Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

[Please visit our sponsor:]

[shuckser]

*sigh*

Not one of you seems to realise that the most important thing about baking is the internal practice. If your baking lacks internal power it is useless. And to be honest, what would be the point?

It's at least a way to develop the form. With mastery of that, one can move on to studying the four principles of Baking to develop ones IP:

1. Keep rolling pin.
2. Leaven completely.
3. Keep flour underside.
4. Expend heat.

Again, these won't help you to actually eat. But with a few decades of study you might be able to lay the breakfast table.

[Walter Martindale]

Two thousand. :D

Three Thousand - Let's go for it!:freaky:

[mathewjgano]

Look, I'm not going to comment on anyone else's cooking; some prefer French, some Thai, and then there's always fusion. Even fried bologna can be filling. All I know is, for me, I bake so I don't have to eat in the first place.

:p

[PeterR]

Look, I'm not going to comment on anyone else's cooking; some prefer French, some Thai, and then there's always fusion. Even fried bologna can be filling. All I know is, for me, I bake so I don't have to eat in the first place.

:p

Have your cake and eat it too.

[Shadowfax]

Three Thousand - Let's go for it!:freaky:

I could go for some 3000. And a cup of coffee. :D

[Walter Martindale]

I could go for some 3000. And a cup of coffee. :D

Further and further off topic... (or is it farther?)
"some 3000"? What's that? And if I ever get to Pittsburgh, I'm up for a coffee... Pittsburgh - that's somewhere in the eastern USA, right? They claim to have Penguins there, but I've only ever seen penguins in New Zealand...

[Garth Jones]

Further and further off topic... (or is it farther?)
"some 3000"? What's that? And if I ever get to Pittsburgh, I'm up for a coffee... Pittsburgh - that's somewhere in the eastern USA, right? They claim to have Penguins there, but I've only ever seen penguins in New Zealand...

Pittsburgh is about 200 miles straight south of you. There is a lake in the way though. It's about a 5 hour drive. So come on down, train with us, and have coffee!

Cheers,
Garth

PS Our Penguins wear ice skates are paid lots of money....

[Riai Maori]

but I've only ever seen penguins in New Zealand...

Yellow eye?:D And yes those Bluff oysters are delicious.

[Walter Martindale]

Yellow eye?:D And yes those Bluff oysters are delicious.

Little Blue. Near Oamaru. And... I forget exactly where, but the petrified wood on shoreline, "Mainland" somewhere IIRC..

When we were at regattas at Twizel, the Awarua Boating Club (Bluff) would bring oysters to the pub for all the rowers and coaches... when in season, of course.

Pittsburgh Penguins.. currently sans their superstar. Hmm. I'd visit for a practice but for not having tied on a hakama since... wow... 2011. Old age, arthritis, and shortage of dojo that practice when I'm not at work..

[Petrus]

https://youtu.be/5Hoeb7sBqRc
Perhaps this will help.
Cheers
Petrus

[bothhandsclapping]

As a new Aikido student, I'll never forget here in Albuquerque going to an event called All Japan Week, where they had representatives from about 15 or so different Japanese martial arts - each giving a short demonstration. I was amazed by the number of times that I said to myself - "hey, that's an Aikido move!" (Like the other arts stole our techniques.)

For the techniques that stress wrists and elbows and shoulders - almost every martial art has all the very same moves as Aikido. After all, there are only so many ways an arm can bend and turn and only so many ways you can try to use that turning and bending to influence an encounter. Realistically, to call an arm bar an Aikido move would be a bit of a stretch.

[Erik Calderon]

I put this vlog together talking about how Aikido can be used for real self defense. Might not be what you expect, but I will post here that I have used Aikido in a few "real life" situations and it worked just fine for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_UVrR8b-Zs

[shizentai]

I put this vlog together talking about how Aikido can be used for real self defense. Might not be what you expect, but I will post here that I have used Aikido in a few "real life" situations and it worked just fine for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_UVrR8b-Zs

All I saw in your video is repetitive advertising of Aikido's "fall and get up" routine as something unique to Aikido.

[Erik Calderon]

All I saw in your video is repetitive advertising of Aikido's "fall and get up" routine as something unique to Aikido.

Thank you for watching my video, I hope you enjoyed the content. And I have to admit, the only other art that I've seen that effectively teaches how to fall is Ninjutsu.

I had a really good friend while I lived in Japan, Sean Askew, that trained in Ninjutsu, and we used to go to the temples and train together. It was a lot of fun, and when you're getting thrown around on concrete, you learn real fast what works and what doesn't.

Oh, and by the way, being in shape is extremely important for making Aikido work in a real fight. Here's a vlog that I just uploaded on one of my training routines:


http://www.shinkikan.com/images/thumbnails/run_houston_aikiweb.jpg (https://youtu.be/ku1AiBqnXnc)

[shizentai]

You forgot Judo and Hapkido. Ukemi is not unique to Aikido, and the trope about ukemi being self-defense, is wearing pretty thin IMO.

Yes, being in shape is important to self-defense. But again, this doesn't have much relevance to the topic of a specific martial art's effectiveness in self-defense.

[Erik Calderon]

You forgot Judo and Hapkido. Ukemi is not unique to Aikido, and the trope about ukemi being self-defense, is wearing pretty thin IMO.

Yes, being in shape is important to self-defense. But again, this doesn't have much relevance to the topic of a specific martial art's effectiveness in self-defense.

Hapkido is one art, I've seen, but never experienced. And I don't think Ukemi is unique to Aikido, and I've seen my fill of Aikido teachers that teach ukemi in a way that would hurt if you landed on concrete!

