Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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[Demetrio Cereijo]

I have heard some Judo guys say that "Aikido is where old Judoka go to die" or something like that. Not that I share that sentiment but it is a commonly held concept in the Judo community.

This was, at least some years ago, one of the Aikido marketing tools to attract judoka who were past their prime.

[sakumeikan]

Though the average age in aikido class is a lot higher than it was in karate class (my guess is 40 versus 25), I'd say most of the student under 50 are quite fit (thanks to aikido training I'd say). Past 55 ageing seems to start affecting joints of some, sometimes from old injuries.

I don't see that an average age of 40 makes it an old man's art, in the sense that everyone is so fragile from old age that training has to be extra slow and careful (in fact I think the 16 year olds seem more fragile than the 40 year olds. Actually, also in karate class, I think the 35 to 50 year olds were the toughest)

For me there is one major disadvantage of starting late: because I started at 41, I may not be able to continue training for as many years as I hope to.

Dear Dave,
At 41 years of age you are a mere stripling. Hardly out of Aikido short pants.I have known many Aikidoka over the age of 60 /70 who would reduce younger stronger men to pulp [if they were required to do so ].Tamura/Chiba/ Sekiya /Kanetsuka /Tada Senseis were /are mature gents these men were /are more than capable of cutting the mustard if they had to.Peter Bacas Senseii was no spring chicken either.So just keep on training and before you know it you will be septugenarian, balding /obese aikido dinosaur.Cheers Joe.

[sakumeikan]

This was, at least some years ago, one of the Aikido marketing tools to attract judoka who were past their prime.
Dear Demetrio,
Sounds like an urban myth.Cheers, Joe.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Dear Demetrio,
Sounds like an urban myth.Cheers, Joe.

Hi Joe,

One example:

The seeds of Fugakukai Aikido were planted in 1967 when I received a mandate from Mr. Tomiki. This mandate was explicit and directed me to take the older retired judoka in the United States and introduce them to his method of Aikido.
http://mysite.verizon.net/jjbieler/articles/Origin%20of%20Fugakukai.html

[phitruong]

This was, at least some years ago, one of the Aikido marketing tools to attract judoka who were past their prime.

what you are saying that aikido is the dumping ground of other martial arts rejects? no wonder we have such bad reputation. we are a bunch of bad asses. :)

[graham christian]

Talk to people from other arts.

Have done many times. It's normal for people to see their art as best and thus put other arts down, what's new? The more aware hugher grades or teachers however respect other arts.

Thus the rule: Know who you are talking to. Otherwise you are merely searching for those who back up your own view.

Suffice to say that in my experience when it comes to hands on with those of other arts they leave with respect for Aikido. So it's not up to what 'others say' it's only up to what you do yourself.

You represent or you misrepresent. No more, no less.

Regards.G.

[observer]

Then Aikido is not Budo. It is not about fighting as a spiritual path, it is not Budo. The movements are not techniques they are just meditative forms so we can do away with technical gradings because how you do them is irrelevent, all that matters is your state of mind when you do them.
I'm not going to convince you, but your conclusion of what I wrote is absurd. Let me explain. In my opinion, Aikido is just a skill. Nothing else. First of all, you must evade attack. It's not easy to learn, but possible. Then, you make contact with an attacker with no hands tied. And finally is time to perform a technique. Everything "in a blink of an eye".

If you practice Aikido and haven't noticed yet that the purpose of all Aikido techniques is to hit the attacker's head to the ground, to break his neck, it's time to do it. Therefore, there is not so many (only twelve) techniques and not just only because of it. These techniques (throws) differ from others in a way how are performed. The most important thing, there is no need to break the opponent's balance to throw him. Just by straightening him up an rapidly putting down (heaven earth, ten chi) we are able to achieve the goal. We are getting help from the attacker hand's dynamic, or from pinning him, to cause his self straightening. No mistake - the purpose of the pin is not to cause a pain but only to show the way out to avoid injury. Of course, all these deadly throws can be practiced in a safe way thanks to the legacy of Jigoro Kano's Judo. It was noticed and used by Morichei Ueshiba in his art.

This is all very simple, unfortunately too simple to make money. That is why Aikido as we practice today doesn't make any sense. Pointless exercises on knees, playing with wooden sticks, grabbing each other, and performing Aikido techniques in a way that forces the partner to cooperate, otherwise it is impossible to do it.

[DH]

Aikido has the potential to be one of the worlds most powerful arts. Just not in the hands of the vast majority of people showing up in dojos everywhere who think they are doing aikido through their waza. They have no understanding of what it was and what it means to be doing the way of aiki.
Hence the never ending questions and doubts from within and without.

Dan

[Walter Martindale]

A few years ago when I was practicing in Cambridge, New Zealand, we were joined by a gentleman of about 6'8" height (or nearly about 203 cm tall). He worked as a prison guard.

We (I was shodan, Papu, the dojo sensei was at the time sandan) tried to be fairly gentle with him because he was quite stiff - and strong - but whenever we helped him with a new waza or unbalancing principle, or whatever, his thoughts were "this is devastating".

I haven't seen him for a while (left Cambridge in 09) but I understand he's much more relaxed and smooth. Someone with hands that seem as big as a baseball glove, relaxed and flowing? Ouch.
If he thought Aikido was as nasty as that, with his experience as a guard, there must be something in it.
Cheers,
W

[Michael Neal]

For most of us who do not have baseball glove sized hands we could use a lot of IS practice, I am looking forward to this new chapter in training. With all of the research done by Ellis and the experiences people are having with internal skills training, it seems this indeed is the missing element in modern Aikido. Along with (in my opinion) more training with realistic attacks and lots of randori.

Just like in most martial arts it is generally up to the practitioner to take his abilities to the next level by training things that may not be taught in typical class settings. That could be conditioning, strength training, internal skills, sparring with other martial artists, etc.

I don't think it is enough to try and gather all of your martial training in the standard class syllabus. None of the great martial artists were this limited in their training, they were always experiencing new things and exploring possibilities.

This is how Aikido can be taken to the level it should be at. And all the people who are looking for spirituality need to recognize that while that may be fine, Aikido is a martial art.

[markgunther]

I have used aikido techniques numerous times in the course of my work in a psych facility. They did work 100% of the time. Ikkyo, sankyu, kokyu nage ... In fact i think aikido techniques are the best (i.e. most appropriate) in this setting.

I cross train BJJ -- but I have not used it in real life ever. It would come in handy though in case i get toppled to the ground. I feel confident I will be able to survive on the ground. But will i ever find myself on the ground in my lifetime? Maybe never.

[Janet Rosen]

First of all, you must evade attack. It's not easy to learn, but possible.....The most important thing, there is no need to break the opponent's balance to throw him. Just by straightening him up an rapidly putting down (heaven earth, ten chi) we are able to achieve the goal

I would say that the aikido I strive to do, and that of many people I train with, does not rely on evading the attack but on accepting it, and that one does indeed need to disrupt the the opponent's balance (kuzushi) as the only alternative is to force things by pushing, pulling, etc.

[kewms]

The most important thing, there is no need to break the opponent's balance to throw him. Just by straightening him up an rapidly putting down (heaven earth, ten chi) we are able to achieve the goal.

I think there may be some confusion about terminology here... I defy you to throw anyone without breaking their balance. If they are standing in a balanced posture, center of mass over feet, spine aligned, etc., the only way you're going to throw them is if you're strong enough to physically pick them up and hurl them.

In the specific example of "straightening him up and rapidly putting him down," unless you also change his spinal alignment relative to gravity, you've just put him right back where he started.

Katherine

[Michael Neal]

yea you have to break the balance somehow, whether it be by using movement, muscle strength, or internal strength.

[Kevin Leavitt]

yea you have to break the balance somehow, whether it be by using movement, muscle strength, or internal strength.

I'll go even more specific than breaking balance which I personally think is too generic of a description. For example, lets talk about "side control" from a BJJ perspective. When you are controlling your opponent on the ground, you are not really able to break his balance, but you still need to constrain his movement.

It is all about the spine, if you control his STRUCTURE then you control your opponent. by controlling the head, hips, using your position, pressure etc, to disrupt his spine..then you can control him.

This, of course, is a mechanical process.

Looking at IS methods, it is not so much about "breaking balance" but controlling. You can uproot him, you can break his balance, you can control his core....many of these things can be done, IMO, without really being concerned with breaking his balance.

Hope this makes sense.

Oh...and NONE of this has to do with techniques...techniques are irrelevant once you can control him...you can do whatever you want and have fun with it since you have many options and the time to do what you want.

[observer]

To whom it may concern. Surprise, surprise. To throw somebody without braking his balance. Hmm ...

From the Interview with Henry Kono: ... Showing me another quote from Bob Nadeau’s article in Aikido Today Magazine, which says: “Once O-Sensei told me one day clearly and emphatically that the truth of aikido could be caught in a very short moment of time. "If you catch the secret," he said. "You can do what I do in three months."

[CitoMaramba]

"Not fighting? This is madness!!"

"Madness? No...
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419E2nJEeIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

(Cue Sparta remix!)

[Kevin Leavitt]

To add to the perspective. Provided that I am strong enough and uke is small enough...I can also simply pick uke up and chuck him across the room. No need to break balance to do this. Given enough "strength" there are many options that are available that do not require breaking balance.

[sakumeikan]

To add to the perspective. Provided that I am strong enough and uke is small enough...I can also simply pick uke up and chuck him across the room. No need to break balance to do this. Given enough "strength" there are many options that are available that do not require breaking balance.

Dear Kevin,
Why not turn up at the dojo with an armoured tank?This way you could mow down everyone in sight.
Cheers, Joe.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

yea you have to break the balance somehow, whether it be by using movement, muscle strength, or internal strength.

Or brainwashing your uke so they throw themselves.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dear Kevin,
Why not turn up at the dojo with an armoured tank?This way you could mow down everyone in sight.
Cheers, Joe.
Joe..not implying any sort of ethics into the discussion concerning the use of force. That is a different issue and discussion. Only pointing out that physically there are many ways in which to do things that do not involve breaking balance. That is all. I am all about using minimal force and controlling things in a very skillful manner.

[chillzATL]

To add to the perspective. Provided that I am strong enough and uke is small enough...I can also simply pick uke up and chuck him across the room. No need to break balance to do this. Given enough "strength" there are many options that are available that do not require breaking balance.

When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.

[genin]

When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.

At a certain point, you replaced uke's center with your own, and that's why you were able to throw him.

[Ketsan]

Have done many times. It's normal for people to see their art as best and thus put other arts down, what's new? The more aware hugher grades or teachers however respect other arts.

Thus the rule: Know who you are talking to. Otherwise you are merely searching for those who back up your own view.

Suffice to say that in my experience when it comes to hands on with those of other arts they leave with respect for Aikido. So it's not up to what 'others say' it's only up to what you do yourself.

You represent or you misrepresent. No more, no less.

Regards.G.

It's not a case of searching for people with my view, it's that Aikido needs to seach out people with other views and demonstrate otherwise. Thai boxing, BJJ, Wrestling don't have to advertise themselves, MMA competitions on TV do that for them. There are no questions as to to their effectiveness because MMA competitions address that.

Aikido on the other hand is low profile and the only contact most people have with it is youtube and it does not paint us in a good light. Our avoidence of competition paints us in a bad light. Even if it is for the best reasons we are martrying ourselves on our own altar.

The respect of a few more aware martial artists does not equate to attracting new, young, students.

[CitoMaramba]

"I used to do *insert art* and then I got injured and I wanted to take something else up and then I found Aikido" quite often.

Did they take an arrow to the knee?

[Belt_Up]

There are no questions as to to their effectiveness

This is a pretty big assumption on your part. No-one questions the effectiveness of MMA? In every martial arts discussion I've ever heard, on and off line, I've heard every martial art questioned. MMA is not beyond doubt because it's shown on the television.

Our avoidence of competition paints us in a bad light.

So we should begin competing because...other people think badly of us? I don't think badly of aikido and aikidoka because we don't compete. I didn't before I started aikido and my view hasn't changed. Like a lot of other threads, all I'm seeing are vast, sweeping generalisations, as if one person's opinions are shared by the majority when it's not necessarily so, and there's no proof. It's bizarre.

[Kevin Leavitt]

When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.

Yea good point actually. I guess I was actually focusing on a different body mechanic and confused the two issues. Thanks for correcting me!

[Ketsan]

This is a pretty big assumption on your part. No-one questions the effectiveness of MMA? In every martial arts discussion I've ever heard, on and off line, I've heard every martial art questioned. MMA is not beyond doubt because it's shown on the television.

So we should begin competing because...other people think badly of us? I don't think badly of aikido and aikidoka because we don't compete. I didn't before I started aikido and my view hasn't changed. Like a lot of other threads, all I'm seeing are vast, sweeping generalisations, as if one person's opinions are shared by the majority when it's not necessarily so, and there's no proof. It's bizarre.

Who cares about online discussion? What are we keyboard warriors or people teaching a martial art? How many professional Thai Boxing, MMA and BJJ instructors are there? How many professional Aikido instructors are there? There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding. Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.

Are we churning out 25 year old dan grades with organisations that are well financed and organised enough that they can open up branch gyms and are we popular enough that we can be fairly sure that they'll have a class to teach?

No. You know why? We're keyboard warrioring and talking the talk while they're winning competitions and showing that they can walk the walk. Joe Blogs is watching his TV and he's 17 and he wants to learn a martial art, he's not seeing Aikido. He's not all that interested in the chat on online forums, what he wants to see is people actually demonstrating that they can do things and we're not doing that.

Now if it was any other thing would you listen to the guy who sat in the corner talking about how good his art was an how it was for a higher purpose or would you go to the guy who can actually demonstrate that he can do what he says he can? Right. That's what Joe's thinking too so he heads past the local Aikido dojo in it's church hall, school hall, run down community or sports centre and into the shiney new MMA gym.

Even if we're winning the argument in cyber space we're getting raped in reality. People are voting with their feet and they're voting for the other people and that means our art is dying out.

[kewms]

When you picked him up and chucked him, you broke his balance. You may have done it in a very straight forward, brute force kind of way, but it's still the same thing. He didn't end up on the ground by accident.

Exactly.

Katherine

[kewms]

Who cares about online discussion? What are we keyboard warriors or people teaching a martial art? How many professional Thai Boxing, MMA and BJJ instructors are there? How many professional Aikido instructors are there? There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding. Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.

How "effective" is what's taught at a typical karate or TKD belt-mill McDojo? Those guys seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. Number of students has never had much correlation with the quality of what's being taught.

Katherine

[CNYMike]

Who cares about online discussion? What are we keyboard warriors or people teaching a martial art? ..... There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding. Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.

More like we're losing the marketing battle, and only because it's MMA's time. Since the 1950's, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, ninjitsu, Aikido when Steven Seagal made his first movies, and now MMA's have had their moments of popularity. Those moments fade leaving good schools behind. But it's not an easy business. Those shiney new MMA schools at prime locations have to pay for prime real estate and expensive equipment. The only ways to hope of breaking even are to have a kid's class and/or a pro shop.

In terms of numbers of students, TKD beats everybody even without a TV show on Spike. Think about that.


Are we churning out 25 year old dan grades with organisations that are well financed and organised enough that they can open up branch gyms and are we popular enough that we can be fairly sure that they'll have a class to teach?


The US Aikido Federation has been around for more than 40 years; there seem to be plenty of young-is people at the shodan gradings I've seen at seminars. I don't know how finacially helathy the organization is, but play with the dojo locator for laughs -- there seem to be a lot of them around.


No. You know why? We're keyboard warrioring and talking the talk while they're winning competitions and showing that they can walk the walk. Joe Blogs is watching his TV and he's 17 and he wants to learn a martial art, he's not seeing Aikido. He's not all that interested in the chat on online forums, what he wants to see is people actually demonstrating that they can do things and we're not doing that.

Now if it was any other thing would you listen to the guy who sat in the corner talking about how good his art was an how it was for a higher purpose or would you go to the guy who can actually demonstrate that he can do what he says he can? Right. That's what Joe's thinking too so he heads past the local Aikido dojo in it's church hall, school hall, run down community or sports centre and into the shiney new MMA gym.

And after a few years, will Joe stay with his MMA gym? Or will he read up on other MA's and look into other things, including Aikido? Could go either way. But I first found out about Aikido AFTER I started karate when I bought some coffee table books on MMA. We'd have to have a pretty low opinion of Joe Blogs to say he's a generic trogaldyte who will never do anything but MMA once he starts.


Even if we're winning the argument in cyber space we're getting raped in reality. People are voting with their feet and they're voting for the other people and that means our art is dying out.

The whos' taking all those 5th kyu tests? If not new people, then who? And if "young people" don't want to do Aikido, then who's joining colleg clubs? Old people with a lot of plastic surgery?

I think your reports of Aikido's death are greatly exaggerated.

[TOMAC]

A couple of points:
1. Aikidoka don't (should not) get into fights. In the unhappy situation that an aikidoka is attacked his chances of successfully defending him/her self is a lot higher than a person with no training.

2. In the event that an Aikidoka should find him/her self in a self defense situation the likelihood of using a core technique (i.e. shianagi, ikyo, etc.) is unimportant. It is the principles of aikido that will serve us under these circumstances. It's not important that an observer would say "hey, that's a nice karate kick." What's important is that you successfully defend yourself. It doesn't have to be pretty.

3. As to the popularity of MMA... So what? From what I've seen MMA is very hard on your body. Train and compete for a few years and then be relegated to an easy chair to look at your trophies. This is cool unless you need to defend yourself and then you are too beat up and arthritic to do anything.

[Don Nordin]

A couple of points:
1. Aikidoka don't (should not) get into fights. In the unhappy situation that an aikidoka is attacked his chances of successfully defending him/her self is a lot higher than a person with no training.

2. In the event that an Aikidoka should find him/her self in a self defense situation the likelihood of using a core technique (i.e. shianagi, ikyo, etc.) is unimportant. It is the principles of aikido that will serve us under these circumstances. It's not important that an observer would say "hey, that's a nice karate kick." What's important is that you successfully defend yourself. It doesn't have to be pretty.

3. As to the popularity of MMA... So what? From what I've seen MMA is very hard on your body. Train and compete for a few years and then be relegated to an easy chair to look at your trophies. This is cool unless you need to defend yourself and then you are too beat up and arthritic to do anything.

Tom,

thanks for that very concise summary. You said it really well.

[Kevin Leavitt]

A couple of points:
1. Aikidoka don't (should not) get into fights. In the unhappy situation that an aikidoka is attacked his chances of successfully defending him/her self is a lot higher than a person with no training.

2. In the event that an Aikidoka should find him/her self in a self defense situation the likelihood of using a core technique (i.e. shianagi, ikyo, etc.) is unimportant. It is the principles of aikido that will serve us under these circumstances. It's not important that an observer would say "hey, that's a nice karate kick." What's important is that you successfully defend yourself. It doesn't have to be pretty.

3. As to the popularity of MMA... So what? From what I've seen MMA is very hard on your body. Train and compete for a few years and then be relegated to an easy chair to look at your trophies. This is cool unless you need to defend yourself and then you are too beat up and arthritic to do anything.

I'm an aikidoka and my job is fighting bad guys. Police Officers have a job of fighting bad guys too. I disagree. the statement "aikidoka should not get into fights" is a categorical judgement statement. In fact, I'd argue that Aikidoka SHOULD get into fights given the correct circumstances. Engaging people that need to be engaged skillfully to stop bad things from happening is and should be our responsibility as budoka and warriors.

