Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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[Neil Mick]

Now that Neil Mick is posting here I am sure it will last forever. :)

It's nice to be immortalized.

I'm sure that alien archeologists will be puzzling over my posts, 1000 years from now.... :D

[Michael Neal]

It's nice to be immortalized.

I'm sure that alien archeologists will be puzzling over my posts, 1000 years from now.... :D

indeed :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

I tend to agree with Jorgen's comments concerning knife attacks. If it is your time, well it is your time. People watch too much TV and base their ideas of what will happen on romantic ideas of battle and scenarios set up to entertain us.


I think Ron Tisdale also brings up some very good perspectives.

Study aikido for what it is. If you are really concerned with Scenarios based or reality based training, then you should work on those scenarios and develop strategies that work best for them. Don't waste your time studying aikido cause you will learn alot of principles that, while applicable won't necessarily develop your ability to be good at that "crap shoot" scenario.

Aikido to me is sort of like MBA school. You learn alot of practical theory, but understanding/demonstrating theory...and being able to employ it in the "real world" is a totally different ball game...one that requires experience in the real world...not necessarily the "school house" or dojo.

[Edwin Neal]

i have used ny aikido very well in fights both street and hard rolling with jujitsu player i find it somewhat more difficult against grapplers as they are usually well trained, but they are usally surprised when i crack a good nikkyo on them from the guard, or reverse them with a sankyo or ikkyo from the guard. The aikido i studied does have ground work and good strikes and kicks. I started in Yoshinkan while in Japan and i still like the backfist to the eyes or nose that Shioda demonstrates in his book, easy to use standing or on the ground. As for ground work chokes and arm bars and entanglements were covered by most of my teachers as they all had backgrounds in judo. Indeed most of my teachers had backgrounds in karate as well...

just had to keep this going we should try to get a challenge fight from this joey... whatsup wanna roll dude???

[Saji Jamakin]

I.

Study aikido for what it is. If you are really concerned with Scenarios based or reality based training, then you should work on those scenarios and develop strategies that work best for them. Don't waste your time studying aikido cause you will learn alot of principles that, while applicable won't necessarily develop your ability to be good at that "crap shoot" scenario.

Aikido to me is sort of like MBA school. You learn alot of practical theory, but understanding/demonstrating theory...and being able to employ it in the "real world" is a totally different ball game...one that requires experience in the real world...not necessarily the "school house" or dojo.

I think this is true for all martial arts. I speak from a past prospective of training in escrima, Tae Kwon Do and Shaolin Kung Fu. You learn a lot of techniques as well as theories but for specific scenarios you have to develope your own strategies that you will feel comfortable doing in those scenarios...if they ever occur.
Plus I sometimes have to remember why chose Aikido to be the only martial art I will study and then teach to my son.

In using [Aikido] to defend one's self, one is not to do to the attacker whatever one pleases. The presumption is that the attacker is not a bad person to whom anything can be done, but, rather, is a soul who has wandered from The Way. It is the duty of the Aikido practitioner to subdue the attacker without harming him, and to help the attacker back along the True Path.

This is the idea I try to strive for even as a shodokan practitioner. You do not have to win but immobilize with out pain or even neutralize.

[Raspado]

Quote:
In using [Aikido] to defend one's self, one is not to do to the attacker whatever one pleases. The presumption is that the attacker is not a bad person to whom anything can be done, but, rather, is a soul who has wandered from The Way. It is the duty of the Aikido practitioner to subdue the attacker without harming him, and to help the attacker back along the True Path.

This is great in theory but not in the "real world" To learn to put down the sword, one must first learn to use the sword. What will you do if the methods used (non-painful or damagin) as described above don't work. If you don't train realistically you have nothing to fall back on.

[Edwin Neal]

sometimes to get them back on the true path means you have to kill them... better luck in their next life...

[Raspado]

It seems harsh but true. Edwin--ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo are not eclusive aikido techniques. They are in all martial arts, especially jujitsu. Yoshinkan is one of the more "hard-style" pre WWII aikido's that was more like Daito-ryu. Doesn't suprise me it worked in a fight. You probably trained realistically unlike 90% of all other aikido styles.

[Luc X Saroufim]

i personally was always fascinated by the spiritual aspects of Aikido, and O Sensei's teachings struck a chord with me. regardless of how effective it is in the real world, l love the overall message of Aikido and cannot imagine myself studying any other MA.

but you'll never see me go to a BJJ forum and post: "<thumbs down> BJJ is a bunch of gorillas wrestling on the floor..where's the universal harmony, fellas?"

does Aikido work in fight? baaah. i'll worry about that later. i have more important things to worry about, like my Ukemi.

[Raspado]

I will say that is something we don't enough of in bjj--the spiritual aspect of training. Although I listening to Carlos Gracie jr talk reminded me of many aikido speeches from Saotome Sensei.

[Edwin Neal]

thanks mike... i encountered many "aikido" techniques in other arts, but generally aikido schools (not all) do them better more focused more control. Had a shotokan guy showing me how to do nikkyo... i let him twist and do his thing then reversed and gave him the electric nikkyo from hell... he wanted me to teach him wrist locks then... Arnis esp as done by the late Remy Presas had really good wrist locks very aikidoish... and Bjj guys love them once theyve felt them ( please put your forearm across my throat hehe)... lucky me most all of my senseis fight hard and philosophize hard too... i aint afraid of ki balls but i know what strong ki feels like... Remy Presas and his senior instructors have it as does Royce gracie and some of his people... ki is not unique to aikido its in most MA... Tell me more about Tampa and your dojo i like to travel esp if the weathers nice and the dojos good...

[Raspado]

Is that aikido people do them better because there are more of them practicing the wrist techniques? I have encounted one traditional Japanese jujitsu practicioner in my years of training who knew the move. I use it all the time in bjj. It's great fun. My buddies call it a weak technique, but I just smile and say yeah, but you tapped! : ) My dojo in Tampa is here: www.tampabjj.com Come visit us anytime. Everyone is very cool.

We have a great school, with a lot of good guys. One thing about training bjj that I did encounter is aikido is much more ego--in aikido believe it or not. I think the main reason is the imposed hierarchy in aikido and in bjj it's determined by skill. Don't get me wrong, there is respect for senior students even if they aren't tapping people often, but you know who knows what they're doing based on how they perform on the mat.

Aikido to me seems to ambigous regarding this. Example--4th dans who totally suck, but walk around like they own the world just because they are a yondan.

[Edwin Neal]

see my post under seagals thread .... my senseis dont do that we're so much better than the students... ask any of them they'll say they are just students too...
rank is overated its what you do not what belt you wear...

[tenshinaikidoka]

Aikido doesn't work in a fight????? Well, don't tel that to a guy who got his wrist snapped by me in a bar fight (he was attacking me on the job-PD). Nikkyo is a good technique!!!!!

[Luc X Saroufim]

Is that aikido people do them better because there are more of them practicing the wrist techniques? I have encounted one traditional Japanese jujitsu practicioner in my years of training who knew the move. I use it all the time in bjj. It's great fun. My buddies call it a weak technique, but I just smile and say yeah, but you tapped! : ) My dojo in Tampa is here: www.tampabjj.com Come visit us anytime. Everyone is very cool.

We have a great school, with a lot of good guys. One thing about training bjj that I did encounter is aikido is much more ego--in aikido believe it or not. I think the main reason is the imposed hierarchy in aikido and in bjj it's determined by skill. Don't get me wrong, there is respect for senior students even if they aren't tapping people often, but you know who knows what they're doing based on how they perform on the mat.

Aikido to me seems to ambigous regarding this. Example--4th dans who totally suck, but walk around like they own the world just because they are a yondan.

meh, the ego thing is in all martial arts. it was a BJJ practitioner that posts "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" on an Aikido forum, and doesn't even give his real name. also, calling a foreign technique "weak" is not exactly selfless. let's just give everyone the benefit of the doubt. let's also remember that this is the internet, where everyone's a Shaolin master :)

[CNYMike]

I love this thread, please let it never die

NO, KILL IT, KILL IT, KILL IT, PLLLLEEEAAAASSSEEEE!!!!!!!!!! :hypno: :crazy: :p :)

[Raspado]

No Shaolin master here, just my opinions--and you know what they say about those.

[Kristian Miller-Karlsen]

Hi Everyone,

I hope this is relevant to the topic:

I had an interesting encounter recently, which has changed my Aikido practice forever. I have, for years now, been looking for insights and differing points of view on various aspects of Aikido. I have, as is the case here, often looked outside the Aikido community for answers.

For a long while now the “Is my Aikido effective?” question has been raging in my mind. I was throwing back and forth the value of atemi in Aikido and, after reading a quote from osensei (which I remember reading in ‘Budo’ by Stevens):

“The purpose of Aikido is to kill your opponent with a single Blow.”

I knew I had to get an answer. I began to feel that I had to know how to seriously injure/kill someone so as to know how not to, so that I would have a choice in a life and death situation. I could not find a sensei anywhere with the ability to adequately explain this quote from osensei to me, or show that he/she even knew how. I believe that it is better to know how to kill someone and never have to do so than to need to be able to and not know how. Aikido in this day and age, in my humble opinion, does not seem to address this quote from osensei.

The answer I found to my question came in the form of a seminar, which an old training friend from my Aikido dojo encouraged me to take part in. It was a seminar on TFT or ‘Target Focus Training’. I’m not trying to promote this training, or sell it to anyone here. I just found it very interesting. I say so because it seemed to answer many of my queries.

Let me try and explain TFT. Put simply it is a method of selecting specific targets on the human body, and by striking them in specific ways, elicit a specific trauma/ spinal reflex in response. Essentially this means that you can hit a target and get a base minimum response/spinal reflex from the person you hit 100% of the time. This is trained in a similar way to which we train Aikido (uke-nage relationship) with each person practicing hitting the other at very slow speeds (so as not to hurt their training partner) while the person being hit practices giving the correct spinal reflex.

I found that this notion of striking/ getting a response fits with Aikido because, once you have struck your attacker and created a spinal reflex, you have then created a window through which you can apply any number of Aikido techniques. This to me is the meaning of atemi.

Has anyone else out there in the Aikido community attended a TFT seminar or something similar?

I hope this post/question makes sense. I humbly look forward to any and all responses from you, my peers.

Regards

Kristian

[neaikikai]

I truly believe this question is valid, but it is valid in all arts. It truly depends on the level of training that a student is receiving. I was a student of Kanai sensei. This was his biggest fear. It drove him nuts. Compromised attacks, too much cooperation between nage and uke. He always taught Aikido as a budo first. It was a serious self defense art to him. His techniques were based on serious confrontation. When he saw other Aikido with various sensei's just touching people and they would go flying it would really upset him. So the only thing I can tell you is our Aikido is very realistic and completely able to defend oneself in a real situation of defense. Remember Aikido is not about fighting, but it is reality that people do get attacked. If any of you know Kanai sensei's Aikido or his senior students you can see the combat aspect. So whoever doubts it is affective, I wish you had seen Kanai sensei. The power and the timing and the technique, and balance was just amazing.

[Jorx]

Dear Kristian.
Is it too HARD to understand that this kind of thing IS a scam as fighting ALWAYS has variables you CAN NOT control that well to get the results they promise?

I cand deal with Aikido people talking about principles and how learning principles converts to different kinds of situations but every time I see someone taking seriously dead RBSD; pressure points or this TFT you speak about it totally flips me off...

[Suggo]

I'm not real sure that this hasn't already been posted in here but this is for Joey

http://www.youtube.com/w/Brazilian-jiu-jitsu-is-like-the-gayest-sport-there-is?v=yYMMKIlRNCQ&feature=Recent&page=1&t=t&f=b

:D

[Kristian Miller-Karlsen]

G'day Everyone,

Michael, thanks for the response. Much appreciated.

Jorgen, I replied to your post on the 'Aikido and TFT' thread. I'm sorry if you have been 'flipped off' by my question. Actually Jorgen, are you taking the piss? Or what? Ahhh! Now I get it. You are joking around with me. That's cool.

Robert, That was the funniest clip I have seen for ages. Everyone at work thinks it is too. Thanks.

No offense to anyone here but is there anyone else out there with a serious response to my honest question?

Regards

Kristian.

[Jorx]

That's a great clip:)

[xuzen]

I'm not real sure that this hasn't already been posted in here but this is for Joey

http://www.youtube.com/w/Brazilian-jiu-jitsu-is-like-the-gayest-sport-there-is?v=yYMMKIlRNCQ&feature=Recent&page=1&t=t&f=b

:D

Step aside AIKIDO.... there is a new kid in town. BJJ is the hippiest, trendiest, metro-sexual sport in town.

I can imagine in the near future, Jean Paul Gaultier willl have a line of parfume entitled "Jiujitsu for Homme".

Tommy Hilfieger will create its Tommy Gi and Tommy JJ belts for the man of new millenium.

Calvin Klein briefs and suspender for the discerning Jiujitsu athelete.

Vidal Sassoon haircare product that will hold your lock even in the most engaging postion.

Body Shop body lotion to keep your body smelling floral scent on and off the mat.

Boon.

[CNYMike]

I'm not real sure that this hasn't already been posted in here but this is for Joey

http://www.youtube.com/w/Brazilian-jiu-jitsu-is-like-the-gayest-sport-there-is?v=yYMMKIlRNCQ&feature=Recent&page=1&t=t&f=b

:D

OMG! Talk about misinterpretation! :D What's that from? There's gotta be a scene where the BJJ guy finds out what they were thinking. Has to be priceless! That was funny. Thanks.

[Edwin Neal]

aikido, and GJJ, came from traditional styles of jujutsu... osensei and other old timers had extensive jujutsu experience something that is woefully lacking in many aikido sensei today... its all about fighting... in all ranges and positions...

[James Smithe]

Technically BJJ came from Kosen Judo. JUDO! Not Jujutsu. That gets me thinking why don't we call Aikido American Jujutsu or Shotokan people call it American Karate. Because you and me didn't invent it Gracies. People don't realize the Gracies are badasses you on the other hand are not.

[James Smithe]

Don't you think 500 post is overdoing it? The first poster already took care of it but no you had to keep going. Did it ever occur to you he just wanted to mess with you guys?

[deepsoup]

... its all about fighting...

Yours might be, mine ain't.

[MattRice]

Technically BJJ came from Kosen Judo. JUDO! Not Jujutsu. That gets me thinking why don't we call Aikido American Jujutsu or Shotokan people call it American Karate. Because you and me didn't invent it Gracies. People don't realize the Gracies are badasses you on the other hand are not.

Unless Rickson Gracie's website is wrong, BJJ came from jiu-jitsu.

History of BJJ (http://rickson.com/history.htm)

[MattRice]

huh...Gracie doesn't mention that Maeda was a judoka as well...he was

[James Smithe]

Unless Rickson Gracie's website is wrong, BJJ came from jiu-jitsu.

Yes it's wrong, They refuse to admit it's wrong. They are practioners of Kosen Judo. The Judo club around the corner is Kodokan Judo. Kosen Judo focuses on mat work. Kodokan focuses more on standup than mat work. Anyway this stuff isn't important this is an Aikido site.

[Jorx]

Yeah but BJJ is long past the Judo and long past the Gracies.

[Justin Gaar]

Seriously guys, this is a dead topic. Can we put it to rest and let it rest?

[James Smithe]

No let this thread never die. I still think you guys went overboard though.

[Derek Gaudet]

That gets me thinking why don't we call Aikido American Jujutsu or Shotokan people call it American Karate.

Aikido American jujutsu :confused: ? I don't even want to guess why that was brought up. But there is a simple answer to the above... because they are not..

[James Smithe]

Did you not read the last few posts geesh.

[SBK_Doug]

The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.

If you want to learn how to punch box. If you want to learn how to kick kickbox. If you want to learn how to grapple do Judo or wrestling. If you want to learn submissions do BJJ or submission fighting. I am saying that the strikes and grappling in Aikido have no application in a real fight. They only work if you are getting pushed around.

The reason Aikido striking and Grappling do not work is that there is no practical sparring to get rid of the worthless techniques. Why do you think that the most successful NHB competitors are athletes who compete in a martial sport.

I have seen two high ranking Aikido practitioners in the early UFC videos. The Aikido practitioners were slaughtered even though in both instances the Aikido practitioners had the weight advantage. What really amazed me is that they did not even react. How can an Aikido practitioner expect to defend against a quick strong jab, that even people with no martial arts experience can do, by taking large steps and with elaborate hand movements. The answer is a broken nose every time.

Just because Aikido has striking and grappling techniques does not mean that they work. It all depends on if they are practical and have been tested in actual NHB fights.

AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE.


I think that if you are trully concerned about Aikido's effectiveness, then perhaps you should stick to one of your other martial art choices, practice it, perfect it, and help to evolve your art by thinking of every possible confrontation you might find yourself in. Then figure out how to use your art to get out of it. By the time you have figured out every pssible situation that you can get into and how to get out of them, you may find that you don't need any martial arts training at all.
Meditate on this, you should..... :ai: :ki: :do:

[Edwin Neal]

oh yeah this thread still lives... to all the nay sayers... take my word or don't... I have no problem making my aikido work... people who think otherwise only show how narrow minded they are... these kind of people will never be effective no matter what art they study as their mind is too narrow to encompass the totality of conflict, and has no room for a broad strategy that addresses all the possible ways in which a situation may develop...

"I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application"

HA... here i'll sell you a pill that will make you invincible...
i hope this guy comes back to post some more... it will be interesting to watch his growth or lack thereof...

[Dajo251]

well IMO the most effective thing in a fight....is avoiding the fight all together, is physical confrontation ever really necessary?

[Ron Tisdale]

is physical confrontation ever really necessary?

Yes.

Best,
Ron

[Lyle Bogin]

I firmly side with Ron. We need to be careful not to blame the victim.

[Dajo251]

Yes.

Best,
Ron
short to the point...damn you have changed my view point....sorry I am slightly sarcastic

[Raspado]

Hey Edwin--try to make your aikido work on me. I'm not going to grab your wrist either. And James Smith, where do you think Kosen Judo comes from. You should read more history. The Gracie Way gives plenty of credit to Maeda.

[Michael O'Brien]

short to the point...damn you have changed my view point....sorry I am slightly sarcastic

LOL ... Ok Daniel ... You walk out of the mall to your car as you get to the side of your car 2 guys approach you, 1 from either side with the intent of not only robbing you but beating you into the concrete.

Do you let them pound your head into the ground until it explodes like a watermelon or do you choose to allow your Aikido training to effectively defend yourself?

I started Tae Kwon in the mid 80's and since my training I have had to defend myself 1 time in the last 20 years so that isn't a bad track record.

But ultimately, yes, there are times when no matter what you do physical conflict can not be avoided.

Mike

[Dajo251]

LOL ... Ok Daniel ... You walk out of the mall to your car as you get to the side of your car 2 guys approach you, 1 from either side with the intent of not only robbing you but beating you into the concrete.

Do you let them pound your head into the ground until it explodes like a watermelon or do you choose to allow your Aikido training to effectively defend yourself?

I started Tae Kwon in the mid 80's and since my training I have had to defend myself 1 time in the last 20 years so that isn't a bad track record.

But ultimately, yes, there are times when no matter what you do physical conflict can not be avoided.

Mikealright you do make a very good point, no sarcasim this time

[George S. Ledyard]

well IMO the most effective thing in a fight....is avoiding the fight all together, is physical confrontation ever really necessary?
Daniel,
I'm sure that you are a well meaning person, but this is the kind of statement which makes people think that Aikido folks are just a bunch of wishful thinking, naive folkst. Of course physical confrontation is necessary at times. And the knowledge of how to handle one is key to avoiding many of them.

Just the other day one of my Defensive Tactics students was in a parking lot when a guy zoomed around the corner and practically ran my students toes over. My student took issue with this manner of driving and the guy jammed the breaks on, flung open the car door and advanced in my student. this guy was clearly raging...

This particular student is quite well trained, more than capable of knocking this guy out. He saw the guy coming, simply stepped back into a relaxed but solid posture and watched the guy approaching. The guy realized that something was wrong when he got about ten feet away... regular people are not relaxed when faced with an on-coming threat, and he stopped short, uttered a quick "Sorry" and left. My student never said a word but there is no doubt in my mind that his ability to defend himself was crucial in his not needing to.

If you don't know how to defend yourself it's almost impossible to lose the fear that creates or permits aggression. The exception to this are those brave individuals who have engaged in civil protest in India with Ghandi, or in the Civil Rights movement with Dr.King. Their commitment to non-violence required a willingness to sacrifice their bodies, and in many cases their lives, required amazing courage... But what people don't remember was that their non-violence was still a form of physical confrontation. They were beaten, gassed, jailed, bitten by dogs, shot at, murdered, etc. Their commitment to non-violence did not result on a non-violent response on the part of the people they were "fighting", on the contrary, their actions evoked a violent response, which they knew it would, and the shock of seeing that violence got the attention of the world. But in many cases it wasn't their actions which accomplished the changes but the intervention of the Federal government via legislation (backed up by the might of the Federal Law Enforcement community), the sending of hundreds of FBI agents into those communitities to arrest the perpetrators of racial violence, the deployment of the Federal troops, forced rewriting of laws democraticall enacted in racists communities, etc.

It wasn't the non-violence itself which actually accomplished the change, it simply sparked the will of the national political powers to rectify the situation. If there had not been a Federal Governement with an armed FBI and an armed National Guard to intervene, it's doubtful whether the non-violent movement would have succeeded. Such a movement depends on there being a) a populace of good conscience which will react against the violence of repression and b) some political element which has the backing of physical force to enforce the changes being resisted by the folks in power.

Non-violenece of the type championed by King and Ghandi would not have worked in the Soviet Union under Stalin. There was no other power to back up any resistance to his policies and he had aboltuely no compunction about eliminating any opposition, or even hint of opposition, to his power. In the later Soviet Union under guys like Kruschev or Breshev, there were folks like Sharansky who formed a non-violent resistance but the only reason they didn't simply disappear in the night was that the Soviets were afraid of the US and its power. They were in competition with us and didn't wish to alienate foreign elements who might be pushed towards supporting us if they cracked down totally on the dissidents. Even then they jailed them, harrased them, put them in insane asylums and drugged them, etc.

An example of non-violent people without either a) or b) would be the Jews in Germany. No public of good conscience to protest against the actions taken by the government against them and no political / military power to protect them. The result, six million of them gone. Same thing in Ruanda, same thing in Bosnia, same thing in many places...

On an individual level there are the same factors operating. I'm not talking about the usual drunk guy at the bar or an incident of road rage... There are folks out there who are basically sociopathic individuals who look at normal human reluctance to use violence as a weakness. If you think you are going to "talk" your way out of a confrontaion with such an individual you are wrong. Language is just a tool of deception for these people. They are "hunting" and you are "prey". Like most predators, they will seek out the easiest prey, the weak, timid, the young, the females, etc. Your only defense is not to be one of them, unless you want to trust to pure dumb luck and hope you never meet one of these people.

The current international situation is a another example... there are conflicts in which diplomacy, long term aid, conflict resolution, etc can be effective. We never should have gone into Iraq... it was the wrong war, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons... It has done exactly the opposite from its stated goal of making us "safer" from terrorists.