One thing that I've always kept very dear to my heart, "The Martial Art doesn't make The Man; The Man Makes the Martial Art." [Man meaning human being, nothing to do with gender]

So, for Aikido to be effective as a self-defense, it really has everything to do with the "Person" and nothing to do with the art itself.

[shizentai]

One thing that I've always kept very dear to my heart, "The Martial Art doesn't make The Man; The Man Makes the Martial Art." [Man meaning human being, nothing to do with gender]

So, for Aikido to be effective as a self-defense, it really has everything to do with the "Person" and nothing to do with the art itself.

This isn't a universal concept, though. It applies to Aikido because Aikido offers a wider spectrum of benefits than physical self-defense (namely, the misogi element), and the emphasis is clearly NOT on physical self-defense.

So in order to make it work in reality, one does have to do homework - to look into modernized Aikido, to experiment, play with resistance, get a bit mischievous.

This, however, doesn't apply to systems which are designed from ground up to be focused on physical application, with any spiritual benefits being a secondary side-effect. You learn those systems, and your ability to physically defend yourself will inevitably improve. It's the spiritual side that you'd have to do homework on, and that's the side which will vary from one practitioner to the next.

[IvLabush]

It's outstanding question that arise as many years as I have practiced Aikido.
As far as I concern there are a lot of misleadings about self-defence vs Aikido questions.
Let's start about self-defence term. Today self-defence in common sence means Personal Unarmed Self-defence that aims to preserve person's rights for live, health, wealth and dignity. Was this terms common in century old Japan? I think not. People 'make a fists at other' to fight each other for some reason. Small sheeves have been common in that times. Defend valuable things means fight others in old times.
In 1945 tables was changed for Japan and martial arts was changed in a way that times demands. Some of old traditions have been wanished mostly others changes. Modern Aikido that we familiar of aims to (I have read Japanese wiki about Aikido and there is a point to laught on me):
1. Physical and mental development;
2. Union of personality and nature;
3. Build personality that's usefull for sosiety.
What does it means? It means that there is no goal to growth figthers using modern Aikido. Of course methods and techniques of modern Aikido based on old methods and techniques of Japanese martial arts could hurt people in some way. So the one that aims to hurt people able to do it in some way. But basically modern martial arts aims to develop people in proper to sosiety way.
The next point is about modern self-defence itself.
You're not allowed to hurt people in a way that outdo local lores. Despite some local lores than allow to shoot man trespassing your territory local lores's quite heavy.
Some court may threats martial art skills as aggravating circumstances. So your ability to defend yourself depends on circumstances.
In my point of view the best fight tactics in modern world - avoid the fights. It's quite simple 'not to stand in place that could be hitten'. Someone may call me a coward but social life the way more important than proud.
Regarding my old times I remember one episode, sorry for my nostalgia. One man said to me that self defence is an ability to see to hear and to feel troubles in order to avoid it. If you had to 'make your fists' it means that you miss the point of self-defence and had to fight and you'll stand up the lore for that basically.

Sorry for my poor English, hope my ideas come to you unchanged.

[dps]

This isn't a universal concept, though. It applies to Aikido because Aikido offers a wider spectrum of benefits than physical self-defense (namely, the misogi element), and the emphasis is clearly NOT on physical self-defense.

So in order to make it work in reality, one does have to do homework - to look into modernized Aikido, to experiment, play with resistance, get a bit mischievous.

This, however, doesn't apply to systems which are designed from ground up to be focused on physical application, with any spiritual benefits being a secondary side-effect. You learn those systems, and your ability to physically defend yourself will inevitably improve. It's the spiritual side that you'd have to do homework on, and that's the side which will vary from one practitioner to the next.

The Aikido I was taught was clearly about physical self-defence and it worked as experienced by myself and others in my dojo. The the spiritual side was there too but was reached by the training and experience of being able to defend oneself.

Playing with resistance is like a child making noise on a plastic toy musical instrumental compared to Baroque or Classical musicians.

dps

[Walter Martindale]

This isn't a universal concept, though. It applies to Aikido because Aikido offers a wider spectrum of benefits than physical self-defense (namely, the misogi element), and the emphasis is clearly NOT on physical self-defense.

So in order to make it work in reality, one does have to do homework - to look into modernized Aikido, to experiment, play with resistance, get a bit mischievous.

This, however, doesn't apply to systems which are designed from ground up to be focused on physical application, with any spiritual benefits being a secondary side-effect. You learn those systems, and your ability to physically defend yourself will inevitably improve. It's the spiritual side that you'd have to do homework on, and that's the side which will vary from one practitioner to the next.

Every dojo where I’ve been a member emphasized self defence and a lot of training... only some paid slight attention to anything spiritual outside of the starting and ending rites at a training session

[shizentai]

The Aikido I was taught was clearly about physical self-defence and it worked as experienced by myself and others in my dojo. The the spiritual side was there too but was reached by the training and experience of being able to defend oneself.

Playing with resistance is like a child making noise on a plastic toy musical instrumental compared to Baroque or Classical musicians.

dps

"No True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't change the fact that there's a very good reason why mainstream Aikido is the class clown of the martial arts world. It CAN be made useful for self-defense. But, for example, the way the current Doshu demonstrates it, has little to do with physical practicality, and is clearly oriented toward self-purification as primary goal.

Every dojo where I've been a member emphasized self defence and a lot of training... only some paid slight attention to anything spiritual outside of the starting and ending rites at a training session

If your dojos were mainstream Aikikai or Ki Society, as opposed to modernized fringe branches of Aikido, then they were doing the typical disservice to their students by making them believe they're learning a self-defense system. Intent does not equal outcome.

[Walter Martindale]

"No True Scotsman" fallacy doesn't change the fact that there's a very good reason why mainstream Aikido is the class clown of the martial arts world. It CAN be made useful for self-defense. But, for example, the way the current Doshu demonstrates it, has little to do with physical practicality, and is clearly oriented toward self-purification as primary goal.