The chances of defending yourself successfully and minimizing damage depends on many factors. Training is one factor for sure, however define "training"? Even with all my years of training I have a real concern and worry about the common street thug with little or no "training". Again a categorical statement which may or may not be true depending on the situation and conditions.

On your #2 point. I would agree for the most part on this one for sure. Actual technique is not improtant. Although, principles don't help you much either. The problem with principles is they are a mental process. What you need is something physical such as a basic structure and fight habits that have been ingrained through realistic training. Without this, you can have all the principle centered training in the world and still not be able to fight. There are many (most) aikidoka that can demonstrate the fundamentals and principles of aikido and budo than me....however, for many, I am not really concerned or question my ability to defeat them in a fight. So, I disagree with your statement concerning the paradigm of principles and typically viewed in aikido. Fighting has more to do with overriding and overwhelming violent action, and very little to do with the understanding of principles. Hence why I am really concerned with the 16 year old street thug that can't demonstrate jack or understand principles but has grown up understanding fighting.

Also disagee with your statement on MMA being hard on your body. My assumption is that you are saying that MMA is hard on your body and Aikido is not. Again, a categorical statement that may be true depending on your training regime, but does not have to be. Frankly, I find that much of what we tend to call aikido is very hard on your body, whereas practiced correctly, MMA training may not be depending on your training and the skill level of your instructor.

A more correct statement would be getting thrown and tossed is hard on your body, regardless of the particular art or methodology you train in. I personally had to stop Judo as it was VERY hard on my body as it typically involves throws, however MMA skills such as striking, kicks, clinch work, and ground grappling, minus the throws are not hard on your body at all. As Aikido typically involves taking your opponent from a standing position to a ground position, I'd actually say in many cases it is actually more hard on your body than most MMA training.

Sorry to be so disagreeable on the subject.

[TOMAC]

"Sorry to be so disagreeable on the subject." Kevin Leavitt
Kevin,
No problem. Your perspective is so very different from mine. Very interesting but very different.

Tom

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks Tom. there are many different perspectives for sure.

[CNYMike]

Jun, I hate to ask this after all the recent troubles, but is their BB software that highlights the year in very big type? Maybe this thread wouldn't keep rising from the dead if people knew how old it was. (That's how I go snagged.)

[mathewjgano]

Jun, I hate to ask this after all the recent troubles, but is their BB software that highlights the year in very big type? Maybe this thread wouldn't keep rising from the dead if people knew how old it was. (That's how I go snagged.)
I wonder how much of the dislike for this thread has to do with the history of the tone rather than how old it is or the topic covered. I think the effectiveness issue is a valid one, if not an important one.
I had a roomate who enjoyed being a @#$%. After a while even his valid arguments got eclipsed by his "other" behavior. I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because that bathwater is full of...unpleasantness.
However, now that I think about it, I do wonder if the archive were to be organized somewhat by topic and was similar to an FAQ (perhaps: Frequently Asserted Quarrels), if that might also lead some of the redundancy "unpleasant" threads like this generate into a more productive avenue.

[CNYMike]

I wonder how much of the dislike for this thread has to do with the history of the tone rather than how old it is or the topic covered .....

I think it's mainly the fact that the thread is really, really old.

[tarik]

I think it's mainly the fact that the thread is really, really old.

The most recent posts are not. ;)

In 25+ years of Internet forum browsing and posting, I never understood why people get their panties in a bunch about old threads coming alive and being discussed further. Life is constantly re-hashing many of the same 'tired' old ideas. My blunt answer is usually something along the lines of 'get over it'.

Certainly people posting their comments should make some attempt to 'catch up' on how much is already said, but that's their own lookout.

Best,

[Belt_Up]

Who cares about online discussion?

Er, you do, you're participating in one. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. Also this seems like an attempt at denigrating online discussion, which is particularly rich when posted online, on a martial arts site.

How many professional Thai Boxing, MMA and BJJ instructors are there?

I have no idea. Do you? Care to produce any facts?

How many professional Aikido instructors are there?

Same again. Do you know? Do you have any proof?

There are MMA gym opening up in prime locations with loads of very expensive equipment. They have money to throw around, they have more students than they know what to do with and they're expanding.

Again, facts? Surely you have growth figures, or is this another one of your beliefs? Which, incidentally, prove nothing. The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Additional food for thought: all this financial success must come from somewhere, and logic suggests it is the average practitioner paying fees. If you have gyms opening up in prime locations with lots of expensive equipment, this costs a lot more than renting a hall and some mats, so the average practitioner is paying more. To what extent does this prevent people from participating? Of course, you don't know.

Can we say the same about Aikido? Kinda suggests we're losing the effectiveness argument pretty badly.

So MMA's financial success means that aikido is not an effective martial art? This simply does not make any sense. Effectiveness is not decided by who brings the most money in.

Are we churning out 25 year old dan grades with organisations that are well financed and organised enough that they can open up branch gyms and are we popular enough that we can be fairly sure that they'll have a class to teach?

No facts to support your belief, again.

they're winning competitions and showing that they can walk the walk.

Perhaps one day you will think of 'walking the walk' as something more than winning and money.

Joe Blogs is watching his TV and he's 17 and he wants to learn a martial art, he's not seeing Aikido.

No, he's seeing boxing, TKD, UFC, etc because they have competitions. We don't (with the exception of the Tomiki aikido). That's all.

what he wants to see is people actually demonstrating that they can do things and we're not doing that.

We do demonstrate that we can do things. The difference is, we do it in the dojo, rather than essentially whoring ourselves in front of cameras for money.

Now if it was any other thing would you listen to the guy who sat in the corner talking about how good his art was an how it was for a higher purpose or would you go to the guy who can actually demonstrate that he can do what he says he can?

And aikidoka can't do what they say they can, according to...you.

Right. That's what Joe's thinking too so he heads past the local Aikido dojo in it's church hall, school hall, run down community or sports centre

I like how being part of the local community, using a communal building or space, is somehow bad. It's inferior to having your own expensive dedicated place.

Even if we're winning the argument in cyber space we're getting raped in reality. People are voting with their feet and they're voting for the other people and that means our art is dying out.

Disgusting and inappropriate metaphors aside, do you have any facts to back this up?

[lbb]

In 25+ years of Internet forum browsing and posting, I never understood why people get their panties in a bunch about old threads coming alive and being discussed further.

When you respond to something that someone said ten years ago, you're not communicating, you're pontificating.

[tarik]

When you respond to something that someone said ten years ago, you're not communicating, you're pontificating.

So what? Is not pontificating a form of communication? Certainly it is the norm around here, so why should it be different on an old thread vs. a new one?

Besides which, that is entirely subjective. Take each post on it's own merits and in context.

Best,

[Cyril Landise]

Does jumping rope work in the boxing ring?
If not, then why do boxers do it?
Aikido is a training method.
What you do with the results of your training is your business...and your effectiveness is dependent on many, many other factors besides the training system followed.
My guess is that Aikido training would help most MMA fighters to become better at what they do.
I am better than I was at a lot of things (including fighting) because of my Aikido training.
Personal best is a different kind of winning.

[Janet Rosen]

When you respond to something that someone said ten years ago, you're not communicating, you're pontificating.

I think it's a bizarre waste of time and energy to open an old thread in order to post a direct reply to a poster who by date joined and number of posts clearly stopped participating in the forum years ago.

However if a new conversation is sparked (as opposed to continuing to advise a ghost) it's certainly of interest to folks.

[graham christian]

Not the poster, the topic.

Shows the topic is always the most interesting, the most asked question.

Anyone with new thoughts on this topic therefore uses this platform.

Sounds sensible to me.

Regards. G.

[ToddDJones]

As a former national sport karate champion, I can assure you that aikido has practical applicability in the ring; I've used its principles in every match since 1977. You have to move beyond the kata-waza of everyday practice though; kata only communicates fundamental concepts. Application requires sponteneity and and adaptation. The art does not fail the adherent. The adherent fails to adapt the art; a Darwinian notion to be sure.

Don't give up! Frustration is the fertlizer for learning. Good luck!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Does jumping rope work in the boxing ring?
If not, then why do boxers do it?
Aikido is a training method.
What you do with the results of your training is your business...and your effectiveness is dependent on many, many other factors besides the training system followed.
My guess is that Aikido training would help most MMA fighters to become better at what they do.
I am better than I was at a lot of things (including fighting) because of my Aikido training.
Personal best is a different kind of winning.

Cyril,

You bring up some very good points and your logic, of course is correct. Sure, jumping rope, lifting weights, running, and even Aikido training methods certainly have application, relevance, and can help with any number of things.

What it really boils down too when you start looking at specific applications, tactics, sports etc, is this one questions: What is the best use of my time to get the maximum amount of benefit to accomplish my goals.

There are so many variables that come into the equation when training. It becomes about priorities, experiences, and availability of assets such as time, equipment, instructors....etc.

So, for example, while I train in aikido and have for the last 15 years or so, AND I find the training very applicable to what I do in the Military, when preparing units and soldiers to go into combat or high risk situations, I have NEVER taught them what would be called "aikido". However, the principles are ingrained in everyday movement and everything I do, so it has definitely made me a better instructor and influences all that I do.

So, yes, i agree with your statement above for sure.

The problem arises really when we have very limited experience or exposure to training, coaching, and/or martial paradigms, methods, and systems. Those that are professionals, coaches, or have recieved training as "elite" athletes understand how things work in the real world and understand that you don't fight, jump, shoot baskets, kick balls with training methodologies. You use them to improve your ability to perform the task, functions required of you for your job or sport.

Aikido certainly can play a part in that process!

[Kevin Leavitt]

I think it's a bizarre waste of time and energy to open an old thread in order to post a direct reply to a poster who by date joined and number of posts clearly stopped participating in the forum years ago.

However if a new conversation is sparked (as opposed to continuing to advise a ghost) it's certainly of interest to folks.

I was the 1000th poster and I simply want to be the 2000th poster. That is all.

[Cyril Landise]

The art does not fail the adherent. The adherent fails... the art.

Nice quote Todd, well said.

[graham christian]

I suggest a prize for the 2000th, how about it Jun?

[roadtoad]

I would say aikido needs to be upgraded, the sword strike that is called shomenuchi, is a joke. It may have had some use in the 19th century, but not since.
In a private inrterview with me, o'sensei said, 'the most important thing is to win, then, you try your best to use the arts of non resistence on your opponent'.
I've been in about 25 street fights since I was a black belt in aikido. Sometimes I used aikido techniques, sometimes I used techniques from other styles.
My belief is that now, aikido is all 'in the culture'. An instructor can put you down as long as you do exactly what he tells you to.
Now, it seems to me, that the only street fighter an aikidoka could overcome, would be someone he could beat anyway, with little, or no training.
I believe thart o'sensei would have liked to see aikido people winning UFC..
O'sensei was upgrading aikido techniques until the day he died.
I believe that modern instructors should start learning and teaching how to counter boxers, karateka, taekwondo, muy thai, and all the rest.
As it is now, sword strrike is the joke of all martial arts.

[dalen7]

I would say aikido needs to be upgraded, the sword strike that is called shomenuchi, is a joke.
I believe thart o'sensei would have liked to see aikido people winning UFC..
O'sensei was upgrading aikido techniques until the day he died.
I believe that modern instructors should start learning and teaching how to counter boxers, karateka, taekwondo, muy thai, and all the rest.
As it is now, sword strrike is the joke of all martial arts.

Dunno... its a mixed bag and like hobbiton some things change slowly - if at all.

First I agree that if anyone wants to know a self defense course or art to use in sport they should choose BJJ mixed with Thai Boxing and Judo.
For the above, as Aikido is currently taught, it is pretty much useless unless someone goes in the flows they have learned over the years.

Though... the principle can allow some to perhaps get in Kotegaishi or Rokkyo. [Though Ive seen the Gracie Bros use Rokkyo as well as Roy Dean I believe, though maybe with a different name.]

This goes to point out the fact that Aikido came from the same art as BJJ - Japanese Jiu Jitsu.
Judo back in the days had a pretty mean ground game, but for sure I dont think of that for todays Judo - what Judo I see, and admittedly its not much, its seems someone wins just by a lucky throw to the ground and it stops.

I have been in a couple fights, regrettably, in the past.
Had I studied Eckhart Tolle more and 'danced' around some egos - including mine - it could have been avoided.

Though had I known BJJ and did a proper choke when I had the dude in the headlock it would have ended more peacefully than me kicking him in the face after he threw me on the ground and then popping up to hit him in the nose and blood starting to flow... thus ending this particular fight.
Probably would have had him positioned in some Aikido finishing move as I heard some people wake up from chokes back in fight mode.

Point is there are some relative moves in Aikio, but as you pointed out Shomenuchi is locked in for demo purposes only and with Jodan Tsuki being irrelevant as punches.
[Cant tell you the number of people who feel great, including myself, after nice counters to Tsuki and then I have to remind myself that the kickboxing instructor down the road and any of his guys I could not pull one move on - and even got my lights knocked out for doing silly Aikido posture... but hey, I tried it out.]

caveat: For those who would read the above and say that a 3rd kyu is too early to try out against others, I would disagree... [keep in mind for my 3rd kyu I had already learned Koshinage, etc. which many do not do until 1st kyu]... I already had worked with higher level kyus who I had to gently show them that their stuff did not work, not verbally, but every now and again making it look like they discovered it for themselves. [Lots of ego involved when time is in the mind... Im more forward about this stuff though now that I have come back to train and people are seeing that their, and my, game needs to step up as your brain can stop thinking of realistic scenarios of noncompliance and you believe what your doing is working. [as a side note, I would have been getting my shodan this year if I didnt take the two year break, but I will say I didnt miss much... my goal is to integrate Aikido with BJJ and to figure out the kinks in the system which you cant do if your not willing to 'test' it and forget egos. :)

So, yes Shomenuchi, Tsuki Jodan, etc. are a 'joke' in a sense - but at the same time you can learn a lot about the principles behind things and for what Aikido currently does, the flow, its nice to watch.

As far as O Sensei... highly doubt he would want his stuff in MMA/UFC.
If he did he would not have gotten rid of ground and kept more than Koshinage, kubinage, etc. as the Judo type throws.

When I watch videos I see people falling for him. Much like how Helio Gracie had his son pick him up gently and put him down. Of course, he was freakn old... it would not only have been disrespect to floor the old man, but caused him serious injury. But there are many, perhaps including himself, who become a bit delusional and believe his ki, or whatever, put all the young whipper snappers on the ground.

Without stamina, strength, flexibility, etc., your not going to be like Eddie Bravo over 40 able to move around the way he does.
The idea you can be out of shape, even overweight, and extend your ki to take people down is just not true. If one believes it is, and my 3rd kyu experience was not enough, then may the dans take it out and try it - put it on youtube so we can see this work.

Every person has a path... and the fact is until people take this into a live situation for themselves, how will they know? you can theorize all day, you can say your not high enough to try it out - but by the time you get your black belt so much time went into a system that is how I just pointed out, that ones ego doesnt want to see that they may be wrong.

And its not about wrong... that is the 'wrong' view point, its just not working in certain situations.
The fact is mixing Aikido would step up everyones Aikido even if they did not make BJJ a career.
And BJJ is a gentle art like Aikido... unless you dont tap of course, and then you'll see something similar to what happened to Tate when R. Rousey made her elbow go in a completely different direction. [Big ego, big fall.]

Peace

Dalen

[roadtoad]

I'm practically the only guy around here that has spoken to o'sensei personally. I take my beliefs from that experience. I really believe that o'sensei actually believed exactly what I said. In the sixtys, boxing and wrestling were sports, so o'sensei didn't classify them as martial arts. Now, under ufc, etc.
boxing and wrestling define martial arts.
Also, I saw more combat in Vietnam than 99% of all marines and special forces, even though I was air force. I am one of the few aikidoka since Tohei to actually take aikido into the war zone.
My clairvoyance was highly elevated by that time. Often, I would know as much as three days in advance, how I was going to be attacked, what side, what weapon, etc. and I would know way in advance what technique I should use.
People who have actually been in fire fights will know what I mean.
The only time I ever used aikido in a fight was when I found myself in an exact position that I had learned in aikido class. You can only do what you have trained in.
The rest of the time I did the Bruce Lee thing, i.e., always attack first, get the position on him, use techniques that you know the opponent doesn't know, etc.

[jackie adams]

Wow, what a ridiculously long discussion, amazing. A unbelievable debate, what does it tell us about our perceptions that make up our paradigms about martial arts. A revealing debate, indeed, into the expectations associated inside and outside Aikido. All this having an importance to me as I start up my own school. What philosophy do I project as a leader, a teacher, a practitioner?

The marketing angle of my school, will be provincial to the original Aikido, and non-provincial to being a competitive fighting art. People's perceptions and misperceptions effect their expectations and their preconceptions. Choosing the right message to send to the public about my school now seems even more important after surveying this debate.

I don't want to send the message of violence. Aikido's true paradigm is not the same as competitive fighting martial arts. Not having the necessary benchmark parts, Aikido struggles in conforming to that arena. Knowing Aikido is doomed to failure in a competition venues as it lacks the need tailoring to fit, why push it. Don't stick a round peg in a square hole. I don't want my school to fail based on a falsehood that it could compete and come out on top in specifically designed fighting venues. That is just crazy.

I want a broader message that appeals to more people, a wider range of student both in age and interest. To accomplish that my messages can't be specific as fighting, or too broad where the focus is lost. I am looking for general public appealing based on a simple idea everyone can personally relate, something broad enough it can touch a broad base of potential students. A fighting message is too specific only appealing to a small demographic pulled by an over saturated market.

Aikido offers an alternative to the long held perception martial arts offers a Holy Grail -martial arts will make you some type of unrealistic badass who can't be defeated. Joining my Aikido class sends a message to the public when you join Aikido, it is an enjoyable recreational activity for people to enjoy and learn something about themselves. It is not about proving ones self through violence. I want people to expand their experiences in their lives in a broader way through Aikido. I want them to walk though the dojo door knowing they have nothing to prove to anyone. There is no need to prove Aikido's worthiness in a fight.

My philosophy is no illusions, absent of false promises about Aikido can and can't do. When joining my school will not be about how to become a badass undefeatable fighter. My school offers an experience that if called upon can be a means of self-defense under the right conditions and circumstance. No fighter or non-fighter kool aid here. Why put doubt into the heads of my students,or pipe dreams of what they are doing. I don't want them to be caught up in a debate like this one trying to prove something. No reason for them to be caught in a trap of doubt, lacking confidence about Aikido. I want them to shape their own reality.

*Undefeatable, a word for some reason not acceptable to the snooty lexicons; usage as slang).

[graham christian]

I'm wondering, why is shomen seen as a 'joke' ?

Peace.G.

[mathewjgano]

I'm wondering, why is shomen seen as a 'joke' ?

Peace.G.

Pick your poison, but I'm guessing it's because people think it's supposed to replace a tsuki/atemi.

[dalen7]

I'm wondering, why is shomen seen as a 'joke' ?

Peace.G.

No joke... it really all is depending on perspective, or environment.
Its only a joke if someone were to assume that they could use it in Thai Boxing, etc.

Which I do not believe anyone has suggested...
However it was suggested, for those interested, to add to the arsenal so that people will know how to counter strikes, etc. from a more realistic standpoint. [As it can, even amongst the best, have the concept sneak in that somehow it would be affective.]