But there really is a war on and the folks we are fighting are very much like the "Terminator"; they will not stop, they will not hesitate, they will keep coming as long as they are able. These people fundamentally believe that God's Will compels them to fight and defeat us whether it takes one year or a hundred. They are absolutely willing to die to infllict harm on as many of us as possible. They are willing to plan four and five years out, practice their plans and correct mistakes, replace any personnel lost and try again. No amount of wishful thinking or dspilomatic efforts will make these folks go away. Only physical force will stop them from continuing in their efforts to kill as many of us as possible. Now we can use other non-violent means to alienate their supports and dry up their sources for recruits, there's plenty to do with aid and diplomatic means but the fundamental element of this conflict is force. If you don't kill these guys, they will kill us.

Now I happen to be a big believer in the part of O-Sensei's message that has to do with Love and Peace. I absolutely believe that if we had acted more using what I see as the principles of Aikido in our actions as a country we would not be in the position we are in. But no amount of wishful thinking and harmonius individualism at this point will resolve this conflict...

[Dajo251]

George,
I really dont know what to say to that, brilliantly written first of all, and i actually do agree on many levels, I realized that i need to think a little differently, I wasnt thinking quite on the same level there, I absolutly agree that its good to understand how to handle one self in a fight, and more often that not a fight isnt necessary at least in out current society. I also have a slightly different perspective on the matter somtimes, its very rare that someone is aggressive twords me. I have had a road rage experience where some one followed me into a parking lot and stepped out of their car weilding a tire iron, I stepped out of my truck the guy saw me and got back in his car and drove of, I am also 6'2 250 lbs, so I am an intimidating visage. I also know I can handle myself in a confrontation, I've had to on a few occasions. I dont know, I kinda lost track of my point a while back. I should have said in an ideal world physical confrontation would not be necessary....oh well...I know when I am wrong especially when faces with well written and well presented facts,

[Edwin Neal]

HA mike you didn't grab my wrist so my aikido worked ;-)

aikido as budo must encompass both In Yo (yin yang) from peaceful reconciliation to total destruction... each can be the proper method depending upon the circumstance...

[CNYMike]

Hey Edwin--try to make your aikido work on me. I'm not going to grab your wrist either ......

Theoreitcally, someone who's grounded in the principles doesn't need to have his (or her) wrist grabbed to do something to you. They SHOULD be able to work off everything. Granted, adapting Aikido to things you haven't formally trained against, like kickboxing combinations and certain types of takedowns, isn't the easiest thing in the world. But I don't think it's impossible. So if your hope for beating an Aikidoist is not to go for a wrist grab, well, I wouldn't bank on it. Just a thought.

[Edwin Neal]

george i'm glad i was not the only one to read that extremely long paper on self defense in asian philosophies and religions... i found the parts about gandhi and south east asia particularly informative...

[Ron Tisdale]

I gave a rather short answer to the question of "is violence ever really necessary". Larry C. posted an article that displays the reason for that short answer rather well. George's post also details my summary well.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=129432#post129432

Best,
Ron

[Edwin Neal]

violence is 'never' necessary... with of course the philosophical loophole that aikido is not violent, because nage's intention is non violent ie the loving protection of uke... using only what response is necessary to resolve the conflict... it may look violent from the sidelines, but as long as your heart is pure, and not with violent intent, then it is okay...

[justinmaceachern]

THIS IS FOR EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD. i BOUNCED INA BAR FOR A YEAR AND A HALF. AND I WILL TELL YOU STRAIGHT UP IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE, IF YOU UNDERSTAND AIKIDO. IN A BAR LIKE SETTING THE PRACTIONER IS ALWAYS GOING TO PREVAIL. BUT ON THE STREET YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. I HAVE USED AIKIDO ON THE STREETS (NOT PROUD AT ALL TO SAY THAT) BUT I HAVE. AND IN MY OPINION WHO EVER HAS THE KNOWLEGE TO OVER CME WILL WIN. AND AS FAR AS UFC GOES, ANYONE CAN FIGHT ONE PERSON.

[Ron Tisdale]

Yow...could you please not shout? Typing in all caps is hard to read, and considered kind of rude on the internet.

Thanks,
Ron

[justinmaceachern]

Sorry Ron i didnt realize until after the post

[nathansnow]

Hey Joe,
The UFC isn't that good. I would much rather watch PRIDE. They have alot more skilled fighters and their technique is much better! BJJ is very effective and wrestling is ok, but what good is it to take someone to the ground and put a nice lock on them when his buddies can walk over and start kicking you in the head??? People on the street don't fight fare and their friends probably won't hesitate to jump right in. I would rather stay on my feet and have the option of fight and flight!! I think aikido does an excellent job of this.

[Edwin Neal]

i think the better part of BJJ and wrestling is that you can escape and get back to your feet to avoid the stomps/kicks to the head...

[Counsel]

I thought of some wonderful and factual replies, but I will settle on:

To some degree, generalizations contain some truth. However, the generalization is rarely the truth.

There are many 'types' of fighting - wrestling, escrima, TKD, judo, jujitsu, aikido, kung fu, savate, etc... Each has techniques for 'fighting' or facing single opponents and multiple opponents --thus it is a martial art...

As someone who has studied jujitsu, I would rather stay on my feet than grapple--I like strikes, throws, and joint locks that let me remain mobile. You have to ask yourself: 'What is your goal and who (a drunk, many people, etc.) is your opponent?' Is your goal to get a quick tap? Is it to defeat the opponent? Is it to survive? Must you fight more than one person or a single individual? Each of the encounters listed above may dictate different methods.

Each martial art serves a purpose -- mainly to give you confidence so that you don't 'freeze like a deer in headlights' and are able to respond to an attack/situation. Which art you use and how adept you are at the art depends on many factors.

Just a question...could you have tapped those participants in the UFO who were not using Aikido? Perhaps it is the skill of each person rather than the art itself that determined the outcome...

Perspective...

C

[justinmaceachern]

I just want to say that i agree with James. It has more to do with the person then the art. that is why you can take someone who is lets say a black belt in this art, put him against a guy who is considerbly of less rank in a nther art. and who wins? A lot of people will say the black belt, the black belt will win. But nobody knows. There is no actual way to determin that. I will tell i know and have met some "Brawlers" in my time that have never had any jujitsu or tkd or anything, and I have watched them dismantle people of high rank, of low rank. or nothing. You guys see what i am getting at. Its cool to feel pacionate about your art but to put another down is plain ignorant in my books.
Of course thats just my opinion, and as always no offense meant.

[Dajo251]

I thought of some wonderful and factual replies, but I will settle on:

To some degree, generalizations contain some truth. However, the generalization is rarely the truth.

There are many 'types' of fighting - wrestling, escrima, TKD, judo, jujitsu, aikido, kung fu, savate, etc... Each has techniques for 'fighting' or facing single opponents and multiple opponents --thus it is a martial art...

As someone who has studied jujitsu, I would rather stay on my feet than grapple--I like strikes, throws, and joint locks that let me remain mobile. You have to ask yourself: 'What is your goal and who (a drunk, many people, etc.) is your opponent?' Is your goal to get a quick tap? Is it to defeat the opponent? Is it to survive? Must you fight more than one person or a single individual? Each of the encounters listed above may dictate different methods.

Each martial art serves a purpose -- mainly to give you confidence so that you don't 'freeze like a deer in headlights' and are able to respond to an attack/situation. Which art you use and how adept you are at the art depends on many factors.

Just a question...could you have tapped those participants in the UFO who were not using Aikido? Perhaps it is the skill of each person rather than the art itself that determined the outcome...

Perspective...

Cwell put

[Kevin Leavitt]

James Taylor: Agree with most of what you said. Good comments. You do have to consider the scenario, rules (implied and explicit), and many other factors. Of course staying on your feet is preferred. Find me a qualified BJJ guy who thinks otherwise!. BJJ simply trains a particular focus that they have found effective. Much of BJJ is cultural- the strategy is based on fighting attitudes and "rules" considered to be the norm/value with in their culture.

I know it is semantics, but the only thing I would change in your comments is that the (strategy) " dictates which art you will use" to the Strategy dictates what methods you will use. I tend to be sensitive to the paradigm of "art". In a real fight (tm)...you don't use an art, but tactics that may or may not come from your study of an art...what is employed are techniques and principles that don't necessarily fit into the parameters of the "art".

[Counsel]

I know it is semantics, but the only thing I would change in your comments is that the (strategy) " dictates which art you will use" to the Strategy dictates what methods you will use. I tend to be sensitive to the paradigm of "art". In a real fight (tm)...you don't use an art, but tactics that may or may not come from your study of an art...what is employed are techniques and principles that don't necessarily fit into the parameters of the "art".

:D I meant to say 'technique' -- I got carried away!

Of Course... My techniques ARE art..... :freaky:

C

[Raspado]

You guys are all delusional and believe your own BS.

[Ron Tisdale]

could you have tapped those participants in the UFO who were not using Aikido?

I will state without qualification that I have never 'tapped' anyone or anything in a UFO.

Best,
Ron (can you 'tap' with flippers??)

[Dajo251]

I came back into this thread with a serious mind set and Ron, you completely ruined that,
thank you

[Ron Tisdale]

:) My work here is done....{sigh} ;)

B,
R

[SMART2o]

[QUOTE=Jorgen Matsi]

To Brian... I'd say... when he says "choke me" punch him. When says "punch me", clinch and do a takedown. See what happens then.

QUOTE]

That might be worth doing during private instruction, but to do so during class time would probably be considered pretty disrespectful to the sensei.

[CNYMike]

[QUOTE=Jorgen Matsi]

To Brian... I'd say... when he says "choke me" punch him. When says "punch me", clinch and do a takedown. See what happens then.

QUOTE]

That might be worth doing during private instruction, but to do so during class time would probably be considered pretty disrespectful to the sensei.

I agree. Regardless of what happens --- whether you get the bragging rights for "proving" Aikido doesn't work or go through flying through the far wall -- all you do is make yourself look like a horse's @$$. I'd never do it. EVER.

[Justin Gaar]

I knew this was coming. When i thread goes on for too long people start getting a tad bit frustrated. Guys we're all civil people *i hope* can act the way that alot of us have trained a long time to understand? Accepting and patient. Geez. Mark. You should be one of the most patient people on here.

[James Davis]

Geez. Mark. You should be one of the most patient people on here.
Because he's Canadian? :confused:

[Justin Gaar]

No because he's one of the most senior of us. Not a reference to age as much as it is to experience

[W^2]

Hello Everyone,

I'm literally amazed at the size of this thread...sitting here beside myself really. For my contribution I would like to ask a few simple questions...

Q: What is a Martial Art without a person to employ it or a context within which it is employed?

A: Non-existent. Yet, conflict remains a constant in nature. When we objectify conflict, we are attempting to represent in a finite syllabus of external physical techniques, the myriad of parameters known or otherwise, that constitute the human condition. So, regardless of the abstract or applied models we employ as humans, conflict remains constant, and no Martial Art is conducive to expressing the full range of human potential regardless of context.

Q: If your mind can experience conflict without physical contact, is conflict purely physical?

A: No. Our perception of the world is based on our paradigms or worldview; you can only perceive what you believe is possible, otherwise you wouldn't have a frame of reference in which to put it into context, and the human brain cannot tell the difference between what the eyes see and what it remembers seeing -- seeing really IS believing.


So, what is the point of all of all of that? As it pertains to this discussion, who prevails in a conflict is entirely dependent upon the myriad of parameters of those involved, and their subjective perceptions of what transpired, not an externalized finite heuristic model of strategic interaction [physical or otherwise]. Even Miyamoto Musashi said that strategy had nothing to do with his victories -- he formulated Go Rin No Sho after reflecting back upon his life.

People interact with people, not abstract models of behavior.

Peace,

Ward

[Edwin Neal]

short answer aikido works in a fight... keeping the thread alive...

[Nick Simpson]

If its in a 'fight' is it still aikido? Is it still aiki? I spose it would depend on how it was employed and what the end result to the assailant is/was.

'Aikido works, yours doesnt...' so the saying goes.

I have used the principle of irimi successfully, but the end result was not particularly aiki...

[CNYMike]

If its in a 'fight' is it still aikido? Is it still aiki? .....

Yeah, to borrow a line from The Oracle, that one is guarunteed to bake your noodle. Has Zen Koan written all over it.

Well, if we assume for the sake of arguments that Ki exists and Aiki is one of the things you can do with it, then it can happen at any time -- you don't turn your ki off when you leave the dojo -- so yeah, it should be possible in an altercation.

Whether that inculdes an irimi/clothesline is another matter. ;) [Robert Duval] I love the smell of brains baking, in the evening; clears out the lungs ....[/Robert Duval] :)

[justinmaceachern]

cant beleive this thread is still going. it shouldnt be Aikido doesnt work in a fight. It should be How can we use aikido in a fight

[Dirk Hanss]

Justin,
my feeling is that the thread is being kept alive by many "rubbish-thread" comments, including a few of mine ;) .
You can start the new one with your question and then probably one of the first replies would be: "study aikido, wwork hard and seriously, train more often!"
The second would be : "crosstrain BJJ, JuJustu, Chinese, etc.!"
And then your new thread would look like this one plus everything you can read in one of our 20 crosstrain-threads.

Maybe we just should ask Jun to move it to the humour-section LOL


Dirk

[ian]

After having read through all 577 posts I fell thoroughly into a deep and peaceful sleep....


z z z z z z z z z z z z z

[justinmaceachern]

thanks dirk, i just think it is a bit rediculouse. i want to say who cares, but obviously i do. Can any one tell me what "shugyo" means
If you could my mind would feel a lot better

[ChrisHein]

Well, if we assume for the sake of arguments that Ki exists and Aiki is one of the things you can do with it, then it can happen at any time -- you don't turn your ki off when you leave the dojo -- so yeah, it should be possible in an altercation. [/Robert Duval] :)


Of coarse Ki exists, what do you think heats frying pans, turns on light, makes those little balls click back and forth, and makes sounds appear? If you replace all the trumped up mysticism attached to the word "ki" or "chi" and use the common english word energy we will no longer have a problem. And as far as Aiki being something you can do with "ki", if you've ever danced to a song you've experienced "Aiki", your rhythmic interaction with sound (energy).

-Chris Hein

[xuzen]

Can any one tell me what "shugyo" means

I googled it and it meant in martial art context to be
austere / spartan / hardship.

However, reading it in Kanji form, Shugyo reads in Cantonese (chinese) as Shao Hang. Literally it means Cultivating Merits. It is a word originated from buddhist ideology.

Boon.

[john block]

Well I must say ...Iam not sure if Joey Sola is still interested in hearing a reply . After all, his original post was quite a long time ago. However, I found not only his post, but all the replies so interesting...that I actually joined this site, just so I could reply to this. Well..first off lets be clear about certain things: 1) With words we are limited as to what we can convey (unless we do what one person suggested & get everyone together to actually test aikido techniques in mixed martial arts tournament). 2) Any technique can work ONCE in a real street fight...from any martial art..provided the timing is correct (it does not mean it will work again even under the exact conditions). 3) What was not mentioned to Joey Sola ...by anyone on this site ...is that there are other styles of Aikido which do included striking and grappling .Lets start with point # 3..there is the "Soft style" of Aikido and there is also the "hard style". For example, I would encourage Joey Sola to look up "Nihon Goshin Aikido"..which is a combination of Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu, and karate. As many of you are probably aware ..the japanese police are trained in the above "hard style" Aikido. Now Joey Sola..you tell me if this sounds like the kind of training that would be useful in a "real" street fight. I am going to describe an actual training drill from the Nihon Goshin Aikido School. Picture yourself sitting on the floor in a kneeling position...your opponent is allowed to go behind you and apply any grip,choke or techinque(no strikes) ..but wait..there is more...YOU ARE BLINFOLDED WHILE THIS GOING ON. Now you have to defend yourself purely on instinct. This type of instinct is what the fellow writes about that responded on this site ...with the actual fight he had with some drunk guys at the 7/11...or the type of instinct that Bruce Lee mentions in the unedited version of "Enter the Dragon", were he says the "it".."hits all by itself". It might seem extreme to perform groundwork blindfolfed..but Joey..that is Aikido. Aikido is a very misunderstood martial art because it borders on the abstract & esoteric. However, Joey I will give you this ..and here most Aikidoists on this site will disagree with me...but in my opinion ..even an experience aikido player will find it difficult to deal with a lightning fast straight jab (this statement is based from my actual training in the dojo). So yes I believe Aikido is limited...but then again every single martial art is. That is why mixed martial arts were developed...however ..to hone your fighting instinct, to learn about defense against armed attacks (guns,knives, etc. )..to learn to deal with multiple attackers..to learn to escape common grips and strangles..Aikido is in a class by itself. No other style is covers so wide an area in self defense. But the key here is "DEFENSE". I will quote Wally Jay, the founder of small circle jujitsu who said "it is not how much damage you can do to an opponent, but how little damage you can do while still controlling him". I think that quote (at least to me), really captures the spirit of Aikido. To control someone in a real street fight..were you beat him ..without harming him..as if saying I can beat without hurting you...is more humiliating that getting beat by getting bloody nose (at least to me).

[Jorge Garcia]

John,
You wrote,
"but in my opinion ..even an experience aikido player will find it difficult to deal with a lightning fast straight jab (this statement is based from my actual training in the dojo)."

You're right, I for one do disagree ( but only to a point).
You made somewhat of a blanket statement. You couldn't possibly know if your statement was true in every Aikido dojo in the world. I think you need to qualify which Aikidoists could handle a lighting fast punch. Having said that, I will say that it is true that the way many aikidoists train, they couldn't handle a lightening fast punch but you would have to have all knowledge for your first statement to be true.
I know of a shihan who was once known at the Aikikai Hombu dojo as the fastest man there. He was known within the dojo for being able to do any techniques faster than anyone else. I watched a tape from with his dojo when he was in his 50's and the ukes were running at him and attacking his as fast as they could and he was responding in kind. Some people have and do train within aikido for fas,t full speed attacks.
Secondly you said that mixed martial arts were created to cover the inadequacies of the separate martial arts. That may be true but just because that may have been the case doesn't mean that is legitimate. I don't happen to believe that a person needs mixed martial arts to adequately defend themselves against different arts or attackers if in fact they are good enough at one art. I actually believe the opposite. In my training in three martial arts, I have come to believe that each art is difficult to learn and the more arts you train in, the more diffused your effectiveness becomes overall. It may be that 10 years in one art will equal 10 years in 3 arts but again, that would depend on the natural talent and skill of the martial artist and not on the arts themselves.
Best wishes,

[john block]

First off I wanted to emphasize that Iam of the opinion, that it is imperative that we continue this thread...that ultimately (hopefully) it will lead to a better understanding of an often misunderstood art...Aikido. I wanted to clarify that because I stated that mixed martial arts were developed to try and cover the inadequacies of other specific arts, it does NOT mean Iam saying that I advocate mixed martial arts over any specific art including aikido. In point #2 of my first post I state that " Any technique can work once from any martial art, provided the timing is correct (this does not mean it will work again under the exact conditions)"...now the above applies to mixed martial arts as well. In fact personally, I prefer the traditional arts over the relative new fad of mixed martial arts (as prompted by UFC for example). Now lets examine what is it that makes any technique work in a real street fight? To answer that I would have to make reference to what I think is a pivotal book on aikido called "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere". In it the author states that there are 3 stages which determine the outcome of any potentially dangerous physical confrontation: 1)Perception 2) Evaluation-Decision 3) Reaction..the author further states the lapse of time between these 3 stages is what determines how efficiently one can defend himself/herself. In addition, the author states that Aikido teaches the frame of mind in which all three stages become simultaneous. Now is it the art or the artist which determines if a technique works in a fight? I would have to say it is a combination of both, and not one specifically. Now to address another issue which was adressed in the response to my original post, and one which has personally plaqued me.... Aikido and lack of defense against the straigh jab. True I cant say that what I have seen in my dojo applies everywhere . From my experience and my research I dont believe that Aikido teaches any specific defense against a straight jab at full speed (and one which retracts at impact). At my particular dojo we did train in full speed realistic attacks, except when first learning a techique. In closing, it seems that Joey Sola still makes a valid point when he mentions the inadequacies of Aikido against the straight lead jab coming from an experienced boxer (who can make it more difficult by keeping you at bay with low kicks to the shin and knee area if he is also trained in that area).

[Dirk Hanss]

John,
if the experienced Boxer/Karateka/mmartist is too fast for the specific aikidoka to react, none of the techniques would work. If the aikidoka is reacting instinctly, every technique against a tsuki would work against a jab, always adapted to the speed and flow of energy of the jab.

In practise, what is the standard technique of a boxer against a jab? Either to step back just a bit or a counterjab, right? In aikido these techniques are called ma-ai and atemi and work as well, if trained at the dojo. As long as it is a perfect jab that would be the preferred techniques, unless you really know how to step in. If it moves on that way for a while, it is a question, who is getting tired first. A boxer would try to find a point, where he could enter with a full power punch of the second hand and in most professional fights that I have seen, if those do not hit, there is a week point for a counter or an aikido technique.

Probably the better fighter will win and in my case, it might be the boxer, as it is a long time ago that I trained full contact.

If I thought I needed it, I probably would change dojo or ask for extra training. Fortunately the few street rowdies, I met in the recent years were very bad fighters. So for me it would be more dangerous to train full contact combat, than getting severe injuries in street fights.

I know, aikido works in a fight, I do not claim, that aikido works better than any other MA.

Don't take it too serious, but I can tell you that I only heard about one shodokai aikidoka, who was defeated in a MMA or UFC fight. There might be one or two more, that I have not heard about. But I have seen a lot of wrestlers, boxers, jujustuka, bjj'ler, jusoka, karateka, Mouay Tai fighter, and original MMArtists who looked bad and were awfully defeated in those fights. So do you know, why only few aikidoka lost a fight? The others knew how to avoid it ;)

HAND

Dirk

[Kevin Leavitt]

John thought I'd offer my perspective on a few things.

John Block wrote:called "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere". In it the author states that there are 3 stages which determine the outcome of any potentially dangerous physical confrontation: 1)Perception 2) Evaluation-Decision 3) Reaction..the author further states the lapse of time between these 3 stages is what determines how efficiently one can defend himself/herself.

I have no problem with this theory and in a sense much of it is true. I really need to go back and review this material again...but i'd also add this:

This is a scholarly dissection of the dynamics of a fight. Some what "romanticized" by what most people percieve how fights start and end. there are a few other elements/factors that play into fights that cannot be ignored. The author does state that time is the main factor that determines the outcome. I think this is probably the most important and often overlooked thing in a fight. Here are some thoughts:

Suprise, stealth, superior fire power...etc. You can percieve whatever you want to, but if someone "ambushes" you...your perception does not matter at all...only theirs. You have no choice to do anything other than what they do to you. (I believe the authors wrap all this up under the "time" aspect of things.

Evaluation and Design: again, i really probably need ot review this to completely understand where the authors are coming from...evaluation: if you are still alive and conscious after being attacked...yes you can evaluate your situation and figure out a strategy for minimizing your losses and trying to turn the tables to gain a degree of control. not sure how design plays into it? anyone? Does this refer to weapons/no weapons...distance etc..things like the situation you are presented with.? That has a huge factor for sure!

Reaction. real important. I think one of the biggest criticisms outsiders have of aikido is that we do not spend time conditioning the proper reactive responses under stress. I agree. I also don't believe that this has much place in aikido since in order to condition yourself to respond appropriately to learn Aikido (not fighting) you need to move slowly, methodically, and learn good habits. If your goal is to be a good (insert your favorite reality based scenario here), then you practice things that are geared toward developing those appropriate responses.

Personally I think there is room for slow/methodical training and for trainng for overstress. I think that it does not fit well in most aikido dojos however, nor should it necessarily.