If your dojos were mainstream Aikikai or Ki Society, as opposed to modernized fringe branches of Aikido, then they were doing the typical disservice to their students by making them believe they're learning a self-defense system. Intent does not equal outcome.

It depends on the sensei. I was fortunate to have sensei who had practical experience dealing with disturbed, drugged, or armed opponents... a meat cleaver in one instance, where the rest of his team shot the other attackers after he dealt with the guy with the chopper - he told me he wasn’t sure if his attacker lived through the iriminage with head taking full impact with a concrete floor.

[lbb]

81 pages, 18 years, god knows how many posts rehashing the same old stuff. The zombie thread that will never die because people never learn and are incapable of letting it go.

[Walter Martindale]

81 pages, 18 years, god knows how many posts rehashing the same old stuff. The zombie thread that will never die because people never learn and are incapable of letting it go.

C’mon Mary, we’re trying for 3000 posts... now if people would look at, say, the first five pages, they’d likely see that someone has already expressed their opinion in one form or another..

Must... not... post... noooooo

[MrIggy]

81 pages, 18 years, god knows how many posts rehashing the same old stuff. The zombie thread that will never die because people never learn and are incapable of letting it go.

"Let go" of what? The fact that people are claiming to teach a martial art with which none of them can actually fight? Seriously, what's the problem of discussing this issue?

[lbb]

"Let go" of what? The fact that people are claiming to teach a martial art with which none of them can actually fight? Seriously, what's the problem of discussing this issue?

The problem is that it's not an "issue". Unless, of course, you choose to make it one, and let it live in your head rent-free.

You don't control other people, Igor. You don't control their claims. Why elevate your blood pressure trying?

[Dan Rubin]

CNN reports that last evening, in Charlotte, NC, a man tried to kidnap a woman by forcing her into his car, but she broke free and ran into a nearby karate studio, pleading to the head instructor for help. The attacker followed her in "and was dealt with accordingly." Lucky for her she didn't run into an aikido dojo.

[MrIggy]

The problem is that it's not an "issue". Unless, of course, you choose to make it one, and let it live in your head rent-free.

Yes it is. How you people manage to "let it go" is what baffles me.

You don't control other people, Igor. You don't control their claims. Why elevate your blood pressure trying?

Who said anything about controlling claims? If I can break one's limbs the control of claims is pointless.

[mathewjgano]

"Let go" of what? The fact that people are claiming to teach a martial art with which none of them can actually fight? Seriously, what's the problem of discussing this issue?

None of them? Sounds like false advertising to me, Igor. :p

...By the way I make zero claims about my "can."


I see no problem with discussing the issue, but as long as people understand their limitations I don't see a huge problem.

[MrIggy]

None of them? Sounds like false advertising to me, Igor. :p

What?

I see no problem with discussing the issue, but as long as people understand their limitations I don't see a huge problem.

Again what?

[Rupert Atkinson]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. I remember a woman's group that trained before my Jujutsu class back in the 80s. They were practicing shouting/screaming 'No' at each other. One day I tried to enter a bit early and got the 'No' treatment from a student. Scariest thing ever and impossible to enter! The instructor actually apologised afterwards :-) I was rather impressed.
I think it was Bruce Lee that said this: How you train is how you fight; how you fight is how you train.

[Denobudo]

Aikido is like any other art in my humble opinion so if your a brave fighter and super skilled in aikido it can work for you just like any other japanese based art not all the moves were meant for total destruction but yet some where made to keep the peace but it can be a very deadly art trust me there if you know what your doing it can save your life and then some and ive took may other arts aikido is great for stand up clinch movement and as it was once called before much like separated version of judo

[lbb]

Yes it is. How you people manage to "let it go" is what baffles me.

You can't decide what other people's concerns should be, Igor. Therefore, you can't decide what is and isn't an "issue". It seems simple to me.

And, by the way, a "you people" statement is a pretty clear signal that you haven't thought much about your audience.

[MrIggy]

You can't decide what other people's concerns should be, Igor. Therefore, you can't decide what is and isn't an "issue". It seems simple to me.

This isn't about trivial issues, this is about the core issue of a supposed martial art. It's not about me either, there are far more people pointing this out. You are aware of that.

And, by the way, a "you people" statement is a pretty clear signal that you haven't thought much about your audience.

What "audience", I'm not a spokesperson?!

[lbb]

There is absolutely no point to this discussion. At all.

[MrIggy]

There is absolutely no point to this discussion. At all.

There was never a discussion in the first place.

[MRoh]

"Let go" of what? The fact that people are claiming to teach a martial art with which none of them can actually fight?

Wonder of wonders.
A martial art that was founded by a religious man, who said his art was not about fighting and who did not teach how to fight, but how to train ones body, or rather body mechanics based on a taoist cosmology.
An art that has no practice mode that trains fighting strategy and no competitions in which on could test fighting abilities.
An art that is practiced in dojos, that are places of harmony and often have an atmosphere like wellness-areas, not like combat schools .
You can take what you got from Aikido and go to some place where fighting is trained, there you learn how to fight.

[MrIggy]

Wonder of wonders.
A martial art that was founded by a religious man, who said his art was not about fighting and who did not teach how to fight, but how to train ones body, or rather body mechanics based on a taoist cosmology.
An art that has no practice mode that trains fighting strategy and no competitions in which on could test fighting abilities.
An art that is practiced in dojos, that are places of harmony and often have an atmosphere like wellness-areas, not like combat schools .
You can take what you got from Aikido and go to some place where fighting is trained, there you learn how to fight.