Sorry, should have perhaps been clearer - love Shomen. :)

Peace

Dalen

[dalen7]

Pick your poison, but I'm guessing it's because people think it's supposed to replace a tsuki/atemi.

Tsuki/atemi...
dunno, would say a love hate relation.

Fine for movement, etc. - but the way it is practiced typically will leave most people on the floor of any boxing ring. Im not saying its impossible, Im guessing Rokkyo may potentially be pulled off - but even then the strikes in Aikido are nothing like in boxing.

I see too many people, [ranking], who appear to believe that their Tsuki is awesome - until a gentle reminder comes up with a typical jab, etc. which is too fast. [of course no real hit in Aikido, but its fast enough to make the point.]

There are all kind of simulated strikes and entries, which I personally dont like only in that if the person were really hit the whole body would not stay in the postion it is in to finish the move how it is done.

More than likely you would transition to a ground move once someone is hit, etc.

Again, not useless - but within a wider picture, from my experience, it can be misleading.

Peace

Dalen

[graham christian]

No joke... it really all is depending on perspective, or environment.
Its only a joke if someone were to assume that they could use it in Thai Boxing, etc.

Which I do not believe anyone has suggested...
However it was suggested, for those interested, to add to the arsenal so that people will know how to counter strikes, etc. from a more realistic standpoint. [As it can, even amongst the best, have the concept sneak in that somehow it would be affective.]

Sorry, should have perhaps been clearer - love Shomen. :)

Peace

Dalen

Thanks for the reply. Yes I see and agree that it represents handling strikes and therefore anyone hitting down towards your head with a piece of something be it bottle or wood or whatever is the same motion, the one you get used to handling when handling shomen.

However, on the other side of the coin I do wonder sometimes why someone hasn't used an effective one in Thai Boxing etc. I'm serious. I conclude not many therefore understand just how powerful a shomen is or rather can be, in expert hands. Maybe this is the reason it is actually not allowed in most combat sports, the fact that it can be too dangerous.

Talking to a boxer once and the history of boxing, him also being now a practitioner of Aikido, he told me how the hammer blow to the head, the straight down blow (along the shomen line) was banned for being too dangerous.

Worth thinking about...

Peace.G.

[lars beyer]

I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

The reason there is less emphasis on strikes in Aikido is that it´s not good to focus too much on the strikes when you start learning Aikido.
It´s true that we don´t prepare people to fight in Aikido like people are prepared to fight in boxing and Muay Thai, because the essence of Aikido is non resistance, but that doesn´t mean that we are unprepared.
It´s clear that Aikido and MMA are taught in very different ways and for many the reason for training Aikido is not competition but selfdefence and personal development.
The number of available aikido techniques are overwhelming and it takes a long, long time understanding and mastering Aikido on a deeper level.

It is both faster and easier to learn MMA compared to Aikido, if you look at it from a cost benefit perspective,
you will be able to use your skills faster doing MMA.
For me, being in my forties it wouldn´t make sence to do MMA because I don´t have the physical strength and flexibility I had when I was 22 but that is not a problem in Aikido.
I can practise Aikido to the day I die and I can still defend myself if needed and get myself out of harms way. Aikido is truly a wonderfull Martial Art with many, many possible applications.

So my answer to your thread: Aikido is very usefull in selfdefence and I have used it personally in many ways in everyday life and conflict.

Peace

[dalen7]

Talking to a boxer once and the history of boxing, him also being now a practitioner of Aikido, he told me how the hammer blow to the head, the straight down blow (along the shomen line) was banned for being too dangerous.

Worth thinking about...

Peace.G.

I had the unfortunate circumstance as a kid at camp to have some tall dude, that wasn't quite there it would seem from his action, come out of know where and nail me in the head with his elbow.
[He said something about doing a 'soup bone" jumped up and bam... wasnt even fighting, he just thought he had a clever idea]

Anyway, yes coming down straight on top of the head can be devastating or feel that way for sure.
I know I never want that experience repeated.

As for boxing, take a look at Thai boxing where you can use elbows, etc. and Im not convinced anyone would get close enough in a match to do a 'shomen' without opening their face up for some bad strikes.

Again, I know the people I have seen in person and via video, definitely would not pull it off with the 'shomen' they show.
But then again I was always under the assumption that shomen was more about coming from the weapons aspect of Aikido - perhaps Peter G. can address this as he is like a historical Aikido encyclopedia.:)

So if this is true Shomen was really just practicing going against weapons without weapons... not as a move to take out someone. [Again, many know the history better than I do, and from observation I would think this is the case.]

Back in the UFC 1 I would think someone would have tried this as it seems they were doing everything else... Even today its still a bit rough as you have peoples arms braking and arms dislocated, ie. Strikeforce. [Forgot the guy not to long ago who had his upper arm snap from one of the locks.]

At the end of the day its all good... as long as people have fun and are enjoying life thats really the point. :)

Peace

Dalen

[dalen7]

For me, being in my forties it wouldn´t make sence to do MMA because I don´t have the physical strength and flexibility I had when I was 22 but that is not a problem in Aikido.
I can practise Aikido to the day I die and I can still defend myself if needed and get myself out of harms way. Aikido is truly a wonderfull Martial Art with many, many possible applications.

Peace

Isnt that the truth! Funny the age you picked out as 22 is when I stopped counting birthdays! ;)

Anyway, for sure after 40 it can be rough getting into Thai Boxing, etc.
Im knocking around 40s door and can say that my body doesnt like more than half the stuff that would not have bothered it before. :)

For me its a game of getting back my flexibility and maintaining it.
[Im convinced Yoga should be a long term part of my game, I like the Eddie Bravo philosophy. He is over 40 and moves better than I did when I was younger.] ;)

Also I just started doing the Gracie Bullyproof program with the kids. [Their jiu-jitsu for kids between 4-14] And have to say everyone is enjoying it.

I would love to go through their blue belt program. They are wonderful teachers and BJJ seems to be something, like Aikido, you can do until you die. [Some people on the forum here who are in their 40s+ practicing BJJ can probably testify to this.]

The attraction to Aikido for people 40+ is rather obvious though for me I will be mixing BJJ and Aikido, and continue to try to make my Aikido more live like BJJ. [Not just resisting, but getting the game where it is more like a puzzle/chess match - may not be totally the same as in BJJ... but that is the goal.

If I can get my stamina back up I would take up Thai Boxing again - stopped a couple years back, just wasnt into having my legs continually kicked. [Bigger guys right leg against my weaker leg... wasnt that pleasant] :)

Mainly for Cardio the above though... the idea of hitting people for sport, though something that was closer to me than Aikido and jiujitsu years back is something left for my youth. lol!

Anyway... its all good, nice to play around with the stuff and see what you can do with it.

Peace

Dalen

[graham christian]

Hi Dalen. I agree with the last line that's for sure.

Yes, shomen is from the sword so is based on that cut or line of attack.

The point of combat sports that differenciates them from martial arts I think can be seen by finding out what they are not allowed to do. In fact anything too dangerous is not allowed. Thus I never personally compare the two or see much comparison, even if some do want to call themselves a martial art. Maybe martial sport would be the better term although I'll stick with combat sport.

As Aikido is 99% about harmonious motion then it's good I find to point out that emphasis to students and thus what they 'could' do from that attained new position. From virtually every atemi you 'could' if you so wish turn that into a tegatana strike which would thus be a cut through the head. It's not part of the curriculum or indeed the intent in standard Aikido practice but the wise can see what can be done from such harmonious motion if needs be.

It's all good.

Peace.G.

[lbb]

IT'S BACK!!! And just in time for spring, thanks all, the garden needs a load of manure and this thread sure can provide it. And as we all know, it's better if you mix in a little fresh with the well aged...yes, the very well aged, very very very very...

[Demetrio Cereijo]

"Grandmaster of Turkish Submission Wrestling and head of the Marital Kinetics Academy, Levent Altunbas, is unexpectedly challenged to a match when he visited the largest Aikido dojo in Vietnam. His opponent is a 4th Dan in Aikido and a champion fighter."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE

:D

[robin_jet_alt]

"Grandmaster of Turkish Submission Wrestling and head of the Marital Kinetics Academy, Levent Altunbas, is unexpectedly challenged to a match when he visited the largest Aikido dojo in Vietnam. His opponent is a 4th Dan in Aikido and a champion fighter."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE

:D

Marital kinetics? sounds dirty :P

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Marital kinetics? sounds dirty :P

You don't want to know what a turkish wrestler is capable of. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7wdfsw0zScg/TCrUttoEJqI/AAAAAAAAA2M/P3FSiPtg-F0/s1600/The+Kirkpinar+Oil+Wrestling+Festival+-+Turkey+(2).jpg)

[gregstec]

IT'S BACK!!! And just in time for spring, thanks all, the garden needs a load of manure and this thread sure can provide it. And as we all know, it's better if you mix in a little fresh with the well aged...yes, the very well aged, very very very very...

Well the thread title is immortal, so why not let some of the newbs have some fun with it as well :)

[Garth]

Newb
right here!!!!
Do they not teach atemi in Vietnam Aikido?
Moving backwards with no plan is a fault and I am called on it ,... often.
Kaiten , tenkan, one step back maybe, but if my intention is to move back with nothing else, you run out of mat or room pretty fast.
And as Ellis Amdur says in his book, "no tenkan without irimi".
Same donut different day

[gregstec]

Newb
right here!!!!
Do they not teach atemi in Vietnam Aikido?
Moving backwards with no plan is a fault and I am called on it ,... often.
Kaiten , tenkan, one step back maybe, but if my intention is to move back with nothing else, you run out of mat or room pretty fast.
And as Ellis Amdur says in his book, "no tenkan without irimi".
Same donut different day

That doughnut must be getting real hard by now - best to eat it and then get a new one :)
ps: - never move back...

Greg

[roadtoad]

you're misreading me. I took chinese styles in Cholong, I only practiced aikido alone in vietnam. I was still stationed in japan, and later, the philippines, and I was only on temporary duty to vietnam.
So, what they practiced and didn't practice in Vietnam Aikido, in the sixtys, I wouldn't know.

[Garth]

That doughnut must be getting real hard by now - best to eat it and then get a new one :)
ps: - never move back...

Greg

Point well taken about the back move.
Of course on the subject of donuts , I do what you suggest. :D :D But these types of threads Are what I meant ... Stale :crazy:

[gregstec]

Point well taken about the back move.
Of course on the subject of donuts , I do what you suggest. :D :D But these types of threads Are what I meant ... Stale :crazy:

Ah, stale is in the taste of the beholder - what goes around, comes around - what was once stale, can now be fresh :)

Greg

[Garth]

Ah, stale is in the taste of the beholder - what goes around, comes around - what was once stale, can now be fresh :)

Greg

I like the hole / whole donut position
Ponder the duality of the two holes/ wholes.:freaky:

[Ketsan]

You don't want to know what a turkish wrestler is capable of. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7wdfsw0zScg/TCrUttoEJqI/AAAAAAAAA2M/P3FSiPtg-F0/s1600/The+Kirkpinar+Oil+Wrestling+Festival+-+Turkey+(2).jpg)

I like videos like this and seeing this kind of situation. It always makes me ask, "Is that what you do in training?"

[Kevin Leavitt]

or how he spends his time searching on the internet

[roadtoad]

Graham, would you like to get in the ring with manny pacquaio, and throw a couple of sword strikes( a.k.a. shomenuchi)at him? You think you could take him out with sword strikes?
If you know anything in any martial art that is more of a joke than sword strike, please let me know what it is.

[lars beyer]

The attraction to Aikido for people 40+ is rather obvious though for me I will be mixing BJJ and Aikido, and continue to try to make my Aikido more live like BJJ. [Not just resisting, but getting the game where it is more like a puzzle/chess match - may not be totally the same as in BJJ... but that is the goal.
..

Thanks, Aikido takes a long time to learn.. I wonder if I will ever be able to go through the whole curriculum..
I also find weapons techniques very interresting.. thinking about practising shuriken :D and if possible.. Katori Shinto Ryu..
there is a dojo close to where I live where they practise that every saturday..
As for cardio training I allways leave 1 minut too late so I have to run to catch the bus.. huff puff..

I believe some people put too much emphasis on whether Aikido is usefull in a real fight..
The problem with a real fight is that you don´t know what it looks like before it´s over..
The few times I have used Aikido in a real fight it served me well, because it enabled me to
finish the fight before it even started. Like letting air out of a balloon.. and the best thing
about it is the look on the other persons face, complete disappointment and disbelief
that he didn´t manage to get me in a fight and that his initial buildup of aggression amounts to absolutely
nothing.. it´s like defusing a grenade and using it as a doorstopper.
It´s great fun and very rewarding.. But for many people not very heroic..:)

Peace
Lars

[dalen7]

This debate can go on forever as one poster pointed out - which is fine, but...

"If you want to learn to swim jump into the water. On dry land no frame of mind is ever going to help you." ~Bruce Lee

Below is a quote from Roy Dean that summarizes things nicely:
[A black belt in both Aikido, Judo, and BJJ]

Perhaps his prominence and 'marked' achievements will give more weight to this than what a 'stranger' in Hungary has tried to say. ;)

Below Quote comes from:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2011/05/dvd-review-white-belt-bible-roy-dean.html

"I generally take issue with the aikido I’ve learned, seen, and come in contact with being advertised as self-defense. Although there are aspects and techniques of aikido that I believe can be gleaned and added to your martial arsenal (i.e. footwork for getting off the line, blending with an overcommitted attack, etc.), I could never recommend it to somebody who wanted to learn self-defense. Not only is there too much silence about what works and what doesn’t, the non-competitive training method doesn’t put students in pressure situations similar enough to real confrontations, breeding a false sense of security in students through tacit affirmations such as:

1) It may take 20 years, but this stuff will work if you just keep practicing.

2) Don’t worry about strength, since physical conditioning isn’t that important.

3) These exercises we’re doing are how attacks really are.

4) If it’s not working, you’re not using your center.

5) Keep extending that ki to keep him at bay!

It’s not fair to your students to misrepresent what your art is capable of. If your average aikido student rolled with a judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu player, or got in the ring with a boxer or kickboxer, he wouldn’t know what to do with that kind of intensity. He’d simply be overwhelmed. I’ve seen this point debated through letters to the editor in Aikido Today Magazine, but there’s only one way to find out. Do it. To paraphrase Bruce Lee, you can’t learn to swim unless you get wet, so how can you learn how to fight without fighting?" - Roy Dean

[dalen7]

..
Like letting air out of a balloon.. and the best thing
about it is the look on the other persons face, complete disappointment and disbelief
that he didn´t manage to get me in a fight and that his initial buildup of aggression amounts to absolutely
nothing.. it´s like defusing a grenade and using it as a doorstopper.
It´s great fun and very rewarding.

Peace
Lars

100% agree with the above quote... :)

Peace

Dalen

[lars beyer]

This debate can go on forever as one poster pointed out - which is fine, but...

"If you want to learn to swim jump into the water. On dry land no frame of mind is ever going to help you." ~Bruce Lee

Below is a quote from Roy Dean that summarizes things nicely:
[A black belt in both Aikido, Judo, and BJJ]

Perhaps his prominence and 'marked' achievements will give more weight to this than what a 'stranger' in Hungary has tried to say. ;)

Below Quote comes from:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2011/05/dvd-review-white-belt-bible-roy-dean.html

"I generally take issue with the aikido I’ve learned, seen, and come in contact with being advertised as self-defense. Although there are aspects and techniques of aikido that I believe can be gleaned and added to your martial arsenal (i.e. footwork for getting off the line, blending with an overcommitted attack, etc.), I could never recommend it to somebody who wanted to learn self-defense. Not only is there too much silence about what works and what doesn’t, the non-competitive training method doesn’t put students in pressure situations similar enough to real confrontations, breeding a false sense of security in students through tacit affirmations such as:

1) It may take 20 years, but this stuff will work if you just keep practicing.

2) Don’t worry about strength, since physical conditioning isn’t that important.

3) These exercises we’re doing are how attacks really are.

4) If it’s not working, you’re not using your center.

5) Keep extending that ki to keep him at bay!

It’s not fair to your students to misrepresent what your art is capable of. If your average aikido student rolled with a judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu player, or got in the ring with a boxer or kickboxer, he wouldn’t know what to do with that kind of intensity. He’d simply be overwhelmed. I’ve seen this point debated through letters to the editor in Aikido Today Magazine, but there’s only one way to find out. Do it. To paraphrase Bruce Lee, you can’t learn to swim unless you get wet, so how can you learn how to fight without fighting?" - Roy Dean

To me, all this represents a view on aikido which defeats it´s purpose. The purpose for me is what I describe in my post above the post I quote here. I don´t think competition belongs in aikido.
Peace
Lars

[dalen7]

To me, all this represents a view on aikido which defeats it´s purpose. The purpose for me is what I describe in my post above the post I quote here. I don´t think competition belongs in aikido.
Peace
Lars

Perhaps... but you do not need Aikido to reach the state of mind you mentioned, though it indeed can be an integral part of the path to reach that point.

I know with my Aikido and Eckhart I reached the same conclusion as you.

But to make it out as anything past that... as for actual 'skill' in the given scenario, is just a disservice for those who are looking at it in such a way - which many people are. ;)

Peace

Dalen

p.s.

The good part with BJJ is you can be an old fart and have legit skills that if you wanted you could truly play around and even use if needed - though with the mindset you and I are going after you may be less inclined for the latter.

With Aikido as it currently is, you basically are within a defined box with no flexibility - if you wanted to try out a game of chess with others who dont already know your moves it wouldnt work for you as it would not be cooperative. [Yes, there is even cooperative resistance that builds up some strange habits that can take people by surprise when you try something different to what they are used to.] :)

[lars beyer]

Perhaps... but you do not need Aikido to reach the state of mind you mentioned, though it indeed can be an integral part of the path to reach that point.

I know with my Aikido and Eckhart I reached the same conclusion as you.

But to make it out as anything past that... as for actual 'skill' in the given scenario, is just a disservice for those who are looking at it in such a way - which many people are. ;)

Peace

Dalen

p.s.

The good part with BJJ is you can be an old fart and have legit skills that if you wanted you could truly play around and even use if needed - though with the mindset you and I are going after you may be less inclined for the latter.

With Aikido as it currently is, you basically are within a defined box with no flexibility - if you wanted to try out a game of chess with others who dont already know your moves it wouldnt work for you as it would not be cooperative. [Yes, there is even cooperative resistance that builds up some strange habits that can take people by surprise when you try something different to what they are used to.] :)

Hi, I confused your message with another one in the hurry ! I have contacted the administrator to be able to edit my response to your message, I don´t find my answer aprobiate ! Sorry !
Peace
Lars

[mathewjgano]

Tsuki/atemi...
dunno, would say a love hate relation.

Fine for movement, etc. - but the way it is practiced typically will leave most people on the floor of any boxing ring. Im not saying its impossible, Im guessing Rokkyo may potentially be pulled off - but even then the strikes in Aikido are nothing like in boxing.

I see too many people, [ranking], who appear to believe that their Tsuki is awesome - until a gentle reminder comes up with a typical jab, etc. which is too fast. [of course no real hit in Aikido, but its fast enough to make the point.]

There are all kind of simulated strikes and entries, which I personally dont like only in that if the person were really hit the whole body would not stay in the postion it is in to finish the move how it is done.

More than likely you would transition to a ground move once someone is hit, etc.

