikido I would be on the mat and struggling. I have more than five years of TKD background yet I don't think I am fast enough to kick or get away the way he SHOOTS at me. On the Aikido side I have more than sixteen months of practice.


The rules of the sparring is this, take down, throwing, pinning, grappling and choking allowed. Punching and kicking allowed too. No biting, eye gouging,poking, targetting of the groin.


Bruce, thanks for the advice just to clarify however I RESPECT BJJ. I respect all aspect and types of martial art. Its not the ART as I always been told its the practioner.

Doshu 06-28-2002 04:28 AM

BJJ
 
All these posts really prove is preference, I mean on an Aikido web site it is unlikely that anyone is really going to say that BJJ is better than aikido. Its like comparing a sports car and a 4*4. They are not the same and so uncomparable. However they do have there advantages in certain terrain. BJJ has a considerable amount of ground work. Were as the Aikidoka, does but not at the same level.

What is it though with BJJ as everyone seems to be pitting there martial art against it. I have seen this on both karate and judo site. So perhaps these martial arts have something to prove. However Aikdio is not about fighting its about thinking.

the likely hood of to martial artists squaring off is unlikely. Especially an Aikidoka. As if you go looking for a fight then you are a failure as a student in Morihei's eyes.

Thats not to say that you cant train with different disaplines. But in a really fight, all martial arts take a more sinister turn. You will always hold something back if it is not a real fight.

Cheers
Chris

paw 06-28-2002 08:49 AM

Aries,

Quote:

All these posts really prove is preference, I mean on an Aikido web site it is unlikely that anyone is really going to say that BJJ is better than aikido.
Ah what the heck, I'll say it. BJJ is better than aikido.;)

Debriefing for your partner:

Quote:

On the ground with the B Jujitsu on top of me ( We started with me lying down) I was able to do both IKKYO and NIKKYO on one of the hands holding me down.
Then your partner does not have good posture or control. Considering you later say you reverse the situation I assume either: your partner had very poor base, you have a significant size and weight advantage, or both.

Quote:

My BJJ sparring partner has been practicing for more than two years now. He has not achieve ROYCE's caliber yet but one thing I can be sure of is this, if I used my knowledge in Tae Kwon Do rather than my Aikido I would be on the mat and struggling. I have more than five years of TKD background yet I don't think I am fast enough to kick or get away the way he SHOOTS at me. On the Aikido side I have more than sixteen months of practice.
So your partner is a wet-behind-the-ears blue belt, with a poor sense of strategy. Your partner should stop trying to shoot and let you come to him and then clinch. If your partner cannot touch you, they are too far away to shoot with any certainty.


Quote:

1. The punches - with your back on the mat it will be hard to parry it, one should be fast to apply the locks. faster than the punches. Try not to keep his head close to yours if you want to avoid the punches.
Your partner should study the Brazilian Top Team's approach to striking (see Sperry's Value Tudo series). It sounds like your partner is losing control in order to strike. Try controlling first, then striking.
Second, there are a number of times when you would want your head close to your partner's to avoid strikes. The classic example is when you are mounted.

Quote:

4. If all things fail in real life don't forget to gouge the eyes and bite into their ears or any part of the body for the matter.
Speculating on real life from a sparring match is a mistake. Wear goggles, roll lightly and add eye gouges, bites, knives and other assorted nastiness into your sessions and then draw conclusions. I'd recommend against this at this stage, as it sounds to me like your partner needs to focus on positional control first.

Respectfully,

Paul

PS. The preferred spelling is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or bjj for short. If your partner is ranked by Royce/Rorion, et al, you may add "Gracie" to the art's name or abreviate it GJJ.

Doshu 06-28-2002 10:19 AM

Paw
 
Many Thanks for your brave comment. However like I was saying no martial art is better than another. Some are Long Medium Range some are Medium short. Some use weapons. Some dont. Its down to the practioner. I am sure there have been cases that unfit man, with no martial arts training has won out against a well versed martial artist. Its all about heart. Weither you REALLY want it.

I would not imagin that Morihei would compare martial arts. Neither should we.

Cheers
Chris

Paula Lydon 06-30-2002 08:46 AM

From what I've seen Brazillian Jujitsu is, all be it powerful, narrow and specialized. I come out of 12 years of a full-carriculum Jujitsu style, of which grappling is a part of the whole. Sometimes to be on the ground is stronger for you, sometimes it's stupid, but then we didn't train for the ring but the street. I'd suggest that if you're that interested (your reasons are your own) in testing yourself in this manner then you should play with a fuller-range Jujitsuka, or anyone from any other art. You will learn much...just remember to play nice.
Young bulls ram their heads into each other half the day, gaining strength and expierence, then graze together the remainder.
Compitition (yet another word perverted)is not 'evil' in and of itself, it's a tool like any other. How are you using it? Enjoy your research :ai: :D :ki:

erikhill76 09-13-2007 02:52 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

