Newbies should struggle?

@ Mark Freeman

If for any reason they are not happy with it, they can speak to their teacher, or chose to go somewhere else. The student is free to come and go as they please. The teacher is only a teacher at the behest of the students.

<tongue in cheek>Or they can post to public forum about and hope they don't come off as insulting...</tongue in cheek>

All kidding aside thank you for your input.

Your quote above is the truest of statements and why I'm more focused in understanding the methodology rather than adjusting my own situation. I could choose another dojo but I doubt I'd like it as much as the one I'm in now. I do believe the instructors have the best intentions at heart and some of them do teach in the exact manner that I prefer. I don't know that I'd ever bring this subject up as a newbie, heck I'd be reluctant to bring it up as an instructor to more senior instructors. That hesistation however, does not diminish the need for the discussion as several posts here cite the more negative aspects in full detail of not reviewing the use of hands off teaching. I don't want to spark a revolution in my dojo, but I'd like to be better informed for that far off day when I can consider opening my own. A large part of the preparation is understanding issues from multiple aspects and not just my own background or experience.

Miles, I've only heard two reasonable justifications for the "show do" style you're describing. The first revolved around a language barrier with the instructors English not being up to expanding what he was wanting verbally, but even here he would take over as nage or uke to expand the point he was making.

The second was more to prevent over-teaching where so many ideas and concepts are thrown at a new student they are left with the feeling of being unable to do anything. I've seen this happen with senior students "helping" newer students and have asked that the corrections are kept to a minimum from time to time.

Otherwise, I'm with Mark here, not a fan of no explanation, mainly because if I can't get explain what I'm wanting, what the hell am I doing teaching it?

@ Miles

Discussion is good. Sharing of opinions is good. Questioning is good. None of that is teaching or training.

I have been teaching for only a couple of years, and I used to take every single opportunity to help, guide and encourage every new person who walked in the door, no matter how much they resisted being taught (and they will) or how often it needed repeating. I became astute at feeling out how much repetition each person could handle before a change in tact was required (I firmly believe there are no bad students or bad teachers, just poor matching of learning styles and teaching styles). Man, I talked and talked and showed and showed.

My style of teaching is no less caring or patient, I hope, but I have begun to 1) limit my corrections and guidance and 2) remind newbs they are doing fine, because most of the time, they are.

The challenge as a teacher, I hope you find, is that it matters very little what you do or say or what you DONT do or say; the core reasons a newby walks in the door AND chooses to stay is within them, it does not come from anyone else.

I think that the concept is difficult to explain . Humans are programmed to learn and in the end, they actually teach themselves or said another way, they learn on their own. They must be shown and can be coached but having an extended faith in explaining is fruitless because they only learn what they have a capacity to learn. In any given session, they are only going to retain so much so they must be shown and can be coached but it will still be wrong because these skills are so complex, that it will take more time than is available to weed out all the mistakes and even if they do that, they will forget most of what they did the next time. We teach a little bit at a time and then practice and refine, practice and refine. I tell my students, do the best you can and I will correct one or two things for this time and go ahead and continue to do what you can. If you can correct what I show you today, that will be something you build on but if you don't even get that, then all the talking was in vain. I have seen lots of people over explain and it is a big waste of time. People need to right to do it wrong. This is a process that never ends. I still am in that process myself.
There is a discipline as well in being patient and struggling through things but it is not an attempt to frustrate. No matter what I say to a beginner, they will only make a limited amount of progress each time. I have students of three years of practice that still don't do many things I have told them. Even though I have told them and shown them some very simple things hundreds and hundreds of times. I actually don't tell them anymore because I have realized they are at a place they like and despite all my efforts, have established their pattern. That is the human way. We do explain and we always show the correct way but it is up to the learner to learn. No one can "learn" you. The learning is up to you and will take some time through many repetitions and corrections. I was in Aikido for almost 6 years before I finally learned something about Ikkyo my teacher had been telling me for years. He only needed to have told me that a few times because it was just going to take me a while to understand that and do it.
http://www.shudokanaikido.com/module....php?storyid=1
Best wishes,

Jorge Garcia wrote: I was in Aikido for almost 6 years before I finally learned something about Ikkyo my teacher had been telling me for years.

Hah! Haven't most of us been there? I certainly have.
Me - "Ohhhh! Move with your CENTER!"
Sensei - <rolls eyes> "Really?" <laughs>

Nick Pittson wrote: Hah! Haven't most of us been there? I certainly have. Me - "Ohhhh! Move with your CENTER!" Sensei - <rolls eyes> "Really?" <laughs>

Dittos.