Again, not useless - but within a wider picture, from my experience, it can be misleading.

Peace

Dalen
Good points! I'm not saying anything about the general quality of strikes practiced in Aikido (FWIW-mine suck), only suggesting there is probably something more to the "karate chop" to the forehead than perhaps meets the eye. I'm a very low level student, so I'm making no strong claims of authority here, but raising the tegatana and cutting seems a like a potentially good deflection followed by a potentially good suppression. My understanding is that ideally it shouldn't matter quite so much what hits aite...whether it's my ulna in a downward arc or my knuckles in a more horizontal one, if the rest of my body is well-connected to it, it should be viable.
Take care,
Matt

[dalen7]

... if the rest of my body is well-connected to it, it should be viable.
Take care,
Matt

nicely put... :)

Peace

Dalen

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dalen, nice post. as you know Roy and I are friends and share much in common.

I can't really improve on Roy's comments. Only thing I'll say is....no excuses.

I like being in the position to be able to follow the philosophy typically ascribed to Aikido, and to be able to be competent in fighting. That is, I can walk into any MMA school, BJJ, judo school, or any other RBSD venue and be able to talk and walk intelligently about training.

I also like having the ability to set an example about being a good citizen and to promote peace and peaceful agendas. Not just talk about it.

So, yeah...I call BS on the "it take 20 years to be effective with Aikido"

Yeah, I suck at much in Aikido, and do not consider myself a master of anything and yea...I see martial arts as a life long journey that changes as u change.

However, if we consider ourselves martial artist, we should be able to offer our students good sound advice and solutions and not platitudes or excuses.

I think you should be able to intelligently deal with the spectrum of fighting and resistance from competition to fighting...to the whole peace and harmony thing. It is not impossible, only that we have instructors that can't do things that define the rules of engagement in training and curriculum that hide their weaknesses and limitations.

I understand that not everyone has the access of time to the raining and experiences that have been fortunate to be exposed to, but that is not important either. What is important is that we point them in the right direction and be true about our limitations with out offer BS or hiding behind some convoluted set of rules or philosophy that says that we don't do certain things cause dogmatically they don't fall within the constraints of aikido,.

What would be refreshing is to hear, that yeah...understanding fighting, violence , and conflict is important ...however this is the limit of my training or abilities, or this is all I want to focus on...but if it is important to you on your journey on the path, let's figure out how we can guide you on that path that is unique for you.

Not, well, we don't do that cause it is not Aikido, and you can get there by not fighting, but it will take u 20 years.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Just want to clarify. I am not saying that you need to be a bad ass, or study MMA to have value or quality Aikido. Just saying don't make excuses, or contrive constraints, or rules to ignore those things or discount them. Our practices can be tailored to our focuses and abilities, based on age, body, size, and mind. It should.

I certainly don't expect a 70 year old to be able to do full break falls to realize the advantages of Aikido practice.

A 20 year old in perfect shape and abilities though should be guided in a different way, and his practice should be able to encompass a high degree of martial competence and still be able to call himself a aikidoka.

A good instructor should be able to walk the spectrum and not limit it. Even if it means referring him to others.

[graham christian]

Graham, would you like to get in the ring with manny pacquaio, and throw a couple of sword strikes( a.k.a. shomenuchi)at him? You think you could take him out with sword strikes?
If you know anything in any martial art that is more of a joke than sword strike, please let me know what it is.

The joke is thinking there is any comparison. Fights in a ring are sports. Any Aikidoka could go train in those things and make their way up through the levels just like anyone else.

Martial arts are not the same thing. Those who insist on comparing them are not too bright in my eyes.

Add to that that Aikido is more the art of no fighting then the comparisons are even more outrageous.

How many eye gauges are allowed in those sports? How many neck breaks are allowed? How many hits or punches to the adams apple or throat are allowed? How many bites are allowed? How many knives or weapons are allowed? How many dislocations are allowed? Should I go on?

What is not allowed is what you have to see in order to see it is a sport. Time to wake up I think.

Time to enjoy combat sports for what they are and martial disciplines for what they are and then you can see the difference and enjoy both or whichever one you prefer.

No comparison. No need.

If anyone really wants to understand Aikido in a 'fight' then they would talk to those who used it in life in such situations otherwise it's a waste of time and breath.

Peace.G.

[Ketsan]

but it will take u 20 years.

I never understood that and the more I transtition from simply being a student to becoming an instructor I understand it less and less. My experience is that there's a pressure in Aikido to slow things down, to not get things done and not get skills learned. We have this paradigm that says that Aikido is very hard and takes a long time to learn and we adjust our training to match that expectation.

We can see this expectation born out around black belt anxieties and if rank means anything and the discussions around what we should be training for. Dan grade is four or five years work if you're trying to get a student to dan grade but in Aikido you can't be seen to be training for dan grade and I suppose as a teacher you can't be seen to be training your students for dan grade.

Aikido is largely a group of wannabe wise old men sitting in caves with long white beards talking in koans about the supposedly mystical realities of training. There's no drive or immediacy and no sense of purpose. In other arts there are competitions so there is a drive to learn and improve because you as a practitioner are going to be in a fight or at least you're training with guys who are going to be in a fight.

Aikido by comparison is about not being in a rush and being seen not to want black belt and seeing training as it's own goal. If training is it's own goal what motivation is there to learn Aikido? This is the paradox of Aikido: you're not supposed to want to learn Aikido because training would then be a means to an end and Aikido has no ends to meet.

Black belt isn't even a goal because you're only ready for it when you don't want it so there's a pressure there not to improve and not to learn or at least become apathetic to the idea of your own progress.

That's why it takes twenty years; all the incentives are for people who don't want to progress and stagnation and ability to stagnate without it affecting you is the goal. The message of Aikido is: If you can come training and make no progress and still train day in day out for the rest of your life you've mastered Aikido.

If anyone walks into an Aikido dojo and asks how long it takes to get black belt they usually get an answer that would make any sane person go and do another art because when we say "it takes as long as it takes" what we're really saying is "Student progress isn't really a goal here."

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Add to that that Aikido is more the art of no fighting then the comparisons are even more outrageous.

How many eye gauges are allowed in those sports? How many neck breaks are allowed? How many hits or punches to the adams apple or throat are allowed? How many bites are allowed? How many knives or weapons are allowed? How many dislocations are allowed? Should I go on?

What is not allowed is what you have to see in order to see it is a sport. Time to wake up I think.


How compassionate.

[grondahl]

How many eye gauges are allowed in those sports? How many neck breaks are allowed? How many hits or punches to the adams apple or throat are allowed? How many bites are allowed? How many knives or weapons are allowed? How many dislocations are allowed?

However: how many necks have you broken in aikido? How many times have you struck your partner in the throat or on the adams apple with power and intention? Do you regulary bite your training partners?

The question of sport is irrelevant. You can have realistic sparring/dynamic testing and still not have competitions, you do it because it´s a learning experience.

As for dislocations: There is reason that you tap out. As for weapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTKqYkvmdkU

And a +1 for Demetrios latest comment. The peaceful martial art that resolves conflict without violence, killing and maiming is after all a peaceful activity if done by anybody who ties on a hakama and do a couple of tenkans now and then :straightf

[dalen7]

How many dislocations are allowed?

What is not allowed is what you have to see in order to see it is a sport. Time to wake up I think.

Peace.G.

As for the first statement, you must not have seen: ronda rousey vs miesha tate
[warning: Graphic video - viewer discretion advised]
http://youtu.be/zHm9XjjbXIg

And if Im not mistaken she took out someone elses arm the match before.

The Gracie Bros. just did a breakdown on some guy who broke the upper arm of a guy in a match with a twist of the arm. [Dont ask me to explain the mechanics, but the pressure in the position snapped it instead of a 'simple' dislocation.]

As for the second:
What Im not seeing are Aikidoka who can take and mix their art to the intensity of the sport level to make it work... [i.e. how many Aikidoka can make their techniques work without resorting to eye gouges, etc. - and how would one know unless tried out.]

So the argument does not appear to be totally valid.

Perhaps the problem is due to how Aikido is perceived. If you look at it closely it seems that its about range.

Aikido you enter, get up close you may get in kotegaishi, etc.
But then you may go to Koshinage, [very much in the Judo realm] and then land on the floor or have someone roll out of ikkyo if not 'close' the whole time and go to BJJ.

Basically Im describing Japanese Jiu-Jitsu before it broke down into many parts.
[At least from how I see it.]

One does not have to train Aikido as a sport, but to try to implement aspects from what you see in sport would not necessarily be a bad thing.

If I were to fight someone I would not choose to strike them if I did not have to, would it not be much better to control it and have the flexibility to do what Rousey did if needed to? [Now in sport that came down to Tates ego... another topic of its own.]

And if your teaching kids martial arts... its a good idea to offer them the option of learning something that will grant them the most control as well as a back up option, if need be, of strikes, eye gouges, etc.

Peace

Dalen

[graham christian]

As for the first statement, you must not have seen: ronda rousey vs miesha tate
[warning: Graphic video - viewer discretion advised]
http://youtu.be/zHm9XjjbXIg

And if Im not mistaken she took out someone elses arm the match before.

The Gracie Bros. just did a breakdown on some guy who broke the upper arm of a guy in a match with a twist of the arm. [Dont ask me to explain the mechanics, but the pressure in the position snapped it instead of a 'simple' dislocation.]

As for the second:
What Im not seeing are Aikidoka who can take and mix their art to the intensity of the sport level to make it work... [i.e. how many Aikidoka can make their techniques work without resorting to eye gouges, etc. - and how would one know unless tried out.]

So the argument does not appear to be totally valid.

Perhaps the problem is due to how Aikido is perceived. If you look at it closely it seems that its about range.

Aikido you enter, get up close you may get in kotegaishi, etc.
But then you may go to Koshinage, [very much in the Judo realm] and then land on the floor or have someone roll out of ikkyo if not 'close' the whole time and go to BJJ.

Basically Im describing Japanese Jiu-Jitsu before it broke down into many parts.
[At least from how I see it.]

One does not have to train Aikido as a sport, but to try to implement aspects from what you see in sport would not necessarily be a bad thing.

If I were to fight someone I would not choose to strike them if I did not have to, would it not be much better to control it and have the flexibility to do what Rousey did if needed to? [Now in sport that came down to Tates ego... another topic of its own.]

And if your teaching kids martial arts... its a good idea to offer them the option of learning something that will grant them the most control as well as a back up option, if need be, of strikes, eye gouges, etc.

Peace

Dalen

Perception of Aikido is the problem I would say yes. Entering, the skill of, goes to many levels but the point of is missed many times. Why enter?

When a person can truly see the answer to that question then they can see the end of the situation or fight. If not then they have more to learn. Entering does not equal now do this technique or now do that one, it equals end of.

In my Aikido it equals beginning of but that's another story.

Peace.G.

[graham christian]

How compassionate.

Yes. Compassion opens your eyes to the stupidity.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I don't need to open my eyes to stupidity. I can smell it all around.

[graham christian]

However: how many necks have you broken in aikido? How many times have you struck your partner in the throat or on the adams apple with power and intention? Do you regulary bite your training partners?

The question of sport is irrelevant. You can have realistic sparring/dynamic testing and still not have competitions, you do it because it´s a learning experience.

As for dislocations: There is reason that you tap out. As for weapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTKqYkvmdkU

And a +1 for Demetrios latest comment. The peaceful martial art that resolves conflict without violence, killing and maiming is after all a peaceful activity if done by anybody who ties on a hakama and do a couple of tenkans now and then :straightf

Perspective. Sport is sport and those things ar not allowed. On the battlefield those things are allowed. Totally different.

In a martial art you can practice facing and handling such things. You can even practice doing those things. Reality.

In Aikido you can practice harmonizing with those things. It's up to you.

Peace.G,

[roadtoad]

You can only do what you practice. If you practice against sword strike, you expect to fight against sword strike. If aikido would get riid of a few 19th century anachcroisms such as sword strike, And practice against realistic attacks, such as boxing and karate blows and kicks. If so, all aikidoka would have a better chance on the street. The other things would be to show aikidoka how to block taekwondo, UFC muy thai, fma, etc, All these arts are blockable, if you know a few simple techniques. The great korean side kick can be blocked by simply jamming it, attacking the attack, a.k.a. aikido style. The muy thai kick...you have to raise your knee high, and, again, block the kick with your lower leg by moving into it. Even BJJ and UFC hold downs can be countered with simple techniques that highly resemble aikido, but on the mat.
There are many such easy techniques that can work to make aikido better.
These small little changes would make aikido completely viable in any street fight.
And, lastly, aikido techniques were really meant to do with ki. The techniques work a lot better when you have it.

[Budd]

A good instructor should be able to walk the spectrum and not limit it. Even if it means referring him to others.

Kev, loved this line . . totally agree and try to model it for folks I work with. There seems to sometimes be an assumption that when one gets put in the role of instructor or teacher, that they suddenly become an expert on things way outside the scope of what they're teaching (this can be an assumption held erroneously by the teacher or the student or both).

So, that being said, careful caveats and having a good network of friends that train across the martial art/sport spectrum is very useful. Having enough familiarity to have a legitimate opinion is also good, but being aware enough to know when to refer someone elsewhere is even better.

[mathewjgano]

You can only do what you practice. If you practice against sword strike, you expect to fight against sword strike. If aikido would get riid of a few 19th century anachcroisms such as sword strike, And practice against realistic attacks, such as boxing and karate blows and kicks. If so, all aikidoka would have a better chance on the street. The other things would be to show aikidoka how to block taekwondo, UFC muy thai, fma, etc, All these arts are blockable, if you know a few simple techniques. The great korean side kick can be blocked by simply jamming it, attacking the attack, a.k.a. aikido style. The muy thai kick...you have to raise your knee high, and, again, block the kick with your lower leg by moving into it. Even BJJ and UFC hold downs can be countered with simple techniques that highly resemble aikido, but on the mat.
There are many such easy techniques that can work to make aikido better.
These small little changes would make aikido completely viable in any street fight.
And, lastly, aikido techniques were really meant to do with ki. The techniques work a lot better when you have it.

The problem as I see it is that "Aikido" is so damned big. Simply put, there are people who practice this way as part of their Aikido training. As long as the student can recognize that training paradigms are slices and not the whole pie, they'll (generally) understand there are areas which tend to be lacking in some way. When I was driving up to see what Aikido practice looked like, the student introducing me to it spoke of sparring with friends in Tae Kwon Do. It's this kind of interchange which I think addresses what you're describing.
And that says nothing about the folks who aren't training to be "martially" effective in the first place. In the world of shooting, some folks simply like plinking away at cans. They can study aspects related to hitting a target while not preparing themselves at all for a fight. This is most martial artists, in my understanding.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

The problem as I see it is that "Aikido" is so damned big.
Or that anyone can use the "Aikido" name for what he does.

[sakumeikan]

Graham, would you like to get in the ring with manny pacquaio, and throw a couple of sword strikes( a.k.a. shomenuchi)at him? You think you could take him out with sword strikes?
If you know anything in any martial art that is more of a joke than sword strike, please let me know what it is.
Dear Ike,
As it happens the son of a good friend of mine trained in aikido.He now does mma. The son uses Aikido concepts .For what its worth some of his bouts against men from different martial backgrounds have been beaten by this lad in some 48 secs. or thereabouts.Cheers, Joe.

[Alic]

Now, I'm not expert in Aikido, and I doubt I ever will be, but I've done quite a bit of research and reading myself, and I just wanted to comment on one thing, if I may.

The shomen uchi is not, I repeat, not an attack. It is by no means an proper atemi or something you'd expect on the sidewalks or battlefields. What it is is a teaching aid, a way to simulate an attack.

You see, there's only a few ways to attack with arms. Whatever shape the hand is in, the arm is restricted in it's motions due to human physiology. Aikido is a studying of human movement afterall, so you'd expect something like this to dictate attacks.

For strikes that do not grab onto opponent, which end in a connection point, we classify them into: shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, chudan zuki, jodan zuki, gedan zuki, and various others that I don't know yet. For shomen uchi, it is the strike downwards from the top, down your centreline, and cut through, just like a vertical sword cut.

But for strikes like shomen uchi, jodan zuki, chudan zuki, and gedan zuki, the strikes all flow down the centreline, which means they move in a straight line towards you. This is the centreline theory of attack, and you see this famously in Wing Chun. For Aikido, the centreline attacks are to be dealt with using evasion, blocking, or flowing with the strike. The reason shomen uchi is used is do simulate an attack down centreline, so that nage (or shite) gets a good feel for the centreline attacks, so that when transition over to jodan zuki, it because easier to learn. The same applies to other attacks that flow down the centre. The idea isn't to master defense against the shomen uchi, nor to learn shomen uchi so that you may strike with it, but rather to learn and understand the centreline theory of attacks.

Now, you can use shomen uchi to attack, but why use it when there's much better methods of striking? Granted, masters like Seagal have perfected theirs into a deadly weapon, almost like a sword, but for most of us, a uraken or shomen zuki would work far better.

As for the reason why shomen uchi is learned historically? Much simpler answer: sword cuts are done in the exact same motion, and when trying to evade that, you should look at the hand instead of the blade. The hand will tell you where the strike will come, and evading that and countering is exactly the same, with or without blade. The important thing is to understand line of attack, timing, and proper footwork. Everythings will come through following that.

[mathewjgano]

Or that anyone can use the "Aikido" name for what he does.

That's the trouble with the symbolic nature of words. BTW, I'm Aikidoing the hell out of this keyboard! :D

[Kevin Leavitt]

However: how many necks have you broken in aikido? How many times have you struck your partner in the throat or on the adams apple with power and intention? Do you regulary bite your training partners?

The question of sport is irrelevant. You can have realistic sparring/dynamic testing and still not have competitions, you do it because it´s a learning experience.

As for dislocations: There is reason that you tap out. As for weapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTKqYkvmdkU

And a +1 for Demetrios latest comment. The peaceful martial art that resolves conflict without violence, killing and maiming is after all a peaceful activity if done by anybody who ties on a hakama and do a couple of tenkans now and then :straightf

Thank you for your answer Peter.

I've covered this flawed logic numerous times. I compete, while I am too old to fight MMA, I have and will if necessary...and I can also walk into just about any Aikido dojo as a yudansha and be able to train with no issues like any other yudansha should.

So, basically, I am saying Graham's comments are incorrect.

Competition as we have covered can teach you a lot about fighting. That is a fact proven by many.

Basically what I am saying is I can eye gouge anytime I feel like it if the situation is appropriate. However when it is illegal based on rules or not appropriate, then I don't. I am really tired of the kindergarten logic that states that because Emma has rules that therefore they can't really fight cause they don't allow it. Utter rubbish spoken by those that have no understanding of what they are talking about.

sorry Graham, but your thoughts on this are very wrong IMO and experiences.

[Kevin Leavitt]

dalen wrote:

As for the second: What Im not seeing are Aikidoka who can take and mix their art to the intensity of the sport level to make it work... [i.e. how many Aikidoka can make their techniques work without resorting to eye gouges, etc. - and how would one know unless tried out.]

Good point. There is a reason for this. I did a lot of Aikido type stuff when I first started bjj as aikdio was all I knew, so of course I would try the kite gaeshi and sankyus.

Don't do them now, and to be honest as I developed my bjj game, there are a lot of bjj things I don't incorporate either.

In fighting, you have to develop a game or strategy, that is patterns of efficiency that work for you based on the conditions of your fight. It is based on many factors, size, age, strenghpth, flexibility, situation.