In addition, the author states that Aikido teaches the frame of mind in which all three stages become simultaneous.

Again, in theory i'd say this is true, and over time i'd say this is true. How much time? 5, 10, 20 years of dedicated practice..then still are there any guarantees? no?

I think if you are focused on some reality based scenario or have a goal to mitigate a particular risk...you focus on developing a training methodology around that. Aikido is a DO art that is philsophically based to develop things such as spirit or character (good things IMHO), but don't try and bend the art to address "Self defense" scenarios...there are simply more efficient ways to train for this stuff if you have identified a particular risk.

Now is it the art or the artist which determines if a technique works in a fight? I would have to say it is a combination of both, and not one specifically.

I'd say it is much more complicated than that. It could be the 300lb dude that jumped out from behind a door with a huge crowbar and just bashed in your brains before you could "precieve" what just happened to you.

In all seriousness, I am not trying to attack you, only point out that we all have paradigms about the world and how it works, much of it is based on us unconsciously trying to mitigate our fears. We like for things to be neat tidy. Us intelligent aikido types like to think that we can mentally figure all this out, get the whole thing put together and be able to take care of ourselves. The fact is that for some of us, it may just be that our luck ran out and our time is up!

We probably can't even begin to prepare ourselves at all for the real threat that will take us out! All we can do is make ourselves better people, live good lives, reduce risk where we can, and be prepared to die or get mugged with dignity hopefully when the time comes! I think M/As and aikido prepare us more to deal with things from this standpoint than for any self defense standpoint.

Now to address another issue which was adressed in the response to my original post, and one which has personally plaqued me.... Aikido and lack of defense against the straigh jab.

I know I cut out alot of your post...but why concentrate on a straight jab? Aikido will fail mostly because you are focused on the wrong things. There are many more questions to ask, and to me it is much more complicated than that! Why are you standing there squared off with a guy that want to throw a jab? Apparently he has no weapon if he is throwing a jab? why not run away? why not talk him down? list can go on? Maybe he is throwing a jab and has a weapon...so why do you want to engage?

The point is, again as the authors point out perception is important. We must make sure we are framng it right. Evaluation and Design...also important..as well as your reaction. I think aikido trains our minds more to deal with people on a interpersonal level than defend against the romantic notion of a jab.

There is a reason the military doesn't spend time with aikido, nor the UFC type guys...there are simply more effective ways to deal with raw physical confrontation than aikido.

That is not to say that there is nothing to learn on the interpersonal level through aikido that can go along way from avoiding or de-escalating certain situations that can turn phyisical, but that is another issue all entirely.

I think we just need to really evaluate why we study aikido...to me it never is about self defense. Good stuff, I like having these conversations. Good material to evolve an intelligent conversation. I only hope my ramblings make some sense!

[Ron Tisdale]

I'm sorry, not pick any nits, but

the romantic notion of a jab.

That just struck me as funny...there has never been anything at all romantic about any jab I've ever been hit with. Including a few from a woman kickboxer I knew long, long ago and far, far away...

Best,
Ron

[Kevin Leavitt]

yea looking at it a guess it is kinda funny! I always picture a early 1900s boxer with his fist up turned with a slight british acent asking his opponent if he wants to engage in fistacuffs!

[marduk]

Sorry. It works.

After training for 3 years I found myself in a bar between 3 guys that wanted to fight a friend for some reason. Being younger, I stood my ground between them asking them to walk away. The 3 didn't. Two of them immediatly tried to push me out of the way while the third went after my friend. Without thinking, I did sokomen iriminage on both of them at once. They were caught completely off guard and flew off the dance floor onto their ass.

The third put up his hands and backed away. Because I wasn't aggressive, the bouncers didn't even give me a hard time.

Like anything, you do have to train hard and with a martial intent.

That was 8 years ago now.

[Ronin007]

Hi,

This is my first post so please done rip into me to much :) , and to be honest I coud'nt think of a better subject to first post on, being deep and complicated as one is prepared to make of it.

In my short time of practise it has proven difficult to use Aikido in a 'Sparring' situation, i.e. Kumite, perhaps that fact that i.e. Karate can been seen with a slightly more aggressive, punch kicks etc, not that I'm implying Aikido to be soft (As we all know, its not - if my Sensei thought that what I was implying then I would have Ukemi practise for a week :freaky: ) Karate would seem to have more of a 'Face Value'.

When Jason was forced to use his Aiki, it came to his aid successfully, surely if it didnt this doesnt make Aikido ineffective, every situtaion has different facts, the main one, the Aikidoka.

Just for example if a more combative/aggressive Art would of 'failed' would this make that Art ineffective?

To be honest this is'nt what I had in mind to write but I hoped I managed to get my some of my view across.

Thanks

Sam

[Mark Freeman]

yea looking at it a guess it is kinda funny! I always picture a early 1900s boxer with his fist up turned with a slight british acent asking his opponent if he wants to engage in fistacuffs!

And what pay tell, my good man, is so funny about a british accent and for that matter a good old bout of fisticuffs :p

kindest regards, from one of her majesty's loyal subjects
Mark

p.s i enjoyed your previous post (#587) Kevin, alot of good points, thanks. :cool:

[Kevin Leavitt]

Kinda more like a fake british accent like Niles Crane from Fraizer.

Sam, welcome!

When I first started aikido, I approached it from the paradigm of judging each and every move and technique for it's efficiency and effectiveness. Seems only logical right? I mean from a logical standpoint we should be able to "reverse engineer" and slow things down, break it down into small tiny pieces, dissect things to the very base elements and put it all back together in a methodology that works.

Why waste your time with things that are ineffective?

That is the way we are wired to think. Humans are problem solvers by nature. We were cold and we discovered radiant heat from fire, so we figured out how to process and make fire....that is what we do!

Why should martial arts be any different?

That is the logic of it all! it should be like that!

Unfortunately, with life there are things that get in the way...that cloud and muddy the waters. Situations, emotions, fears, factors...that we either cannot control or that we simply cannot understand or process (or percieve to use the Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere example).

So emotion, irrationality, and paradigms become a big part of what influences conflict.

I submit that when you enter a fight it is certainly possible to apply aiki principles, but not aiki technique. I may look at the situation and say..."yeah I used a irminage or a shionage", So "yeah...aikido works".

An outsider may look at it, not understanding aikido and say "that SOB just twisted that guys arm!". Another person may say "wow, that guy sure is patient and calm!".... it is all based on perceptions.

I think when we try and label things as "this is aikido" "that is not" "it works"..."no it doesn't" we limit ourselves mentally and physically to a very narrow set of rules and options.

The whole point of aikido, IMHO, is to expand that set of rules and the options we have available. To seek to understand conflict and the cause. To exist in the moment of the interaction we have with another person...if that interaction is a good one (positive) or a bad one (negative).

If we can do that, we can better understand the situation closer to the truth and more skillfully deal with our interaction. that to me, is the highest form and use of aikido. It may involve a basic technique we use to practice the principles that we recognize, or it may involve something more subtle that we don't recognize....what is important is that we deal with the situation with the appropriate response.

That, to me, is what we should focus on when we study...not limit ourselves...nor beat ourselves up over the most trival things like "techniques".

When we focus on our techniques...we are at probably our most "ineffectiveness" as we are not focused on the "now" or the present situation.

[Travis Johnson]

i'm sure many of you have heard this kinda thing being said before, but it's a good one! in fact, at a seminar i even heard william gleason sensei say something like this:

aikido works. if you say it doesn't work, than it's your aikido that doesn't work!

in other words, if you are in a "fight" and you think you are doing aikido but it's not working, than your body is doing something else other than aikido, maybe just failing techniques imitating aikido, etc.
but as we know aikido uses timing and blending and all these other things, so ofcourse it works. aikido blends with the moment. simply, if it doesn't work, it's not blending/joining/ with the motion, and that is not aikido!

this is hypothetical, but do you think this makes sense? someone that deeply feels it that much should be able to execute whatever kind of aikido the situation calls for! whadda' ya say, mon?

--travis

[Kevin Leavitt]

I'd say you are right!

The physical principles of aikido are based on universal princples of physics. The spiritual and philosophical principles are aligned with those that produce harmony, or attempt to resolve conflict with least possible injury, mentally, spiritually, and physically.

You can apply the physical principles or aikido and still not "be doing aikido" if the mental and the spiritual aspects are not aligned and in harmony with the situation.

We tend to focus on the external or technical aspects that we all recognize as aikido, but it is the other two aspects that are equally, if not more important. Remember the triangle, circle and the square!

[Raspado]

OMG you guys dribble on aimlessly over the what -if's. Aikido as it's practiced in most aikido schools today won't work in a MMA fight against a trained fighter-boxer, kickboxer- most of them--because the training is different. You can't compare doing randori to actual ring work where you are REALLY getting hit. Please--please tell me what aikido dojo practices that--and don't give me the "oh you can't do that in aikido because you will really hurt someone" excuse either.

That being said--is aikido good self defense? Absolutely. Will aikido work in a fight- absolutely. Will aikido work in the UFC or Pride? Nope- and it's not meant too.

[Ron Tisdale]

Aikido as it's practiced in most aikido schools today won't work in a MMA fight against a trained fighter-boxer, kickboxer- most of them--because the training is different.

I agree. Where was someone saying it would work in that environment? Seems a straw man arguement to me. That said, I also agree with your last two lines, in general.

Best,
Ron

[Raspado]

It seems to me Ron that that's where the original post came from with regards to what Joey wrote(then he subsequently disappeared). I practiced Aikido 13 years- 8 in Aikido schools of Ueshiba and 5 under Larry Reynosa. I am a shodan. I now practice bjj and judo. I hear a lot of "noise" about aikido not working in a fight in bjj circles-- but it goes back to what I was saying before--will an aikido technique work against a bjj guy? Of course--but in a fight with a bjj person 90% bjj wins. It comes down to the training. Originally Fusen Ryu newaza beat Kodokan Judo- which is why Kano then incorporated newaza into judo.

But--what people don't get is just because it won't work against some arts-doesn't mean it's not a valid self defense system.

[Kevin Leavitt]

No problem with what you are saying Mike. Actually you and I have very similar backgrounds. ASU for many years and now BJJ.

I think people really get emotionally wrapped up in what fighting is without really understanding it. When you try and frame it and break it down from the paradigm of your experiences that you gain in the dojo, you will find that you have "issues" with resolving many, many points.

You fight a fight with what works and what advantages you have. Not a training methodology like Aikido, BJJ, or anything else!

Aikido people sometimes it seems tend to limit themselves to the small framework of experience they have in a few hours a week practice. I think it is good to do this mental exercise as it causes you to question and think about real issues. It becomes a good meditation to help you develop yourself mentally and spiritually.

We all need to develop conditional responses and trigger points that are appropriate for the situation at hand. I think aikido is wonderful because at least philosophically it gives us a methodology to expand our ability to resolve conflict skillfully as possible.

Other arts do this as well, but as you know, they are not for all people, and each person must find what works for them.

I think the saddest things is when we close our minds to possibilities and things outside of our comfort zone and don't consider them options, and then we fool ourselves into thinking that we are something that we are not!

[Michael Neal]

If any of you are interested this same discussion is going on over at judoinfo.com right now. As a former Aikidoka I do realise the limitations of Aikido but also that it has many principles that can be used in any situation and the techniques can be very effective as well. Recently I have been using a modified version of one of the kokyunage throws I learned in Aikido with good success in Judo randori, it is not an ippon throw for competition purposes since I let go of the person during the throw but they slam on their back quite hard and is quite effective. This throw has worked on people who have competed and placed well in Judo on the national level.

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10079

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Michael! Good to know your training wasn't wasted, and that a kokyunage can stand up to the rigours of true randori. Stay well, and safe, and fight hard!

Best,
Ron

[Hagen Seibert]

we should give a prize to post # 1000

[gasman]

whoa 25 pages of this stuff?

so one more piece of mind wont make much difference:

Dunno if the topicstarter is still reading but here comes:

I've worked as a doorman in Oslo for a good 5 years and in that time, using my aikido training as a basis for my conflict resolution strategies I have never been hit. In fact I have seldom been attacked, notably less than my fellow collegas - who in spite of being equally disinterested in fighting - have a more agressive attitude in both the situations leading up to the clash and in the clash itself.

From taking the neutral stance, verbally, mentally, physically: not (noticeably) lifting a guard - everything is geared towards defusing the situation. At the same time, I analyse the opponent and know how to take his balance and keeping safe.

I dont know why I am even writing in this thread, Ive heard so many MMA fanatics with no respect and no understanding boast their limited knowledge of what they call self defense. They say self defense but they actually mean fighting. Go figure.

I think a person with Joeysolas attitude would have his hands full every night on that job. I would not work with a Joeysola on my team at all.

So Joeysola. Good luck in your life, and get well soon.

[Nafis Zahir]

Aren't we all forgetting something? Aikido is not a "fighting" art. So in that sense, maybe it wouldn't work in a "real" fight. But as someone who studies Aikido and once studied Kung Fu, I can tell you that in a real fight, it all depends on the practitioner. I know an Aikidoka who started studying BJJ on the side, and he said that it might work on one person, but not multiple attackers. I'va also worked out with other grappling styles and when I went into my old "horse stance" from Kung Fu, they couldn't take me down. Each style has its advantages and disadvantages. Aikido will work in self defense, but as with any art, that depends on the person. I do know of times when a street fighter beat someone who knew martial arts. I also know of times when people had to mix in something with the art they practiced in order to defend themselves. But I believe you should be true to your art and your art will be true to you. [B]

[Raspado]

Your "horse stance" kept you up? Hogwash. You trained with bad grapplers.

[Nafis Zahir]

Your "horse stance" kept you up? Hogwash. You trained with bad grapplers.

I don't think so. It is a very strong stance and one that is not easily broken. The grapplers were not bad, but I did Kung Fu for some time. I mean, eventually someone probably could get me to move and maybe even down, but knowing aikido would not make that an easy task either.

[Raspado]

You know Steven Seagal thought that too. Judo Gene Labell taught him differently. So you are telling me that you would stay in this stance and that I couldn't take you down to the ground? Too bad you don't live closer so we could discuss this further. However, I know some grapplers in the Philly area that would probably be up for the challenge--Interested?

[Nick Simpson]

Wouldnt you just kick him in the nuts?

[GLWeeks]

Wouldnt you just kick him in the nuts?

Which is the ultimate martial art after all.....

[merlynn]

Wouldnt you just kick him in the nuts?


tsk tsk mr simpson now that is very un -aiki like shame on you evileyes

[Raspado]

That's what I'm thinking!

[Dirk Hanss]

tsk tsk mr simpson now that is very un -aiki like shame on you evileyes
No Karen, you're wrong.
While kicking in the nuts does not sound aiki-like, just think the other way. The intension is not kicking in the nuts but making him move. If he does, you might be able to take him down withaout creating any pain or injury. If he doesn't move, it is his own decision, isn't it?

Or what do you think are all our atemi-exercises for? Yes if you are perfect, you do not need any atemi, all we others do ;)

Best regards Dirk

[Kevin Leavitt]

I have to side with Mike Geery on this one. Horse stance may be a strong stance, but it is also a very immobile stance. Not sure why you'd stay in an immobile position and let someone work his way around you. Hopefully it was an interim stance in a fluid situation that you adapted and moved with into the next posture to prevent a take down.

Horse stance is breakable, you just have to be at the right angle to uke in order to off balance him.

Not sure what this has to do with the thread, but we are getting one step closer to 1000...i'm watching :)

[Raspado]

My goal is to help it along to the big 1000

[Perry Bell]

You know Steven Seagal thought that too. Judo Gene Labell taught him differently. So you are telling me that you would stay in this stance and that I couldn't take you down to the ground? Too bad you don't live closer so we could discuss this further. However, I know some grapplers in the Philly area that would probably be up for the challenge--Interested?

Hey Mike

Sounds like someone has to proove him self ;)

[Dajo251]

Never bring aikido to a gun fight, it just wont work

[Nafis Zahir]

U guys are really taking this 2 far. What I was saying is that the BJJ guys are very good at taking people down quickly. The horse stance is not a stance that a BJJ guy is going to move easily. I wouldn't stand there and just let him keep on trying over and over again. Initially, he couldn't just come in and take me right down. My point to this is that in a real fight, the grappling guys, such as us (aikidoka) would not easily be taken down, and just like the BJJ guys, we know what to do once we are down. I am in Philly and would be interested in meeting the grapplers. But only on friendly terms and as a learning experience.

[Dajo251]

yeah it actually looks kind of intresting, the forum it self was a little harsh on the eyes but after looking into it, it seems cool, I could see egos being a big problem at the events though, even though they talk about leaving egos at the door

[Richard Langridge]

Last night we were doing maai (distance) training with a tanto. This taught me a heck of a lot about the reactions/movements required in such a situation. Of course, I'm not saying I'm now ready to have a knife fight, but I honestly believe that with every day of aikido training I stand a better chance of protecting myself (and hopefully others) in any situation. My point is simply that to say "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" might be true if you're aiming to beat the hell out of anyone that gets in your way, but if you're looking to survive, and better yet control the situation, aikido will work perfectly.
First time post! :)
Richard

[Steve Mullen]

and a very insightfull one it was too richard. i couldn't agree more

[Raspado]

Perry--no not for myself--but to enlighten my fellow martial artists. Nafis--if you had explained yourself originally like this it would have made more sense, however I still have to disagree with you. Perhaps "Horse Stance" doesn't lend itself to a takedown as easily as other stances, but I'm quite confident that an experienced bjj/wrestler/judoka would have little difficulty in breaking that position down. We all get caught up in the "strengths" of our own arts, and have a difficult time in seeing the weaknesses in them-especially if we've spent years working on the specific art. But--to truly open yourself to both the strengths and weakness of an art is one of the foundations (I believe) of a true martial artist. Bjj is not a good strategy for multiple opponents. It has it's weaknesses. One on one, though....different story.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Nafis,

I think you'd find most grapplers to be great people. I actually avoided BJJ for years because of a percieved attitude that turned out not to be true at all.

What you will find is that they have very little tolerance for stuff that does not work, and very little tolerance for the sensei/instructor that can teach, but cannot do.

BJJ is not the end all and be all. Actually I just recieved a copy of Helio Gracie's new book which btw, is not all about ground fighting but more about self defense and stand up, looks very similar to traditional jijistu or aikido. While I am pro BJJ, I have raised an eyebrow at some of his techniques and need to ponder them more, because I think there are better ways of doing things than what he does, but again, that is a cursory look.

BJJers spend alot of their time practicing close up Ma'ai from the clinch and on in closer. There is a good reason for this.

Equally aikidoka spend alot of time practicing Ma'ai from further out at weapons range...also a good reason for this.

I personally find that there is a time and place for both, and find Aikido and BJJ to be very, very complementary as methodologies for developing martial skill.

I was working with some new grapplers tonight, the first thing I always do from stand up is move in with my arms out, if they are not decent fighter then I let them extend, grab and then I will work kotegaeshi, ikkyo, or sankyo. Why grapple if they are going to be that easy!

However, I find that experienced fighters won't do this, nor will they commit attacks fully, or off balance. So you need an entirely different skill set to deal with this.

To me you have two choices: 1. Don't engage. 2. You don't have a choice but to engage.

Number 2 means you don't have control of the situation, maybe you were ambushed, or overwhelmed by the attacker. You can know all the irimi/tenkan randori in the world and it won't help you if you don't learn to fight in close and on the ground.

Number 1, which is the aiki perspective, means that you have options available and are in control. You can position yourself to disengage, or to be strategic in your timing/distance to shutdown possible attacks (ma'ai). You might be able to talk and calm down the would be attacker, or respond appropriately with irimi/tenkan etc to avoid the attack. It also assumes weapons. Aikido is good stuff.

It seems that we get confused about fights and what they are. To me it is simple 1. you can avoid it or 2. you can't. also 1. you can see it and control it. 2. you can't.

Developing skills for both these areas are vital. That is why I think aikido and BJJ are both good methodologies for training for appropriate response!

I'd get with some decent BJJ grapplers and explore things with an open mind...it will expand you mind!

[jpeluso]

Hello all -

I would like to relate a personal experience, just a couple of days ago i was Rio De Janeiro, and while walking on the street, someone attempted to to rob me. They were unsuccessful for one reason, and the was because of my knowledge of how the body functions which i learned through the study of aikido. The way i was able to protect myself was the a variation of udi kimi nage ( pleas excuse my spelling , i don't know if its correct) basically i was able to control the attackers wrist and pressure under his elbow and discard him without harm to either of us.
So my friend i understand your concern that that aikido techniques are not obviously effective in reality, but we are learning much more that just set of movements. we learn how to control ourselves and our environment. Which is what all martial artist do in fact learn from any art so long as they are dedicated to themselves and better understanding
i hope your training has been as successful as mine

I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

[johanlook]

The way that I've been taught Aikido is to attack the opponent's center - so that at the moment of contact I should have control. At my dojo we train at all intensities building up to full speed and power for those that want it. We have 7 kick boxers training with us and 4 BJJers, who only joined up when they were convinced through full speed, full power attacks that Aikido could work for them. The least experienced of these has had 20 years exp in kick boxing and has explained that he never willingly gives his centre away when he punches or kicks. His centre is led so that he is slightly overextended. None of the beginners can move him when he doesn't want to be moved, but those with more experience with how to lead his centre do so with less and less effort until you get to my teachers who can lead all these guys easily. At first we thought we would be able to pull back, or "retrieve" our centre, but through exp. we learned that this is not possible with someone who is knows what they're doing.

I have seen one of my teachers get involved in an altercation with 4 big men and he seemed like he was just walking through them. There was no speed, visible power, or recoginizable technique but he made their strength seem impotent, by taking their centre away from them. My other teacher too has said that Aikido should be like walking and when I or others are to attack him we are always asked to attack in any way we want. He asks the same of us in randori.

I sincerely feel for people who enjoy but have lost faith in Aikido because they believe it doesn't work, because I know that it can work, not just once or on a lucky day, but just as much as I could depend on my skills on a mountain bike to get me down a hill. Over time I'm more confident that I will arrive with myself intact.

[Nafis Zahir]

Perry--no not for myself--but to enlighten my fellow martial artists. Nafis--if you had explained yourself originally like this it would have made more sense, however I still have to disagree with you. Perhaps "Horse Stance" doesn't lend itself to a takedown as easily as other stances, but I'm quite confident that an experienced bjj/wrestler/judoka would have little difficulty in breaking that position down. We all get caught up in the "strengths" of our own arts, and have a difficult time in seeing the weaknesses in them-especially if we've spent years working on the specific art. But--to truly open yourself to both the strengths and weakness of an art is one of the foundations (I believe) of a true martial artist. Bjj is not a good strategy for multiple opponents. It has it's weaknesses. One on one, though....different story.


Point well taken. But I must say that the last time I did this, it was against a wrestler. True, we did eventually end up on the ground, but breaking my stance took him some time. I studied a Northern style of Kung Fu, where the horse stance is lower than Southern styles or even Karate. That puts my center very low and add to that the fact that my legs were strong. This person was younger and stronger than me and a champion wrestler. Again, I'm not saying I couldn't be taken down, just not that easily. It was a friendly encounter, as I have respect for all of the martial arts. It's easy to control your center when you work with someone in your own art. But when you work with someone from another art, it chnages things and it becomes a challenge. I like working out with other styles, especially the grappling styles, which I find to be much more challenging.