I just started practicing Aikido in February at age 42 so I can understand a bit of the frustration you're feeling. For me, it's because Aikido is such a foreign thing and so completely different -- and therefore so wonderfully challenging -- than anything I've ever done.

It's that challenge and the layers of the work (physical and mental/spiritual) that have hooked me and I can't imagine life without Aikido now.

That said, do I sense that you feel learning would be easier if techniques would be taught perhaps like in a dance class, with lots of repetition of one part, over and over, until you got it?

That's how I learn physical movement, too, but I soon saw that with Aikido, just trying to follow the technique was teaching me something. It's a thinking art, not a rote art, and eventually I should be able to change what I'm doing based on what my partner is offering, rather than rely on the same response to the same attack every time.

One thing my Sensei has wisely said is to take movement, any movement, and shape it. It **doesn't have to be perfect.** Early on, and still now and then, I lock up because I don't want to do something "wrong." But zero movement doesn't get me anywhere. Doing something, anything, is movement that can be polished.

I wonder if you're feeling some perfectionism and wanting to get things right? I have struggled with that -- the being a good student thing -- but I realize that I CAN'T be good at Aikido yet! Sure, some things are starting to make more sense, but there's no reason to pressure myself or get upset for not being good at it right now. Maybe in 7 years, but not now.

That doesn't mean I'm complacent about learning. I try 110% each class, and practice what I remember at home. I know I'm not good, so I accept that for this moment -- but strive to continually improve.

As for newbies standing around on the mat not knowing what to do, yes I've been there. I'd watch the demonstration of the technique, pick a partner, and then my mind would go blank.

Then I realized that as kohai, I am always uke first (in our dojo, everyone is more advanced than me) and it's my responsibility to really be observant and know what to do as uke. What hanmi, what grab, which strike, etc., so that I can be ready to start the techniques with my partner.

With so many advanced students, I realized I was defaulting to the knowledge that they would help me out (which they gladly and kindly do) but I was shirking my part of responsibility to the partnership with my practice partner.

Lastly, observation is a huge part of learning Aikido, both techniques and the unspoken aspects of the art. If we can't figure out a technique, we watch the others to see if we can at least get a semblance of it. If not, Sensei has eyes in the back and sides of his head and usually is there pretty quickly helping out. And if not, we keep trying.

In our dojo, we strive to talk very little. I remember one class being taught by our Sempai in which I had a question, directly related to the technique. I asked it, he paused, smiled, and said, "Keep working!"

It has stuck with me as good advice on and off the mat. And interestingly, by the end of the class, my question that was so urgent really didn't matter any more. It was answered by observation or it ceased to be important.

But for me, I've found that just doing my best and keeping a good attitude about it will go a long way in helping my learning progress.

Sorry for the long post.

Kara

I suppose that some teachers want us to learn from experience and repitition, rather than literal explanation. The physics of what we do can be explained easily to an intelligent person, and make a lot of sense; that doesn't necessarily mean that the student can perform technique right away, though. Our parents know when we take our first steps that we're going to do a lot of falling in the course of our lives, but it wouldn't be right to hold our hands forever and never let us learn to have our own balance.

My sensei sometimes teaches with very little explanation, and it can be frustrating.

Sometimes he teaches with a whole bunch of words. The newbies understand perfectly what they are supposed to do, and still can't do it; That's frustrating, too.

I believe that my sensei wants me to focus. He wants me to concentrate on what's going on and see things that I otherwise would have missed...

...in and out of the dojo.

Kara Stewart wrote: ...I had a question, directly related to the technique. I asked it, he paused, smiled, and said, "Keep working!" It has stuck with me as good advice on and off the mat. And interestingly, by the end of the class, my question that was so urgent really didn't matter any more. It was answered by observation or it ceased to be important.

This is the situation that I believe most "Don't teach by telling" teachers are going for. However, what many of them fail to understand is that by not saying ANYTHING to their students, they increase the frustration, which is not, in my experience, conducive to learning aikido, or many other things for that matter.

Personally, I make it a point to tell my students something to the effect of, "You're on the right track. I think you can work it out on your own though, so I don't want to tell you." And I'll remind them of the focus of the technique, whether it be balance, unbalance, timing, entering, whatever. Enough of an affirmation that I see which part of the technique is frustrating them, without telling them everything.