Why don't I do the aiki things anymore, well they don't work, and there are better strategies for doing what I need to do. Throw weapons into the mix and I start doing these things again.

Howver much is the same structurally and internally. The problem is a lot of folks, mostly newbs for us on techniques and not on the internals. As Dan Harden talks about constantly, if you have IS...well then it applies universally. I think that this aspect of Aikido is the most important, and the most liberating as you are no longer constrained by a stylistic definition. You simply adapt to the situation.

So I see it as a catch 22. Stylistically you won't see the external, but you can see the internal if you actually understand it. However most do not have this ability nor have they spent the time trying to honestly work through non compliant opponents so they simply do not have the paradigm to really understand this fact.

To me fundamentally, there is no difference between iikyo and omaplata or arm bar from guard. They both follow the same principles. While this is not an example of IS, it is an example of the basic principle of martial kinesiology. However most would say the three are unrelated as they stylistically do not look the same as techniques.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Oh yea...on the whole eye scratching thing.....I have had people checking out bjj bring that up. I say...roll with me for 15 minute without it so you can get a feel for how I control you. Then if you still aren't a believer...then we will allow eyes and groin. But keep in mind, I get to play by the same rules.

Never had ONE person ask to include these things after the 15 minutes. Point is, you only have this luxury if you control the fight. Learn to control the fight through good training. Guess what, we are all born with the skill to eye gouge. Eye gouging does not win fights, but good control will.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Kev, loved this line . . totally agree and try to model it for folks I work with. There seems to sometimes be an assumption that when one gets put in the role of instructor or teacher, that they suddenly become an expert on things way outside the scope of what they're teaching (this can be an assumption held erroneously by the teacher or the student or both).

So, that being said, careful caveats and having a good network of friends that train across the martial art/sport spectrum is very useful. Having enough familiarity to have a legitimate opinion is also good, but being aware enough to know when to refer someone elsewhere is even better.

Hey Buddy, well said with a lot less words than I did. Clint Eastwood said in One of his movies, A Man's got to know his limits"

Also, on Clint Eastwood. Another favorite from the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Tucco said " if ya gonna talk....talk if your gonna shoot...shoot". Lots of wisdom in those statements, even if they are from movies.

[graham christian]

Now, I'm not expert in Aikido, and I doubt I ever will be, but I've done quite a bit of research and reading myself, and I just wanted to comment on one thing, if I may.

The shomen uchi is not, I repeat, not an attack. It is by no means an proper atemi or something you'd expect on the sidewalks or battlefields. What it is is a teaching aid, a way to simulate an attack.

You see, there's only a few ways to attack with arms. Whatever shape the hand is in, the arm is restricted in it's motions due to human physiology. Aikido is a studying of human movement afterall, so you'd expect something like this to dictate attacks.

For strikes that do not grab onto opponent, which end in a connection point, we classify them into: shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, chudan zuki, jodan zuki, gedan zuki, and various others that I don't know yet. For shomen uchi, it is the strike downwards from the top, down your centreline, and cut through, just like a vertical sword cut.

But for strikes like shomen uchi, jodan zuki, chudan zuki, and gedan zuki, the strikes all flow down the centreline, which means they move in a straight line towards you. This is the centreline theory of attack, and you see this famously in Wing Chun. For Aikido, the centreline attacks are to be dealt with using evasion, blocking, or flowing with the strike. The reason shomen uchi is used is do simulate an attack down centreline, so that nage (or shite) gets a good feel for the centreline attacks, so that when transition over to jodan zuki, it because easier to learn. The same applies to other attacks that flow down the centre. The idea isn't to master defense against the shomen uchi, nor to learn shomen uchi so that you may strike with it, but rather to learn and understand the centreline theory of attacks.

Now, you can use shomen uchi to attack, but why use it when there's much better methods of striking? Granted, masters like Seagal have perfected theirs into a deadly weapon, almost like a sword, but for most of us, a uraken or shomen zuki would work far better.

As for the reason why shomen uchi is learned historically? Much simpler answer: sword cuts are done in the exact same motion, and when trying to evade that, you should look at the hand instead of the blade. The hand will tell you where the strike will come, and evading that and countering is exactly the same, with or without blade. The important thing is to understand line of attack, timing, and proper footwork. Everythings will come through following that.

Not true.
Shomen is a sword cut, an attack. Replicating this without sword is open hands. Karate people would probably understand this better. Or those who understand tegatana.

Peace.G.

[Kevin Leavitt]

The problem as I see it is that "Aikido" is so damned big. Simply put, there are people who practice this way as part of their Aikido training. As long as the student can recognize that training paradigms are slices and not the whole pie, they'll (generally) understand there are areas which tend to be lacking in some way. When I was driving up to see what Aikido practice looked like, the student introducing me to it spoke of sparring with friends in Tae Kwon Do. It's this kind of interchange which I think addresses what you're describing.
And that says nothing about the folks who aren't training to be "martially" effective in the first place. In the world of shooting, some folks simply like plinking away at cans. They can study aspects related to hitting a target while not preparing themselves at all for a fight. This is most martial artists, in my understanding.

Yes...it is so damn big, and there is room for lots of variations and interpretations. I am good with that personally. Budd's post covers it well, and so does yours.

I personally only get up in arms when someone states stuff like, striking is not in Aikido, or Aikido is about avoidance, or Aikido is this, not that..blah, blah, blah.

Aikido if your teaching aiki principles and aiki correctly is adaptable to most anything involving kinesiology. However, if at the fundamental level you are not teaching the physical aspects of Aikido, that is, you are teaching techniques or focusing on the spiritual, or philosophical aspects, without a sound aiki/physical structure...well, I don't think you have much there really.

So to me, it doesn't matter if you teach shomen strike or not, it doesn't matter as long as you have a way to teach aiki as it relates to movement.

So, you can adapt your practice to an 80 year old, someone in a wheel chair, or a 20 year old MMAer.

And those that want to...well they can focus on softening and spiritual pursuits through practice.

It is big enough to do all those things.

Just don't say stupid stuff like it can't apply to fighting, competition, or striking, or what not...it can be integrated in piano playing too.

[graham christian]

Thank you for your answer Peter.

I've covered this flawed logic numerous times. I compete, while I am too old to fight MMA, I have and will if necessary...and I can also walk into just about any Aikido dojo as a yudansha and be able to train with no issues like any other yudansha should.

So, basically, I am saying Graham's comments are incorrect.

Competition as we have covered can teach you a lot about fighting. That is a fact proven by many.

Basically what I am saying is I can eye gouge anytime I feel like it if the situation is appropriate. However when it is illegal based on rules or not appropriate, then I don't. I am really tired of the kindergarten logic that states that because Emma has rules that therefore they can't really fight cause they don't allow it. Utter rubbish spoken by those that have no understanding of what they are talking about.

sorry Graham, but your thoughts on this are very wrong IMO and experiences.

You may question my thoughts but not my experience.

P.S, Who said someone who is a ring fighter doesn't know about fighting? Or martial artist for that matter. Those who think it equals street or life situations are misguided. It may help or it may be a hindrance, depends on them.

Peace.G.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Alic wrote:

As for the reason why shomen uchi is learned historically? Much simpler answer: sword cuts are done in the exact same motion, and when trying to evade that, you should look at the hand instead of the blade. The hand will tell you where the strike will come, and evading that and countering is exactly the same, with or without blade. The important thing is to understand line of attack, timing, and proper footwork. Everythings will come through following that.



Not a bad answer IMO overall.

Simply put, for me, shomen strikes give us a very simplistic, controlled attack that filters out all the other variables that allow us to explore the basics of irimi and ma ai. It narrows things down to a set of parameters to encourage the development of proper habits of movement and posture.

It has nothing to do with tactics or application at all.

Steve Seagal is no more lethal with his shomen strike than a six year old. It is simply a train methodology, and one IMO that works pretty darn well for what it was meant to convey. Don't read into it too much IMO.

[Kevin Leavitt]

You may question my thoughts but not my experience.

P.S, Who said someone who is a ring fighter doesn't know about fighting? Or martial artist for that matter. Those who think it equals street or life situations are misguided. It may help or it may be a hindrance, depends on them.

Peace.G.

Fair enough...what is your experience as a ring and or sport fights, and or police, military, or street application. It is possible I have misunderstood your background to qualify your thoughts on application of competitive models to reality.

I have no issue with your choices in focus on Aikido, I have taken the time to see your perspective on Aikido as a spiritual practice and I am good with that and respect it. I also would not question it since your background and experience on enlightening people seems to be well established.

I do question your experience in martial application and experiences when you make statement like below when my experiences have proven otherwise. So yes, I question your experience in this area.

The joke is thinking there is any comparison. Fights in a ring are sports. Any Aikidoka could go train in those things and make their way up through the levels just like anyone else.

Martial arts are not the same thing. Those who insist on comparing them are not too bright in my eyes.

[graham christian]

Fair enough...what is your experience as a ring and or sport fights, and or police, military, or street application. It is possible I have misunderstood your background to qualify your thoughts on application of competitive models to reality.

I have no issue with your choices in focus on Aikido, I have taken the time to see your perspective on Aikido as a spiritual practice and I am good with that and respect it. I also would not question it since your background and experience on enlightening people seems to be well established.

I do question your experience in martial application and experiences when you make statement like below when my experiences have proven otherwise. So yes, I question your experience in this area.

Sigh....(just putting that there because that's what happened when I read your reply)

A lot of questions you have there in such a short space. The sigh is because I have explained too many times about it's effectiveness also. The short answer to your question is too many experiences.

The long answer is I will break it down for you. The special answer I doubt you would understand so I'll leave that for a separate post if necessary.

Sport fights: Never been in sports fights. My friend and co Aikidoka and teacher...plenty of aba boxing. Students or people I've helped range from street underground fighter to competition martial artists. I never care really for they are people who want to learn the principles.

Police: Trained two. Both with great successs in their field of operations.

Military: None for such purpose but some who just happen to be or have been.

Street application: Too many to mention. Thus lot's of experience in such situations as not encountered in the ring and never will be. Every one real. Therefore to me the true martial way of being.

Peace.G.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks Graham, so all I am saying is if you have no experience in sport fighting and sport fighting training methodologies, then don't comment on how they apply or don't apply to reality.

Just as I will never comment on police application dealing with use of force as I am not qualified in defensive tactics and cannot offer any real opinion on the risk factors dealing with civilian use of force risk and management.

I do however know a fair amount about sport fighting methodology and applications, Aikido, and military applications, as well as I have my own take on the synergies of philosophy/spirituality. So I will offer my comments and if you note, I will always caveat my statements with something like IME or IMO I have found X to apply or not apply or to be true.

I try to stay out of areas where I clearly have no experience and defer to those that I respect as subject matter experts in those areas.

As always, thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions, I may not agree with what u have to say, but always appreciate that u do take the time to answer directly when asked.

[David Yap]

Not true.
Shomen is a sword cut, an attack. Replicating this without sword is open hands. Karate people would probably understand this better. Or those who understand tegatana.

Peace.G.

Sorry. 40+ years experience in karate I have not seen a shuto-uke executed in a sword cutting way. :D

[Phil Van Treese]

If Aikido doesn't work in a fight then I wouldn't be here now. I was in Viet Nam and it did save my life more than once. Over there it wasn't a fight with rules---just a life and death fight. Don't tell me Aikido doesn't work. Even when I was a deputy with the FTF (Fugitive Task Force) and the USMS (U.S. Marshall Service), I took down my share of violent criminals. Sounds like you have the "battleship mouth with a rowboat *** to back it up" syndrome.

[Marc Abrams]

Sounds like you have the "battleship mouth with a rowboat *** to back it up" syndrome.

Phil:

Across the pond, they simply say that they practice a "Zen Martial Art" :yuck: . In the N.Y. metro area, we say "Can talk the talk, but can't walk the talk." Thanks for introducing a little reality into this sometimes comical discussion.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[phitruong]

The shomen uchi is not, I repeat, not an attack. It is by no means an proper atemi or something you'd expect on the sidewalks or battlefields. What it is is a teaching aid, a way to simulate an attack.

Really? so if i got a bottle and crack you over the head, that's not a shomen uchi kind of an attack? i was watching a couple of UFC fights and saw some of the ground-n-pound that looked very much like shomen uchi to me, it was just aiming at the guy laying on the floor, but very much looked like shomen uchi. then there is this thing called hammer fist in kungfu. now if i was on the battle fields, i would very much like to be armed with a battle axe and guess what, it would be "hammer time", shomen uchi all the way, with occasion of slicing for the ankles. sorry, that was the Genghis Khan in me speaking. :)

As for the reason why shomen uchi is learned historically? Much simpler answer: sword cuts are done in the exact same motion, and when trying to evade that, you should look at the hand instead of the blade. The hand will tell you where the strike will come, and evading that and countering is exactly the same, with or without blade.

why looked at the hand or the blade for that matter? those are not your problem. it's the person behind those things is your problem. i am going to paraphrase Saotome sensei, without the accent,
"sword no enemy. enemy enemy"
"hands no enemy. enemy enemy"
well, you got the idea. ki no enemy, without gas mask enemy. :D

[jackie adams]

I am just making an observation. There is much discussion about the effectiveness of tool, but little of the operator and their effectiveness using the tool. Not a criticism, an observation. It seems then that preferential bias leads to polarized opinions. What more value is there in the discussion beyond opinion?

I will be starting my own school soon. Dealing with new student's questions underlined with whether Aikido will or will not work in a "real" fight, and how to define that.

The word "real" fight is narrowly defined in much overkilled as the ultimate life and death situation...."the street" fight. Combat the uberfight over dramatically stressed to a toe-to-toe life and death situation. In some odd turn of fate that somehow ends up being defined criteria of a MMA competition. I ask, where then does domestic violence play a role, isn't a real fighting? Then, how about being raped, isn't that a real fight? The paradigms are outside the conventional one being discussed here slip into being morphed into a life and death fight into a mano a mano testosterone contest. Doesn't Aikido have validity of discussion to other violent situations? I don't know how many innocent people are faced with being criminally attacked by MMA?

What about the old self-defense adages of how to avoid a fight, and how Aikido applies to that.

Coming to this forum looking for answers to valid questions, like does Aikido really work in a fight are important to me. A soon to be a sensei, prospective students with large dewy eyes full of wonderment will be asking the same question, but for different reasons. I can't take that lightly. My credibility is on the line. Giving those new students a false impression of Aikido is criminal, I have a conscious. Bottom line is, opinions are great but...when they are narrowed down to polarized opinions much of the value is lost. A broader more dynamic discussion would really help me out allot, as a reader add value. Thanks of the consideration.

[sakumeikan]

Alic wrote:

Not a bad answer IMO overall.

Simply put, for me, shomen strikes give us a very simplistic, controlled attack that filters out all the other variables that allow us to explore the basics of irimi and ma ai. It narrows things down to a set of parameters to encourage the development of proper habits of movement and posture.

It has nothing to do with tactics or application at all.

Steve Seagal is no more lethal with his shomen strike than a six year old. It is simply a train methodology, and one IMO that works pretty darn well for what it was meant to convey. Don't read into it too much IMO.

Dear Kevin,
I would suggest that Mr Seagals Shomenuchi would be more lethal than a six year old.Simply put there is more weight behind said shomen. Cheers, Joe.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dear Kevin,
I would suggest that Mr Seagals Shomenuchi would be more lethal than a six year old.Simply put there is more weight behind said shomen. Cheers, Joe.

Lol....yes, you do have a point there!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Jackie wrote:

. I ask, where then does domestic violence play a role, isn't a real fighting? Then, how about being raped, isn't that a real fight? The paradigms are outside the conventional one being discussed here slip into being morphed into a life and death fight into a mano a mano testosterone contest. Doesn't Aikido have validity of discussion to other violent situations? I don't know how many innocent people are faced with being criminally attacked by MMA?



I agree. Most assaults I believe are caused by people we know and they close the distance on use through that familiarity. So, the question is, do you teach your students the clinch, guard, how to escape the mount? The basics of BJJ and Judo newaza? Also how to form frames kick, create space and get away? Things that are done in Muay Thai and Krav Maga.

When dealing with domestic violence we are most likely going to be fighting from a position of failure as our "friend" has used the relationship or argument to close distance on us and put us in a situation of disadvantage or point of failure that we must now recover from.

So, these things could be taught in Aikido. They typically are not from my experiences, but they are taught as fundamentals in all MMA schools, which makes MMA very relevant to the conditions and situations you describe.

However, it is not the pro MMA guys that keep bring the MMA discussion up. It tends to be the guys that want to discount it as a competitive sport that has no applicability to the real world. We MMA types simply present the point of view that is counter to that fallacy...that is all.

The issue is, for most, Aikido is typically taught as a principle based methodology and not a RSBD type methodology. Doesn't mean it can't be applicable, but when you start looking at scenarios such as domestic violence defense, rape, defensive tactics, combatives, you have to adapt and tailor your training to address the identified risk and situations...which alas, cuts into your aiki development time.

It really is about priorities and competence of your teacher in what he understands about training in various methodologies.

[Marc Abrams]

The issue is, for most, Aikido is typically taught as a principle based methodology and not a RSBD type methodology. Doesn't mean it can't be applicable, but when you start looking at scenarios such as domestic violence defense, rape, defensive tactics, combatives, you have to adapt and tailor your training to address the identified risk and situations...which alas, cuts into your aiki development time.

It really is about priorities and competence of your teacher in what he understands about training in various methodologies.

Kevin:

The Aiki development time is directly integrated into how we execute techniques and move at my school. I strongly believe that working on immediately utilizing developing skills is the best way to get the biggest bang for your buck. We also work on some scenario based stuff where you have to respond from a bad situation that is up close and personal. I do not believe that you necessarily have to sacrifice one thing for the other. I am up front and honest with my students in telling them that this (formal budo training) is not a fast road to effective self-defense. Next time you are in the area, stop by so you can see how those students you met have changes. I hope that you will be pleasantly surprised. They send you and hello as well!

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks Marc, I will make it by again one day for sure. Need to get back on the same continent for a while!

[notdrock]

Simple answer: understand the difference between pre-emptive fighting and spontaneous fighting. Then you'll have your answer.

FYI I'd be very careful about relying on ring-based or mat-based arts for survival. They're more for athletic entertainment than killing or preventing being killed. Next time someone runs at you with a machete and actually wholeheartedly wants to chop you into extra chunky soup, you let me know a) how you changed psychologically and b) what happened when you tried to "go to ground".

:)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Next time someone runs at you with a machete and actually wholeheartedly wants to chop you into extra chunky soup, you let me know a) how you changed psychologically and b) what happened when you tried to "go to ground".

:)

Happened to you? I mean, have you been attacked IRL by someone wielding a blade trying to kill you?

[Kevin Leavitt]

I haven't been chased by a machete, but I have trained to defend against circus ponies and a few other scenarios.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I haven't been chased by a machete, but I have trained to defend against circus ponies and a few other scenarios.

BS. Everybody knows there is no defense against circus ponies.

[Marc Abrams]

I haven't been chased by a machete, but I have trained to defend against circus ponies and a few other scenarios.

Kevin was so skilled in that area, that he was the only person I know who went full speed and missed every single landmine that the ponies left behind them.......:D

Marc Abrams

ps- Whatever you do, don't ask him about the ninja gerbils......