[merlynn]

No Karen, you're wrong.
While kicking in the nuts does not sound aiki-like, just think the other way. The intension is not kicking in the nuts but making him move. If he does, you might be able to take him down withaout creating any pain or injury. If he doesn't move, it is his own decision, isn't it?

Or what do you think are all our atemi-exercises for? Yes if you are perfect, you do not need any atemi, all we others do ;)

Best regards Dirk

no i dont need to use atemi all i have to do is show my face and that in its self is enough evileyes :p

[Dirk Hanss]

no i dont need to use atemi all i have to do is show my face and that in its self is enough evileyes :p
That's part of not-appropriate atemi; I guess. At least in our dojo ;)

You see, like stepping on the foot, exhaling onion&garlic flavour, biting the nose, etc., i.e. everything that's meaner than killing, kicking in the nuts or poking in the eyes.. :D

:cool: Dirk :cool:

[CNYMike]

... can't believe I'm keeping this thing alive .... :yuck: Forgive me; I'm weak. :(

....While kicking in the nuts does not sound aiki-like, just think the other way. The intension is not kicking in the nuts but making him move. If he does, you might be able to take him down withaout creating any pain or injury. If he doesn't move, it is his own decision, isn't it?

Every so often you hear about frightening individuals who are immune to groin attacks. This does not mean you should give up on kicking to the groin -- just have a "plan B" in mind if they don't obligingly double over in pain.


Or what do you think are all our atemi-exercises for? Yes if you are perfect, you do not need any atemi, all we others do ;)

Best regards Dirk

This is probably one of those things that varies from dojo to dojo; my impression is that since most techinques are off uke's lead hand, an atemi to the face is meant to give him something to think about so the rear hand doesn't fire and you have a second to get going. Just a thought.

[Dirk Hanss]

... can't believe I'm keeping this thing alive .... :yuck: Forgive me; I'm weak. :(
Well, at the moment it is getting funny, isn't it?

Every so often you hear about frightening individuals who are immune to groin attacks. This does not mean you should give up on kicking to the groin -- just have a "plan B" in mind if they don't obligingly double over in pain. And even if he is not immune, he might block or counter differently from what you expect. So never expect anything and always have a plan B, C, D, ...



This is probably one of those things that varies from dojo to dojo; my impression is that since most techinques are off uke's lead hand, an atemi to the face is meant to give him something to think about so the rear hand doesn't fire and you have a second to get going. Just a thought.
Yes, thanks Michael.
Just analoguous to the part above. In case uke is not able to think or realises (thinks to realise), that you would never hit him/her seriously, but just want to keep the free hand busy, you must be ready and able to do a real atemi, or you better find other strategies to not getting hit by the free hand. Ideally you just change your technique (plan ZF, I guess) and use the "new attacking arm" for it. That might help even if uke is immune against lethal atemi :p

Regards Dirk

[Takumi]

Aikido is practical for Self Defense.
I am not sure if someone has allready posted my ideas because I have not read all of the pages, so I hope I am not repeating someone else's ideas.

1. We are given information, practice, and help from our senseis'
for physical martial arts in defending yourself. The one that it is taught, does not necessarily have to be the way it is performed. You are ment to be able to mix and match certain techniques with others so that you can create an appropriate move or a new one. Therefore, it is your own creativity that you use when you are defendeing yourself. You create the move from the experience that you have learned from. If you are not intelligent enough to do that, than it will help you only some of the time in a fight.

2. Aikido is not solely about Self Defense techniques for fighting. But also for your emotions and stuff. It also teaches you other aspects to take into your life besides fighting and defending yourself.

Gambatte Kudosai. :ai: :ki: :do:

[Dirk Hanss]

Thank's Dylan,
now the circle is closed. I do not know by heart, but in most ofthese threads your arguments are found between No 2 and 10. So we can start from the beginning and easily pass the magic 1000. Or we can stop as the snake bit its tail, or so ...


Dirk

[Kevin Leavitt]

awe come on...you can do it...go back and read every single post! :) I'd have to agree with Dirk, all the questions have been answered probably in the first 10 post. That said, isn't life fun? we've pretty much darn figured all this stuff out a long time ago, but we must keep constantly questioning and reminding ourselves that which we forget all too easily!

That is why I keep responding to this thread, it is a good exercise, and there are constantly new people asking the same questions!

Life would be very boring if we just accepted things and moved on!

[CNYMike]

... In case uke is not able to think or realises (thinks to realise), that you would never hit him/her seriously, but just want to keep the free hand busy, you must be ready and able to do a real atemi .....

Weeellllll ..... I don't know you and I don't train in your dojo, so I don't know how you do things. But for the sake of safety, there have to be limits on how "real" things can be with your training partner. For instance, you can't really gouge uke's eyes out just to keep him/her on his/her toes; you should simulate it with a pat on the head, as Jun Fan/JKD people do (AFAIK). A full force strike to the face is also questionable. It's one thing if two people who are intermediate and advanced in a dojo that approves of that do things that way -- then you reduce the possibility of getting hurt, esepcially if both understand it's ok to "wake the person up." It's quite another to wail on someone who doesn't exepct it or can't handle it. If you weren't advocating that, my bad, but I had to make that point.

I've had the virtues of training safely and cuteously hammered into me for a couple of years now, so I'm a little sensitve about this issue. I'm also a big beleiver in not ambushing someone or deliberately making things difficult. That doesn't help; the other person just gets frustrated or mad.

It doesn't matter which martial art you're talking about -- you and your training partners are there to help each other learn, not beat each other to pulps. As a practical matter, remember the average MA class is about 90 minutes long; training safely insures practitioners can get all the way to the end with little more than bruises and some sore muscles, so they are healthy enough to come back again.

[CNYMike]

Life would be very boring if we just accepted things and moved on!

The threads on Aikiweb go 'round and 'round ... and 'round and 'round and 'round .... Everybody sing .... ! :yuck: :)

[Dan D Carreau]

Trust the technique.

Go through your obstacle not over it.

Dan

[Dirk Hanss]

Weeellllll ..... I don't know you and I don't train in your dojo, so I don't know how you do things. But for the sake of safety, there have to be limits on how "real" things can be with your training partner. For instance, you can't really gouge uke's eyes out just to keep him/her on his/her toes; you should simulate it with a pat on the head, as Jun Fan/JKD people do (AFAIK). A full force strike to the face is also questionable. It's one thing if two people who are intermediate and advanced in a dojo that approves of that do things that way -- then you reduce the possibility of getting hurt, esepcially if both understand it's ok to "wake the person up." It's quite another to wail on someone who doesn't exepct it or can't handle it. If you weren't advocating that, my bad, but I had to make that point.

I've had the virtues of training safely and cuteously hammered into me for a couple of years now, so I'm a little sensitve about this issue. I'm also a big beleiver in not ambushing someone or deliberately making things difficult. That doesn't help; the other person just gets frustrated or mad.

It doesn't matter which martial art you're talking about -- you and your training partners are there to help each other learn, not beat each other to pulps. As a practical matter, remember the average MA class is about 90 minutes long; training safely insures practitioners can get all the way to the end with little more than bruises and some sore muscles, so they are healthy enough to come back again.

Hi Mike,
I'ld appreciate, if someone would like to join us. Unfortunately there are not many training partners left :freaky: ;)
I said "you should be ready and able to do it". We do not do it in training. Or let me say it this way: we start slowly and increase power and speed according to both training partners actual conditions. We have not gone so far to achieve knock-outs, but some "uffs" you could hear.

So yes, you're right. Safety first. There is no need to cripple people, in order to get them ready for "real fights". At least not in the environments, I live in.

Regards Dirk

[CNYMike]

Hi Mike,
I'ld appreciate, if someone would like to join us. Unfortunately there are not many training partners left :freaky: ;)



Yeah, and you have to bury them somewhere other than under the dojo; word is your neighbors are complaining about the smell. Don't you hate that? :)


I said "you should be ready and able to do it". We do not do it in training. Or let me say it this way: we start slowly and increase power and speed according to both training partners actual conditions. We have not gone so far to achieve knock-outs, but some "uffs" you could hear.

So yes, you're right. Safety first. There is no need to cripple people, in order to get them ready for "real fights". At least not in the environments, I live in.

Regards Dirk

I stand corrected.

[theflyingheadbuttsuplex]

Wow, this thread is still going strong.

I think I posted on this thread 5 months ago.

Anyway, my opinion on why aikido doesn't seem to work to well in the boxing ring is that aikido isn't made for winning "fights" It's goal is to keep physial agression from becoming a "fight"
It isn't designed for defeating opponents in the octagon, it's supposed to restrain/ground an attacker and prevent a fight from starting without hurting attacker or defender. I think this is why it works well with law enforcement.

principals and techniqes of aikido could work well in a fight no doubt, but wouldn't be an end in itself.

Just my two cents ;)
feel free to criticise/argue/disagree with me :p

[Dennis Good]

Just a thought. I was wondering if I started a thread about an Aikido bake sale, how long would it take before the MMA/BJJ crowd claimed their cupcakes were better than the Aikido muffins. As for which style is better I believe it all comes down to context and what better actually means and who it means it to. I don't fight in cage matches, battle royal's, provoke people in bars or generaly put myself in a situation where my technical ability would be tested, I don't have the need to prove how manly I am by instigating a fight, I am always aware of my surroundings and avoid potential comfrontations in isolated areas. I am laid back and don't let my temper get the best of me. A walk with good posture and an aire of conidence of knowing that should a problem arize I have a much better chance than the average person of coming out of an altercation with minimal injuries. Since I started practicing Aikido in 1991 I have not been involved in a single fight except to break up a few fights and restrain those involved until they calmed down. To me that is what Aikido is about. So aikido is the PERFECT art (for me)

[Richard Langridge]

Nice post Dennis, I hope to share your confidence with my further training... (6th kyu) :)

[CNYMike]

Wow, this thread is still going strong.

I think I posted on this thread 5 months ago.

Anyway, my opinion on why aikido doesn't seem to work to well in the boxing ring is that aikido isn't made for winning "fights" It's goal is to keep physial agression from becoming a "fight"
It isn't designed for defeating opponents in the octagon, it's supposed to restrain/ground an attacker and prevent a fight from starting without hurting attacker or defender. I think this is why it works well with law enforcement.

principals and techniqes of aikido could work well in a fight no doubt, but wouldn't be an end in itself.

Just my two cents ;)
feel free to criticise/argue/disagree with me :p

Well, it is interesting to note that Aikido shares some footwork one would normally find in a kickboxing system. The basic shuffle step, where the leed foot moves and then the rear foot catches up, also appears in western and Filipino boxing; my kali instructor refers to it as the "step and slide." And a step shuffle and 90 degree tenkan as found in gyaku hanmi katate-dori nikkyo ura isn't too far off from the "step and circle out" found in boxing. And yes, that footwork is sometimes done from an unmatched leed, which in Aikido is called gyaku hanmi! On top of that, any Aikido person who has done a technique where nage makes the first move and they act of uke's defense knows the overall strategy that ties kickboxing to trapping and grappling.

Of course Aikido doesn't have a kickboxing on gurad position and in spite of Atemi waza, doesn't do a lot of punching and kicking from that range. But is interesting that other atoms or elements of kickboxing are there, too.

Just my 2p.

[Mark Freeman]

Just a thought. I was wondering if I started a thread about an Aikido bake sale, how long would it take before the MMA/BJJ crowd claimed their cupcakes were better than the Aikido muffins. As for which style is better I believe it all comes down to context and what better actually means and who it means it to. I don't fight in cage matches, battle royal's, provoke people in bars or generaly put myself in a situation where my technical ability would be tested, I don't have the need to prove how manly I am by instigating a fight, I am always aware of my surroundings and avoid potential comfrontations in isolated areas. I am laid back and don't let my temper get the best of me. A walk with good posture and an aire of conidence of knowing that should a problem arize I have a much better chance than the average person of coming out of an altercation with minimal injuries. Since I started practicing Aikido in 1991 I have not been involved in a single fight except to break up a few fights and restrain those involved until they calmed down. To me that is what Aikido is about. So aikido is the PERFECT art (for me)

Good post Dennis, thanks.

The whole 'aikido doesn't work at all in a fight' issue will probably never go away. I'm sure there are a few folks out there who have started a fight with someone only to be beaten by the others use of aikido who will agree that it does.
For us, the aikidoka, the focus of our practice should not be about 'fighting' at all. We have a lifetimes worth of exercises and techniques to practice, to hone, to perfect as much as possible, to teach when ready to. Fighting for 'sport' is not as far as I am concerned part of the aikido philosophy as described by the founder. Fighting for 'real' should only be engaged in as a last resort, for the purposes of protection of life.
The need to physically prove oneself against an opponent has a long history, and public fighting matches have long been a popular spectator sport. The problem here is that the actual 'fighters' are usually 'owned' or 'managed' and are in my mind the human equivalent of cockerels or dogs, just two opposing forces to be 'bet' on. Their wellbeing is secondary to the desire of the crowd to see a winner and a loser. Very base, but admittedly exciting.
Aikido should not enter into this 'ring' unless it want to be seen in the same light. It needs to stay in it's own sphere and be what it is for it's own sake.
I was very impressed by Gozo Shioda's book Aikido Shugyo. I come from the ki end of aikido, but after reading this book I really gained an appreciation of the harder martial aspects of the training and life of the author. Anyone reading it would not be inclined to say that aikido doesn't work at all in a fight.
The interesting thing is, that as the author gets older he gains a deeper understanding of O Sensei's non-violent non competetive teaching, and that winning a fight is not what aikido is about.
I too, started in 1992 and have not been involved in a fight. And I am looking forward to many more years of fight free life. The funny thing is the more I 'practice' not fighting, the more able I feel I would be should I ever 'have' to engage in one.

Cheers,

Mark

[jovcabanag]

i don't know why there are no aikido masters joined the UFC....

what is the reason behind why aikido masters even steven seagal don't want UFC?

it was said in other post is that aikido is for multiple attackers? if that so then you need to prove if aikido can handle one attacker by joining the UFC.

[Dajo251]

IMO aikido isnt about fighting, there for it has no place in the UFC which is all about fighting,

[Derek Gaudet]

it was said in other post is that aikido is for multiple attackers? if that so then you need to prove if aikido can handle one attacker by joining the UFC.

The UFC proves you are good at sport fighting, nothing more. Contrary to belief, UFC isn't "no holds bared", there are rules, and therefore it is not the same as a real fight, where there are no rules.

[xuzen]

MMA people argue:- TMA people (including Aikido-ka) sucks because they don't spar live and do resistant randori and does not join Pride, K-1 to prove their prowess.

TMA people argue:- MMA sucks because they only concentrate on ring fight with man made rules and do not do weapon based training, hence is not realistic enough.

Well, depending on how you see it, both side think that each other sucks. There you go... enternally a catch 22 situation.

Have we reach the 1,000th post yet?... No? ... Damn!

Here is a game, the first person to reach 1,000th post will get free aikiweb m'ship for free. How is that?

Jun? Game for this challenge?

[Peter Seth]

Hi All.
If Aiki principles are employed properly you can 'win' a fight by not fighting at all. (Bruce Lee on the boat scenario). 'Big' aikido (life) can be a battlefield, the more you can harmonise your spirit and energies with the 'stuff' going on round you the better. But, to be realistic sometimes a fight is unavoidable, I think if I was aware of the situation developing I could use my somewhat limited skills (bout 30years) to 'not be there' or at least minimise any damage to myself. Untill I could get to my 'aiki car' and run the b*****rs over. (just joking) Maybe?
Pete
Only 647!! :)

[CNYMike]

i don't know why there are no aikido masters joined the UFC....

what is the reason behind why aikido masters even steven seagal don't want UFC?


Why should they? Getting ready for the ring/octagon/whatever is a lot of work, and order of magnitude beyond the intensity of training most people do. If you want to do it, it's worth it. If you don't, you don't.



it was said in other post is that aikido is for multiple attackers?....

IMHO, "proof" of whether Aikido works in real life comes from testimonials of people who use it in real life. I found one such testimonial in this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=135908&postcount=590

If it works in real life, then there's no point in arguing it shouldn't, or posting "I dare you!" articles about why Aikidoka aren't in the UFC.

There's nothing wrong with the UFC, and we should respect the fighters who participate and commend their efforts. But it doesn't "prove" anything about real life, one way or the other. If it did, Aikido and other TMA would never work in real life. They do, so the UFC doesn't.

[Richard Langridge]

Well put Michael, I agree entirely.
And to those people out there who think UFC=real, check out the rules: http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
Funny how just about everything you might think about doing to defend against a BJJ grappler seems to have a rule against it... almost as though BJJ practitioners had an unfair advantage... hmm... ;)

[Raspado]

UFC rules do not imply that they are set rules for BJJ students Richard. No one is questioning whether or not aikido is a good self defense art. IT IS NOT A FIGHTING ART. I can tell you from personal experience however, eye gouging, groin grabs--does not work if you are fighting a grappler and you have no ground experience. How many aikido people have challenged the Gracies? MANY! Who has come out on top?

[Dajo251]

Id be intresting to see some documentation about aikidoka challenging the Gracies......

[Roy Dean]

The Mits Yamashita Interview is a classic source of documentation:

http://www.realfighting.com/0702/yamashtaframe.html

This interview inspired me to begin training in BJJ! Now I also see how the two arts are perfect compliments to each other...

Roy Dean

[Richard Langridge]

Hehe, yeh sorry it was shameless stirring on my part. :D

[Raspado]

hahahahhahaha! I love it! Keep it up!

[Raspado]

Cool story by the way Roy. I agree completely.

[Koren Ko]

Excuse me,

Please forgive my rather impatient/quick question...
after reading for about an hour and the beginning 7 pages.
I just wonder, do that Mr "joeysola" still around and pokes his view? Or leave it cool? up to today?

How come this post still runs hot and popular after almost 5 and 3 quarters years? (Ignore exact time duration please)
Why not anyone who are still around in the akikweb forum make a summation of what they wrote in the past, over here so to help other newcomers (or impatient reader like me :P) to get a immediate knowledge of what's going on?(People tend to skip the long lists of replies....)

Btw, just wanna say that all forms of martial arts do have limits and there is no ultimate super martial art at all. What is out there is the will of a human whom overcome those limits. If there is an ultimate martial art, then its akin to get an ending interger for the famous pai, 3.142....

Unless its obstacles of your life, just avoid unnecessary troubles. You will be stupid to pedal up many cycles of hate and ignorance.

Just my 2 cents thought.

Thanks!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Sweet! we are back to the Aikido, UFC, and the Gracies debate again! Man I love it!

I am an aikidoka and a MMA/BJJ guy. Here are a few comments from my perspective.

1. Aikido is a methodology generally designed to teach the princples of aiki, while it is based on aikijitjisu and traditional fighting arts of the japanese in pre colonial era...it's focus is really not designed will to adapt to fighting the gracies are anyone else for that matter. While you may be able to glean some useful techniques to defend yourself or to protect yourself in a mutually agreed to bar fight (yes all bar fights are require two or more parties that have agreed to fight), or a mugging these things are not aikido, even if you might call it that...it is using your faculties to fight or defend.

2. BJJ is also a system or methodology for training. It has a different focus and therefore has adapted a different strategies based on the same basic platform as aikido, but because of their perspective...they focus on more close in ground fighting for the most part. Same statements about fighting apply to this art as well.

3. Gracies created UFC to promote their system. So no wonder why they were so effective in the ring. If an aikidoka developed a system, it would look alot different. Probably the reason why you don't see it, is that it would look very stupid, or be very dangerous with weapons in the ring. Try and get insurance for that event!

That said, it doesn't mean aikido is "too lethal" and "better" than BJJ...simply a different perspective and dynamic...one that does not adapt to sport fighting.

4. Rules. Okay, you really think aikido has "no rules"? It has more rules than BJJ I think! I'd love to walk into an aikido class and be able to set the tempo and do whatever I want!

All forms of combat and fighting has rules. Ever hear of the Geneva convention? All militaries and fighters train to exploit the rules to the maximum advantage. You do what works!

5. Challenging the gracies. I haven't fought the Gracies, but I have fought and trained with a few closely related students from Brazil. Come on...think about it! Back to the rules...whose are we going to use? Can I have a knife? Gun? can I jump him when he doesn't expect it one afternoon? how about when he is sleeping, or in a restaurant on a date?

Any fight we tend to think of as a "mutually agreeable" "no rules" fight will have some rules...even if they are limited. The thing with BJJ and submission fighting is that these guys have removed as many rules as possible without risking death or going to jail...They have very, very efficiently devised systems of training which allow one to train to be very good at this type of fighting. Aikido simply does not play this game.

So go ahead master aikidoka...jump into the ring with a gracie purple belt and I will watch you get smoked playing by those rules.

BJJ has many, many advantages, as does aikido, but you have to really, really understand what each of those methodologies are conditoning and training you to do.

I train soldiers in BJJ and MMA concepts...the army has invested lots of time and bucks in this area...why? because we have found in combat that these systems best exploit and develop soldiers for the type of situations they will face in unarmed combat.

If they have distance and time...well we are going to use another means of force to gain the upper hand.

Why not aikido...nothing against the art...it simply does not present a methodology that is efficient in training for those particular scenarios we have deemed to be or high probability.

I do however, use aikido concepts and principles daily when we train...especially when we get into striking weapons. Although we have found kali, and escrima to be better models for this.

I know most of us have limited time to train, and we come into the arts for various reasons, most of the time we are attracted to the MA for reasons we really don't understand or for irrational reasons, that seem rational at the time (i.e. self defense).

Because of this limited time you have you want to make the most of it. We also want to study something we think will benefit us immensly. We tend to compare ourselves to others and to other arts...that is were we go wrong! We all need that validiation that what we are studying will make us the best!

However, the best at what???? there is no one martial art that will make you the best at everything martial. plus, we all don't have the luxury of time to focus on the whole big enchalada!

Study aikido for what aikido was meant to be studied for! (good luck figuring out what it is! :)) Study BJJ for what it was meant to be studied for! Get to know yourself, and ask yourself why you are studying MA...then spend many, many years discovering the answer!


Good luck on your journey!

[Derek Gaudet]

Someone might as well start a thread entitled "Brazilian Jujutsu Vs. Aikido", I think we've left the "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" stage. Seems like there's a lot of hostility between BJJ and Aikido, maybe the more important question is: WHY? This is the same as "Karate is better then Tae Kwon Do"... we all might want to except the fact that the art that works is the one that works for us, and get away from the proving it on the street, in the Ring or whatever.... 2 more cents tossed into the hat ;).

[Koren Ko]

Someone might as well start a thread entitled "Brazilian Jujutsu Vs. Aikido", I think we've left the "Aikido doesn't work in a fight" stage. Seems like there's a lot of hostility between BJJ and Aikido, maybe the more important question is: WHY? This is the same as "Karate is better then Tae Kwon Do"... we all might want to except the fact that the art that works is the one that works for us, and get away from the proving it on the street, in the Ring or whatever.... 2 more cents tossed into the hat ;).

Agree,I am for the cross training and gaining experiences, but not the hostility.

I dun think Karate is greater of TaeKwonDo and vice versa for any other style too.
Like I said, there is no ultimate martial art style. It is the practioner's awareness and potential makes a martial art looks...ultimate than he/she's opponent.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Derek wrote:

Seems like there's a lot of hostility between BJJ and Aikido, maybe the more important question is: WHY?

I believe it is ignorance. If you could look back on some of the post going back to 1996 or so on the aiki listserve....you'd find I too was having many of the same issues and arguments!