Dude please, I know more than a couple of people who could fight and defeat trained fighters while training in Aikido alone. And it didn't take them 20 years to learn it.

[Walter Martindale]

Wonder of wonders.
A martial art that was founded by a religious man, who said his art was not about fighting and who did not teach how to fight, but how to train ones body, or rather body mechanics based on a taoist cosmology.
An art that has no practice mode that trains fighting strategy and no competitions in which on could test fighting abilities.
An art that is practiced in dojos, that are places of harmony and often have an atmosphere like wellness-areas, not like combat schools .
You can take what you got from Aikido and go to some place where fighting is trained, there you learn how to fight.

Have you read biographies of Morihei Ueshiba? He was invited to do a demonstration for the Emperor of Japan - and he tried to refuse, apparently saying "I'd have to show true Aikido and kill my uke." - according to what I read, he was persuaded to back off a little and spare the life of his uke - so he "only" broke uke's leg.

If I still have the book, it may take me some time to dig up the reference, but I've moved about 8 times since reading that, so perhaps someone else can find a citation.

[shizentai]

Have you read biographies of Morihei Ueshiba? He was invited to do a demonstration for the Emperor of Japan - and he tried to refuse, apparently saying "I'd have to show true Aikido and kill my uke." - according to what I read, he was persuaded to back off a little and spare the life of his uke - so he "only" broke uke's leg.

If I still have the book, it may take me some time to dig up the reference, but I've moved about 8 times since reading that, so perhaps someone else can find a citation.

All that would demonstrate is that "true Aikido" can kill a uke. Of course it can - so can clotheslining a passing-by bicyclist. This has no relation to its actual practicality.

Aikido has the potential to be a practical system for emptyhand self-defense, but that potential lies within Tenshin Aikido, mostly, IMO.

[RonRagusa]

Aikido has the potential to be a practical system for emptyhand self-defense, but that potential lies within Tenshin Aikido, mostly, IMO.

I'd say the potential lies within the practitioner. The art is merely the tool that is wielded to realize the potential.

Ron

[shizentai]

I'd say the potential lies within the practitioner. The art is merely the tool that is wielded to realize the potential.

Ron

I find it interesting that this peculiar offloading of responsibility is so prevalent in Aikido. When you go train in a combat system like Muay Thai, Judo, wrestling or BJJ, nobody says "we give you the art and it's up to you if it works". Everyone knows that practitioners of these systems, even at low level, will destroy most untrained attackers.

But with Aikido... so much is missing from the core system that making it practical becomes "homework".

[MRoh]

Have you read biographies of Morihei Ueshiba? He was invited to do a demonstration for the Emperor of Japan - and he tried to refuse, apparently saying "I'd have to show true Aikido and kill my uke." - according to what I read, he was persuaded to back off a little and spare the life of his uke - so he "only" broke uke's leg.

If I still have the book, it may take me some time to dig up the reference, but I've moved about 8 times since reading that, so perhaps someone else can find a citation.

I didn't say Ueshiba was not able to fight, or to kill people.
I said he didn't teach how to fight. He created no fighting system, but a body education system.
And thats what his students tought to the world.
It's true that Aikido has the potential to be a self defense system, but primarily it has nothing to do with real fighting. Everybody talks about this "potential", but how many known fighters Aikido has brought forth?
Fighting in Aikido is just treated theoretically, there are concepts of irimi, masakatsu agatsu, or the saying that an Aikidoka should be able to consistently cut down an opponent with the first blow, but for the most practioneres it is nothing they could do or use in a real fight, nobody in Aikido really trains to cut down people with one single blow or strike, for the majority it's just an idea.
What Ueshiba did or what he could do personally is a different story, he was trained in another way and in another time, and in his later years he was not at all interested in producing fighters, nor was his son. It was his intention that people get the idea of fighting out of their heads.



Aikido has the potential to be a practical system for emptyhand self-defense, but that potential lies within Tenshin Aikido, mostly, IMO.

No, I don't think so, they just make more noise.

[shizentai]

No, I don't think so, they just make more noise.

That's a superficial observation. I have some familiarity with Tenshin both thru indirect observation, and interaction with people who trained their method. The uke-nagashi deflection alone, which is not used in classic Aikido, is an amazing multi-tool which is highly valuable for Aikido. It can be used as a practical tenkan, as an entry into waki gatame, as a grip-fighting technique, and as a punch deflection.

And that's just one little thing that's an upgrade. There are many others, many of which are subtle modifications of how classic techniques are trained. Others are more obvious, like finger controls and full-speed punching drills.

Realni Aikido is the system that's mostly just more loud and faster. Tenshin has real, valuable technical enhancements.

[MrIggy]

What Ueshiba did or what he could do personally is a different story, he was trained in another way and in another time, and in his later years he was not at all interested in producing fighters, nor was his son. It was his intention that people get the idea of fighting out of their heads.

And if there was evidence for anything that you had posted here, that would be great.

No, I don't think so, they just make more noise.

And in this case noise is good.

[Dan Rubin]

Have you read biographies of Morihei Ueshiba? He was invited to do a demonstration for the Emperor of Japan - and he tried to refuse, apparently saying "I'd have to show true Aikido and kill my uke." - according to what I read, he was persuaded to back off a little and spare the life of his uke - so he "only" broke uke's leg.

If I still have the book, it may take me some time to dig up the reference, but I've moved about 8 times since reading that, so perhaps someone else can find a citation.

Interview with Gozo Shioda by Stanley Pranin, Aiki News #93 (Fall 1992):

Q. Ueshiba Sensei gave a special demonstration at the Saineikan Dojo in the Imperial palace grounds about 1941. Did this occur as a result of his connection with Admiral Isamu Takeshita?