[Kevin Leavitt]

Oh, to add a serious comment. You don't go to the ground cause you want to, you go there because that is where you end up. It is but one aspect of fighting, the one where you fail. The point is when someone closes distance and attacks and is jacking your OODA loop all up, things like falling down tend to happen.

Having the skills to recover from this are important. Getting to your feet is very important. Guys that train in grappling systems...contrary to aiki-land belief can actually discern reality from sport in applying their KSAs.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Ninja gerbils....now that is just so wrong.

[chillzATL]

Happened to you? I mean, have you been attacked IRL by someone wielding a blade trying to kill you?

one of the cops in our dojo was telling us a story just a few weeks ago about another officer getting called to a disturbance in his (the guy telling the story) own neighborhood. The officer shows up, guy walks out of his house weilding a katana and proceeded to charge the officer. He put him down (survived) but man, there are crazies on every corner these days.

[gregstec]

one of the cops in our dojo was telling us a story just a few weeks ago about another officer getting called to a disturbance in his (the guy telling the story) own neighborhood. The officer shows up, guy walks out of his house weilding a katana and proceeded to charge the officer. He put him down (survived) but man, there are crazies on every corner these days.

He did not shoot? That is certainly a 'Shoot' decision in a Shoot? no Shoot? situation. :crazy:

Greg

[Alic]

Phi, Shomen uchi is a very, very specific strike, as is all the other ones (yokomen uchi, jodan zuki, etc). They're for training purposes and are simulated attacks. In no way are these karate's seiken zuki or shuto uke. If you got a bottle in your hand, or a hammerfist, that's no longer a kihon waza's initiating strike, but a full on attack that has to be dealt with differently.

Graham, I agree that the shomen uchi is a sword cut, but it's with the tegatana, and you know how effective those are dispatching folks to the other side of the river. :p

I think the main problem you guys are having with what I'm saying is that you think a shomen uchi is an attack. No, it's not, but that's just definitions. The important thing to note is that you don't use something like this as an actual attack, in a battle, because as an Aikidoka, if you extend yourself out of your "box" where you are strongest in (centre power area), then you become uke instead of nage (shite). You can easily see the extension of body in yokomen uchi, but the same holds for other forms of simulated strikes. Now, you can certainly use things similar to the shomen uchi by utilizing your tegatana, but the strike will be modified to work effectively without putting yourself at a disadvantage via opening yourself to attacks or kuzushi. This commonly occurs during a technique, in close range, rather than as the initiating strike.

The thing about strikes like shomen uchi, yokomen uchi, etc., is that they are done on purpose to allow for techniques to be used on them. They simulate not the speed nor power, but the line of attack/flow that other arts would use. This allows for us to train in recieving and countering the strikes. But as uke, you need to cooperate with nage in completing the technique, so one way to do this without being totally non-resistant is to offer a small opening for the technique to take hold, either as an extension of the body, or a small imperfection in the stance, allowing for nage to apply blocks, evasions, atemi, or kuzushi.

But as I've said before, I'm no Shihan, so everything I said can be disregarded by others of higher credibility at will. I've posted it just as a food for thought or a launching pad for discussion. Rather than talking about the usual lacking-in-experience comment about how Aikido is useless for self-defense (the Kidotai would like to disagree with you, as are your friendly local senshusei grads), let's discussion about something that interests us and educates others (or at least show them how much they don't know about Aikido :) )

[phitruong]

Shomen uchi is a very, very specific strike, as is all the other ones (yokomen uchi, jodan zuki, etc). They're for training purposes and are simulated attacks. In no way are these karate's seiken zuki or shuto uke. If you got a bottle in your hand, or a hammerfist, that's no longer a kihon waza's initiating strike, but a full on attack that has to be dealt with differently.


this is where you and i differ. to me, shomen uchi whether with a hand, knife, sword, bottle, axe, they are all the same. no different to me. they still aim for my head straight on down.

I think the main problem you guys are having with what I'm saying is that you think a shomen uchi is an attack. No, it's not, but that's just definitions. The important thing to note is that you don't use something like this as an actual attack, in a battle, because as an Aikidoka, if you extend yourself out of your "box" where you are strongest in (centre power area), then you become uke instead of nage (shite).

i do not know how you train in striking, but for me, i can strike you with any number of attacks and won't over extend or lose my balance. if you practice with me, i can guarantee you that my shomen uchi is an attack. matter of fact, we trained with striking pads regularly to make sure folks feel the strike and the level of power driving behind it.

[dalen7]

i can guarantee you that my shomen uchi is an attack. matter of fact, we trained with striking pads regularly to make sure folks feel the strike and the level of power driving behind it.

Cool that your going all out with the Shomen attacks using pads, etc.

However... what happens when a trained striker or even grappler/wrestler comes up and you dont get a chance to execute Shomen - better yet, is there ever a chance in this scenario to use Shomen?

Only way to know is try it out with a trained grappler/wrestler and/or Thai Boxer and post it on youtube.
[Im curious and would love to see it 'live']

Again I like taking the Aikido moves to the max within that framework, but there is a lot that gets lost once the door opens up.

Peace

Dalen

[chillzATL]

He did not shoot? That is certainly a 'Shoot' decision in a Shoot? no Shoot? situation. :crazy:

Greg

oh no, he did and the guy survived. It's just one of those things in aikido that I've heard "when is someone ever going to come at me with a sword"... crazy can happen anywhere!

[phitruong]

However... what happens when a trained striker or even grappler/wrestler comes up and you dont get a chance to execute Shomen - better yet, is there ever a chance in this scenario to use Shomen?
Dalen

shomen isn't the only thing in my tool box. years ago i sparred with a Taewondo guy, Olympic caliber. He could throw an axe kick, which is pretty like a shomen uchi but with the feet, faster than i could throw a jab. he was lightning on feet. he knocked me and pretty much everyone on his/her ass with that kick. in kaitennage, have you thought of the hand on top of the head could be a shomen strike to the back of the neck? or elbow comes up the center line follow with a hammer fist comes down the same line. then there is the flying knee from muay thai to the face. oh did i mention that i belong to the anything-goes school of martial arts? :)

[gregstec]

oh no, he did and the guy survived. It's just one of those things in aikido that I've heard "when is someone ever going to come at me with a sword"... crazy can happen anywhere!

OK, that makes more sense - it just sounded like he took him down by hand, which really would have been crazy to try :)

Greg

[Kevin Leavitt]

Now that I have an iPad, I see how shomen might be useful if I need to use the edge of my iPad as a weapon.

[Marc Abrams]

Now that I have an iPad, I see how shomen might be useful if I need to use the edge of my iPad as a weapon.

Kevin:

Is your iPad Steven Seagal approved?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbRMqd3n3-o

;)

Marc Abrams

[phitruong]

Now that I have an iPad, I see how shomen might be useful if I need to use the edge of my iPad as a weapon.

just saw advertisement of aikido 3D for iPad. you could just load up the app and show your attacker(s) the techniques that you are planning to do on them. that would scare them off right there and then. don't forget to use your Glock as the pointer. :)

[mathewjgano]

just saw advertisement of aikido 3D for iPad. you could just load up the app and show your attacker(s) the techniques that you are planning to do on them. that would scare them off right there and then. don't forget to use your Glock as the pointer. :)

The all new Glock lazer-pointer! For all your presentation needs! Enter your sales meeting with renewed confidence as people suddenly see things your way with the kind of clarity only a Glock product can produce!
:D

[Janet Rosen]

I had to set my Glock ahead an hour and it totally messed with everything this week.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

just saw advertisement of aikido 3D for iPad. you could just load up the app and show your attacker(s) the techniques that you are planning to do on them. that would scare them off right there and then. don't forget to use your Glock as the pointer. :)

http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/mobile.html

:D

[matty_mojo911]

i do not know how you train in striking, but for me, i can strike you with any number of attacks and won't over extend or lose my balance. if you practice with me, i can guarantee you that my shomen uchi is an attack. matter of fact, we trained with striking pads regularly to make sure folks feel the strike and the level of power driving behind it.

I think the point has been missed, the person you have replied to has basicaly said that Shomen isn't really a strike that you would use.

shomen is a strike that you would use in the dojo, but if you get in a proper scrap there are 100 other strikes that are better. A shomen is a simple simulation of downwards energy, and is fine for that, you may even do this really, really hard - fine. But if I had to strike someone for real there are better things to do. Don't translate the dojo to the real world, to do so missleads the students. Uderstand the difference between the two and teach accordingly.

[Walter Martindale]

I had to set my Glock ahead an hour and it totally messed with everything this week.

is that a "glockolate" bar? got too warm in the daylight and melted?

http://www.chocolateweapons.com/

:D

[Janet Rosen]

is that a "glockolate" bar? got too warm in the daylight and melted?

http://www.chocolateweapons.com/

:D

Well I had to Luger around with me all day in my pocket, so yeah, it melted....:)

[jdostie]

I think the point has been missed, the person you have replied to has basicaly said that Shomen isn't really a strike that you would use.

shomen is a strike that you would use in the dojo, but if you get in a proper scrap there are 100 other strikes that are better. A shomen is a simple simulation of downwards energy, and is fine for that, you may even do this really, really hard - fine. But if I had to strike someone for real there are better things to do. Don't translate the dojo to the real world, to do so missleads the students. Uderstand the difference between the two and teach accordingly.

The most obvious shomen like strike is a beer bottle to the head in a barfight or something.

To say noone would choose a certain attack for reason a, b, or c assumes a certain orientation or experience of the attacker. To say 'this is not the best attack' for reason a, b, or c, might absolutely be valid, but it in no way indicates that the attack won't be used. $.02 from my perspective - which is worth about the same.

[sakumeikan]

The most obvious shomen like strike is a beer bottle to the head in a barfight or something.

To say noone would choose a certain attack for reason a, b, or c assumes a certain orientation or experience of the attacker. To say 'this is not the best attack' for reason a, b, or c, might absolutely be valid, but it in no way indicates that the attack won't be used. $.02 from my perspective - which is worth about the same.

Dear Joseph,
Any beer bottle being used in a fight should of course be empty!! This is usually my opening gambit in relation to coaching newbies.My other advice is this if you are unfortunate to be attacked by a mad axeman ,and the gent lands one on your head , please leave said axe in place.This restricts the blood flow.Bandage around the weapon, do not remove it.Cheers, Joe

[Alic]

The most obvious shomen like strike is a beer bottle to the head in a barfight or something.

To say noone would choose a certain attack for reason a, b, or c assumes a certain orientation or experience of the attacker. To say 'this is not the best attack' for reason a, b, or c, might absolutely be valid, but it in no way indicates that the attack won't be used. $.02 from my perspective - which is worth about the same.

Well, why else would we train with it then :p

Obviously attacks will come down the centreline. The shomen uchi is just a generalized simulated strike down that line, so that we can train to react against it. The sword cut, beer bottle bat, heavy metal bat, 2x4 plywood, iron pipe, hammerfist, etc. can all come down the centreline. So attacks do go through the same motion. If it didn't, we wouldn't even bother to have it in the course syllabus.

The key point I'm trying to make that it's not really an Aikido attack. "Aikido doesn't have any attacks!"... pure bull. It came from Daito-ryu, of course it has attacks. We just don't use them often. But when we do use attacks, I'm pretty certain all of you good folks of yudansha level must have better strikes than shomen uchi.

If not... well, time to ask sensei for atemi lessons :D

[Kevin Leavitt]

On the whole thing of "Aikido doesn't have attacks".....

I think it is a bit of romanticism that "briefs well" when waxing poetically about the philosophy that is subscribe to aikido. It is a great vision to have for sure.

You could say the same thing about pretty much all jiu jitsu based arts really.

Jiu Jitsu is essentially used and was used in combat in days of yore when "all else failed", or you cannot draw your weapon. Hence, you do not have the upper hand. Or in clinical terms, you are behind your opponents OODA loop.

This means that you are REACTING to SOMETHING that has been done to you in some way and you are trying to re-establish your dominance, center, or in clinical terms...get back ahead of your opponents OODA loop.

Based on that, you could say that Aikido or any type of jiu jitsu does not have attacks!

However, IMO, once you've regained control of the situation and you are past the point of control, anything you do to your opponent is an "Attack".

Even in iriminage, once you irimi and control your opponent...and then enter again to put him down...well at that point you are "attacking".

Attacks don't have to be kicks or strikes, they can be any number of things meant to pre-empt or prevent your opponent from regaining control.

now, we can argue about the ethics of use of force of various things from shooting someone, to choking them, to simply pinning them all day long, but IMO, once we've crossed that line and gain control...any further action is an "attack".

So, I think it is nonsense and/or hypocritical to say Aikido does not have attacks.

[Marc Abrams]

The expression "Aikido does not have attacks" will go the way of the dodo bird....:D

Marc Abrams

[phitruong]

The expression "Aikido does not have attacks" will go the way of the dodo bird....:D

Marc Abrams

'em tasted like chicken, more so like free range chicken, which is a sort of a cowboy chicken but without the cow which tasted like beef. :D

[jdostie]

Jiu Jitsu is essentially used and was used in combat in days of yore when "all else failed", or you cannot draw your weapon. Hence, you do not have the upper hand. Or in clinical terms, you are behind your opponents OODA loop.


Exposing my ignorance here: What's "OODA?"

[Demetrio Cereijo]

OODA loop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop)

BTW, I think reading John Boyd works (And Osinga's "Science Strategy and War, The Strategic Theory of John Boyd") should be mandatoy for every serious martial artist.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Sorry, I probably should referenced OODA. However, the reason I don't is got tired of doing it AND if you really care to understand you'll either go look it up, or ask the question "hey what is OODA!". Tells me alot if you are asking the question (in a good way!).

Thanks for the references Demetrio. Keep in mind that OODA is not about empty handed martial arts, but it still applies. Read it carefully, and think about it. IMO, it will unlock the secret between good practice and bad. If you understand OODA and it's importance, then you will be able to make correct decisions about evaluating your training!

[jdostie]

Thanks, I've seen similar - though different - takes on this with different acronyms. The first one that came to mind was Awareness, Assesment, and Action, which Julio Toribio (seibukan jujutsu) talked about in a seminar a few years ago.

I almost "googled" it, but asked instead, not from laziness, for whatever reason I decided to just ask.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Glad you asked! yeah others have reached the same conclusions. Boyd simply did alot of PhD level work on the concept for the Air Force and did a very in depth analysis on it.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I wrote three blog post on OODA several years ago.

http://www.budo-warrior.com/?s=OODA

[jdostie]

That's good stuff. I identify with your point about randori.

I HATE randori because I'm so bad at it, and yet I know that if we did randori more often I'd be all the better for it.

Someone recently asked me if I were in a fight, would I use jujutsu (something I have trained in longer) or aikido. My first response was that I'd probably use jujutsu-as I've done that for longer, but then I realized the answer is neither one, I'd use what 'felt' right at any given moment. I'd be using the OODA loop, and picking and choosing from both arts, and probably anything else that might come to mind.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks for sharing. One thing about the OODA loop that is brought to life is that a 90 year old lady could beat up Anderson $ilva if she understand the principles and can stay ahead of his. It is not so much about the skill, but understanding the principles and how to beat your opponent.

So yes, you use whatever you have. Skill does come into play, especially when you are behind and must work to get back ahead.

[Garth]

Thanks for sharing. One thing about the OODA loop that is brought to life is that a 90 year old lady could beat up Anderson $ilva if she understand the principles and can stay ahead of his. It is not so much about the skill, but understanding the principles and how to beat your opponent.

So yes, you use whatever you have. Skill does come into play, especially when you are behind and must work to get back ahead.

Excellent as usual Kevin. I have done this for 21 years or so without knowing the term.
It was combat but not usually with other humans. PM me if you really want to know.
Leave it to the military to codify stuff!

My question or observation would be (from actual real world here , no speculating) is that you don't want to get stuck in the first three of the loop and you don't want to get dead either. And it takes quite a bit of "training" so the first three become automatic or "second nature".
Or do we accept death pass Go and collect $200. The people who have done this , it seems have skipped 1,2,3 and a lot of times are quite successful at 4.
But there is also a lot of new graves that were never acknowledged for jumping directly to 4
There are what would seem to be "naturals" in this world at first glance, but upon scrutiny reveals a lot relative hard work
Thanks. I'm going to train now to try and reveal what is on the inside
Greg

[Michael Varin]

A lot of bad mouthing of shomen uchi. . .

I think that a lack of understanding of shomen uchi and yokomen uchi, both on the raise and cut, greatly contribute to the difficulty that so many aikidoists seem to encounter in fielding strikes of all kinds.

In fact, I think that one could safely call shomen uchi the most basic movement of the hands in aikido.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Greg, thanks.

Agreed. We want to get to 4 or ACT as quick as we can. Training, in theory is what will get us there with the appropriate response, hopefully.

Tony Blauer spend a lot of time on the startle/flinch reflex, which is a natural reaction to a unknown assault. Tony tries to embrace this natural response and turn it into something positive. That is when u are hit or receive force, you don't process it, you respond instinctively.

I use the hot stove analogy, when we touch it we go ouch and pull away. We act without orienting or deciding it just happens. In my combatives class, I tell the guys that I am going to teach you essentially to do the opposite which is to push into the stove ( go forward) and not pull away.

So, I spend a lot of time on developing macro reflexes in empty handed work of forming frames and driving into the fight as a initial instinct. This ACT phase hopefully get you to disrupt your opponents ACT phase and then allows you to start doing what you do to get ahead of the loop.

Yes, so I think as you state, you accept death and pass go, if you get that far. You really don't have a choice.

My statement about a 90 year old woman beating up Anderson Sliva is kinda tongue in cheek, but in theory, yes. If she gets the jump. Say he is on a park bench reading the paper, she sneaks up hits him with a bat and down he goes. He never had time to ACT, nor the other three phases. Such
It is with circus ponies, but I think we need to put things in perspective on the spectrum. Of course if he does recover and can act my bet is based on his skill level that he will most likely ACT and get ahead of her and end the fight.

The point is, that it is not always about the level of skill someone has. As you state, audacity, speed, surprise, and overwhelming force matter a lot. Street thugs may have very little actual skill, comparable to you and me and even Ueshiba in his day. But they do understand OODA and how to apply basic tactics to win. So while techincial skills are important, I believe in reality they are relegated to a lower priority in reality if fighting.

So why do anything at all? Well it comes down to fight management and being able to recover once you have the chance. Given all else equal, we need skills to exploit what SMALL opportunities we have. I don't know about u but I want to have every chance I can at succeeding.

Also on the spectrum of knowledge of OO phases, it is not always about the ambush. I'd say most of the situations I have been involved in, I had much knowledge about what I was entering and had the ON switch up. Having my Jiu Jitsu knowledge (JJ includes Aikido) put me in a situation in which I could disrupt the OO phase of my potential adversary to close down the gaps and keep him from ACTing. Most of these situation never evolved and I'll never know what might of transpired if anything, but I like to believe that I have avoided a lot of trouble.

It is a complex dance really I think.

I don't subscribe to the 20 year thinking. I can teach someone to win fights or at a least understand what it takes to win a fight in a matter of a few weeks. If you can understand OODA then you can understand the basics on how to ACT and win a fight.

Now size, condition, and age are a couple of factors that can enter into the mix for sure. So it is also a loaded proposition! But go back to the 90 year old lady.

So, we can practice JJ to level out some of those things to gain skills over the long haul. If nothing else recognize the limits of our abilities and understand the risk we expose ourselves to, which is just as important. If we can minimize our exposure, then we are ACTing before something occurs.