[Keith R Lee]

I think Kevin summed things up very, very well in his post (#657). Aikido and BJJ are different strokes for different folks. In terms of Aikido vs BJJ, I don't think this really exists that much. It's more BJJ guys vs ALL TMAs. BJJ guys have very little patience in terms of anything that does not immediately make them a better fighter. The way they determine this is they take whatever they have just learned and attempt to apply it while "rolling." (read: full speed grappling to tapout).

If it doesn't work, they throw it out. Guess what? Aikido rarely, if ever, works in that type of situation on the ground. Hell, it doesn't work that well standing up either, especially since the other guy is trained, and actively resisting your technique. Not to mention, if you don't what to do when someone shoots in for a double leg, low level single, fireman's carry, etc. you're probably screwed. I've yet to meet a "pure" Aikidoka who knows what these techniques are. Therefore, BJJ guys tend to dismiss Aikido immediately out of hand when they encounter it. Not to mention, as I have brought up before, the type of person who is at a BJJ/MMA gym (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=123179#post123179), is of a certain sort. A small snip from that post:

Contrast that with a twenty-something year old fit male (generally these are most "fighters"), who played sports in high school, probably a football player or wrestler. This person is already fit and is used to high-stress, high-risk training already. They've heard about the Gracies, and have caught some of the recent Ultimate Fighter stuff. Maybe seen a UFC PPV or if they've got the right friends, they've seen PrideFC.

They walk into an Aikido dojo for a look. Everyone is wearing uniforms and skirts! It looks all soft, not like the fighting they saw on TV. No competition, that's weak. This guy has been competing his entire life, he's fine with it. Everything is in Japanese too. I have to learn a different language to learn this stuff!? They seem to roll around all the time and do blending exercises. There's also a bunch of bowing and stuff. The weapons are kinda cool, but he doesn't really plan on carrying a sword around with him all the time.

Then he goes to a BJJ or MMA gym. Gym! It's already better. No fancy names for everything here! Everything's pretty much in English. Some guys are wearing uniforms, no skirts though. Lots of people are just in shorts and rash guards. They do a bunch of conditioning at first. Cool. This guy is in shape. He likes doing sit-ups and push-ups and stuff. They do some weird things he's never seen before but he can recognize them for conditioning drills. No one bows, they all just shake hands. Much better. They really go at it while training too. No big throws or anything but, depending on if it's a BJJ or MMA place, the guy might see combination drills, lots of movement drills, takedowns, bag work, mitt work, groundwork…Hey, this is like the UFC. These guys are getting ready to fight! Then they do fight! At the end they spar or roll till one taps out. And everyone is intense. There is no one casual here. Everyone is an athlete.

Where do you think our potential student is going to go?

Through sheer physical strength and conditioning, a mid level BJJ guy is going to be able to handle almost any Aikidoka just because of the type of people who rise to the top of the art. That's why they have weight classes, etc. Size matters.

All that being said, Aikido is still great! It's an awesome art that focues on a few certain things. Aiki, timing, movement, distance. Although, at high levels I think almost everyone would agree that most martial arts are about the latter 3 things, grappling included. Ask any grappler who has good sweeps what is the most important part, the foot movement or the timing? I think that part of the problem also lies with Aikido students. Because they never have the opportunity to actually test their tachnique, they are very touchy about it. Most rely on hearsay and trust in their sensei that their techniques work. So when Aikido gets challenged, they automatically go on the defensive about the art.

When in reality, I think grappling is a fantastic supplement to Aikido training. The interview Roy Dean link earlier in the thread is a great example of why to study Aikido plus grappling and an awesome example of a sensei who is willing to challenge his assumptions and grow as a martial artist. Very inspiring.

Of course, with all this BJJ vs Aikido, vs whatever, we Sambo guys just kick back knowing our fighting system is the most superior one on the planet and let you guys squabble amongst yourselves. ;)

Any doubters can take it up with Fedor Emelianenko (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=1500). :p

[Raspado]

Great post Keith, one problem is Fedor's main background is JUDO!!!! : )

Now seriously guys--look what's wrong with TMA's:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8405100700131982483&q=nog+pride&pl=true

[Raspado]

Fedor:

http://fedor.bel.ru/bio/index_eng.shtml

[Neil Mick]

Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Talking about Aikido does not work at all, in regards to fighting. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Raspado]

Uh, ok Neil. Very prophetic.

[Michael Douglas]

I'd just like to applaud Kevin Leavitt's post.
Very nice.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks for the compliment. Sorry for all the mistakes and grammatical errors, I was on a roll and in a hurry!

Mike love the bullshido clip, I loved the cat walking in the background of the one guy! Some of it reminds me of some of the crazy things I used to do when I first started training!

Keith, you sambo guys rule! Wish i had some to study with! It looks like a pretty decent blend of greco, jiujitsu, and aikido to be honest!

[CNYMike]

....It's more BJJ guys vs ALL TMAs .....

Yes, some posters I've seen on the 'net over the years sound as if they want TMAs to be totally stamped out. I don't understand this, especially as I can not recall evern reading a TMA person writing about how BJJ et al should be stamped out. If I'm wrong, mea culpa, but usually the BJJ/MMA loud mouths are on the offensive. But are such people the rule or a very vocal exception? When I joined Aikiweb, Michael Neal's posts made me think there's a feud between Judo and AIkido; now it looks like enough people do both that Mike may be feuding, but no one else is.

Like you say, Keith, different strokes for different folks, but even then, who's to say "the sort" who looks into an Aikido dojo might not say "Hey, this is kind of interesting and fun even though it's not what I'm used to, so I'll stick with it." Marketing people talk about demogrpahichs and psychographics, the latter being harder to predict because it's what's in their head. So you might think are 20-something grappler might automatically eschew Aikido, but some might not. I recall a post here a long time ago when someone who had tried Aikido said he liked it so much he would keep doing it and BJJ.

One reason I advocate cross training is because if you do both arts A and B, then with both inside you, you can't really get too mixed up in "this verus that." You have both games under your belt. If you think Aikido is enough, do just that. You want to cross-train, do that, too. It's a question of what works for you, and the devil take what anyone else thinks.

[CNYMike]

Well put Michael, I agree entirely.
And to those people out there who think UFC=real, check out the rules: http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
Funny how just about everything you might think about doing to defend against a BJJ grappler seems to have a rule against it... almost as though BJJ practitioners had an unfair advantage... hmm... ;)

Wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaalllllll ..... It may not be that clear cut. A long time ago I was at a seminar with Eric Paulson (that or I sat in on a work shop) and he said hitting a grappler in the groin when he was on top of you would just get him mad. Not a good idea. And so not something you would bank on in that situation.

Some things are illegal probably for safety, like going for the throat or the trachea. Others, like small joint manipulation, well IF you can get it the fight ends too fast. But they are hard to get according to my Kali instructor.

So -- just to confuse everyboy by having a foot on the other side of the fence -- I wouldn't look at the rules as rigging the game by ruling out things grpallers are vulnerable to. They're worth noting, but I would keep it in perspective.

[Richard Langridge]

Yeh I know Michael, I was just being cheeky. :p

[Josh Reyer]

[ramble]
Yes, some posters I've seen on the 'net over the years sound as if they want TMAs to be totally stamped out. I don't understand this, especially as I can not recall evern reading a TMA person writing about how BJJ et al should be stamped out. If I'm wrong, mea culpa, but usually the BJJ/MMA loud mouths are on the offensive. But are such people the rule or a very vocal exception? When I joined Aikiweb, Michael Neal's posts made me think there's a feud between Judo and AIkido; now it looks like enough people do both that Mike may be feuding, but no one else is.


I'm reminded of when Johnny Cash covered Nine Inch Nails' "Hurt". A fair number of NIN fans lamblasted it. A fair number of Johnny Cash fans crowed that The Man in Black had taken some two-bit, new fangled alternative rock band's song and made it something powerful and magical with his talent.

The musicians themselves, in contrast to their fans, had/have much greater eclectic tastes. Trent Reznor respected Johnny Cash and went from "flattered" that Cash would do the song to powerfully moved by the video. Cash, of course, listened to Nine Inch Nails and enjoyed the song enough to want to cover it in the first place.

It's not uncommon for hip-hop artists to have much more eclectic tastes and wider musical influences than they are given credit for.

In the same way, I think the people in martial arts who are the equivalent of these professionals, those who have made it their whole life, have the same kind of wide view of the whole situation. They understand the weaknesses in their own art and the strengths of others, and why each trains the way it does. It's the hobbyists, the "fans" as it were, who have the myopic views for the most part.

/broad generalizations

[deepsoup]

Trent Reznor respected Johnny Cash and went from "flattered" that Cash would do the song to powerfully moved by the video.
<ot>
Anyone not powerfully moved by that video, Johnny Cash fan or not, must surely have a heart of stone.
</ot>

[milhasan]

I am new in this forum.I was lurking in several martial arts forums at least last 6 months.There are nothing but Bjj trolls saturating the forums. Per these trolls, all martial arts are being owned by Bjj. They are not only blasting Aikido, you ought to read about TKD & other striking arts they are after. After a brief conversation with A Bjj instructor this is what I learned. Most of this Bjj trolls are those,so called, 3 month & quit experts. Usually they can be seen in local judo/jujutsu tournament as a loud spectator wearing TAP OUT t-shirt. Also starting fights in the parking lot after the tournament. Real dedicated Bjj practitioners are not bashing other arts in the net. And also they are taking up a striking art such as Muay Thai, Boxing etc.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, is'nt it goes everything against most of the traditional arts to be in a fight? Self defense, yes. Fighting, No. Self defense is legal. Fight, not legal. As a practitioner of Aikido, we ought to know, how not to get into a fight to begin with.

Now to the Bjj/MMa cult... Aikido went under a lot of trial for the SELF DEFENSE in the street & passed with flying colors. Have Bjj/MMa done that yet? Then why is one of the Gracie stated, for self defense" get a gun"? Not all Aikidoka is out of shape . A lot of Aikidoka that I know are black belts from other arts. Some of them were already unfair, vicious street fighters before starting Aikido. Can they go to a Bjj class & train? Yes they can . They got the time & money to do that. But, these guys don't like to roll around on the street trying to get a armbar or rear naked choke. Guess why? Because these guys have concealed weapons permit & carry guns. I don't think anybody that carries a concealed gun wants to do that in right mind. Here in Orlando, Sheriffs dept. have their own Aikido dojo. They could have chosen BJJ like Marines did. But in urban environment, Aikido proven to be the right choice for them. Massad Ayoobs LF1(Lethal force institute) chosen Aikido Techniques for their hand to hand defense course. You think these people don't have street experience? Even the most experienced street fighter & knife expert Marc Macyoung refuses to use BJJ/MMa ufc style cage fighting in the street. He is the most vocal opponent of traditional styles. Read what he has to say about Bjj/MMa in the street.
My point... Stop going around & bashing TMA. We Don't practice martial arts months, years so we can be a BAAD *ss fighter. I am not looking forward to go out & fight somebody to prove my superior style of martial art. Because, I live in a real world. I don't live in a UFC soap opera. I know that a 12 year old punk with a $50 dollar Raven .25 caliber pistol can end my years of training, sweat & blood. Then again it's just me. Maybe Bjjr's can dodge bullets too?

My apology to all posters for ranting . I just can't take any longer of this kind of Art bashing. I needed to get this off my chest. Thanks

[Josh Reyer]

Here in Orlando, Sheriffs dept. have their own Aikido dojo. They could have chosen BJJ like Marines did. But in urban environment, Aikido proven to be the right choice for them. Massad Ayoobs LF1(Lethal force institute) chosen Aikido Techniques for their hand to hand defense course. You think these people don't have street experience?

The Tokyo Metropolitan Police mobile police, the Special Assault Team, and the Security Police (=Secret Service), who have a lot to choose from in terms of MA, and who must surely be discriminating on such matters, have all made Yoshinkan Aikido their unarmed martial art of choice, or at the least one of their unarmed martial arts of choice. So, as far as I'm concerned, aikido has plenty of street cred, and its all down to the man and the context.

[Man of Aiki]

I first visited this forum over 3 years ago shortly after this thread first started.

It was begun by a guy who had seen two of the early UFC/MMA events where guys who called themselves 'Aikidoists' were easily dispatched by juijitsu stylists. From this, he adduced that Aikido would not work in a 'real fight'.

having seen one of the matches he was referring to, it was obvious to me that a sport begun by grapplers, on a very soft grappling surface, and with rules favoring grapplers is mostly won by.....grapplers.

It's also true that far too many Aikido schools spend all their time teaching students how to deal with traditional attacks; shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, maybe a front kick, etc.

Very few Aikido schools of the traditional sort I have seen teach students how to avoid an opponent ducking and shooting in below waist level and grabbing you around the knees, taking you down and then climbing on top of you and pounding your face into a pizza.

Which is precisely how the supposed Aikidoka in the video I saw got taken out.

Now, why is that?

Well Aikido was formed for use on the battlefield where weapons are present. Not too many schools of thought on warfare believe it's a good idea to try to take an enemy down to the ground and then sit on top of him when combat is going on all around you.

Many Aikido techs come from either taking on an opponent armed with a sword or a staff or knife or where the proponent had the sword or staff.

Judo/Jujitsu the way these MMA guys are practicing it depends on shooting in on an UNARMED opponent.

Yeah it's 1643 and I'm involved in a big battle on the Japanese mainland. There's a warrior on the other side over there who's been training to use that sword he's carrying since he was 5 years old. I've lost my own weapon, so now I'm gonna RUN OVER THERE AND GO LOW AND TACKLE THE GUY AROUND THE KNEES AND TAKE HIM DOWN.

Uh-huh. Suuuuuuuuure I am.

If you ended up taking an armored, weapon carrying warrior on the battle-field with your bare hands you had a far better chance of surviving if you knew aikijutsu. Trying BJJ in that situation would just get you killed.

O-Sensei developed Aikido from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu which, lest we forget, was a samurai BATTLEFIELD ART. It was formulated from weapons techniques primarly to allow a warrior to survive an encounter with an ARMED OPPONENT.

This is why the one key thing missing from most Aikido instruction is low shoots or tackles below the waist, because on the battlefield anybody who charged an armed opponent like that died very suddenly.

Some schools have recognized this, and used Aikido principles to formulate defenses against low takedowns and below the waist tackles.

Others still content themselves with teaching students only how to avoid standup attacks, the basic strikes, mostly punches and grabs and maybe a kick or two mixed in.

BJJ and other MMA centric arts were formulated on the presupposition of two UNARMED people facing each other in an equal contest. Aikido and the traditional arts of Japan and China were NOT formulated on similar foundations. It was assumed always that at least ONE of the parties was armed.

[schultzfactor]

Aikido is a means NOT to fight. I boxed for 12 years, learned how to fight and also how to be an idiot. When I became a bit older and more educated, I started practicing Aikido and learned how NOT to fight. If victory, is something one craves, assertion if you could call it that, succuss maybe , do something else. If you want to get your "Black Belt" , I'll post you one and let you get on with conquering all the arts. I somehow believe that once you've done it all, are older and wiser, and would like to establish some meaning in the practice of arts, you might return with a more mature vision of what you'd like from yourself.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Not sure exactly who is bashing aikido in this thread in last several months. Essentially I see it as an fairly intelligent coversation dissecting aikido...what it is...and what it isn't.

Mohammed, many of your comments and insights are correct. I agree aikido techniques work pretty darn well for law enforcement and civil arrest techiques. I have not been to too many schools that cater to LE community, but I bet you will find that they concentrate on those things that work well, another words they adapt aikido techniques and principles for their needs. Many schools also teach some very basic grappling and BJJ is every bit involved in LE as is aikido and many other MAs. Point is, there is room for many of the techniques. LE and the military adapt what works best for them....they don't teach TMA or waste precious time on learning TMA...it is the jitsu not the DO that is important to them.

Brian, many of your points are good and well documented by history and here on aikiweb as well. I believe however that you must be careful not to over romanticize the battlefield of yore. Certainly aikijitsu and dyaito ryu had at the heart of it's core the very essence of what you talk about, but I'd bet they spent sometime in the clinch as well. Again, they adapted their system for what was best for them in battle.

Now, for Kano and Ueshiba, they adopted the jitsu arts for philosophical reasons and made them into a DO art. The reasons for doing them completely changed what was important.

The reason we don't practice shooting, clinching, and grappling in aikido probably has more to do with the fact that those things did not communicate the message, concepts, and principles of the founder than they had to do with not being relevant or martially effective.

The USMC did not adapt BJJ as the base for their art. In fact in is more based on LINES training. Plus believe it or not, it was very heavily influenced by Dr. Richard Strozzi-Heckler, a very accomplished Aikido Sensei!

The U.S. Army bases their system on BJJ and we spend about 70% of our time working on the basics of this, but it is not the complete part of the system. There are many reasons for doing our methodology this way. 1. you gain useful skills quickly. 2. Less room for injury. 3. Builds the warrior spirity. 4. sustainable with little or no equipment...the list goes on.

Doesn't really matter why the army picked it....the point is they did it because they felt it worked best for them. THis fact does nothing to invalidate aikido as an art or way..just not what was best for the Army.

A big paradigm shift has been happening in the last 10 years or so in the MMA community. I believe it has alot to do with the fact that TMAs and fighitng has matured in the west alot. We have a huge book of knowledge now to draw on that simply did not exsit 50 years ago. Certainly the Gracies and UFC were the catalyst for that shift. However...that is a different topic all together!

The big thing is I think to really understand why you are studying martial arts and aikido and make sure that those reasons properly align with the goals that you have. It may be that aikido serves those goals...it may not.

It is the fighter, the opponent, and the situation that makes the fight...not the art that you studied or identify with!

[Michael Douglas]

Brian Cates stated ;
" Well Aikido was formed for use on the battlefield where weapons are present."

But that is absolutely untrue.
What made you think that Brian?

[CNYMike]

.....After a brief conversation with A Bjj instructor this is what I learned. Most of this Bjj trolls are those,so called, 3 month & quit experts. Usually they can be seen in local judo/jujutsu tournament as a loud spectator wearing TAP OUT t-shirt. Also starting fights in the parking lot after the tournament. Real dedicated Bjj practitioners are not bashing other arts in the net .....

That's good to know. Thank you for posting that bit of information.

From now on I will try to avoid feeding the trolls.

[CNYMike]

..... The reason we don't practice shooting, clinching, and grappling in aikido probably has more to do with the fact that those things did not communicate the message, concepts, and principles of the founder than they had to do with not being relevant or martially effective ....

Yes, I think there was something in another thread is that O Sensei dropped ground grappling because he didn't like it. Kickboxing technqies also seem to be avsent from Daito-Ryu from the looks of my copy of Hidden Roots of Aikido. To make matters more complicated, there's nothing really new in Aikido techniques -- not the joint locks, not in the footwork and evasive patterns, nothing. So if Aikido can "work" in those situations is something you kind of have to figure out for yourself, and that assumes you can distinguish something influenced by Aikido. What do you look for? I've been keeping an eye on my practice sparring to see if anything "pops" out, but with everything I do involving close range techniques and grappling of one sort or another, how would I know Aikido if I did it?

Just a few thoughts that make me crazy at night.

[Kevin Leavitt]

good stuff Michael. I think you stop worrying about if you are working within the confines of aikido and simply worry if what you are doing is simply effective to reaching your desired endstate or scenario.

What I do is conceptualize a particular scenario, then figure out a strategy for defeating that scenario, it may be something I learned in class, something I heard on the internet, or something I saw in a book.....then I go into the dojo and work on it with several people to see if it will work. I have one guy in particular that is a pain in the butt. If it works on him, then it will pretty much work on anyone. This same guy is not very cooperative and has a real hard time with aikido concepts! (thats another issue and why he doesn't improve in other areas of his training!)

All that said, scenario based training is good to do, however, it really does not fit well into many traditional aikido dojos from my experiences and can really defeat the dynamic you are trying to create in an aikido dojo to teach people aikido principles. That is why you probably don't see much of the grappling going on. it would be disruptive and not serve much function...in fact it would probably be counterproductive to a degree in many situations.

Do aikido principles apply to grappling and fully resistive opponents? Oh you bet they do! Ask Jason Delucia and his dojo. Watch or roll with some of some really good BJJ guys. Omaplata became much easier for me once I realized that it was basically ikkyo with your leg around uke's arm!

as always, i reiterate...make sure you really understand why you are studying what you are studying, question it, and figure out what methodologies accomplish those goals.

I find aikido to be a very, very good practice in refining many of my martial skills. I wish I had much more time to spend on it than I do right now! However, based on what my goals are, aikido does not fill all my needs. again, it has nothing to do with if it works in a fight or not!

[dan guthrie]

I emailed Mr. Ayoob a few hours ago and I got this reply:

"Aikido is great for threat management and self-defense.

1. Expressly geared to work for small people against large people.
2. Impact is dependent on too many variables; the leverage that is the core of Aikido is an immutable law.
3. A punch in the mouth looks vicious to the witnesses, and can easily cause $25,000 costs in maxillo-facial reconstruction before you get into "pain and suffering." An Aikido thumb-lock leaves no artifact unless you have to break the thumb, and it looks to the witnesses as if you're helping the poor drunk to get to the door without falling down.
4. A little research will show how heavily modern handgun retention training, disarming training, and police defensive tactics (unarmed control and arrest techniques) rely on core Aiki principles.

You damn betcha I believe in Aikido. No one art is everything, but Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations.

best,
Mas
massadayoob@aol.com"



I hope this doesn't open another dimension of argument here, I was just impressed he answered so quickly.


So, now it's finally settled: Aikido does work in a fight. Phew!!

:D

[Man of Aiki]

Michael, you are right. I misspoke in that post.

What I meant to say was the Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu, the Kenjutsu sword arts and the Staff arts which O-Sensei learned and then transformed into Aikido were all developed for use on the battlefield by the samurai.

I did not mean to imply that AIKIDO itself was formed for use on the ancient battlefield.

Thank you for pointing out my mis-speaking on that subject.

The arts from which Aikido was derived were battlefield arts, but Aikido is not itself a battlefield art.

I have gone back and edited that point to bring out what I was saying more clearly and correct the misuse of the word "Aikido" instead of saying 'the arts from which Aikido was derived'.

[Man of Aiki]

Here is the edited and corrected post:

I first visited this forum over 3 years ago shortly after this thread first started.

It was begun by a guy who had seen two of the early UFC/MMA events where guys who called themselves 'Aikidoists' were easily dispatched by juijitsu stylists. From this, he adduced that Aikido would not work in a 'real fight'.

having seen one of the matches he was referring to, it was obvious to me that a sport begun by grapplers, on a very soft grappling surface, and with rules favoring grapplers is mostly won by.....grapplers.

It's also true that far too many Aikido schools spend all their time teaching students how to deal with traditional attacks; shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, maybe a front kick, etc.

Very few Aikido schools of the traditional sort I have seen teach students how to avoid an opponent ducking and shooting in below waist level and grabbing you around the knees, taking you down and then climbing on top of you and pounding your face into a pizza.

Which is precisely how the supposed Aikidoka in the video I saw got taken out.

Now, why is that?

Well arts that Aikido was derived from, such as Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu, was formed for use on the battlefield where weapons are present. Not too many schools of thought on warfare believe it's a good idea to try to take an enemy down to the ground and then sit on top of him when combat is going on all around you.

Many Aikido techs come from either taking on an opponent armed with a sword or a staff or knife or where the proponent had the sword or staff.

Judo/Jujitsu the way these MMA guys are practicing it depends on shooting in on an UNARMED opponent.