A. Yes. When Takeshita Sensei was a Grand Chamberlain he was told by the Emperor to arrange for aikido to be shown to him, so he went to the Ueshiba dojo. Ueshiba Sensei answered, "I can't show false techniques to the Emperor. Basically in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again. [On the other hand], I can't go around killing my students." He refused the invitation in this way, but when Takeshita Sensei told this to the Emperor, he said, "I don't care if it's a lie. Show me the lie!" Tsutomu Yukawa and I took ukemi.

Q. I understand the Emperor was not actually present the day of the demonstration.

A. Yes, that's right.

Prince Mikasa [a younger brother of the emperor], Prince Takamatsu, and Prince Chichibu were in attendance. Takeshita Sensei was the announcer and explained the techniques. It was really something to give a demonstration before the Imperial family in those days and so we couldn't do anything disrespectful.

Q. I believe Ueshiba Sensei was sick on that occasion.

A. Yes. Since Sensei was ill Yukawa attacked him weakly and was thrown hard and broke his arm.

[MRoh]

And if there was evidence for anything that you had posted here, that would be great.


I do not think this is neccessary, there is enough evidence to show Ueshibas thoughts about fighting.

The uke-nagashi deflection alone, which is not used in classic Aikido, is an amazing multi-tool which is highly valuable for Aikido.

Maybe there are some valuable movements, but they don't exist only in tenshin aikido, and what I see is sometimes inconsistend to the system of aikido, there are breaks between the handdeflections and the follow-up techniques, which are just normal aikido, and not performed on al very high Level, they are not more practicable for fighting situations then techniques from other "styles".
For example in kote-gaeshi, uke can punch in nages face because throwing is too late and nages position is in front of uke, instead of staying behind him, and things like this.
It is ok that they do what they do, but it doesn't amaze me, and there is no reason to make that noise.

[observer]

You must have both hands free to perform any aikido technique. Thus, one should descend from the attack line, at least through the deviation of the torso. The fact that Morihei Ueshiba mastered this skill to perfection may be testified by witnesses to his duel with a naval officer who was an advanced kendo player. This duel took place in 1925 and ended with opponent's surrendering who attacked with a wooden sword. Not once was he able to hit the Master who appeared empty-handed. As far as I know, none of the students of O'Sensei as well as their students, have been able to do so until now. And that's exactly what ends all discussions in this topic.

[MRoh]

Dude please, I know more than a couple of people who could fight and defeat trained fighters while training in Aikido alone. And it didn't take them 20 years to learn it.

What is a "trained fighter"?
And why do you say then that "people are claiming to teach a martial art with which none of them can actually fight"?
On one side there are lots of people who can defeat trained fighters (whatever that means), and on the other side there is no one who can fight?

[MRoh]

This duel took place in 1925 and ended with opponent's surrendering who attacked with a wooden sword.

That was Haga Sensei, at that time he was a 24 years old All-Japan-champion in Kendo.

But it wasn't really a duel, O Sensei walked around the dojo and told him to try to hit him.

[observer]

That was Haga Sensei, at that time he was a 24 years old All-Japan-champion in Kendo.
Thank you and I would be very grateful for the source from which this information comes from.

[shizentai]

Maybe there are some valuable movements, but they don't exist only in tenshin aikido, and what I see is sometimes inconsistend to the system of aikido, there are breaks between the handdeflections and the follow-up techniques, which are just normal aikido, and not performed on al very high Level, they are not more practicable for fighting situations then techniques from other "styles".
For example in kote-gaeshi, uke can punch in nages face because throwing is too late and nages position is in front of uke, instead of staying behind him, and things like this.
It is ok that they do what they do, but it doesn't amaze me, and there is no reason to make that noise.

They're not merely valuable movements, they're crucial to practicality. Tenshin deflections aren't explicitly taught in any other Aikido style, and they certainly aren't drilled. Uke nagashi is a system onto itself, which needs to be studied, because it teaches practicality.

What use is your Aikido if you can't enter into a technique? Tenshin covers that better than any other Aikido branch, as it is far more developed in that department.

[observer]

I think that It is important to confront in this topic these two opinions below:

Interview with Gozo Shioda by Stanley Pranin, Aiki News #93 (Fall 1992):...Ueshiba Sensei answered, "I can't show false techniques to the Emperor. Basically in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again....
He did not create a combat system, but a body education system.
They seem extreme or even contradictory. Usually, people think about Aikido somewhere in between. In my opinion, they are compatible with each other. Indeed, Aikido is not a combat system nor a fighting art, but the art of killing with one blow. Similarly, to achieve this skill, you must create your trained reflexes, which is actually the education of the body.

Based on sources in English (mainly, the Stanley Pranin's archive), two the most influential pupils of O'Sensei, Koichi Tohei and Gozo Shioda, agreed that they did not understand Master's art or even what he said about it. On the basis of what they observed, they created their "own Aikido", which he did not object to. However, there are reports that Morhei Ueshiba watching the Koichi Tohei's class several times stated that this is not "his Aikido". In fact, what we practice today as Aikido is the result of their development.

Someone can ask - how can you kill with one blow? There are two options. When we descend from the attack line, e.g. by tilting the torso, we follow the attacking hand. In the first case, and this applies to most Aikido techniques, we make the attacker stand on his toes. It can be done e.g., by placing a pin to raise his elbow vertically upwards to straighten him up. The elbow pulled down pulls the head behind and then the whole body. In the second case, we turn the attacker's body back around the axis of his hips. If we stop the attacker's hand so that the head does not touch the ground, then we are talking about training or self-defense. If we do not stop it, the attacker should break his neck.
 