To me it's an issue of respect. I believe my students are intelligent enough to find the "key (ki)" to the technique. To tell them the answer treats them as if they are NOT smart enough, and also robs them of the pleasure of having figured it out.

That said, there are many other aspects to teaching well. As a trained teacher, I know that. But many martial arts teachers have only their own teachers to base their teaching methods on. If you've only ever learned one way to teach, it's hard to create your own.

Until I've worked with a new student long enough to know whether they are a visual, an auditory, or a kinesthetic learner, I may not reach them as clearly as they want. And being the student, what they want may not always be what they really need to learn. It takes time to figure that out as well. For both of us.

And as a student, I don't always know what _I_ need. Case in point: My sensei said to me a few weeks ago, "I'm glad I promoted you to first kyu (which he did without warning or test). You really needed a kick in the ass." Which I did. I had been coasting at 2nd kyu for 4, maybe 5 years, with no real desire to test. But once I was 1st kyu, I felt the desire to go that next step to shodan. And once I did that, my passion for aikido was reignited, my desire to be more active at the dojo was kindled, and I'm enjoying all aspects of aikido more.

I'd been told over and over that I needed to test, but I didn't comprehend that "I _needed_ to test." Sensei moved me up, kicked me in the ass, I didn't really get it at the time, but now I do. I think.


Bill

(Damn, what was the point I was trying to make? Well, see, now I've told you everything, and it's so confusing. I should have just said, "Watch this, and try it out." Damn it.

Allow me to flip the table, Miles.

While you are busy trying to understand the "Why" of things as they are now, how could the teaching of Aikido be done better?

What would you do, or think should be done, instead of throwing the kids in the deep end and telling them to swim?

How can the teaching of Aikido be done better?

John Boswell wrote: Allow me to flip the table, Miles. While you are busy trying to understand the "Why" of things as they are now, how could the teaching of Aikido be done better? What would you do, or think should be done, instead of throwing the kids in the deep end and telling them to swim? How can the teaching of Aikido be done better?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquiry_education

A great article on this can be found here

@John Boswell

I can't bite the bait on this one no matter how badly I want to.

The same statement I made above about not using my previous training in class I think applies here on an Aikido focused message board regarding instruction style. I do have an opinion and an approach in which I hold high confidence but I suspect it would get lost in translation. Moreso, one of the reasons I have taken up Aikido is to broaden my horizons as a student and see martial arts training through another set of eyes. This includes views that I don't understand or agree with which I can then ask for more enlightenment on.

I will say however, that even the proponents of hands-off approaches have all made certain they listed other methods of interaction beyond the demonstration of a technique. Pairing up novices with the more experienced and clarifying or abolishing the "Only Sensei teaches" concept (not directly mentioned in this thread but found in one that ended up in a similar space) are fairly important to provide the extra cushion mentally, emotionally and physically that newcomers and novices need.

You do not rob a new student of accomplishment by helping them too much, a new student will eventually become a constant student and will have many more opportunities to gain insight into their form and growth. While the desire to train comes from within, there are enough challenges in the modern world that will discourage active pursuit of the martial arts without artificially being presented more as a new student.

Ok, I nibbled at it.....

Miles,
This is not an answer to your question, but if you are frustrated I have a suggestion.
If possible, try to partner with a senior student. He may not know the whole technique correctly, but can at least get you started and get the basic moves.
My sensei will actually break up a pair if two "newbies" are paired up and there are seniors not paired with a "newbie".
As uke, I will even try to guide someone by moving to where nage should put me if everything is totally muddy for him.
Remember this when you are the senior student.

Eric

Miles Calunod wrote: I have read/heard more than once now that instructors seem to favor having students struggle through techniques at the early levels of aikido. Being new to aikido, I'd like to know why? If I were to teach someone to bake a cake I wouldn't bake 4 cakes in front of them, 2 chocolate and 2 yellow then say "Bake me a cake, yellow or chocolate your choice".

How about just shut up and train?

If you were to teach someone to bake a cake, they'd be dependant on the next person to hold their hand through it when they're trying to learn how to make bread.

However, no one explained the techniques to me, and I walk into other dojos and catch onto the underlying principles behind their techniques in minutes...No one holding my hand to explain them.

Because I was trained to steal techniques...I steal techniques.

That and a multitude of other benefits.

Just shut up and train.

Just thought about this: It would have the effect of washing out the wrong type of student for that school. Not that one school is better or worse in a general sense, but you definitely see a difference in the personality and technique of different dojo.