Paula Lydon wrote: (Post 22794)
From what I've seen Brazillian Jujitsu is, all be it powerful, narrow and specialized. I come out of 12 years of a full-carriculum Jujitsu style, of which grappling is a part of the whole. Sometimes to be on the ground is stronger for you, sometimes it's stupid, but then we didn't train for the ring but the street. I'd suggest that if you're that interested (your reasons are your own) in testing yourself in this manner then you should play with a fuller-range Jujitsuka, or anyone from any other art. You will learn much...just remember to play nice.
Young bulls ram their heads into each other half the day, gaining strength and expierence, then graze together the remainder.
Compitition (yet another word perverted)is not 'evil' in and of itself, it's a tool like any other. How are you using it? Enjoy your research :ai: :D :ki:

I think BJJ is overrated. It works great in MMA with highly trained athletes, but even then you cannot overlook the punishment they take in order to "win" with an arm bar or choke. Personally, I would much rather learn to defend against committed attacks, grabs, and strikes; then to learn how to submit someone after they have beaten my face to a pulp. The bottom line is Aikido to me is a martial art BJJ is a sport. Both have applications for self-defense, but both are flawed. If you really wanna learn to defend yourself take a 6 week Krav Maga course.

Erik.

lbb 09-13-2007 03:27 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
I long for the day when this whole question and all like it can be relegated to the "can superman beat up batman?" circular file where they belong.

Dewey 09-13-2007 04:27 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 189594)
I long for the day when this whole question and all like it can be relegated to the "can superman beat up batman?" circular file where they belong.

AMEN!

This sort of pointless discourse has been clogging Aikiweb as of late. Such "observations" and "discussions" (if can really call them that) need to move over to Bullshido, where such things are obsessed over ad nauseam...with much vulgarity, I might add.

mathewjgano 09-13-2007 05:00 PM

Re: BJJ and Aikido
 
Quote:

Bruce Baker wrote: (Post 22609)
...any good BJJ guy will force you to the ground ...

...except for those good BJJ guys that couldn't force other folks to the ground in UFC fights I've seen. Not that it isn't even likely, but saying they will automatically (no matter how good) seems rather premature.

mathewjgano 09-13-2007 05:08 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

Brian Dewey wrote: (Post 189599)
AMEN!

This sort of pointless discourse has been clogging Aikiweb as of late. Such "observations" and "discussions" (if can really call them that) need to move over to Bullshido, where such things are obsessed over ad nauseam...with much vulgarity, I might add.

But it's SOOO important! ;) I know I tend to get caught up in these kinds of "discussions" so i can relate to those who perpetuate them so much. People take their passions passionately after all, and people seem to love beating dead horses (not enough glue in the world apparently). On one hand I can see the importance of letting people know the truth of a situation they're deluded about. On the other hand it's often larger on ego and shorter on perspective. If folks want to waste energy, so be it. Personally, I'm just trying to be a more articulate person and I find the difficulties of the "my art rules; your art sucks" (and variations of that) a great opportunity to practice calm and rational discourse. After a point it does become useless though, even to someone like me.
Cheers!

Roman Kremianski 09-13-2007 09:50 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

I have tried to spar with a B. Jujitsu practioner and has indeed proven this. He tried many times to knock me down and he just could not get a hold on me. I simply blended with him and he always end up in the mat. He asked me numerous times did you trip me? I said no. On the ground with the B Jujitsu on top of me ( We started with me lying down) I was able to do both IKKYO and NIKKYO on one of the hands holding me down. Once I have done this I just rolled over still holding his hand. We ended up with me in the kneeling position while the guy is on the floor still PINNED.
Not even gonna bother sugar coating it, but I don't believe you. Sorry.

Dan Austin 09-13-2007 11:58 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

Roman Kremianski wrote: (Post 189621)
Not even gonna bother sugar coating it, but I don't believe you. Sorry.

Took the words out of my mouth. ;) Apart from that, a dozen years ago such style vs style nonsense was common, frankly I'm amazed to see it still going so far into the MMA era. People mixed styles long before MMA, but you have to be living under a rock to still think one style is the uber style. BJJ is very good at what it does, but it's only a piece of the puzzle, albeit a pretty reliable one.

Upyu 09-14-2007 12:57 AM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Wow, for once I agree with Dan and Roman :)

salim 09-14-2007 04:31 AM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Spiritual mysticism is one cause for that kind of mentality. Delusional grandeur's of Aikido. I agree with Dan and Roman.

grondahl 09-14-2007 04:51 AM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
1: The OP is 5 years old.
2: I think that Paw answered the original poster in a constructive and reasonable way. Far above Dan, Roman, Salims and Roberts posts in this thread. Can´t we just let the thread die?

philippe willaume 09-14-2007 07:01 AM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

Aries Navy wrote: (Post 22550)
Its one of the favorite topic in our DOJO. What can an AIKIDOKA do with a BRAZILIAN JUJITSU practioner?

My opinion (READ: OPINION) Technique wise Aikido is really rich compared to the B Jujitsu. It will be hard for a B Jujitsu to tackle down a well versed AIKIDOKA.