[Mary Eastland]

Aikido does not work in a fight because nothing works in a fight. What does winning prove...nothing. Aikido works in self defense because it helps to keep one safe. Using whatever we need to use to get though situations and then dealing with the aftermath of violence is the real challenge.

A fight...who wins....who cares???

[MRoh]

Aikido is not a combat system nor a fighting art, but the art of killing with one blow.

Nobody who trains Aikido, has ever "killed with one blow". So how can you say that?

Tenshin deflections aren't explicitly taught in any other Aikido style

There are others, which do the same job.

Uke nagashi is a system onto itself, which needs to be studied, because it teaches practicality.


So it is not Aikido?
It seems to come from outside, maybe it's hubud lubud from kali or some other filipino martial art. Maybe thats why it seems to be somehow inconsistent with aikido's training techniques.

[observer]

Nobody who trains Aikido, has ever "killed with one blow". So how can you say that?
What about O'Sensei? Did he killed anybody during practice?
BTW. In the absence of a response about Haga Sensei, I searched the Internet and found a discussion in this forum in which I myself participated (?!).
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25117

[MRoh]

http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/interview-with-nobuyoshi-tamura-1/

[observer]

http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/interview-with-nobuyoshi-tamura-1/
Here is a part of the discussion to which I gave the link:

"Ellis Amdur, Location: Seattle
Re: Who was the naval officer?
Haha was born in 1908. He started kendo at the age of 18 (1926), one year after the 'enlightenment incident.' Per Stan Pranin, he had some kind of a 'match' with Ueshiba in 1933. "

[shizentai]

There are others, which do the same job.


I've never seen any style except Tenshin use a well-developed deflection system to allow Aikido to work at close range. Feel free to show me proof of your claims.

So it is not Aikido?

Ikkyo is also a system onto itself. Is it not Aikido?

It seems to come from outside, maybe it's hubud lubud from kali or some other filipino martial art. Maybe thats why it seems to be somehow inconsistent with aikido's training techniques.

It's perfectly consistent and connects to many Aikido techniques. You clearly have not put even a miniscule bit of effort in learning about Tenshin Aikido or its deflections, but you're quick to criticize and resist.

Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.

[RonRagusa]

Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.

Aikido is continually evolving. Were it not, there would be only 1 Aikido and clearly that is not the case. Tenshin Aikido, Ki Aikido, Kokikai Aikido and Tomiki Aikido are but a few of the very distinct "styles" that have evolved from Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron

[shizentai]

Aikido is continually evolving. Were it not, there would be only 1 Aikido and clearly that is not the case. Tenshin Aikido, Ki Aikido, Kokikai Aikido and Tomiki Aikido are but a few of the very distinct "styles" that have evolved from Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron

You just named 2 styles which are rejected by the lethargic majority of Aikido community (Tenshin & Tomiki), plus Kokikai for some reason. What's innovative about Kokikai?

[RonRagusa]

You just named 2 styles which are rejected by the lethargic majority of Aikido community (Tenshin & Tomiki), plus Kokikai for some reason. What's innovative about Kokikai?

Rejected or not they're still Aikido and they evolved from Ueshiba Aikido. The point is that your supposition that Aikido hasn't evolved is flat out wrong. You need only do a little research to verify that.

Aikido is no longer a monolithic martial art. It has evolved and morphed over the years away from the root system that was Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron

[shizentai]

Rejected or not they're still Aikido and they evolved from Ueshiba Aikido. The point is that your supposition that Aikido hasn't evolved is flat out wrong. You need only do a little research to verify that.

Aikido is no longer a monolithic martial art. It has evolved and morphed over the years away from the root system that was Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron

No amount of silly gotchas on your part will change the fact that mainstream Aikido has failed to evolve in any meaningful sense, and failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did. You can keep dancing around it all you want.

Show me any significant new technique or methodology which is new now in Aikikai or Ki Society compared to when they were founded.

[Denobudo]

its all going to depend on the sensei and what he wants his students to learn and what he him self has added for instance at my dojo they added in tai chi as well as judo because of sensei sugawara's many travelings in his martial art journey one day i hope to add ground game from my bjj and bring a complete art all in one of stand up and ground grappling and i will just say the aikido ive learned seems to work well in stand up when i do bjj my throws really seem effective keep in mind not all aikido will work on everyone esp trained martial artist that specialize in stand up grappling but having a prior judo background its almost the exact same throws minus the ground game and when i think about that not many arts these days add in ground work or effective striking i also was a kick boxer i think every art is lacking something its up to you to make the most out of every art to add in your own arsenal

[RonRagusa]

No amount of silly gotchas on your part will change the fact that mainstream Aikido has failed to evolve in any meaningful sense, and failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did. You can keep dancing around it all you want.

Show me any significant new technique or methodology which is new now in Aikikai or Ki Society compared to when they were founded.

You're now referring to "mainstream" Aikido and it's lack of evolution when before you insisted Aikido hasn't evolved. So which is it? Has "mainstream" Aikido failed to evolve in a vacuum ("Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.") while the "fringe sub-styles" have pushed the envelop out with new techniques and training methods ("failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did."); or has Aikido as a whole failed to evolve?

Ron

[shizentai]

You're now referring to "mainstream" Aikido and it's lack of evolution when before you insisted Aikido hasn't evolved. So which is it? Has "mainstream" Aikido failed to evolve in a vacuum ("Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.") while the "fringe sub-styles" have pushed the envelop out with new techniques and training methods ("failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did."); or has Aikido as a whole failed to evolve?

Ron

Sigh. You really want to keep playing dumb?

There are BJJ dojos which don't evolve, or don't even spar, or where the instructor is fraudulent. However, BJJ has a positive reputation in martial arts community because of what the bulk of it is, not because of what the fringe exceptions are. Same goes for Aikido and its reputation.