I spend a lot of time in Africa these days. One thing that has come apparent it the risk
Are always there. I have to insert myself into the risk, I have no choice to do my job. ( by the way, I carry no weapon). However, I've come to understand that I can't control my exposure, but I simply need to keep the bad guys on the negative side of the cost/benefit ratio. In other words, to out run the bear, you don't have to be the fastest person, just faster than the slowest guy. Hence, I simply need to make it not worth the bad guys while to mug me. It could be crossing the street, staying in crowds, unpredictable behavior, etc. Just staying on the right side of the equation is all that matters.

So, I think that budo is very important if we take the time to understand all the levels and variables that go into our training. Some stuff will take like 20 years, other stuff, we can learn in the first couple of days of training. Like I said, we can teach someone to fight in weeks, not years.

The problem is new students coming out of a institutional learning model of superficial rote learning modalities, want to look at the technical curriculum of Aikido, TKD, BJJ or any number of martial arts and simply apply the formula without regard to the dynamics of a fight. Aikido the way it is trained is very subject to this dissonance. Sure kote gaeshi will work in a fight, so will iriminage. We can't though ignore the importance of OODA, as you state the ACT phase. We certainly cannot apply the timeline or continuum of how we perform those things in the dojo and expect things to go well.

Keep in mind that our primary goal in Aikido is not about teaching people how to fight. We have range of body types and ages etc. In military organizations you don't have this. In fedual japan you were not teaching 50 year old accountants to beat Tito Ortiz. No you had young, conditioned warriors that were going to fight the same. So all else equal, jiu jitsi was very important when you want that edge in combat.

In our dojos today, the same cost/benefit ratio does not apply. As a 50 year old accountant, we really have very little reason to master jiu jitsu or Aikido for the original intended purposes. But if it calls to use, we like it, then there are some real benefits to be gained from training. I think we can all recognize these otherwise we would not be doing it.

So to close, I think once you can understand OODA and all that, you can begin to see how budo and Aikido fit into the equation and you can begin to see that simple questions like "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" are not so easy to answer as yes/no.

[Garth]

,"I don't subscribe to the 20 year thinking. I can teach someone to win fights or at a least understand what it takes to win a fight in a matter of a few weeks. If you can understand OODA then you can understand the basics on how to ACT and win a fight.""

Thanx
But also I didn't say it took me twenty years to do and it was not people I was always fighting with.
And the better teacher/mentor you had the quicker the awareness of the awareness you needed was developed. As a matter of fact these paradigms can be built into any sport, endeavor, what have you.
The closer you are to life and death the faster it should happen, big money can be supplanted as a motivator(I.e.sports) in the athletes mind anyway..
I don't subscribe to the 20 year model either because sh@t happens and usually to me probabably because of a malfunction of O and O. You survive , maybe luck or you make your own luck
Good, no. Great cutting to the core of the matter.
G

[Kevin Leavitt]

Sorry, wasn't implying that you said it takes 20 years. Just that it commonly it is stated that it takes 20 years.

Thanks again!

[Kifusion]

I have trained in Aikido for a year now and I soon learned that static gripping during training is great for Ki Cultivation. Many people I know have critisized the Aikido mainly because of the way people train.

My instructor has done Aikido for over 30 years and he is living proof that channelling Ki to perform various techniques will work without resorting to physical strength.

If you use physical strength to perform a technique it is clearly NOT going to work against somebody who is either the same strength or stronger than you are. I admit that I still need repetitive practice to eventually get a good grasp of Ki and this will take years and I plan to stick with it.

Finally my instructor keeps mentioning that you must be in the form of relaxation to effectively channel out Ki. I enjoy this martial art more than Karate and kickboxing as these two arts are very forceful from experience. Not saying that these arts have no merit, they are just not my thing.

[Benjamin Green]

If you use physical strength to perform a technique it is clearly NOT going to work against somebody who is either the same strength or stronger than you are.

There are positions that support the use of large muscle groups and positions that don't. The aim of the game is to be in a position to leverage the greatest portion of your strength while, ideally, placing him in a position where he can't do the same.

Or so the answer to that would go.

:)

[Kifusion]

There are positions that support the use of large muscle groups and positions that don't. The aim of the game is to be in a position to leverage the greatest portion of your strength while, ideally, placing him in a position where he can't do the same.

Or so the answer to that would go.

:)

yeah but the only problem is that the moment your opponent (or partner) feels your strength he/she will resist. If you are relaxed and utilise Ki it will be harder for them to stop you. This can be evidenced through static gripping such as katatetori where the moment you use strength anyone strong enough can stop you by resisting.This tends to happen when you mind and body are together, which is not how me and the other students are trained :)

[GMaroda]

Oh thread, how I've missed you!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Me too...my favorite.

Good point on proprioception .Matthew....if you can reduce it, then you can do things without triggering a response.

[Benjamin Green]

yeah but the only problem is that the moment your opponent (or partner) feels your strength he/she will resist. If you are relaxed and utilise Ki it will be harder for them to stop you. This can be evidenced through static gripping such as katatetori where the moment you use strength anyone strong enough can stop you by resisting.This tends to happen when you mind and body are together, which is not how me and the other students are trained :)

There is something to be said for not just grabbing someone and trying to man-handle them around. And in not tensing up everything at once and making yourself unable to move. However, people don't feel strength, they feel force. It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.

It's like if someone grabs your wrist to stop you moving it forwards - if you hold your wrist straight and just try and push into them it's very hard - if you rotate your wrist it's fairly easy. If they rotate their wrist the other way it's hard again. Nothing to do with ki, just different muscle groups with different degrees of tension being put through them.

I suspect a lot of the problem people have with the idea of strength is that they think it should feel like they're putting a lot of effort in. And of course to feel like you're putting a lot of effort in, frequently, you have to tension opposing muscle groups to get enough resistance to push against - which results in less overall force being generated in the desired direction.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Oh thread, how I've missed you!

That is not dead which can eternal lie...

:D

[Michael Douglas]

Thread Necro which contains this gem might not end well ;
...If you use physical strength to perform a technique it is clearly NOT going to work against somebody who is either the same strength or stronger than you are.
Here's a very quick proof.
Pick one of your training partners who is stronger than you.
Punch them on the jaw in such a way as to knock them unconscious.
You have disproved your statement.

Oh :eek: Did you mean wrist-grippy Aikido waza without atemi? Sorry.
Still a false statement.

[Kifusion]

There is something to be said for not just grabbing someone and trying to man-handle them around. And in not tensing up everything at once and making yourself unable to move. However, people don't feel strength, they feel force. It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.

It's like if someone grabs your wrist to stop you moving it forwards - if you hold your wrist straight and just try and push into them it's very hard - if you rotate your wrist it's fairly easy. If they rotate their wrist the other way it's hard again. Nothing to do with ki, just different muscle groups with different degrees of tension being put through them.

I suspect a lot of the problem people have with the idea of strength is that they think it should feel like they're putting a lot of effort in. And of course to feel like you're putting a lot of effort in, frequently, you have to tension opposing muscle groups to get enough resistance to push against - which results in less overall force being generated in the desired direction.

Good point of view. at the same time it does teach us how to blend with the other persons energy as opposed to clashing with it.

The static gripping that is usually thought at the dojo looks like it is has no martial application from another persons persepctive. That is true when looking at what is likely to happen in the real world, however over time these static gripping (or ki exercises as described by my sensei) will help you in all other techniques. With enough Ki cultivated over time, you will be amazed at what you can do later on. :D

[Kifusion]

Thread Necro which contains this gem might not end well ;

Here's a very quick proof.
Pick one of your training partners who is stronger than you.
Punch them on the jaw in such a way as to knock them unconscious.
You have disproved your statement.

Oh :eek: Did you mean wrist-grippy Aikido waza without atemi? Sorry.
Still a false statement.

Yes I meant sawari waza as well as katate-tori without atemi (or striking).

[Kifusion]

A lot of bad mouthing of shomen uchi. . .

I think that a lack of understanding of shomen uchi and yokomen uchi, both on the raise and cut, greatly contribute to the difficulty that so many aikidoists seem to encounter in fielding strikes of all kinds.

In fact, I think that one could safely call shomen uchi the most basic movement of the hands in aikido.

Yes i agree that many people do not understand the reasons for training against yokomen and shomen attacks. The reason for training againsts duch attacks are to train you not to "avoid" the attack as attackers will follow you the moment they see you move off the "centre line" prematurely.

I found that entering in (irimi) and moving your opponent off the centre line (after the attack) at the last moment is one of the best ways to deal with it, as opposed to trying to avoid (the exeception being shomen avoidance). also shomen striking is derived from the sword and put in place by Ueshiba for a reason.

This is hard to explain without actually seeing it for yourself, but hope this makes some sense . :)

[Dave de Vos]

It doesn't matter how that force gets there - whether it's ki or body mechanics or what have you. If you're applying the same magnitude of force at the same angle, they're going to feel it the same.


True, but I think that a person with aiki does not apply the same magnitude of force at the same angle. So it feels different from normal body mechanics. Whether one calls it body mechanics, ki or aiki is just a matter of words.

[Kevin Leavitt]

for reality...Aiki matters.

It matters when it matters.

When you start talking reality, OODA, IMO, matters first and for most. If you are ahead and beating your opponent and can continue to stay ahead, it really doesn't matter how you do it, be it fist, baseball bat, or what not.

However, if you are behind, or trying to stay ahead, Aiki can matter greatly and change the situation greatly.

Aiki, simply put can keep your opponent disorient, prevent them from indexing or orienting. It can also provide you strength in an area or position in which can normally be considered a disadvantage.

For me, it is all realitive in the overall picture...how much it matters.

[jdm4life]

Joe rogan agrees with you.

Watch "Joe Rogan vs Aikido Guy on Effectiveness of Aikido" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/yXIBi_lszsg

[rugwithlegs]

Joe rogan agrees with you.

Watch "Joe Rogan vs Aikido Guy on Effectiveness of Aikido" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/yXIBi_lszsg

Why is Joe Rogan an authority on Aikido? Besides, the guy they found to defend us as an art - "I don't know the founder's name, he's called O'Sensei". Accent on the "O'" as in O'Connor, or O'Neil or other Celtic derived names. And, mention of magically throwing guys without touching them. Our "representative" hasn't trained much, and he is making mistakes I would correct in someone's first class.

Me saying I have used Aikido in combat (true) does not mean I categorically insist all Aikido people are combat ready - apart from the difference in people, we seem to have a very wide variety of teachers and schools with no central authority. We argue amongst ourselves about what Aikido is.

My belief that Aikido is a good martial art does not mean that I am refusing to learn techniques from other arts, or that I am insulting other martial artists. The loudest groups are not real combat either. I am increasingly more disgusted with manipulative fear-based marketing campaigns. Too many schools are trying to act like the candidates in the American presidential race, a winner take all at all costs discussion with no attempt to be truthful.

My own teacher was a Japanese student of O Sensei, and he was quite proficient in sacrifice throws, atemi, kansetsu, he knew how to hurt or kill people with his art, and many items now "controversial" in Aikido or declared not Aikido by some groups. I do open myself up to "questions" with my own students, so did my teacher.

[silversmoke]

This may have been said before but obviously the guy who made the original post has never come across Positive Aikido, I was taught by Sensei Henry Ellis strikes and kicks were included in the techniques, Mr Ellis was a student of Kenshiro Abbé sensei who introduced Aikido into the UK, I worked on the doors of a very busy nightclub in Bournemouth UK for 5years, Aikido works in a live situation fullstop.

[Walter Martindale]

Wow... 15 year-old thread resurrected once again. I guess I've been fortunate. 8 years of judo, 17 years of aikido (none since 2011, unfortunately), never had occasion to "test" aikido outside of the dojo.

[rugwithlegs]

Wow... 15 year-old thread resurrected once again. I guess I've been fortunate. 8 years of judo, 17 years of aikido (none since 2011, unfortunately), never had occasion to "test" aikido outside of the dojo.

I guess what we write outlives us more than what we do. Some excellent discussions have only a couple of responses, and this has nearly 2000. The subject is pervasive and the questions are timeless and widespread. It would probably take an even longer thread to discuss why that is and who do we blame for this relatively (compared to other arts) widespread poor opinion.

A junior student pulled some boneheaded very public crap that nearly got our dojo sued, quit our dojo to join a Krav school, became an instructor in a matter of weeks, then engaged in a bunch of brainless social media bashing of his friends and Aikido, and now has recently asked to return to Aikido. For the third-fourth time. Maybe I am a little sensitive/bored/frustrated/angry.

I remember you having no hesitation to "have a discussion about Judo" back in the day Walter. ;) I owe a great deal to your patience and generosity.

[jdm4life]

Why is Joe Rogan an authority on Aikido? Besides, the guy they found to defend us as an art - "I don't know the founder's name, he's called O'Sensei". Accent on the "O'" as in O'Connor, or O'Neil or other Celtic derived names. And, mention of magically throwing guys without touching them. Our "representative" hasn't trained much, and he is making mistakes I would correct in someone's first class.

Me saying I have used Aikido in combat (true) does not mean I categorically insist all Aikido people are combat ready - apart from the difference in people, we seem to have a very wide variety of teachers and schools with no central authority. We argue amongst ourselves about what Aikido is.

My belief that Aikido is a good martial art does not mean that I am refusing to learn techniques from other arts, or that I am insulting other martial artists. The loudest groups are not real combat either. I am increasingly more disgusted with manipulative fear-based marketing campaigns. Too many schools are trying to act like the candidates in the American presidential race, a winner take all at all costs discussion with no attempt to be truthful.

My own teacher was a Japanese student of O Sensei, and he was quite proficient in sacrifice throws, atemi, kansetsu, he knew how to hurt or kill people with his art, and many items now "controversial" in Aikido or declared not Aikido by some groups. I do open myself up to "questions" with my own students, so did my teacher.

Maybe the fact he isn't an authority on aikido says more than you realise, ie you don't have to be an expert on it to see it's major flaws...who knows.

[Mary Eastland]

Or just maybe Aikido is not about sport....but really about self defense and that is really hard to measure.

[jdm4life]

Or just maybe Aikido is not about sport....but really about self defense and that is really hard to measure.

Its about neither surely?

I think that was joe rogans point........in simplest of terms, it doesnt work........its far too technical to be of much use if your attacked and the rose tinted specs worn in dojos give a false sense that its of any use in reality.

Seeing someone flying to the ground when one arm is raised, it doesnt take a genius to see why it gets subjected to such criticism. The attacks are completely unrealistic to be if any use unless your luxky enough to have somebody attack you pretending their arm is a sword.

It may have been derived from ju jutsu but that isnt good enough....ju jutsu isnt what is practiced in a club. Also saying they are sword movements also means little in reality, outside of practice.

My view is there may be too much complacency in training, uke doing the uke role...and being too soft..... if its regarded as bad etiquette to give too much resistance then whats the point? If people get annoyed if their technique is blocked then that says it all.......you can say to a real attacker, sorry can you come at me again but next time you punch be sure to leave your arm out so I can do some aikido and everybody goes home enlightened.



Im sure philosophy wont often save you a beating.

[jdm4life]

Either its self defense or it isnt, you cant have it both ways.....ie totally unrealistic attacks drilled over and over then say oh well you obviously dont understand or you are not qualified to comment on aikido on its effectiveness.

Id like to see people who would be regarded as an authority debate all this and finally get some logical discussion and explanations because it just goes on and on and doesnt get any nearer. If people want to understand, then their questions should be given attention.

YouTube type debates just end up in the same place.....a shouting match with comments like.....aikido is bullshit...that kind of thing........it doesnt work.......etc etc. Not very useful, why doesnt it work? Why does It work? How woukd it work in this situation or that situation, would it be effective if this happened or that happens, all speculation but it would lead to more understanding.

Weve all seen these fake Chinese chi master videos and its unfair that aikido to be put in the same box as them.

Ive seen beginners say, well why would somebody grab your wrist and keep hold?

Indeed.

They are stopping your trying to draw a sword.

Sorry, a sword? What sword?

Indeed.

Things may have been derived from that concept but what use is that now? None?

You could explain to the beginner, these are used in order to learn the basics so that they can be applied to other situations, although that may be true...its also a bit of a cop out.

Excuse the rant....im just in a mood but still.....there are a lot of things Id like to be explained properly in aikido that are left or given the same responses.

Say on a car forum....one person has a certain type of car eg...a vw golf and joins a forum for enthusiasts of another car, eg a ford fiesta...he thinks his car is better and says, your car is rubbish, mine drives better and is faster and would beat yours around a track.............
Have you ever driven one if these cars?
Well, No but I know mind is better.

Them types of interactions arent worth the energy.

[kewms]

If someone grabs your wrist, there's a good chance a punch with the other hand is coming next. And so the initial move is intended to disrupt that punch. If they can still hit you with the other hand after your entry, then you did the initial move wrong and trying to apply a technique from there is pointless.

If your technique only works on someone who leaves their arm hanging out there to manipulate, then you probably need to spend more time worrying about controlling their body movement.

If you're looking for logical discussion (of anything) on YouTube, you're wasting time that would be better spent seeking out better in-person teachers.

Katherine

[Walter Martindale]

Izumi sensei used to say that it's really dangerous to have your wrist grabbed as Katherine points out. Or your lapel. A punch or stab may be following and the grab is to distract you and give the other hand more freedom of movement. That some dojo don't practice as if attackers are armed and/or attacking with malice is not the fault of aikido, it is the fault of those dojo and their sensei and sempai.

John... I REALLY TRIED to limit my reference to past judo experiences to the point where Kawahara used to complain at me that he'd wanted to see me use judo during my grading tests and was disappointed that I didn't... You saw me mostly when I was a beginner in Saskatoon. Now I'm a beginner with 17 years of practice and 5 not practicing. The dojo around here train when I'm at work

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Wow... 15 year-old thread resurrected once again.

That is not dead which can eternal lie...

[Walter Martindale]

That is not dead which can eternal lie...

brains.. brains.. eat... brains... (not sure why but in north america there's a great long and boring fantasy about 'undead' zombies as depicted in some really old b-movie)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I think the b-movie zombies are a representation of commies.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Joe rogan agrees with you.

Watch "Joe Rogan vs Aikido Guy on Effectiveness of Aikido" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/yXIBi_lszsg

OK, I'll bite..

Who amongst you is going to show Rogan how wrong he is?

[PeterR]

OK, I'll bite..

Who amongst you is going to show Rogan how wrong he is?

Joe who? The Podcast guy?

[jdm4life]

OK, I'll bite..

Who amongst you is going to show Rogan how wrong he is?

He has a black belt in BJJ.....not me.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

He has a black belt in BJJ....
And?

[jdm4life]

And?

And taekwando

[Demetrio Cereijo]

LOL

You got me.

[rugwithlegs]

I liked him better when he was making people eat deer penises on Fear Factor. Sell Out!

[mathewjgano]

OK, I'll bite..

Who amongst you is going to show Rogan how wrong he is?

I totally would, but I got this thing at a place...and then after that I got this other thing...and these posts aren't going to type themselves. Very busy schedule you see, or I totally would. :D

To my mind, the issue of whether or not something is going to "work in a fight" comes down to a caveat or two: against whom, under what circumstances, etc.?