How about just shut up and train?....However, no one explained the techniques to me, and I walk into other dojos and catch onto the underlying principles behind their techniques in minutes...No one holding my hand to explain them.

This approach may work well for you and for that you have my admiration in your deft skills. I however believe that martial arts are for everyone. "Aikido is not an art to fight with or to defeat an enemy. It is a Way in which to harmonize all people into one family." I'd like to think that he didn't only want to include those with the power of Sharingan (tm).

This thread isn't about telling me how to be a better student, it is for the discussion of a teaching perspective that has significant impact on one's training attitude and approach. If an art is not accessible, how can it spread and unify the world? If every student is encouraged to wash out because they cannot acclimate to visual mimicry where does that leave Aikido? As an elitiest art that only the chosen few may learn and follow?

I wish to learn about my new chosen art and that includes how it is taught. If you are threatened by that then by all means use the Ignore function on this message board and you have my best wishes for your future.

To all those that have contributed on both sides and in the middle of the road, I thank you. This discussion has been productive to me and I look forward to taking part in many more. It has actually raised some new questions to me and that is always a good thing. Case in point, the mention of over-teaching which is the flip side of not providing enough instruction.

As for myself, I have stated multiple times in this thread that I am happy with my dojo and have nothing but respect for my instructors. Am I frustrated with being a newbie again? Yes but I'd feel that way with anything new, that's just my personality. Do I find fault with my instructors for teaching via a method I disagree with? No, because if I did I would vote with my feet and move on. I agreed to this particular approach when I asked to join. Do I think there is a better way than the one being used? Yes, but it is not my house. One day in my house it will be different... or maybe it will be the same... or it might be somewhere in between... isn't that the point to asking questions and learning? A student must have the drive from within to learn but a teacher must be receptive to that desire and fan it, not quell it.

Good luck to all,

Miles

Each their own. But, if I had said that a jumping back breakfall was right for others, but not necessarily right for me, there'd be a whole lot more of Aikido I didn't understand. Instead, I recognized that my instructor knew better...

Just to throw in my two cents. At my Sambo gym, we are intentionally hard on new people. We make it tough for them the first few weeks they come becuase we don't want anyone who can't hang. We don't make it comfortable for people, or introduce them to it slowly, or let them take things at their own time. It's either our way or the highway. We also follow the 3rd or 4th rule of "Fight Club," if it's your first night, you have to fight (or in our case, roll). No one gets to come in and "just watch."

We've been that way for as long as I've been going there (just over 2 years). Right now we've got about a dozen guys coming regularly. The max we've ever had is around 15-16 and at it's low 3-4. That's just part of it. We're also in the unique situation that class is free, so we don't have to sell anything to anyone to stay in business.

Now, would this work in an Aikido dojo? I don't think so, it's probably contrary to the art in many people's eyes (although not to mine). It's definitely in stark contrast to the approach at many of the dojos I have trained or visited where people try and "sell" the dojo to new members.

So should newbies struggle? It probably depends on the goal of the dojo/gym.

Jean de Rochefort wrote: Just shut up and train.

Been there, heard that.

Miles Calunod wrote: Being new to aikido, I'd like to know why?

You asked why, we told you why.

The posts on the video clips of Chiba sensei have been moved here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10616

-- Jun

Jun,

Respectfully, was my post inapropriate with the links to the videos?
I apologize to everyone if it was...

Nick Pittson wrote: Jun, Respectfully, was my post inapropriate with the links to the videos?

They seemed out of context in regards to the topic of this thread.

-- Jun

It's all very simple

First you must learn how to learn..

Ruth

(something I'm still working on )

Miles wrote: Do I think there is a better way than the one being used? Yes, but it is not my house. One day in my house it will be different... or maybe it will be the same... or it might be somewhere in between... isn't that the point to asking questions and learning? A student must have the drive from within to learn but a teacher must be receptive to that desire and fan it, not quell it.

For the most part I agree with you, Miles. It was clear from the start what you first posted, not that you were struggling, but you wanted to know the reason behind the seeming allowance of struggling with and for beginners. This may vary from place to place, but the overall feel, to me, (and once you hop onto the seminar circuit), is that we're to feel it out, get it wrong, and then seeing/feeling/hearing what is right, we can correct it. Consider a seminar, we approximate first technique, sensei claps, and we all get to hear/see the few precious clues allowing us to zero in on it. depending on which point of the curve one may be on, more, or less zeroing is necessary.