There's an exception to every rule. The rule still stands.

Please provide me evidence of evolution within Aikido as it is practiced in the vast majority of dojos around America. A single new technique introduced into Aikikai or Ki Society or Iwama or Yoshinkan for that matter, since these branches were established (even though let's face it, Yoshinkan isn't mainstream).

[MRoh]

I've never seen any style except Tenshin use a well-developed deflection system to allow Aikido to work at close range. Feel free to show me proof of your claims.


I've been working on things like that by myself, for many years.

It partly derives from sword work, and from goju ryu karate,

[MRoh]

Ikkyo is also a system onto itself. Is it not Aikido?


Ikkyo is not a System. It's a basic technique of aikido, and it does not derive from a martial art outside aikido.
The tenshin Aikido hand-deflections are not aikido from the origin, one can see clearly.
Have you seen Ueshiba doing this kind of movement?
I don't say it is wrong to practice like that, but aikido is a consistent system in itself.

[RonRagusa]

Please provide me evidence of evolution within Aikido...

Evolution:
noun - any process of formation or growth; development:

If you want to talk about the evolution of Aikido you have to go back to the beginning, the Aikido of Morihei Ueshiba. Aikikai Aikido is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tomiki is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tohei is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.The Aikido of Shioda is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.You can drill down further and see that the Aikido of the students of those students of Ueshiba is not the Aikido of either Ueshiba or their teachers... that's evolution.

Aikido is a complex, continually evolving art. You can talk about mainstream and fringe dojos but the fact remains, it's all Aikido and it's always changing.

Ron

[shizentai]

Evolution:
noun - any process of formation or growth; development:

If you want to talk about the evolution of Aikido you have to go back to the beginning, the Aikido of Morihei Ueshiba. Aikikai Aikido is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tomiki is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tohei is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.The Aikido of Shioda is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.You can drill down further and see that the Aikido of the students of those students of Ueshiba is not the Aikido of either Ueshiba or their teachers... that's evolution.

Aikido is a complex, continually evolving art. You can talk about mainstream and fringe dojos but the fact remains, it's all Aikido and it's always changing.

Ron

When you claim Aikido is a "continually evolving art" which is "always changing", you have to do better than to provide a branching point that happened decades ago. LMAO.

[shizentai]

Ikkyo is not a System. It's a basic technique of aikido, and it does not derive from a martial art outside aikido.
The tenshin Aikido hand-deflections are not aikido from the origin, one can see clearly.
Have you seen Ueshiba doing this kind of movement?
I don't say it is wrong to practice like that, but aikido is a consistent system in itself.

In Daito Ryu, ikkajo was a collection of waza, not a single technique. Calling it a single technique in Aikido is what creates much confusion about the several different ways in which it must be executed based on the energy of uke. So yeah, it's a system.

It's not the only technique I'd call a "system" in Aikido. Kotegaeshi can be done with multitude of variations as well - drawing uke outside to keep out of range of his punch, folding into his wrist/elbow/shoulder directly, or making it into more of a kokyu movement.

As for what's "Aikido from the origin", that's exactly the tunnel-vision purism I'm talking about, which stops evolution of the system.

BJJ gets new techniques every 3 months, and nobody's whining about Helio Gracie not doing those techniques. But Aikido is treated like a museum artifact frozen in amber, which keeps it perpetually out of date with modern sensibilities.

I heard that Tenshin deflections were adapted by Seagal's teacher after he had to deal with challenges from American soldiers. Whether true or not, that evolutionary path makes sense to me, because in the West, people box, and without those deflections, Aikido is very vulnerable to boxing attacks.

As for "consistency" of Aikido, that is a whole different bag of worms. O Sensei wasn't a god, and he didn't create a perfect system. Just how perfect is Aikido, if it claims to subdue people without harming them, and yet it's chock-full of Daito Ryu techniques which are only effective when you go into full rip-and-tear mode?

Try executing a nikkyo against a resisting attacker - either your gentle application won't work, or you have to snap it on fast enough to where they yelp and come this close to breaking their bones. You have to be SEVERE in real life with Aikido to make any of its techniques work, due to its tendency to not use grips to stabilize connection with uke. The connection is fleeting, so you have to pack it all into one explosive movement. Nevermind the fact that you have to use a lot of atemi.

So yeah, Aikido is a big mess of a contradiction, and it could certainly use a thoughtful evolution. From everything I've seen from Tenshin Aikido, it is by far the best candidate to go in that direction. It doesn't shy away from the speed necessary to make Aikido functional, it deals with modern attacks, and yet it maintains non-competitive and flowing nature of Aikido, keeping a balance between practical and spiritual, thus remaining unmistakably Aikido.

Unlike Realni Aikido, Tenshin is elegant and well thought-through. Every modification they made to standard Aikido, makes sense.

[RonRagusa]

When you claim Aikido is a "continually evolving art" which is "always changing", you have to do better than to provide a branching point that happened decades ago. LMAO.

Actually, I don't. It's up to you to demonstrate that your claim that Aikido it a monolithic art that doesn't change over time is correct. This you have not done. I have given you examples of Aikido's metamorphosis since the founder and you have done nothing to show otherwise.

The so called branching points that you are choosing to ignore have not been limited to the examples I provided but continue to this day as each generation of students matures and moves on to form their own systems of training. For instance, Imaizumi S, Maruyama S and Toyoda F all broke from Ki Society to formulate their own systems of training methods. Students of theirs have broken from them... and so it continues. You can LYAO all you want, makes no difference, reality is still reality.

Ron

[shizentai]

Actually, I don't. It's up to you to demonstrate that your claim that Aikido it a monolithic art that doesn't change over time is correct. This you have not done. I have given you examples of Aikido's metamorphosis since the founder and you have done nothing to show otherwise.