Yeah it's 1643 and I'm involved in a big battle on the Japanese mainland. There's a warrior on the other side over there who's been training to use that sword he's carrying since he was 5 years old. I've lost my own weapon, so now I'm gonna RUN OVER THERE AND GO LOW AND TACKLE THE GUY AROUND THE KNEES AND TAKE HIM DOWN.

Uh-huh. Suuuuuuuuure I am.

If you ended up taking an armored, weapon carrying warrior on the battle-field with your bare hands you had a far better chance of surviving if you knew aikijutsu. Trying BJJ in that situation would just get you killed.

O-Sensei developed Aikido from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu, Kenjutsu, and Spear/Staff arts which, lest we forget, were samurai BATTLEFIELD ARTS. It was formulated from weapons techniques primarly to allow a warrior to survive an encounter with an ARMED OPPONENT.

This is why the one key thing missing from most Aikido instruction is low shoots or tackles below the waist, because on the battlefield anybody who charged an armed opponent like that died very suddenly.

Some schools have recognized this, and used Aikido principles to formulate defenses against low takedowns and below the waist tackles.

Others still content themselves with teaching students only how to avoid standup attacks, the basic strikes, mostly punches and grabs and maybe a basic front kick or two mixed in.

BJJ and other MMA centric arts were formulated on the presupposition of two UNARMED people facing each other in an equal contest. The traditional battlefield arts of Japan and China were NOT formulated on similar foundations. It was assumed always that at least ONE of the parties was armed.

Since Aikido is derived from these killing arts used on battlefields, and since very few of those ancient warriors were interested in trying shoot in and tackle armed opponents with their bare hands, it makes sense to me that this under-emphasis of dealing with that sort of attack has carried over to modern Aikido.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dan,

No problem with your facts for the most part. However, I would not say the aikido contributes "Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations".

That would depend on your perspective and the situation.

I'd say yes, if you have the luxury of time/distance and or knowledge or a certain degree of control of the situation.

I'd could argue that in other situations that the techniques dervied from the asssumptions and methodology of training by aikido are completely useless and irrelevant!

so, the right answer to the question asked is this...."it depends".

I don't think you can empricially say that "Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations'.

So does aikido work in a fight..."it depends".

[xuzen]

So does aikido work in a fight..."it depends".

OMG... Kevin, you sounded just like my sensei, when I asked him about this long time ago when I was still a kyu grade.

p/s Post count # 686, 314 more to go.... Keep em' coming boys and girls. This shall be aikiweb's first thread to reach the 1,000 post count mark! A round of applause to all who makes this possible.

[CNYMike]

..... What I do is conceptualize a particular scenario, then figure out a strategy for defeating that scenario, it may be something I learned in class, something I heard on the internet, or something I saw in a book.....then I go into the dojo and work on it with several people to see if it will work. I have one guy in particular that is a pain in the butt. If it works on him, then it will pretty much work on anyone. This same guy is not very cooperative and has a real hard time with aikido concepts! (thats another issue and why he doesn't improve in other areas of his training!)

All that said, scenario based training is good to do, however, it really does not fit well into many traditional aikido dojos from my experiences and can really defeat the dynamic you are trying to create in an aikido dojo to teach people aikido principles. That is why you probably don't see much of the grappling going on. it would be disruptive and not serve much function...in fact it would probably be counterproductive to a degree in many situations.


Probably, but as I believe I tried to say in the Kali v. Aikido thread, that doesn't bother me! Yes, my Aikido dojo does it "straight," but my purpose in going is to find out what they teach, not what I learn elsewhere. Also, I confess I just plain like doing Aikido as is; it feels good inside. If I could change anything, I wouldn't. I know some don't agree with that, but that' how I feel.

Having said that, scenario based training can be a pain if youo think about it. For example, let's say you are working on the response to a jab-cross. First, IMHO, you have to correctly understand the techniques involved. So either you have to know the boxing/kickboxing system or someone you train with has to. If you work from an incorrect understanding or misconception about the technique, whatever flows from that will, by definition, not work, and therefore be doomed to failure. This was driven home to me when I read a post that said kaiten nage/osae wouldn't work against a shoot. That would have been my first guess, too; if it doesn't work, then maybe there's an assumption that's flawed.

Second, to be in keeping with the structure of Aikido, you can't just have one counter to the technique but every counter! You name it -- irimi nage, shiho nage, kote gaeshi, ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo --- the whole ball of wax. That's the way it's set up, isn't? Some may work easier than others; shiho-nage against a doble-lef takedown, anybody? ('Course, now that I think about it, I wonder if you couldn't drop to one knee and do it sort of as a hanmi hantachi, putting yourself at or below the shooter's level .... oh, no .... :yuck: ) But I think to properly study that, that's what you have to do. At least I think so.

This strikes me as a heck of a lot of work, and I am just too lazy to even think about it. If someone else wants to do all that, great! Me, I'll just keep dancing with the elves.



.... I find aikido to be a very, very good practice in refining many of my martial skills. I wish I had much more time to spend on it than I do right now! However, based on what my goals are, aikido does not fill all my needs. again, it has nothing to do with if it works in a fight or not!

Congratulations on being organized! Me, I just sort of ended up here, doing what I want to do and training with whom I want to train with. Organized? Who, me? Never stand up in court. One look at my house will prove that! :o :)

Happy training!

[CNYMike]

p/s Post count # 686, 314 more to go.... Keep em' coming boys and girls. This shall be aikiweb's first thread to reach the 1,000 post count mark! A round of applause to all who makes this possible.

I worry about you sometimes, Xu, I really do. :)

[milhasan]

I emailed Mr. Ayoob a few hours ago and I got this reply:

"Aikido is great for threat management and self-defense.

1. Expressly geared to work for small people against large people.
2. Impact is dependent on too many variables; the leverage that is the core of Aikido is an immutable law.
3. A punch in the mouth looks vicious to the witnesses, and can easily cause $25,000 costs in maxillo-facial reconstruction before you get into "pain and suffering." An Aikido thumb-lock leaves no artifact unless you have to break the thumb, and it looks to the witnesses as if you're helping the poor drunk to get to the door without falling down.
4. A little research will show how heavily modern handgun retention training, disarming training, and police defensive tactics (unarmed control and arrest techniques) rely on core Aiki principles.

You damn betcha I believe in Aikido. No one art is everything, but Aikido contributes a disproportionately large share of what works in most real-world situations.

best,
Mas
massadayoob@aol.com"



I hope this doesn't open another dimension of argument here, I was just impressed he answered so quickly.


So, now it's finally settled: Aikido does work in a fight. Phew!!

:D

Way to go Dan!! I hope some more Aikidoka start to do the same type of research. Also we have overlooked the fact that it all depends on the person, not just the art itself. My background is in Kyokushin Karate( Sensei Richard Wollicki, Spring valley, N.Y), Tang-soo-do (Master J.C Shin & Master in-ku-yu, Philadelphia, Burlington N.J), Aikido ( Sensei Baker, Sensei Peter Easton Maitland, Fl). In every one those styles, I am speaking from my personal limited experience, Always came down to the person. When I started Tang-soo -do, I sparred with a 2nd degree black belt & completely overpowered him with Kyokushin style. But after a week or so, I sparred with a 1st degree female Black belt. She kept me off my feet by sweeping & leg blocking. Her kicks had no telegraphic notion at all. Basically she soundly beaten me. And of course during my training with Sensei Baker, one of his junior instructors could not take a hard rush but others would toy with me like I was a kinder gardener in the play ground. So it all came down to the person in every time. Again it is only my experience(limited).
In year 2000 I was Flight Instructing to build flight hours to move to a regional Airlines. During that period, I have met two Flight Instructors from a friendly country. Both of them were ex shadow warriors. When I became assistant chief pilot, they revealed the fact due to a background check. Per them, Shadow warriors empty hand assassination method had only very few strike, all of those technique are from Daito-Ryu. But these few moves are drilled in such a precision & speed, will take a observers breath away. They indicated that if you are lucky enough to be a Daito Ryu practitioner, Add some ground fighting, to get away or get your weapon out, Finlay Massad Ayoobs LF1( a must). That will prepare you for almost anything in the street.
Everything that I have written so far, strictly from my personal experience & encounters. Thanks

[Kevin Leavitt]

Good comments Michael. Yea you can adapt kaitenage to a sprawl at least in principle if nothing else. I have a sprawl that you end up essentially with katenage. I suppose you could to it in an aikido dojo to show various applications of the principles of aikido and to show variation and "thinking outside of the box."

Yea there just isn't enough hours in the day to practice everything we should practice! So we have to pick the things that we feel are most important. Sometimes we have the luxury of that, other times we may not depending on our time, work, dojo etc.

Mohammed, what is a "shadow warrior"?

if they are assasin of some sort, it would stand to reason that you'd have only a few effective techniques. Assasins relay heavily on the elements of steath and suprise. They quickly overwelm there opponents with lethal force. So they have a very narrow focus and become very good at those things.

[milhasan]

[QUOTE=Kevin

Mohammed, what is a "shadow warrior"?

if they are assasin of some sort, it would stand to reason that you'd have only a few effective techniques. Assasins relay heavily on the elements of steath and suprise. They quickly overwelm there opponents with lethal force. So they have a very narrow focus and become very good at those things.[/QUOTE]

Hi Kevin, Shadow warriors are a chosen few non-military field operatives with military background.(special force type) :) They are highly skilled in a lot of exotic weapons, language, tactics & various improvised methods needed for the particular region he/she operating. That includes flying few types of aircraft also. I was told to read a book called " The Brotherhood of the Rose". I was also told, In that book, training parts are mostly true. And after finishing the book I have to tell you, it was amazing.

[Dajo251]

So I dont know how this fits in but......there are two guys at my aikido school, both great aikidokas and good guys, one is a former BJJ guy and one is into MMA, and is going into his second matche ever next thursday, talking to them, radndomly tonight after class we got on the subject of aikido and how it would be pretty ineffective in an MMA match and they completly agreed on that, but that with a fight on the street aikido would be very effecting, or at least the priniciples of aikido. Ok Im done....

[dps]

I used Aikido once when a guy tried to put me in a headlock and punch me in the face. It worked for me, I'm convinced.

[Kevin Leavitt]

how do you know it wasn't BJJ? :)

[philippe willaume]

Hello

Practicing medieval wrestling (on foot on horse with and without Armour) and aikido, I am under the impression that there is lots of similarity between the two, technique wise that is.
It is quite clear that pin him down so that you can do whatever you want to him with you other hand (including stabbing him to satiety). Or in case of emergency/needs, break his arm/leg or strike him where it really hurts, may not be especially aikido minded.
As well, I need to point out that medieval wrestling was to be used in the context of judicial dual, where the loser, if not killed outright, was to suffer a particularly nasty demise.
Non-the-less, we can agree with my understanding that judicial dual participants were relatively motivated to win and used technique that they deemed efficient.
Since, I am of the opinion that aikido share the same technical merits, I would say the degree of use of those techniques is really a personal choice but that the potential is there.

Just a single example, the 3rd bone breaker is very uncannily alike irimi omote shihonague as per the book (either medieval manuscript or an aikido book for that matter).

For those who thinks that the person at the receiving end of the technique goes with the flow; i would say, yes we usually do.

From where I am standing I kind of appreciate the idea that I am being thrown or pinned instead of broken by shiho nague, but that is just me.

Call me "Suzane the big girl blouse" but I do not tend to linger when nikkio is applied and I tend to do my best impression a carpet flying down, especially since I know what’s coming and that i usually find it ever so slightly on the painfull side.

Suzane

[Man of Aiki]

There is a simple, and quite effective technique that an Aikidoka or Daito-Ryu practitioner can use to thwart an opponent going low trying to wrap them up around the knees and take them down.

I found this out during a randori where person training with us who had a Judo background and he decided to take me down that way.

It was so simple I couldn't believe it. I did it instinctively too, without any conscious thought.

As he came in low, his head down, arms wide and just as he was about to make contact with my thighs I pretended I had a sword in my hand, dropped my center and moved forward as if striking an opponent 3 feet away.

You do not pick your feet up when you attack with a sword. You glide, your feet never leaving the surface.

I did not step straight forward, either, but at a 45 degree angle, right into him.

The result was, he was totally unprepared for me to MOVE RIGHT INTO HIM as he was just about to wrap me up. He was still going forward and all of a sudden the space between his neck and shoulder met my thigh and my thigh was moving at an angle and my entire bodyweight was behind it.

We are taught to put our entire body into the sword strike, so that's what I did. He weighed around 195 but I weighted around 245. He's bent over and coming forward. I'm perfectly straight and centered.

Guess what happened?

It was like he was pulled backwards with one of those stunt wires they use when they pretend someone has been shot by a high-powered weapon in the movies. He flew backwards, hit the mat with his rear and then rolled completely over and sprawled out.

I didn't know a whole lot back then, but I figured I was onto something there. A few years later I saw a video of Gozo Shioda doing a demonstration and he was doing that sort of thing almost constantly; several times as attackers came at him he would suddenly swivel and hit them with his BACK and send them flying. Just when they were about to make contact he would move forward with his whole body and their own attacking energy would be thrown back at them.

That has to be the simplest and most direct way to thrward a BJJ style shoot that anyone can do. Simply move into the other person when they are about to wrap you up, and move into them STRONGLY with a low center and use your entire body.

[Keith R Lee]

There is a simple, and quite effective technique that an Aikidoka or Daito-Ryu practitioner can use to thwart an opponent going low trying to wrap them up around the knees and take them down.

I found this out during a randori where person training with us who had a Judo background and he decided to take me down that way.

It was so simple I couldn't believe it. I did it instinctively too, without any conscious thought.

As he came in low, his head down, arms wide and just as he was about to make contact with my thighs I pretended I had a sword in my hand, dropped my center and moved forward as if striking an opponent 3 feet away.

You do not pick your feet up when you attack with a sword. You glide, your feet never leaving the surface.

I did not step straight forward, either, but at a 45 degree angle, right into him.

The result was, he was totally unprepared for me to MOVE RIGHT INTO HIM as he was just about to wrap me up. He was still going forward and all of a sudden the space between his neck and shoulder met my thigh and my thigh was moving at an angle and my entire bodyweight was behind it.

We are taught to put our entire body into the sword strike, so that's what I did. He weighed around 195 but I weighted around 245. He's bent over and coming forward. I'm perfectly straight and centered.

Guess what happened?

It was like he was pulled backwards with one of those stunt wires they use when they pretend someone has been shot by a high-powered weapon in the movies. He flew backwards, hit the mat with his rear and then rolled completely over and sprawled out.

I didn't know a whole lot back then, but I figured I was onto something there. A few years later I saw a video of Gozo Shioda doing a demonstration and he was doing that sort of thing almost constantly; several times as attackers came at him he would suddenly swivel and hit them with his BACK and send them flying. Just when they were about to make contact he would move forward with his whole body and their own attacking energy would be thrown back at them.

That has to be the simplest and most direct way to thrward a BJJ style shoot that anyone can do. Simply move into the other person when they are about to wrap you up, and move into them STRONGLY with a low center and use your entire body.

And yet...somehow...in the thousands of years that greco style and free style wrestling have been practiced...no one has come up with this answer and have been busy doing other things? In the past two decades of MMA, in the past 40+ years of BJJ and Sambo, people with countless hours of full contact, full resistance sparring have not come up with this answer either? The whole time this answer has been in Japanese sword fighting systems!!!

If I wanted to know about wrist locks, I'd go to an Aikido dojo. If I want to learn about double legs, I'll go to a wrestling gym.

First, judo does not focus that much on full-body, leg-wrap take downs. Judo players just aren't that good at them, although they are fantastic at many other things. So I wouldn't put that much stock into being able to defending his take down. Not to mention, a "judo background." That could be anything from 8th kyu to 1st dan. Also, it's randori, in which people tend to not exactly give it their all when attacks are made. And lastly, you're surprised that you could stop him when you had a 50 pound weight advantage??? Yeah...if a 130 pound guy came in and gave me a crappy shoot I could stop it by leaning into him as well, no problem.

The only high percentage moves in reaction to low-level take downs are (in order): sprawls, whizzers, and kneeing someone in the face. Anything else might work one time, but will definitely not work reliably over a long time against a variety of opponents. Just in the 20th century, people have spent their entire lives in wrestling and studying how to execute low level take downs and how to counter them. I assure you, anything else is fantasy against someone who has good low-level take downs.

The answer is out there, it's just not in Aikido. Don't try and re-invent the wheel when it's not necessary. If you want to learn how to defend low-level take downs go to (in this order) a wrestling, Sambo, or BJJ gym. However, it really isn't necessary for Aikido practice, so unless you're just interested in expanding your martial repertoire, I'd say just practice Aikido and don't worry about those types of attacks.

[Man of Aiki]

I fail to understand how you think I was talking about thousands of years of greco-roman and free style wrestling.

I was clearly discussing how stepping right up forcefully into a lowshooting bent-over and on-rushing opponent turns their own energy back on them and thwarts the takedown attempt.

It's an effective tactic and it works.

Sorry you don't think so.

[Man of Aiki]

Keith, as an example of what I am talking about, I would refer you to this YouTube presentation in which Sensei Gozo Shioda, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido, is giving a demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=Shioda&v=1sCevYMrZtY

Shioda liked to illustrate the principle I am talking about by having his uke rush toward him fast and try to shove him hard in the chest. Just at the moment the uke's hands are about to make contact with his chest, Sensei Shido moves his entire being forward less than one inch, almost imperceptibly. The results are quite marked.

The attacker is covering distance, has momentum; Shioda Sensei seems to hardly move. Yet what is the result? The uke is thrown violently to the floor.

I simply did this to an opponent who was bent over, head down, trying to wrap up my knees.

If done with proper timing, *(Heck, EVERY AIKIDO TECH. HAS TO BE DONE WITH PROPER TIMING) the results speak for themselves.

Get the timing wrong, go to early, go too late, don't go strong enough, etc. of course it won't work.

But I've gotten that one right several times, so it's just not a nice theory that I have.

[Chris Birke]

You can stop a midlevel shoot with a hip thrust, it's just not as reliable as a sprawl. It's the first thing that happens in this video, and its similar in theory to what you're talking about (Brian). You can see that it works, and also why "knowing the counter" has very little to do with what it takes to execute it in context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOS2udBN9R4&search=genki%20sudo

Genki rules.

[Man of Aiki]

Wow, that was some good MMA going on there. Thanks for posting that.

Sudo has that sudden jump thing where goes up and gets his legs around their neck down pretty good. Hard to get out of the triangle choke when he gets himself seated like that so suddenly and unexpectedly.

[kaishaku]

The only high percentage moves in reaction to low-level take downs are (in order): sprawls, whizzers, and kneeing someone in the face.

What's a whizzer? I didn't really find anything useful during a brief googling.

I think some Aikido practitioners imagine someone running at them, bent over, from across the room. In BJJ we are taught to never change level until we're already within reaching distance. If someone tried to irimi into me while I'm going for the legs, I'd just change to a single leg takedown instead....

[kaishaku]

Oh, also, what's a switch? It's hard to search for wrestling techniques since they have names that mean other things....

[Kevin Leavitt]

Good Comments Keith Lee. I couldn't agree more.

Anyway...Brian: What comes to my mind, (and it is hard to banter over this online for sure!), is that you are assuming that the guy attacking has not done several key things in his shoot and that is: moved off line and lined your feet up, and taking your center on the shoot.

A good shooter does these two things...he is very fast with his hips, set up correctly, faster than your ability to react with anything other than a sprawl which is why Chris Burke brings up his comments!

I think the three of us would caution you against saying "it works" if you are trying it out on someone that is not experienced at shooting double and single leg takedowns. Yea what you describe works perfectly on someone simply shooting without regard to all the other factors involved!

It really is not as simple as an afternoon discovery of aikido bunkai! I have been learning to do single and double leg takedowns for about a year now and I am now getting them! It is a very skilled thing to do correctly.

I love watching Royce Gracie shoot. I recommend getting some footage and go in slow motion and watch how he steps off line, goes high to take center, then moves through with his hips, securing a leg or both legs, then he steps off line circling (irimi/tenkan) as he off balances and executes the takedown!

Good luck in your training!

[Man of Aiki]

I am not doubting the fact that BJJ and wrestling students are very competent at shooting in.

All your comments boil down to "Aikidoka really have no defense whatsoever against this" and "BJJ and Wrestling students are very good at shooting in."

I am not questioning your second premise, but your first one. Some Aikidoka have given the low shoot some serious thought and have put some training into countering it.

I myself have posted on this board as to why many traditional Aikido schools do not have much in their cirricula about countering low shoots, so I'm well aware of the problem.

[Raspado]

And what would you do to prevent this Brian, what's your plan?

[milhasan]

This thread started about Aikido. If Aikido works at all in a Fight?? or correct choice of word could've been self defense? Not Aikido vs. Bjj.

Like I said in my previous post, Bjj trolling on every Martial arts forums. Whenever any effectiveness of a particular arts or style being discussed, there are always few Bjj practitioners will intervene & bash everything. To prove the superiority of the Bjj style. They will refuse to believe that it is not the art, it is the person. In this forum Aikido's effectiveness is a disguise to really eloquently talk about how Bjjer's can defeat Aikidoka.They are under assumption that we will be unarmed & facing a unarmed Bjjer in the street. Never heard or seen or read any street fights between Bjj & any other arts at least here in Orlando. This thread was to dissecting Aikido, not about Bjj.
I lurk in three other forums & member of one. In all of these, forum moderators having to shut down thread like this.
We have seen Bruce Lee craze, Ninja craze, now Bjj. Let's see what next. most likely a weapons based art?
There are disagreement between self defense experts about Martial art & self defense are being in two different arena. Every article or interview by these experts that I've came across agrees on one item. It is a very Bad idea to go on the ground & stay during a street confrontation, willingly/ voluntarily. No matter how graceful & beautiful Gracie's look in the ring( not with Sakuraba though), no way they are going to roll around on the ground in the street if they had a choice.
BTW, only art have been spared from bashing was Sayok Kali. I guess it's obviously a fatal mistake to try to grab a kali person unless one wants to be cut from rectum to the groin in a artistic manner.( A Kali girl did that for real to defend against a choke hold).

To the Bjjers..Fighting in the UFC & going to Bjj class 3 times a week is very different thing. A UFC fighter makes a living by competing. They practice 4 to 6 hrs daily if not more. I know how to drive a car & driving for years. If I decide to race with a family van against Jeff Gordon in a family van also. You know the result will be. In the same token, If Jeff Gordon have a private pilot license & occasionally flies, put him in a control of a heavy aircraft in the middle of the cloud he will have the similar result while I'll have a good laugh. UFC guys don't fight on the street. Even they are afraid of litigation.
My point is... It's not the same on the mat as on the street. Argue all you want, Aikido has proven. Bjj have not proven on the street yet. I am all for Cross training in ground fighting & being open to any other methods. While I respect your passion & zeal towards your Bjj art, I also suggest that you do the same for others. Again I am not practicing Aikido so I have to face someone waiting outside the dojo to fight me. For that I use my secret weapon called "a sharp mind".
The biggest opponent of Martial art training was always the Litigation. It is just the matter of time Bjj will be facing this same enemy just as other TMA(traditional martial arts). It is the sole reason for watered down TMA now. It's something to think about.

[Bart Mason]

And what would you do to prevent this Brian, what's your plan?

I don't know what Brian can do, but I can run and run fast. I also scream like a little girl :D

now if we could just bottle up all this testosterone, then combine it with the energy of my 8 year old, i'd make millions!!!!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Mohammed,

I don't believe anyone is trolling here. I hope you don't think I am. I went back and reviewed my past several post to see if what I may be saying could even be construed that way. I don't think so. Also haven't really seen any indication that anyone else is either.