[Rupert Atkinson]

Aikido - the techniques - as people know it to be - is not supposed to work in a fight. It is not Ai-ki-do; it is Aiki-do = The Way of Aiki -- a way to develop aiki. The techniques of Aiki-do are meant to help develop aiki. They are not techniques useful for fighting per se. I have been thinking, searching, messing with this for quite some time. There is the soft 'fluffy' type of aiki and there is a harder 'active' type that is practical. Both are necessary but the harder type is definitely good for fighting, if that is what you want to do.

Is there anybody out there ...

[Amir Krause]

Aikido - the techniques - as people know it to be - is not supposed to work in a fight. It is not Ai-ki-do; it is Aiki-do = The Way of Aiki -- a way to develop aiki. The techniques of Aiki-do are meant to help develop aiki. They are not techniques useful for fighting per se. I have been thinking, searching, messing with this for quite some time. There is the soft 'fluffy' type of aiki and there is a harder 'active' type that is practical. Both are necessary but the harder type is definitely good for fighting, if that is what you want to do.

Is there anybody out there ...

Almost all techniques in Aikido are not unique, same techniques may be found in jujutsu and were used for fighting. Very similar techniques exist in various other fighting styles. It's not the techniques, it is how you train \ practice. And different places teach different things ...

Still amazed this old thread had come up again :o

[jdm4life]

Almost all techniques in Aikido are not unique, same techniques may be found in jujutsu and were used for fighting. Very similar techniques exist in various other fighting styles. It's not the techniques, it is how you train \ practice. And different places teach different things ...

Still amazed this old thread had come up again :o

It comes up time and again because the same questions still arise about aikido and its purpose, effectiveness................ saying its not about fighting to people who practice is pointless........ Humans look for meaning and logic and aikido means different things to different people.........but why was it developed in the first place....in a post war era.......the emphasis may have been directed towards hugging trees and being nice, but the reality of the modern day contradicts that philosophy because there are a lot of nasty shits out there who hurt people on a daily basis...... peoples argument stands unchallenged or at least unexplained, its incomplete.

Aikido doesnt work in a fight.............depending how you approach that statement depends where the discussion goes......we know it isn't a fighting system...if you say aikido is of no use if you are attacked.....then what?

All that is a moot point aswell because I dont get into fights, I dont look to get into fights, Id avoid it at all costs but knowing your are participating in a self defense art that "could" get you out of a scrape if that situation ever presented itself feels better than knowing you are practicing a martial art which will be of no use to you whatsoever.

Despite or in spite of.

[Amir Krause]

It comes up time and again because the same questions still arise about aikido and its purpose, effectiveness................ saying its not about fighting to people who practice is pointless........ Humans look for meaning and logic and aikido means different things to different people.........but why was it developed in the first place....in a post war era.......the emphasis may have been directed towards hugging trees and being nice, but the reality of the modern day contradicts that philosophy because there are a lot of nasty shits out there who hurt people on a daily basis...... peoples argument stands unchallenged or at least unexplained, its incomplete.

Aikido doesnt work in a fight.............depending how you approach that statement depends where the discussion goes......we know it isn't a fighting system...if you say aikido is of no use if you are attacked.....then what?

All that is a moot point aswell because I dont get into fights, I dont look to get into fights, Id avoid it at all costs but knowing your are participating in a self defense art that "could" get you out of a scrape if that situation ever presented itself feels better than knowing you are practicing a martial art which will be of no use to you whatsoever.

Despite or in spite of.

As someone who found interest in aikido history, trying to figure out the history of the Aikido I keep learning (Korindo Aikido) and it's connection to Ueshiba:
Ueshiba Aikido was mostly developed before WWII. It's true, the art kept changing, but it's doubtful the techniques themselves were changed. Especially since as pointed out before, same techniques appear in multiple Ju-Jutsu styles, and other systems have them too.

Hence - it's not the techniques, nor the history. It's the practitioner mindset, and those change across sub-styles, teachers and students. Some places teach Aikido which wouldn't work in a fight, others teach Aikido which could work, just like any other M.A. - if the student is good enough.

[lbb]

Again with this thread?

If you keep biting on the same old stinky bait, that should tell you something, shouldn't it?

[kewms]

Some of the post-war aikido students used to work as strike breakers. Others used to go to the bars where longshoremen hung out and pick fights just to "see if this stuff works."

I do not personally recommend this strategy...

If you think aikido is "of no use whatsoever," why are you here?

Ultimately, the question is impossible to answer via an internet forum. Find a willing partner, think of a scenario that seems reasonable to you, and see what happens.

Katherine

[jdm4life]

Some of the post-war aikido students used to work as strike breakers. Others used to go to the bars where longshoremen hung out and pick fights just to "see if this stuff works."

I do not personally recommend this strategy...

If you think aikido is "of no use whatsoever," why are you here?

Ultimately, the question is impossible to answer via an internet forum. Find a willing partner, think of a scenario that seems reasonable to you, and see what happens.

Katherine

I dont, I just find it strange that its subjected to so much scrutiny and not just by people who have never been to a practice session.

[kewms]

There is a certain fraction of the aikido community that tends to look down their noses at students of other martial arts in general and combat sports in particular. The more vocal one is about "resolving conflicts without fighting," the more scrutiny one's ability (or lack thereof) is likely to attract. Especially among people whose fighting ability is an important part of their self-image.

There are also some demonstrations of aikido out there -- some of them by people with big numbers after their names -- that are frankly embarrassing, even to aikidoka. Someone who has personal experience with karate will be able to dismiss the bad karate videos that exist, but won't have any context for the bad aikido videos.

Katherine

[jdm4life]

There are also some demonstrations of aikido out there -- some of them by people with big numbers after their names -- that are frankly embarrassing, even to aikidoka. Someone who has personal experience with karate will be able to dismiss the bad karate videos that exist, but won't have any context for the bad aikido videos.

Katherine

Indeed...... Good point. Ive seen some of these videos and it makes me cringe.

[SlowLerner]

OP is right, you can't fight with Aikido. ;)

[SlowLerner]

Is fighting self defence?

[SlowLerner]

Keep in mind when you are practising that uke can't reach you with a free hand. They may draw a concealed weapon during the movement.
Aikido techniques and pins, like Ikkyo, if done correctly should address this. Technique is important.

[Tim Ruijs]

september 22nd 2015...
revived!

[ryback]

This has gone so long, I can't even remember if I have already posted in this thread, so I hope I am not repeating myself here...
Anyway, what I would like to say applies generally, no matter how many times this subject will be addressed or how long this thread will end up to be.
If the OP, or anybody else who have posted on the thread thinks that Aikido doesn't work in a fight, then the only thing they can actually mean is that THEIR Aikido doesn't work. In my experience Aikido works perfectly in any form of a fighting situation, against one or multiple attackers, against armed or unarmed people, against other martial artists if need be. The only factor is how good the Aikidoist is.
There are many dojos out there that have a sign outside their doors that says "Aikido" and some of them are teaching a watered down Aiki Yoga of, some kind just fat people trying to...harmonize their asses together. Some of these dojos have legitimate Aikikai recognitions. Some of those...teachers have legitimate ranks and that fact alone shows how...legitimate a rank can be. In Martial Arts, the only rank that counts is effective technique that has the potential to work against anything.
So what do you mean by saying "Aikido doesn't work in a fight"? What do you mean when you say the word Aikido? Because, to me, what those dojos mentioned above teach, have nothing to do with Aikido.
So if people stop running around incompetent teachers who are promising great recognitions and start pursuing a serious training, a deep study of the Art in a dojo that teaches the practical application of Aikido, they will see that it works!
There are plenty of examples out there, Steven Seagal Sensei, Larry Reynosa Sensei, Nenad Ikras, Lenny Sly.... I don't necessarily agree with everyone's approach but technically they prove that Aikido actually works!

[Mark Harrington]

Why would you visit a forum for a martial art to denigrate it? This is simply irimi trolling and should be blended away from.

But since we're here...

When a pitcher throws a strike, do we say baseball worked for him? Or do we say baseball didn't work for the batter?

On the next pitch, if the batter puts it in play, do we say baseball worked for the batter? Or do we say baseball didn't work for the pitcher?

Now the ball is in the air, we can ask the same questions about the fielders, on and on.

Similarly, in a fight, it is the fighter and his skills, his fitness, and to some degree, the element of surprise. Win or lose, it is not an indictment of the art. The most the original poster can honestly say is that the aikidoka he has seen were not effective in their fights.

[sakumeikan]

He has a black belt in BJJ.....not me.

A Black belt nowadays is hardly a sign that anybody is an expert..Judo grades for example are almost like hire purchase agreements ie you get one over time period like an instalment plan..In my day you had a line up test.Only when you did the business on your opponents did you get upgraded.

Some Aikido schools are useless.The teachers give themselves high grades and in general some of them would be knocked about by an angry fly.The Aikido teachers I have met were no soft touches.If required they could be quite formidable.As for Joe Rogan how much personal experience has he had in terms of Aikido?I dont criticise MMA .Reason I do not practice this discipline.

[rgfox5]

Me credentials: I did aikido for 15 years and I have a 1st degree black belt. I did karate for 10 and I have a 1st degree black belt. I am currently training in BJJ where I have a white belt. This is a recurring topic and thread because it is very relevant. People who study martial arts, in general, do so to be able to fight and defend themselves. Aikido gets criticized a lot for being ineffective. Why?

I believe it is because of the way many dojos train. Cooperation is mandatory. This is supposedly so that people can train without getting hurt. There is no competition. I don't know why that is. Attacks are a second thought and are lame. Even at the advanced level, the attacks are single punches and the arm is not retracted quickly as in a real strike; this is so that nage can do the technique. Also uke steps into the punch again in the spirit of cooperation.

Somehow, Morihei Ueshiba's martial art has been made into a flowing, cooperative art that is not martial. If you look at his videos when he was old, you see a lot of this nonsense, ukes flying everywhere from a slight touch or a motion. But before he got old, his dojo was known as "Hell Dojo" and had a reputation of being extremely hard. Aikido principles are sound, it is composed of many elements from weapons, jiu-jitsu, judo. But somehow, maybe from the flowery nonsense he demonstrated towards the end of his life, most aikido dojos practice such that you can get really good at aikido, but still not be able to defend yourself. Take an Ikeda Sensei seminar. Now I have great respect for Ikeda Sensei and would not want to meet him in a fight. But to have a whole seminar of wrist-grabbing as the attack? Useless. I was in a Steven Segal dojo once, though, and those guys trained much more realistically, hard core. And guess what, they get injured much more. But how can you train realistically and not get injured.

My long-winded opinion is that aikido dojos need to reform the way they train, or aikido will continued to be practiced way below its potential.

A final example of bad training: I was training with a 5th degree black belt at Shobukan Dojo in DC. The attack was a jab. So I punched him in the face and cut his lip. He shouted at me and got really pissed off. I just shrugged and said well you should have blocked it. Kick it up a notch people, on the street folks are not going to leave their arm hanging out there or throw just one punch.

[lbb]

Well, that's a new one, Richard. Usually it's the newbies who just joined aikiweb and who feel the need to comment on every thread on the site, including ones that have been moribund for years.

[rgfox5]

Well, that's a new one, Richard. Usually it's the newbies who just joined aikiweb and who feel the need to comment on every thread on the site, including ones that have been moribund for years.

Quite a pointless reply, but hopefully you feel better getting that off your chest.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Quite a pointless reply, but hopefully you feel better getting that off your chest.

She's helping to get the thread to the 2000 post mark.

[fatebass21]

1974...

[lbb]

Quite a pointless reply, but hopefully you feel better getting that off your chest.

I do! This thread is a veritable rite of passage, kind of like your first nikkyo! :D

[Mary Eastland]

Did hitting him in the face make you feel good?

There is an understanding when training unless you agree otherwise that you don't hit. You might not like it, but hitting someone in the face in a demo or partner doesn't make you a good fighter. It makes you a dick.

Why don't you continue to train like you train and let aikido be. It works for me and I would not have gotten hit in the face and I would not have used you for a demo.

And aikido has helped me take of myself several times and really all the time because of the awareness and strength and ability I have developed. It has nothing to do with fighting -- it has to do with defending myself.

[sorokod]

I was need in the groin during jewaza once, one of the most valuable lessons I had. Truly a Zen koan moment.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

Did hitting him in the face make you feel good?

There is an understanding when training unless you agree otherwise that you don't hit. You might not like it, but hitting someone in the face in a demo or partner doesn't make you a good fighter. It makes you a dick..

Accidents happen. And a busted lip is nothing serious so if this "He shouted at me and got really pissed off." was true the other dude was also a dick.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

I was need in the groin during jewaza once,
Funniest typos of the day.

[sorokod]

Slow day? :-)

[Demetrio Cereijo]

1981.

[sorokod]

It makes you a dick.

Is this verbal Aikido people keep talking about?

[Mary Eastland]

Accidents happen. And a busted lip is nothing serious so if this "He shouted at me and got really pissed off." was true the other dude was also a dick.

agreed.

[Cass]

To be honest I think regardless of your rank if you are training with someone and they punch you hard enough to do damage of any kind, not apologizing and instead just shrugging while saying "your fault" would probably piss me off too. It shouldn't be a matter of how you train as to showing genuine concern and care for the well-being of your partner. I am of course assuming that summary did not omit anything like that of course.

[Walter Martindale]

To be honest I think regardless of your rank if you are training with someone and they punch you hard enough to do damage of any kind, not apologizing and instead just shrugging while saying "your fault" would probably piss me off too. It shouldn't be a matter of how you train as to showing genuine concern and care for the well-being of your partner. I am of course assuming that summary did not omit anything like that of course.

It all depends on the situation, of course, but if I'm "training" with someone, and they actually hit me, I do consider it my fault for having my nose in the wrong place. If I'm "training" with someone and they present the opening, I'll tell them, then if the opening is still there, I'll tap them, and accelerate over the next few openings until they get it, and take the opening away.

However, if I'm in a "demonstration" mode, teaching something, or perhaps being taught something, I expect that a warning "touch" (rather than a strike) might be warranted, but if someone hits me hard enough to draw blood during a slowed-down demonstration, I'll change from teaching mode to "one of us might end up needing a doctor" mode.

A friend had a "what's this aikido stuff" visit from a TKD practitioner, was step-by-step demonstrating something when he got a swift elbow in the side of the head... While saying "So, why did you do that while I was demonstrating at slow speed?" he put the fellow on the floor and nearly took his arm off.

[PeterR]

A friend had a "what's this aikido stuff" visit from a TKD practitioner, was step-by-step demonstrating something when he got a swift elbow in the side of the head... While saying "So, why did you do that while I was demonstrating at slow speed?" he put the fellow on the floor and nearly took his arm off.

Oh what the hell - let's help push this thread to the 1000 mark.

At the risk of me tooing in my case (and I might have related this story eons ago on aikiweb) my visitor was a Yoseikan Budo practitioner (I blame the man not the art) who attempted the same sort of strike. I didn't have time to say anything but his rejoinder was That's not Aikido. He might have had a point as I had cracked his ribs with my knee but then again I think it was.

Now to the point. It is usually pretty obvious when it is an accident and conversely pretty obvious when it is not. And to push the point - when it is not an accident it is also not a fight. There is no squaring off of opponents but a sucker punch, a straight up assault. In a training environment donuts to dollars it contains the expectation that there won't be retaliation.

For the surprise assault aikido has certain advantages and it is certainly no less advantageous than any art you care to name.

[Walter Martindale]

Oh what the hell - let's help push this thread to the 1000 mark.

At the risk of me tooing in my case (and I might have related this story eons ago on aikiweb) my visitor was a Yoseikan Budo practitioner (I blame the man not the art) who attempted the same sort of strike. I didn't have time to say anything but his rejoinder was That's not Aikido. He might have had a point as I had cracked his ribs with my knee but then again I think it was.

Now to the point. It is usually pretty obvious when it is an accident and conversely pretty obvious when it is not. And to push the point - when it is not an accident it is also not a fight. There is no squaring off of opponents but a sucker punch, a straight up assault. In a training environment donuts to dollars it contains the expectation that there won't be retaliation.

For the surprise assault aikido has certain advantages and it is certainly no less advantageous than any art you care to name.

he he he... don't you mean the 2000 mark?;)

[PeterR]

he he he... don't you mean the 2000 mark?;)

Um - yes - that's two more. Part of the plan.

[John Longford]

I cannot be bothered to read all the posts so I may be repeating what someone has already said. Aikido does work. I have used it more than once. At no time did I do a technique as I have practiced/taught in the Dojo. What came out was an almalgamation of the various moves I have learnt. The whole point of doing a vast variety of movements, often from unrealistic attacks, is that your body reacts to whatever is thrown at it. If your body did not learn from repetitive movements then you would never be able to drive a car!

[shuckser]

Baking does not work at all in a pie-eating contest.

[GMaroda]

YOUR baking might not work in a pie-eating contest, but mine works just fine, thanks! :p

Baking does not work at all in a pie-eating contest.

[shuckser]

I have competed in both pie and hot-dog eating contests and I am now training in the brazilian "Estrela da Morte" burger challenge. I have watched many No Olives Jarred competitions, like the UFC (Ultimate Feasting Contest), and it is clear to me that Baking and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually eat. I know that Baking practitioners talk a lot about concepts like kneading, folding...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of subsistence. Baking does not have practical eating techniques or any REAL mouth-work at all. I would like to know how Baking can be used as subsistence if you cannot grill a steak.

[Garth Jones]

Baking can provide real nutrition if you know the secret potato baking techniques. Many critics of modern Baking have pointed out in recent years that those techniques are being lost and bakers in modern kitchens just dance around their flour without any serious focus.

[GMaroda]

I'm sorry, but eating competitions have rules that make it not applicable to all eating situations. Baking, on the other hand, will give you the skills to face eating anywhere. Besides, something like a sachertorte can have so many eggs that it's just not safe in a competitive environment. The cholesterol alone....I shudder to think what could happen to Takeru Kobayashi!

[GMaroda]

Actually, I think the true secret of using baking in a pie eating contest is to make sure you baked the pies you're eating!

Winning is easy if no one else likes rhubarb!

[SlowLerner]

In my opinion, Aikido is more geared towards getting out of a fight. My Aikido turns into wrestling when I try to fight with it, which is probably a more appropriate style in this context.
I wonder what wrestling would turn into if the goal was to evade multiple attackers like the alive/resisting practise we do in Aikido.
I suppose if you can evade 3 attackers, you can evade one on one, the flashy throws are just a nice to have if your goal is not to get grabbed / hit.
The UFC would be interesting if this was the format, and probably closer to reality because a lot of real situations are not one on one. I wonder which styles would be most effective.
While we are on the subject of pies, perhaps we could work that in too. There could be a maze like PacMan and you have to eat as many pies as you can without being submitted. I would watch every comp!

[Thomas Christaller]

I have competed in both pie and hot-dog eating contests and I am now training in the brazilian "Estrela da Morte" burger challenge. I have watched many No Olives Jarred competitions, like the UFC (Ultimate Feasting Contest), and it is clear to me that Baking and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually eat. I know that Baking practitioners talk a lot about concepts like kneading, folding...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of subsistence. Baking does not have practical eating techniques or any REAL mouth-work at all. I would like to know how Baking can be used as subsistence if you cannot grill a steak.

You won. Its so obvious.

[Shadowfax]

*sigh*

Not one of you seems to realise that the most important thing about baking is the internal practice. If your baking lacks internal power it is useless. And to be honest, what would be the point?

[nikyu62]

Tohei Sensei said that even artillery can be Aikido....

[Ketsan]

Two thousand. :D