For some reason the above seems to me as though I'm disagreeing with you, so let me revert a little. I started in Aikido 2.5 years ago at a gov't lab's gymnasium in D.C. The teacher was employed there, and so were each of the 3 other core members. PhD's the whole bunch, chemists, E&M physicists, rocket science, you name it. They were accustomed to putting complex ideas into understandable terms, and being employed there as an undergrad, I was used to hearing complex stuff in words. It helped knowing what the motivation of each particular action was, because then I could arrive to the conclusion to such a motivation in my own way.

Upon attempting something, it often didn't work, not because I didn't understand it mentally, but I couldn't get it into my other brain, in a corporeal, propriocentric sense. I struggled with the feel of it, and once my senior partner realized where my trouble lay, they made a brief comment and I adjusted appropriately, though still I often as not failed to budge them at all.

Either way, I had to work it out bodily. I can think about how the whole thing looks from my imagination, but I still and will have trouble seeing what it looks like from my legs, arms, and hips. I believe the way I was introduced to aikido as essential to my particular experience. I feel that it worked well for me, and that given the correct translation from one's mental language to another's it could work for other people as well, but the underlying piece of this education is the physiological ownership of movement/technique.

Nowadays at my current dojo, and one I've been at longer, I have some bodily vocabulary with which to think about technique if I found the initial demonstration lacking. And while I still don't get it right, thankfully teacher is right there to flip me over my head at exactly the point in my technique that I need to work on. While he's gracious enough to mention it, I take what I can get and feel it as well as hear it.

I hope teaching can happen for you because you seem passionate about communication. As you said, one day in your house it might be chocolate, or it might be vanilla. Here's my vote for neapolitan, something in between, with an unexpected addition, I don't know your M.A. history, but given a few months to a year of training, and a few seminars, or at least exposure to different instructors and you'll have more of a personal awareness of teaching/learning aikido.

michael.

John Boswell wrote: How can the teaching of Aikido be done better?

Earlier this year, "Beginners Retention Rate" (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...3&page=1&pp=25) was a similar Aikiweb thread.

To summarize my post to the earlier thread, I created a step-by-step methodology to teach beginners how to roll. The dojo turned a modest profit every year. After I left the dojo, nobody bothered to take the time necessary to teach the beginners. Enrollment has dipped and the dojo is now running slightly in the red.

Apparently throwing children into the deep end and hoping they learn how to swim appears to be more the norm than the exception in aikido schools in America. When people like Miles ask about the rational behind the teaching methodology, you can always count on someone to say "that's the way they do it in Japan" or "shut up and train."

When I briefly trained in Japan, I noticed novice students segregated from the general dojo population. They practiced ukemi or basic movements in the corner by themselves. An instructor would teach the novice student a basic movement. Instead of hovering over them, the teacher would then focus their attention on the rest of the class. But he would keep a watchful eye over the novice in the corner and, at times, give guidance and/or correction.

At another dojo in Japan, students of the same rank were paired up or grouped together. At Aikikai Hombu, there's a beginner's class on the fourth floor that proceeds at a much slower pace than the classes on the third floor.

In the "Newbies should struggle?" thread, there have been the standard justifications of "you have to experience it" or "practice makes perfect" to explain the "no talking" teaching methodology.

Exactly what is the novice students "experience" or "practice" if they don't know what they're supposed to be doing in the first place? Although the end result appears to be the same (ie uke falls down), novice students usually use brute force and speed to overcome any weaknesses in their technique.

My jujutsu teacher says, "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." By basically letting students "have at it," they ingrain poor habits that are harder to break at later stages of their training.

How can the teaching of aikido be done better?

Novice students should be segregated from the general dojo population. They should be taught how to properly stretch. They should be taught how to roll in a step-by-step manner. They should be allowed to practice rolling by themselves. Novice students should be taught how to do some of the simple attacks, with and without weapons. And they should be taught one or two simple techniques while paired with a senior student. The particular techniques aren't important; the techniques should convey the foundations and principles of aikido (ie the relationship of paired weapons practice and empty handed techniques).

Former training (spend less time teaching ukemi with a former judoka or less time teaching striking with a karateka) and innate ability of students (some students are not very coordinated or the sharpest tools in the shed) will factor into when the teacher should proverbially throw them into the deep end.

Unfortunately a majority of aikido training will always be stuck with the cookie-cutter, one size fits all approach.

YoungIn Park