What I have seen is some people that are both qualfied in Aikido and "other arts" such as BJJ, MMA, greco-roman and the like counter with constructive input. It may not be what you want to hear as an aikidoka, but I think, respectfully that "we" also want our fellow aikidoka to "keep it real" and to "keep it in perspective".

No one has said that BJJ is superior. That is your own inference IMHO.

Yes the thread is about the effectiveness at aikido. Many try to project it as aikido can be effective in every type of situation...or applying aikido techniques to every situation as being the end all of everything. It is okay to counter that, or offer a different perspective based on experience.

Trolling is when you fish for emotions and make statements without constructive feedback and without qualifiying statements.

Is it a "very bad idea to go to the ground for any reason?" I don't know... I could demonstrate some scenarios where it is good to go to the ground. You can also argue that you may not have a choice. You even say "if they had a choice". so by that I assume you subscribe to the fact that it is indeed possible that you may not have a choice.

I am not here to argue the "go to the ground or not" issue. It is pointless. I think you and I both agree on that! Do you agree that you should have "ground skills" as a martial artist? or at least they have merit? Can we just leave it at that?

Most "real" BJJers, even the guys that train 3 days a week keenly understand the difference between UFC fighting and BJJ class. More so than non-BJJers to be honest. Why? because many of our senior instructors have been in the ring. I train with three professional NHB/UFC instructors...they make me look silly. and the guys they lost to in the UFC totally owned them! So yea...I am very aware of my limitations and where I stand in the food chain. It is a humbling experience to go through.

I honestly, honestly thought several years ago that aikido would do things for me that it really won't. It wasn't until I was involved in MMA and "real life" combatives training and situations in the Army that I said "woooahh, hang on a minute...why am I doing this?"

These are my experiences! MINE, MINE, MINE. Don't use them to say how I judge aikido, or project that aikido is effective or irrelevant. I repeat, these are MY experiences. I share them because it helps me, and maybe others....you can take them or leave them!

What it did for me is make me think about my life, martial arts, aikido, and why I am doing what I am doing. I have more respect for aikido as a DO art. I have a greater appreciation I believe on why we practice aikido. Why it is imperitive that we do aikido...and do it for the right reasons. I feel it is important to share my experiences in the hope that it may help others think. That is all.

BJJ is not proven on the streets? you'd have to better qualify what you mean by that.

It is proven on the streets from the perspective of the Gracies. Ever seen "Gracies in Action". How about Rorians $100,000 challenge? The U.S. Army proves it "on the street" every day in Iraq and Afganistan. Since about 2001, we do not hide the fact that BJJ is the basis of our program.

This is an old article, but one that I like to share with my Combatives classes on why we do what we do in combatives....that is ground fight. It should also offer proof that BJJ is proven on the streets.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HZY/is_2_16/ai_113304592

"It's not the same on the mat as on the street." I agree it is not the same. This applies equally to aikido as it does to any martial art. In fact in my BJJ classes every single day I remind my class of this. Are you infering that aikido is MORE like the street?

I don't really have an any more affinity, passion or zeal for BJJ than I do for Aikido. I simply like to train, enjoy it, and love to share it with others. What I do have a passion and zeal for is "keeping it real" and trying to alway remind myself that there is always another way of doing things and not to get complacent, comfortable, or hide behind the rituals of practice etc.

a sharp mind is a good thing to have. Probably the most important. Hopefully as a part of that, it is also having an open mind!

Have you ever trained in BJJ or been to a well run established dojo? It was a suprise to find that they are among the most open mined, non-parochial, respectful people I have ever encountered. I wasted years of my life avoiding it because of what I precieved they were all about. I was wrong and I lost out!

Litigation. you are wrong about that. What are your perceptions of what goes on in a BJJ dojo? You think it is any more "at risk" than aikido? I think there are much greater risk in an aikido dojo..especially when it come to beginners! Beginners getting hurt is the biggest litigation risk you face! Many aikido dojos have these guys taking breakfalls, rolling, ukemi, and all that good stuff. BJJ starts out teaching them the guard and the mount. The guard done properly is essentially kokyu tanden ho! so you spend 2 hours doing nothing more harmful than kokyu tanden ho!

okay, guys...I applogize for taking the thread off course a little more. I won't say anymore about BJJ directly, and go back to responding appropriately about aikido and fighting.

I think what I can do to bring it back on track is say this:

All this above is to demonstrate simply that we really need to learn the lessons being taught in aikido which is the "WAY" or the "DO". No question that aikido techniques work in fights sometimes. However, it is also important to understand that we need to consider there is more ways to handle things than our limited perspective. It is also important to not form assumptions about people and their intentions or to project our own emotions or feelings into the equations.

When we seek to understand, we grow in knowledge of our opponent. In doing this we see other options and opportunities that may be available. We can then more skillfully develop or resolve a fight. This is aikido working in a fight!

Sorry for the long post!

[Raspado]

Way To Go Kevin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[milhasan]

Hi Kevin, you are too nice. Thank you for keeping it polite. I am going to respond to your post. But in order to keep it short with facts , I am collecting various data. I was in the military also. I wanted to make sure that I don't compromise some operational details before I start to post the facts. Talk to you later

[Kevin Leavitt]

organized like a team, fight like a family :)

Okay, that wasn't necesary, but I couldn't resist!

[Richard Langridge]

Nice post Kevin, thanks!

[Raspado]

hahahahhaha! Believe it or not--it's very true. Gracie Barra under Carlos Gracie Jr. is like that.

[Man of Aiki]

Actually the screaming and running thing was my second option!

Seriously though, Kevin and others are right to point out that traditional Aikido as it is often taught in classical fashion does not have much in the way of countering low tackles. I made a rather long post a few days ago to reiterate why this is so.

To briefly recap - the battlefield killing arts that O-Sensei modified into Aikido (primarily Daito Ryu Aikijutsu) was based on two sets of circumstances - weapons retention if someone tried to take your sword, spear or staff from you, and empty-hand vs. weapons techniques in case a warrior was rendered weaponless and faced an armed foe.

It was discovered through years of trial and error (and, no doubt, considerable loss of life) that when the opponent is armed and you are not, the best option that gave you a shot at survival was one that entailed STANDING THERE AN LETTING HIM START HIS ATTACK.

Let him close the distance and actually begin what he expects to be a fatal strike, and then avoid/deflect the attack, move in, unbalance him, throw and/or pin him, and take his weapon.

That is the best shot an unarmed warrior has at surviving an attack by a foe coming at him with a knife, sword, or spear.

Let him initiate the action and make the opening by launching his strike, extending his weapon and in the process, his balance.

Now that we clearly see this, we can begin to understand why the people that formed Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu would not have had much interest in forming techniques that involved having the unarmed warrior close the distance and shoot low against a foe that has a weapon, such as a spear or a sword.

To do so on a Japanese battlefield would be tantamount to a suicidal attack. As the average Japanese samurai was trained in the use of the sword from the time he was a small boy, by the time he was an adult male he would have little difficulty cutting down an unarmed opponent charging him empty-handed.

This is why the entire founding aspect of the Aiki arts was based on letting the armed opponent close the distance and letting him strike first.

OK, so that wasn't a brief recap. Boo hoo!

Many high-level Aikidoka since the passing of O-Sensei have realized over time that defense against low attacks is the one area Aikido is seriously lacking in.

Some of them, like Gozo Shioda, before his death, had to formulate his own techniques to counter such attacks.

Other Aikido Senseis have done the same, and here's where we get into a controversy.

Some people think that if O-Sensei himself didn't teach a technique a certain way, if he can't be found on film doing a counter against a low tackle, then such a new technique can't really be called Aikido since Aikido stopped growing and changing when O-Sensei died.

Now that sounds crass but that explains exactly why when someone puts out a video showing, for instance, Aikido techniques used for gun disarms, there are traditionalists that say "That's not Aikido! At no time did O-Sensei ever take a gun away from someone or teach anyone how to!"

Same thing with the low shoot counters that some Aikido Senseis teach. People go "Show me where O-Sensei did that! You can't, can you? Then that's NOT Aikido!"

Aikido is not static and written in stone and it did not stop growing and developing when O-Sensei died.

When the MMA sport began gaining prominence, many Aikido Senseis gained an insight that their art needed to grow in the area of countering low attacks, and some have been diligently experimenting and applying Aikido principles in order develop techniques that will do that.

Seagal Sensei is one of those. I attended a Seminar by one of his chief sempai, Sensei Larry Reynosa, 5th Dan, in which the second day of a 2 day seminar almost an hour and a half was devoted to countering low attacks.

Now it's true that there are plenty of traditional Aikido schools out there (and some questionable schools as well) that have made no effort in this area at all. They are still doing what was done 40 years ago.

If that's how they want to teach the art, fine. There are plenty of places out there and I'm sure you fellows have seen this, where uke's will fall for people without being touched, and everyone is play-acting.

But if you've seen one of those, don't assume that's all there is or that all Aikido out there is like that. It isn't.

Brian

[Man of Aiki]

BTW, forgot to add one great quote from Reynosa Sensei when someone asked him during this seminar what if someone shoots in and you start to feel yourself losing your balance?

Sensei Reynosa said, Drop down so you land on your knees. Why do you think we do all that training from the kneeling position anyway? Just because it's fun?

And so we spent the next 30 minutes working on kneeling techniques.

He drilled into us there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to your knees in a fight since most Aikidoka should spend about half of their training down there anyway.

[Keith R Lee]

Awesome post Kevin. Excellent summary of the situation that I think many Aikidoka who also crosstrain in grappling/MMA/full-contact, full-resistence sparring find themselves in when discussing Aikido. Kudos.

[CNYMike]

.... They are under assumption that we will be unarmed & facing a unarmed Bjjer in the street. Never heard or seen or read any street fights between Bjj & any other arts at least here in Orlando .....

My Kali instructor --- who's no stranger to grappling -- likes to say, "Grapplers make it sound like everyone and their uncle does BJJ, but I have yet to bump into someone at random on the street who can do it." It's actually a comment on how rare martial artists are in our culture, but it backs you up to.

Other than that, life will go on if this thread dies. [HINT]

[CNYMike]

Hi, Kevin,

Nice post. Now if I can get my computer to behave this time, just a few points:

.... Many try to project it as aikido can be effective in every type of situation...or applying aikido techniques to every situation as being the end all of everything ..... I honestly, honestly thought several years ago that aikido would do things for me that it really won't. It wasn't until I was involved in MMA and "real life" combatives training and situations in the Army that I said "woooahh, hang on a minute...why am I doing this?"

There seem to be the two extremes of thought: The Aikido Handles Everything idea you outlined, and the opposite extreme, that it's great to do but useless in the real world. With you choices being A or not A, it doesn't clear things up much.

I figure reality is somewhere in the middle, but I don't know where yet. But it seems logical to me that Aikido has a space in the middle ground between those two ideas, just as Aikido techniques have a niche in the ranges of empty hadn combat. Trying to figure out where those niches are is another matter, something I keep in the back of my mind. But it's how I look at things.


.... Have you ever trained in BJJ or been to a well run established dojo? It was a suprise to find that they are among the most open mined, non-parochial, respectful people I have ever encountered. I wasted years of my life avoiding it because of what I precieved they were all about. I was wrong and I lost out!


That's good to know. I haven't met many BJJ people personally, but my fellows in Kali, who also do Jun Fan/JKD, fit the same mold. I've written how my Kali instructor (who also holds and instructorship in Jun Fan and has permission to teach Pentjak Silat Serak) all but dragged me to my first Aikido class by my ankles when I told him I wanted to get back into it. One of my seniors, who's also a Jun Fan man and who's done martial arts about as long as I'm alive, not only thought it was great I'm doing Aikido but met Yamada Sensei back in the '60s. Aikido seems to be the art some of them would like to do but don't have the time for, but they never gave me an attitude over my doing TMA, and that goes back to when I went to Sifu Kevin Seaman's old school and used the open training time in the afternoon to practice karate kata! In a den of "kata haters," and the most I heard from Sifu Kevin was when he once said, "Mr. Gallaghre does his forms every day," holding me up as an example of the need to practice outside class!

It's because of their example that my blood boils when I read of a supposed JKD person giving an Aikidoist grief; not the one I know! But there are some real boors out there, and yeah, they are in the BJJ world and yeah, they mouth off everyhting else. If you've been around the 'net you know there are one or two instuctors who fit that bill. But good for you if you've avoided training under them.

..... Litigation. you are wrong about that ....

I thought he was referring to the legal restrictions on the use of force when defending yourself, but I could be wrong about that.

Sorry for the long post!
That's ok; I didn't really read it. :D (Boy, am I gonna get it!)

[Kevin Leavitt]

Good comments Michael.

Brian wrote:

It was discovered through years of trial and error (and, no doubt, considerable loss of life) that when the opponent is armed and you are not, the best option that gave you a shot at survival was one that entailed STANDING THERE AN LETTING HIM START HIS ATTACK.


Brian, just want to clarify what you mean by "standing there". if you mean it literally, I would disagree. I have no way of knowing what the Japanese fedual dudes actually did, but just standing there defys what I read in Five Rings and the Art of War (even though that is Chinese!). Also all the sword, and jo kata I studied also is contray to this.

I think you might be thinking 'regroup" and establish a kamae and defense. That might not be a bad idea. But, on the battlefield it is typically better to press forward, to take up space and to seize the iniative.

We teach this all day long in CQB training. You always move forward into the battle, never give your enemy space to manuever and choose his attack.

I also think we do this in aikido. A good kamae is not simply standing there. You are employing Ma'ai, timing and distance...controlling the space and forcing uke to adapt and commit to somethng that is of disadvantage to him.

It is probably semantics, but "standing there" suggest that you are not seizing control of the situation to me.

If I were to get knocked off my horse and faced an opponent empty handed i'd move fast toward him, closing the distance forcing him backward to regroup...take away his time and ability to control distance then choose my attack.

When you go to aikido class talk to your instructors about this concept and see what they have to say. Pay attention to what you are actually doing when uke attacks. Watch what a good instructor does. If he is doing it right, he is not simply standing, but actively engaged at controlling the distance, anticipating and moving before the attack!

If it is semantics, just clarify for me. If not, I'd ask you to look closer to see if you still see the same thing.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Brian wrote:


When the MMA sport began gaining prominence, many Aikido Senseis gained an insight that their art needed to grow in the area of countering low attacks, and some have been diligently experimenting and applying Aikido principles in order develop techniques that will do that.

some might have done this. I'd say most did not. Traditional aikido typcially would not be concerned so much with this because the techniques and methodology employed for the last 40 years does a good job of conveying the principles.

Those that would focus on the practical applications or "tactical aikido" would most certainly explore these things and adopt them. It is a personal opinion, but based on my background on aikido i'd say this is more MMA than aikido though.

Those guys like Reynosa Sensei, and Segal sensei probably use low shoots, ground work more as a way to break paradigms, demonstrate the breadth of how aikii principles can be applied, and to offer a different perspective than anything else.

All this brings up a very good point. there are two sides to martial arts I think. I hate to use the word internal and external because that is not really it. the DO and the SU. The DO is concerned with the "something ele" and SU is concerned with practical applications. It is important for students to understand these two concepts and to understand what is being conveyed in their training by the art and the instructor.

It can get confusing mixing the two sometimes especially when studying a heavy DO based art like aikido. Cognitive dissonance occurs and we project all kinds of things on the art that WE want it to be or start believing that what we are practing literally has practical application! When things get dangerous is when we really start to believe that we are something that we are not!

Why you see the conflict between BJJ and Aikido is that they are opposite approaches almost to the same system of study! DO and SU. It is exactly why they compliment each other to!

BJJ guys fail to understand the DO arts, and aikido guys fail to understand the SU arts! It really is as simple as that!

[milhasan]

I am back from my trip.
Kevin, Did you see your name in my post? This thread started in year 2000 as a troll thread. did you post that ? I don't think so. It appears to me that my post hit a nerve.
you wrote
It may not be what you want to hear as an aikidoka, but I think, respectfully that "we" also want our fellow aikidoka to "keep it real" and to "keep it in perspective". Since you used the word respectfully, I will ask you this also respectfully, what makes you think That we aikidoka not keeping it real? I only visited few Aikido dojos. All of this dojos are doing very best to keep it real. We are discussing only Aikido here, so, I am not even going to mention that what other TMA dojos doing to bring the training scenario as real as can be.
No one has said that BJJ is superior. That is your own inference IMHO.
Really? Why Then a Aikidoka post his success or failure, you tend to steer the topic towards Bjj? Example : David skaggs posted, I used Aikido once when a guy tried to put me in a headlock and punch me in the face. It worked for me, I'm convinced. Your response to this post is, how do you know it wasn't BJJ?
Yes the thread is about the effectiveness at aikido.
Many try to project it as aikido can be effective in every type of situation...or applying aikido techniques to every situation as being the end all of everything. It is okay to counter that, or offer a different perspective based on experience.
Trolling is when you fish for emotions and make statements without constructive feedback and without qualifiying statements.
I agree with you on this.
Is it a "very bad idea to go to the ground for any reason?" I don't know... I could demonstrate some scenarios where it is good to go to the ground. You can also argue that you may not have a choice. You even say "if they had a choice". so by that I assume you subscribe to the fact that it is indeed possible that you may not have a choice
If you read my post one more time, you will see what you missed is that is not my personal opinion. It is the most common opinion most of the self defense experts shares.
I am not here to argue the "go to the ground or not" issue. It is pointless. I think you and I both agree on that! Do you agree that you should have "ground skills" as a martial artist? or at least they have merit? Can we just leave it at that?
100% agreed.
I honestly, honestly thought several years ago that aikido would do things for me that it really won't. It wasn't until I was involved in MMA and "real life" combatives training and situations in the Army that I said "woooahh, hang on a minute...why am I doing this?"
Good for you.
These are my experiences! MINE, MINE, MINE. Don't use them to say how I judge aikido, or project that aikido is effective or irrelevant. I repeat, these are MY experiences. I share them because it helps me, and maybe others....you can take them or leave them!
That's right it's only YOURS, YOURS, YOURS. No I'm not taking them. It's not going to help me here in suburbs.
Why it is imperitive that we do aikido...and do it for the right reasons. I feel it is important to share my experiences in the hope that it may help others think. That is all.
It's great that you are sharing your experiences. But why are you assuming all other's need your help to think for themselves? Each one us is different. We have different expectations, different goal.

BJJ is not proven on the streets? you'd have to better qualify what you mean by that.
It is proven on the streets from the perspective of the Gracies. Ever seen "Gracies in Action". How about Rorians $100,000 challenge? The U.S. Army proves it "on the street" every day in Iraq and Afganistan. Since about 2001, we do not hide the fact that BJJ is the basis of our program.
Let me rephrase that, Bjj have not proven on the street yet? I missed the "Yet" earlier. Fact is the age of Bjj. Unless few after school fights or parking lot of a movie theater in the weekends by the students. Yes I have seen Gracie's. More then once. What was the street prespective? Kimo lost by an armbar in the ring. Are you honestly thinking if the same match took place in the street without any rules, the result would be the same? Now I am not even going to talk about Kazushi Sakuraba in the ring with Gracie's. That's another thread itself.
As you mentioned the streets of Iraq & Afghanistan, both of this places are battlegrounds. Not the streets are being discussed here. My two In-laws were in Iraq. By asking them about Bjj on the street of Iraq all I got was a good laugh from one & Abu Garib joke from another. unless M-16, arresting, escorting prisoners are all part of the Bjj. The U.S. Army proves it "on the street" every day in Iraq. Are you sure? Hear is a link for the only hand to hand combat ever recorded in Iraq which involves knife( Kali guys & girls, must read).
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040503-115511-7092r.htm
I am still waiting for a response from a friend somewhere in Afganistan or Pakistan about Bjj is being used daily.

What I do have a passion and zeal for is "keeping it real" and trying to alway remind myself that there is always another way of doing things and not to get complacent, comfortable, or hide behind the rituals of practice etc.
a sharp mind is a good thing to have. Probably the most important. Hopefully as a part of that, it is also having an open mind!
Have you ever trained in BJJ or been to a well run established dojo? It was a suprise to find that they are among the most open mined, non-parochial, respectful people I have ever encountered. I wasted years of my life avoiding it because of what I precieved they were all about. I was wrong and I lost out!
So Aikido student's don't remind themselves these obvious facts daily? What you think is the Aikido's greatest gift that only mentioned by very few? That's the gift is the most important reason for the students of all walks of life, including high ranking TMA instructor's, Corporate security, doorman, Leo's, Corporate executives, physicians, Reformed street fighter, airline pilot, school teachers, musician, housewives, gardeners, pizza delivery guys/gals, artist joins Aikido dojo or clubs.
That is "Situational Awareness with utter clarity of mind". I am sure you are well versed in that area.
Now this is how close minded I am, I am putting my 8 yrs. old in a Bjj club starting this summer. Gjj is $30 to $40 more per month. My intention to keep my child there at least five years. Then to Daito Ryu or Aikido for the life if we're lucky. Also, I was a Kyokushin & later Tang-soo-do practitioner, until I saw a friend from U.K did some aikido stuff in the street of Karachi, Pakistan. After some friendly sparring & discussion with him, I have become a supporter of Aikido. Now, have you ever trained in a well established Aikido dojo lately? They are open minded also.
Litigation. you are wrong about that. What are your perceptions of
No I am not wrong on this. You are. Wait until you try to open your own dojo here in U.S. You will have a rude awakening. Not just training injury I am talking about. You'll most likely have to sell students dojo insurance now to be protected. even then rate of claims can be detrimental to your ability to be insured in future. if one of your student was protecting himself outside of the dojo, other party can file a suit against your dojo to be compensated for a lot. Your students waiver will not hold up in the court . In the end even if you win, you still have to take time out to go to the court house, find a parking, wait for your attorney to be fashionably late, then to be told hearing postponed & will be rescheduled. You would wish then pull your toe nail out with pliers then go through this process.
[I]All this above is to demonstrate simply that we really need to learn the lessons being taught in aikido which is the "WAY" or the "DO". No question that aikido techniques work in fights sometimes.
Aikido works not only sometimes, it works a lot of times. I can fill 25 pages full of reports by the bouncers to Leo's, students & others.

However, it is also important to understand that we need to consider there is more ways to handle things than our limited perspective. It is also important to not form assumptions about people and their intentions or to project our own emotions or feelings into the equations.
Self explanatory.
When we seek to understand, we grow in knowledge of our opponent. In doing this we see other options and opportunities that may be available. We can then more skillfully develop or resolve a fight. This is aikido working in a fight!
Finally we all can agree on something.
To all the Aikidoka... We all know why we keep going back to our dojos. Let's not beat the dead horse anymore about Aikido vs. other arts. That's not this thread all about to begin with. A lot of reality based training only brings close to a false sense of security.
The fashion of the street now is carrying a GLOCK 19. At least here.
Respectfully bowing out...

[Man of Aiki]

Kevin;

Good post, I would like to clarify, as you suggested.

There are many ways a warrior could lose his primary weapon. It could, for instance, get stuck inside an opponent. It could be broken.

If there is time, I am sure the warrior would look about for another weapon.

In the instance where Aikijutsu was used, however, it was assumed the enemy was too close to retreat and there was not time to seek another weapon to fight with.

If by 'close the distance' you mean moving towards him and looking like you are inviting him to strike you down, I agree with what you are saying.