I have tried to spar with a B. Jujitsu practioner and has indeed proven this. He tried many times to knock me down and he just could not get a hold on me. I simply blended with him and he always end up in the mat. He asked me numerous times did you trip me? I said no. On the ground with the B Jujitsu on top of me ( We started with me lying down) I was able to do both IKKYO and NIKKYO on one of the hands holding me down. Once I have done this I just rolled over still holding his hand. We ended up with me in the kneeling position while the guy is on the floor still PINNED.

With my back on the mat, I learned that an Aikidoka should be aware of the following things:

1. The punches - with your back on the mat it will be hard to parry it, one should be fast to apply the locks. faster than the punches. Try not to keep his head close to yours if you want to avoid the punches. See number 3
2. The leg locks - don't let them do this.
3. The hold that makes your head closer to his - I had a hard time applying the locks under this position. I pushed his head first then applied the lock.
4. If all things fail in real life don't forget to gouge the eyes and bite into their ears or any part of the body for the matter.

I was suprised of the result. I said a while ago about a WELL VERSED AIKIDOKA, I am far from that. Don't get me wrong about that statement,I only meant " If I can do it, a not so well versed Aikidoka what more can a well versed one do?"

On the other hand I think It will be B Jujitsu all the way if ever an Aikidoka is in on the mat on all fours with the B Jujitsu on his back. One has to avoid that from happening.

Then again the end result will still be on the practioner.

Iam interested in your comments and opinions or even experience.

Hum
I have tried that with my BJJ nephew (lest than a year in bJJ) and some grappler in the medieval martial arts world.

In the standing phase, If you can (as in are allowed to use punches (well kick knee elbow and so on) you have a chance to keep him away and enter or to jam his grab (And that put it the stuff out side the BJJ world and really making a better striker than they).
It did not work all the times but It gives you a fighting chance. I.e. you need to be better at that that he is at taking you down.

When we worked from the ground, other than me mounting and being allowed to strike (or trap one or the arms and strike) or just leaning over trapping one arm, sitting on hips/tops of pelvis and pushing under his throat with one for arm.
I invariably got my arse chewed (and I am 20 kg heavier than my nephew)
We did it with me in the guard or they in my guard, mounting or mounted.

Since we exchanging opinions and experiences
Be it a BJJ guy or any type of grappler, I found that they keep their elbow close to their body and have good connection with the ground , that make ikkio nikkio and so on almost impossible to apply before the can prevent it to happen.

Ikkio nikio and so on become only possible when a knife is already out or accessed sneakily. What we have noticed is that they then tend to extend their arms more and they are not that flat on the ground with the hips anymore

We have noticed that if the grappler is aware of the weapon, they can usually prevent you to access it; starting from standing up, we use a shove of the other hand and moving one hip back. To facilitate weapon access and make jamming the drawing hand more difficult
That being said we just tried to access the weapon first (IE the knife man was not trying the wrestle a bit and then use the weapon)

I do not know if I am well versed (just 7 years of aikido) plus a few in muy thai and Chinese boxing. (and 25 year of horse riding, that does help when it comes to oompha)
Could describe the setup and what yo did to see if I can re-create it

Phil
Ps what did you do against shoot and attempt of taking you down with his guard/ half guard?

Dan Austin 09-14-2007 12:24 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 189648)
1: The OP is 5 years old.
2: I think that Paw answered the original poster in a constructive and reasonable way. Far above Dan, Roman, Salims and Roberts posts in this thread. Can´t we just let the thread die?

No, because posters whom you give more credit than Rob, Salim, Roman, and myself will give serious responses to a question you admit is worthy of a 5 yr old, thus guaranteeing the thread will go on for several hundred more posts. :)

What's truly sad is that the ratio of views/posts in this thread outstrip the average substantially, showing that a morbid fascination with this sort of topic persists.

Kevin Leavitt 09-14-2007 01:28 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Dan, if nothing else, it is entertainment for me. I don't have cable TV. :)

Cyrijl 09-14-2007 02:03 PM

Re: Aikido Vs. Jujitsu (brazilian)
 
Quote:

1: The OP is 5 years old.
2: I think that Paw answered the original poster in a constructive and reasonable way. Far above Dan, Roman, Salims and Roberts posts in this thread. Can´t we just let the thread die?
Yes it is old, but people to this day believe this tripe.

And while Paw did respond well to the OP, your passive aggressiveness is exactly why people won't let this thread die. If you have something to say then say it and back it up. Too often the sport vs street debate is brought up, and almost invariably the 'street' people run from a real challenge. This is even in cases of friendly sparring or randoori.

Roman just came and said what he thought and it is about time. And Dan's post is something that people need to better understand. BJJ is just part of an overal fighting strategy.

MMA IS NOT BJJ.

People who train to fight, train not only BJJ but also in striking and clinching ranges. In addition fewer and fewer fighters are training formal BJJ. There is also wrestling, judo, sombo, etc.

No one here forces you to read these threads. Nobody was being insulting or rude.


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