This statement, however, troubles me:

"If I were to get knocked off my horse and faced an opponent empty handed i'd move fast toward him, closing the distance forcing him backward to regroup...take away his time and ability to control distance then choose my attack."

There is absolutely no reason I can think of why an adult Japanese samurai, trained in the use of sword and spear since a young age, would be 'forc(ed) backward to regroup' by an empty-handed warrior charging towards him.

Effective distance for an attack on an armed warrior is around 4 1/2 to 5 feet (sword) and 6 1/2 to 7 feet (spear) and closer. If you start your charge from more than 5 or 6 feet away, he's got plenty of time to see you coming and kill you. And I'm being generous there.

Now if you run towards him and then, with your superior grasp of timing and distance, stop suddenly just outside the effective range of his weapon, be it sword or spear, he might instinctively be goaded into the sort of strike that Aikijutsu depended upon.

Unfortunatley, I cannot agree with you that rushing emptyhanded towards an armed opponent and trying to force him to back up is a good idea. If he was highly trained in the use of that weapon I see no reason whatsoever why he should back up.

He would want you to enter the effective range of his weapon. How will you do that if he backs up? His whole intent is to kill you. He needs you to enter his weapon's range to accomplish his goal.

If you stay outside of it, he has to try to put you into that range himself.

Volunteering to charge into weapon range in an attempt to disorient him or force him to retreat would be to believe you have control over how he will react.

Since that doesn't make any sense, I will assume you mean you will move to him and adopt an aggresive demeanor while staying just outside his weapon's effective range and then launch your attack when you see an opening.

As I stated in the post above, through much trial an error it was determined that the man with the weapon is best defeated by an unarmed opponent when the unarmed warrior appears to be 'open' to a strike and the armed warrior commits and engages and is then taken out.

I am not aware of a single Budo art where the unarmed guy goes first, enters the effective range of the weapon, and takes the sword/spear bearer out.

Going in first empty-handed against a sword or spear carrying warrior the only way you would survive is if you got very, very lucky.

Brian

[Kevin Leavitt]

Mohammed,

Thanks for taking the time to thoughtfully respond. I'd love to respond, I don't have time right this minute, and If I do it here, knowing from years of experience at dealing with Jun on these threads, he is about to give us a warning to "stay on topic".

So I will respond to what I think is pertinent to the thread, does not mean that I am ignoring your post in anyway.

The comment I made about "how do you know it wasn't BJJ?" was done to illicit thought to the statement "I know aikido works because I used this technique". My point is simply this: Does aikido own the technique, why limit yourself, your thought, and confine things to such a small area? Many arts have the exact same technique. It is a matter of your conditioning, experiences, and paradigm that you would say this.

If you shot and killed some one with a gun most people would not say.

I shot and killed a man with the "Smith shooting school methodology" you'd say I shot a man with a .357 at point black range in the chest and he died immediately so I know how to use a gun. Does that make sense?

so if you used ikkyo to take a guy down you used ikkyo. You may have used your weight, brain and lots of other faculties too!

I understand that I am getting very picky about some miniscule words. However, I think when we tend to use words we can also affect our thoughts and perceptions about what it is that is really going on.

I guess that is what I mean when I say "keeping it real". that is, looking deeper into your paradigms and really see what is going on!

As far as my aikido training lately. Not sure what is meant by lately, but I do manage a few times a year to get to seminars and back to my dojo. So to me, yes, I am familiar with how open minded and level headed people are in aikido....at least in my dojo for the most part. However, because of the way we study aikido it is possible for there to exist the "aikibunny" mentality. However, I don't really care, and those guys are welcome to...there is room for all!

I also agree with you on Reality based training. It is probably more dangerous in setting you up for failure. Why, because you go in, practice a few techniques for a limited set of scenarios lyou develop confidence within those narrow parameters, then you come out, the parameters change in reality, and you don't have a good base to adapt what you learn.

This is one of the resaons the Army stopped teaching the "old way" of step by step and adopted a BJJ model as the basis.

techniques commonly learned in aikido do work very good in bar situations. Another topic, but bouncing can be much different than getting mugged or violently attacked. Same with police work. adapting techniques learned from aikido is very useful in these civil enforcement scenarios.

Thanks for your patience Jun! I think there is some good discussion going on around the topic we beat to death over the last 5 years!

[Man of Aiki]

As an example of what I have been explaining, about how highly advanced Aikidoka have been adding and adjusting techniques using aiki principles since O-Sensei died, in order to counter high kicks and low shoots, I would like to provide a link to the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VcOtneCRU

Aikido 7th Dan Steven Seagal is teaching both in Japan and America in formal dojos and in gymnasiums during seminars.

Note the number of times you see a kick defense, and a low shoot defense.

Also, it must be pointed out that I have seen many of the techniques here carried out full speed. Most of them are done at these seminars quite slowly and carefully, as all techniques are when Sensei Seagal is working with someone who can't take the technique full force.

He often slows down to clearly allow the people watching to see what he is doing.

So yes, I expect comments like "Wow, look how slowly that uke shot in' and 'Wow, look how long it took Seagal to do that technique.'

You've all seen video where he's doing the techniques so fast you can't really tell what he's doing unless you slow it down. He's going very, very slow in these clips. incredibly slow. like mollasses going down the side of a tree.

Just so you know.

[kaishaku]

The "throat grab" takedown defense combined with bringing the legs closer to the attacker is certainly an interesting change.

I wouldn't want to try the "duck under the leg" kick defense though, I'd end up accidentally getting clocked in the head. I'll stick with a good old shin check for now.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

So yes, I expect comments like "Wow, look how slowly that uke shot in' and 'Wow, look how long it took Seagal to do that technique.'


And "Wow, look how far away is uke starting the shoot" comments too?

Only trying to reach the 1000 post count :)

[Raspado]

Come on! 1000!!!!!

[Kevin Leavitt]

all right guys! we have to establish some ground rules if we want to reach 1000.

1. You can't do what Mike Geery just did.
2. You can't bait, fish or troll (Jun will take care of that!)
3. You have to post something constructive and worthwhile, or wait until the newbie comes along and unbenownst to him/her...they fall into the "aikido doesn't work in a fight" spiderweb...and you respond with a constructive, articulate, and thoughtful response!

In other words...you must play by the rules of aikiweb!

Now that said...

as far as shooting goes...which btw...what we seem to be discussing here is closing distance. this is probably the biggest area I struggled with when starting BJJ with an aikido background.

In traditional aikido, we practice closing the distance in a much different way typically than you do in BJJ. For one, it is always assumed that weapons are a possibility. Two, we slow things down to a controlled one possible attack that is done with good form and fairly committed. (I did not say off balanced or telegraphed!). We typically also know from nage standpoint what the attack is going to be, unless it is randori....even then we still know alot about the situation.

In BJJ, you typically don't worry about the weapons. You don't know the attack. And it will be masked and hidden by feints and so forth.

All these factors play a great deal in the difference in dynamics of how Aikido and BJJ approach closing the distance.

There is no one right answer. I like aikido because it does a good job of positioning you to deal with a weapon. I also don't like it because it is not very realistic as applied in the dojo.

I like BJJ because you must deal with many, many variables. I also don't like it because we assume away some aspects alot such as weapons.

So, you will have arguments all day long from both sides about the right way to shoot. Or the validity of shooting as a technique. It really depends on the situation.

I would say that I believe if this is a concern of yours, that you should practice as many types of scenarios as you can both with weapons and without at both a slow, deliberate process as well as a fast resistive process...if you want to be well rounded!

Okay, there is my relevant content for the day!

[Raspado]

Damn, Kevin that was harsh. For me, the one on one aspect of BJJ with the aspect of self defense (unarmed) and realistic (unarmed) fighting stands superior in technique and practice to aikido. It lacks severaly in weapons defense and against multiple attackers.

[Kevin Leavitt]

gotta play by the rules if ya want to keep the thread open!

It stands to reason I think about your observations. Aikido tends to focus on the principles and DO, while BJJ concentrates on the SU.

What I do with my Army Dudes is ensure that they have a good base in BJJ and then we work on weapons. We spend 3/4 of our time doing basic BJJ and then 1/4 of our time focusing on weapons and how that changes the dynamic of fighting.

I would not call my weapons work necessarily aikido, but that is my main background so it is essentially what I draw from to teach weapons.

Have you seen Helio Gracie's book? A good friend of mine from Miami sent a copy to me recently. I was really suprised to see that Helio focused on what he felt was being left out of BJJ. It was weapons and self defense oriented stuff...not the sport stuff.

I think BJJ schools, it seems have catered more to the sport aspect of BJJ. I do that too, mainly because that is what young soldiers want to train on, but we do a mixture of sport, weapons, etc.

Aikido methods of training are very good for developing good habits. I try and slow my guys down all the time during the technique phase and try and be more aiki in approach.

My good buddy Michael Neal will probably chime in here at some point, as I know he is very adamant about full speed randori and waza training. There is some truth to this if your goals are to be a good martial artist or fighter. However, in traditional aikido, I don't believe this is really the goal! We only have so much time! We all have to pick what is important to us!

[Michael Douglas]

Mike Geery wrote : " It ( BJJ ) lacks severaly in weapons defense and against multiple attackers."
Well, I'd say it lacks severely in defence against multiple attackers, since most BJJ tactics end up in a clinch of some sort, usually on the ground.
Against weapons however, in a superior clinch is possible the best place to be ...

More to be discussed about this, but personally in training against committed rapid agressive knife attacks I LIKE to get to a clinch with arm-control and strikes. A knife-wielding arm is very very hard to catch, and I feel it is not realistic to expect typically-practiced Aikido to work well against it.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I agree Michael. I actually have been toying with the concept of falling to the ground in a knife attack. The scenario is that you are walking past a guy on the side walk and he has a concealed knife and he lunges at you at striking range upon passing you.

My thoughts are that you don't have time to block or defend in the traditional sense, so you simply fall down in a guarded posture. You avoid the attack and in order for your attacker to attack again, he must come down to your level which essentially in most cases off balances him at which point you can clinch and pull him into the guard and wrestle the weapon.

You can also do this with a multiple opponent scenario too, but that requires that you fall down, use your first attacker to block, then recover come back up into the fighting stance, then you really are back into fairly traditional aikido randori at that point.

In my aikido training we never really addressed close quarters attacks too much. I personally believe that real attacks happen fast and usually the distance is closed before you even see the attack coming, so I like the clinch/MMA stuff for dealing with the attacker as I think it is fairly realistic.

the falling down technique and clinch are wonderful ways for you to establish your center, time, and distance.

You can even clinch, double under arm hook, go to a seat belt, or rear postion..which when you think about it really is iriminage at close quarters! Then you start your traditional randori once you have re-established your kamae and ma'ai.

[DH]

We train extensively in knife. Knife work is among the fastest things one can do. There is very little dedication needed as in a punch. So the in-out- game (edge up) leaves room for very fluid interchanges that end up with the edge in all sorts of arterial places. If you train this way it leaves one to wonder why anyone would ever stand there and face one. If you face a guy who knows what he is doing you are going to get cut. Period. I think allot of stuff that is seen in various schools is imaginary due to the fact that most people don't train with knives. Further don't train with the ugliness of a knives attack/defense potential.
Example offered here: If you dumped on the ground and tried to clinch and I had the knife I would have no need to to a position where you make a clinch happen. Why do I need to go there? I'd just play you and keep cutting your legs or walk away. Or if for some reason if I HAD to go there I would do the same thing I would do to "pass" and continually cut or stab at your legs while sweeping you to get to your body and neck.
To clinch with a fellow with a knife means you get cut/stabbed repeatedly. Weapon work has a great mix of slices not just stabbing. An added benefit of knife is an oppoenets mindset- like a choke attempt. If the giuy is fixated on choking you his hands and mind are focused for a moment. You know what he is doing and what his needs are. You play him other ways. With knife there is potential to cause him to get fixated on the blade while you use his intent to go to other places.
It is a whole other mindset to train to accept you are going to get cut, ward off the knife, but not fixate on it, and attack the body.

When we train with wooden knives the bruises on all parts of the forearms, thighs, kidney area etc. bare testiment to the power offered in a slice or stab-yet they are in-out to tempo or multpile cuts a second. I've had people come in for a one day "basics" intensive class in knife and while they found it rewarding most agree-unless you had to save someone elses life ....walk away from a knife.
Cheers
Dan

[Raspado]

Kevin, I have seen Helio's book. I can't tell you how many of the techniques I learned in aikido class! Yes, definitely BJJ focuses on SU. But I have also heard about Rickson's teaching focusing more on the DO aspect. I don't know if you have heard the same.

As far as full speed randori, have you ever had the opportunity to train with Larry Reynosa. I went from 8 years in ASU to work with Reynosa Sensei. There randori is completely different from what ASU and USAF does.

I have never felt comfortable in a clinch against a weapon. I would think what Dan Harden wrote would happen.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Never had any experience working with Rickson or known anyone directly. I think it would stand to reason at their level and age that you would kinda go that way. At 40 I probably have 10 years left of rolling hard with the young guys. I am already noticing that I do not have the reflexes that I once did, so I must be technically correct in my application.

I agree about the clinch stuff not being optimal. Knife attacks are not optimal! My point is premised by the fact that you simply don't have a choice, the attacker has already closed the distance and is attacking you. Yes, you are going to get cut more than likely. So, going to the ground in a open guard is not optimal, but a simply a measure to minimize immediate and imminent exposure.

It is hard to visualize or talk about....but you can go with it and ride him down. Remember, as Dan pointed out...he is also fixated on the blade so it becomes the point of his energy. This can become nikkyo, rolled around into omoplata. Again, all situational though for sure.

Again with a standing clinch. Not optimal, but if the distance is already closed, and your balance taken what options to you have? you can double underarm hook high limiting the slicing and stabbin g motions while you get a better position. You can go to a modified "seat belt" position keeping the knife away from you until you can get better control of it.

There is other things going on while clinching! I am not talking about the sophmore view of simply hugging him like a wrestling tournament. I am only talking about the basic principle of regaining control of your center and his.

Again, these are all situations that represent the worst case.

These represent situations as Dan describes were you are attacking the body and not fixating on the knife. I'd rather move into his center and attack his body (clinch) than to attempt to move out and gain distance. You think you get cut in the clinch, wait until you get about 1 foot from him on the way back out.

I am curious as to what options you guys might propose once vital distance has been closed? I know no other way other than the clinch as the primary means to control his body while re-centering, positioning and isolating the knife.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dan wrote:

Example offered here: If you dumped on the ground and tried to clinch and I had the knife I would have no need to to a position where you make a clinch happen. Why do I need to go there? I'd just play you and keep cutting your legs or walk away. Or if for some reason if I HAD to go there I would do the same thing I would do to "pass" and continually cut or stab at your legs while sweeping you to get to your body and neck.

Why do you need to go there? Exactly my point. He won't unless he is not thinking clearly and is emotionally charged, fixated on the knife, (as you point out), and fully committed to the next attack. It happens!

Yea you will get your legs cut some. Again, it sucks...really I am sure it does. But better than catching it in the carotid, kidneys or other vital areas. Guys...this is not an optimal fighting position!

Passing the guard. If you have a good grasp of the guard. It is not as easy as you think to get around to a "side control". You are not simply laying there!!!! Most guys when they start BJJ don't really understand the dynamics of the guard. Newbs and outsiders think "Closed Guard". Guard is a transition position in my book...it is dynamic!

So, while he is trying to pass the guard (yes while trying to cut your legs that are typically moving rapidily through trousers), you have bought some time. You can use small kicks to keep him away and time his move backward to pass to a side sweep to stand back up in a balanced posture.

Guess what...you just bought back your distance!

Again, I can talk my way out of this all day long. This is the web, and we can armchair it all day long. It is simply a scenario...not perfect by any means.

I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack.

[kupoback]

Actually from what I've seen, Aikido can be used in normal fights. I would tell how, but I can't pronounce let alone type what these moves are, but say someone ski's using a weapon, or Shomen stirke with a weapon, or yokeame strike. They can save your life.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Yup Nick, no doubt about it! these things will work.

[Mark Freeman]

Kevin wrote:
I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack.

I would think anything would be better than that!
I was just settling down for a small scan of the threads before I go to bed, and that little image is probably going to give me nightmares! :eek:

I think I'll go and pour myself a large scotch....( any excuse ) ;)

Boy, you guys really like to rough it up don't you. :dead:

[DH]

Again, I can talk my way out of this all day long. This is the web, and we can armchair it all day long. It is simply a scenario...not perfect by any means.

I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack.


Hi Kev
Agreed. But I wasn't "armchairing" we train this way. As for Carotids and kidneys etc that I mentioned? Thats what slicing the legs arterials and connective tissue is for-to lead there.

Its just a view... but the last place on earth I would ever choose to be with a person who has a knife is on the ground- thats all.
Training with sticks is a great method as the cuts, bruises, contusions and sometimes fractures, make you very tactically aware of how vulnerable you really are. Two or three cuts a second coupled with good body awareness and a focused intent is allot for most men to handle.
Cheers
Dan

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dan,

I know you didn't mention chest, kidneys etc. That was my perspective on the scenario and was simply pointing out that the falling to the ground was to move down the continium to a "better" position than having that happen to you. It is all realitive to the situation.

Legs are less risky than the core. the Most vital Arteries on the legs are on the back of the knee, hamstrings, and on the front Femoral. On your front it is more difficult for someone to get to your vital arterial areas. They have to bend down and underhook to get to the back of the knee.

Again, we can argue all day long. It is realitive to situation and "what if"..so not perfect and only an "option" or perspective.

yea..no kidding...if I have a choice I wouldn't go to the ground either.

Guys that think BJJ guys "want" to fight from the ground have no experience in BJJ and really don't understand the dynamics of fighting. I was of this limited mindset myself several years ago!

I admit it is scary if you have rudimentary skills in ground fighting! Also, to re-interate...BJJ guys don't default to the ground by choice in a real fight...they simply are more efficient than those that refuse to accept this as a fact that it happens!

We train with Tasers on occasion. Much more effective and realistic than sticks...try it out if you haven't. Nothing like pain to get the message across to get out of the way and positive control of the situation!

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hey Nick...meant to add to my post last night...but ran out of time.

Yes the things you state will work. Aikido can build wonderful instincts for reacting appropriately to weapons attacks, especially baseball bats and long sticks where the attacker has some distance and is closing it using the weapon.

The dynamics of knife attacks are a little different sometimes, especially when the attacker uses STEALTH and CONCEALMENT to close distance. You don't realize the distance is closed until you are off balance and the attack is proceeding. So you have to respond tactically some how to regain distance.

I am not professing to know how to appropriately respond to this in any and all situations.

Yes, principles of aikido apply 100%, in my aikido experiences, we don't concentrate on worry about these scenarios because we are teaching principles and the tactical aspects of a real attack creates way too much "static" to convey appropriate and proper movement!

I hope I did not lead you to believe that aikido priniciples do not apply or are irrelevant...because they are relevant and work.

Good training!

[Robert Rumpf]

There seems to be a consensus among the current posters on this thread (probably due to their personal interests and the fact that certain arts are the current fad) that increased practice in BJJ (and potentially MMA) would help people in Aikido to bring some of the things that are regarded as "important" back into Aikido that have "left", or are "leaving" it. Regardless of what I may think about that...

In the spirit of putting out a fire with gasoline (and doing my share to get us to that 1000 posts mark), I wanted to ask the following open-ended question: what about other arts, or other types of arts are we (as Aikidoka) on average missing out on the principles of? What about more Kendo, more Arnis, more Jodo, more Karate, more Taekwondo, more Tai chi, more Kung fu, etc.?

Not all of these things need to be external. Some of them can be internal. Maybe we should be playing more Go to train our minds. Maybe we should be playing Kim's game to train our memory.

Are the skills and principles of those arts all encompassed in Aikido (and BJJ, and MMA if you assume that a well rounded practitioner knows a little bit of those) currently or are they not deemed to teach anything "useful"? If one accepts the notion that all martial arts are good at at least one thing, don't these have something to contribute to Aikido that Aikido "lacks" or at least that its current practitioners neglect?

What are those, and which are more important for your training (now and in the future) and why? What's the hierarchy of their importance?

Just kicking the ball to start it rolling..
Rob

[Kevin Leavitt]

Hi Rob,

I'd say aikido is pretty good at aikido! It is designed as we practice it, IMHO, at ANV to convey the lessons that ASU, Saotome, and Jimmy want us to learn based on many, many years of trial area and discovery. Pretty complete if you ask me for what it's goals are.

So I'd say based on that, no there really is nothing that other arts could contribute to aikido as aikido is aikido. (circular logic that helps us to 1000) :)

Anyway. McDojo.

Sure all arts have something that they do right..even McDojos must have SOMETHING to contribute! to something.

TKD. It seems to take it's share of beatings. Nothing wrong with TKD. There is good TKD and bad TKD and it is judged based on a multitude of factors/perceptions. However there is ITF/WTF etc. that kinda serve as the "generally accepted principles" of TKD. So that is a measure of value.

MMA guys love to pick on TKD as not being a good art. It is not necesarly for MMA. Fueled by many McDojos out there that churn out 12 year old black belts who have neither the maturity, nor the experience to know the limitiations of their studies! So they fall prey to the immaturity and lack of life experience of many young MMA studs.

But even in TKD there is things that are relevant and good. I still have some awesome kicks from my TKD days!

It really depends on your goals of training. What might be good for you, may not be good for others. I certainly would not train in aikido or even the best TKD school if I was going into the UFC! Not the most efficient methodologies for training!

So how do you define "well rounded"? I think it depends on your perspective. I certainly might have more "experiences" than some aikido practicioners, however, when I step into our dojo in Arlington, I am not "well rounded" in aikido!

I can grasp the concepts of aikido at maybe a shodan level, I can write about them on the internet prolifically and sound like an expert...but in practice I am a 2nd Kyu. So "well rounded" is an interesting concept!

good discussion.

[dps]

I have a theory that all martial arts originated from a single source martial art and the diversity is due to the cultural influence as the original martial art spread through the world.

What is the prize for the person who is the 1000th poster?

[xuzen]

I am pretty well rounded.... at least at my midesection. :D :D :D. Sorry, can't help it.

Boon

P/s - Only 254 post to go.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Dave what do you base this theory on?

I think it is quite possible that they developed parallel. Same stimulus, incentive, but not from single source.

[Richard Langridge]

Certainly you could say that a large number of the chinese and japanese martial arts developed from the same source (Chinese emmissaries in Okinawa, etc.). However, lots of isolated communities seem to have come up with their own martial arts for their own reasons, such as Muay Thai etc. Somebody correct me if I'm talking garbage!

[JasonFDeLucia]

Again, I can talk my way out of this all day long. This is the web, and we can armchair it all day long. It is simply a scenario...not perfect by any means.

I think it is slightly better than getting a knife repeatedly plunged into your carotid, chest, or kidneys from an overwhelming attack.


Hi Kev
Agreed. But I wasn't "armchairing" we train this way. As for Carotids and kidneys etc that I mentioned? Thats what slicing the legs arterials and connective tissue is for-to lead there.

Its just a view... but the last place on earth I would ever choose to be with a person who has a knife is on the ground- thats all.
Training with sticks is a great method as the cuts, bruises, contusions and sometimes fractures, make you very tactically aware of how vulnerable you really are. Two or three cuts a second coupled with good body awareness and a focused intent is allot for most men to handle.
Cheers
Dan

if you had sufficient control over him and the knife it's a good place to land ,but it is better to be the hell out of there overall .