The so called branching points that you are choosing to ignore have not been limited to the examples I provided but continue to this day as each generation of students matures and moves on to form their own systems of training. For instance, Imaizumi S, Maruyama S and Toyoda F all broke from Ki Society to formulate their own systems of training methods. Students of theirs have broken from them... and so it continues. You can LYAO all you want, makes no difference, reality is still reality.

Ron

Twice, I challenged you to show me a single technique that was added to any of the major Aikido branches (aka the branches in which the vast majority of Aikido students train) since their founding. You've evaded this question continuously through wordplay. I accept your forfeit.

[RonRagusa]

Twice, I challenged you to show me a single technique that was added to any of the major Aikido branches (aka the branches in which the vast majority of Aikido students train) since their founding. You've evaded this question continuously through wordplay. I accept your forfeit.

And twice I have pointed out to you that the main Aikido branches are not the sum total of Aikido.

Regarding technique as a metric of Aikido evolution, in your own words: "Kotegaeshi can be done with multitude of variations as well - drawing uke outside to keep out of range of his punch, folding into his wrist/elbow/shoulder directly, or making it into more of a kokyu movement." All of the variations of kotegaeshi didn't appear at once, they evolved over time. The kotegaeshi I perform today isn't the same as the kotegaeshi I learned 42 years ago. It has changed over time as I have grown older. My students, most of who have been with me for 20 years or more are experiencing the evolution of Aikido first hand. Hopefully one or more of them will carry on my legacy when I'm gone. Others will discover new ways of doing things in Aikido, other ways of training that will be imparted to their students. And I'm just one example of a fringe practitioner whose Aikido evolves over a lifetime of training and teaching. There are many more out there like me who are on their own evolutionary Aikido paths.

Evolution of Aikido is not evidenced only by the introduction of totally new "techniques" into the core syllabus. Slow gradual change of how technique is performed, how training morphs over time and the expansion of areas of application of Aikido principles all point to an Aikido that's not static and unchanging. Your discounting the Aikido outliers as the agents of change in Aikido displays a lack of vision regarding how actual change takes place within an established discipline. It doesn't happen from the top down, it's the other way around.

Ron

[shizentai]

And twice I have pointed out to you that the main Aikido branches are not the sum total of Aikido.

Regarding technique as a metric of Aikido evolution, in your own words: "Kotegaeshi can be done with multitude of variations as well - drawing uke outside to keep out of range of his punch, folding into his wrist/elbow/shoulder directly, or making it into more of a kokyu movement." All of the variations of kotegaeshi didn't appear at once, they evolved over time. The kotegaeshi I perform today isn't the same as the kotegaeshi I learned 42 years ago. It has changed over time as I have grown older. My students, most of who have been with me for 20 years or more are experiencing the evolution of Aikido first hand. Hopefully one or more of them will carry on my legacy when I'm gone. Others will discover new ways of doing things in Aikido, other ways of training that will be imparted to their students. And I'm just one example of a fringe practitioner whose Aikido evolves over a lifetime of training and teaching. There are many more out there like me who are on their own evolutionary Aikido paths.

Evolution of Aikido is not evidenced only by the introduction of totally new "techniques" into the core syllabus. Slow gradual change of how technique is performed, how training morphs over time and the expansion of areas of application of Aikido principles all point to an Aikido that's not static and unchanging. Your discounting the Aikido outliers as the agents of change in Aikido displays a lack of vision regarding how actual change takes place within an established discipline. It doesn't happen from the top down, it's the other way around.

Ron

I'm not discounting the Aikido outliers, I value and understand some of them more than most. However, Aikido community at large has had nearly 40 years to adapt innovations from Tenshin Aikido, and it hasn't adopted a single one. Their kick/punch deflections are crucial to applicability, and they close the BIGGEST hole Aikido has - its inability to shift from weapons range to emptyhand range, dictated by its distant origins in Daito Ryu.

Uke-nagashi alone is amazing. Nobody's bothered to adopt it. Not Iwama, not Aikikai, not Ki Society, not Yoshinkan, nobody. It remains distinctly a Tenshin movement.

Aikido has gaping fatal flaws in the system which go farther than kotegaeshi variations. Innovation is supposed to serve the goal of improvement. Side-grading instead of upgrading technique, is not innovation.

What use is the multitude of variations of kotegaeshi, if you train all of them against an exaggerated anime punch? You can keep inventing more of them, but you're not innovating anything. Invention does not imply innovation.

The irony is that 100% of pure mainstream Aikido practitioners of today will have tremendous trouble dealing with an aggressive attacker who actually throws a punch, followed by another punch, rather than a lazy overhead chop followed by nothing. The one branch of the system which offered solutions, has been summarily rejected, and Steven Seagal was vilified way before his sex scandals came out - his style was vilified for simply being "too aggressive for Aikido". He was highly skilled, and so are his high-level students.

The community snubbed its noses at a system, the practitioners of which have no trouble training with regular Aikikai - but unlike the mainstream styles, they also stand a chance of defending against an aggressive attack thrown by a sober person.

40 years of stagnation and resistance ever since that opportunity has been offered. I rest my case.

[observer]

Unlike Realni Aikido, Tenshin is elegant and well thought-through.
I take your word for it that Tenshin is elegant because I can not say anything about it myself. However, I can encourage you to watch the Taigi competition at Ki Society. This is where the elegance of the sequence of techniques is judged by the judges, just like in figure skating on ice. Nay. Each pair of players is required to perform the same mandatory sequence, called Kitei Taigi and next, one of defined 31 other. All at a certain time - eg. Kitei Tagi in 110 seconds. This is how Aikido evolves today. Effectiveness has been turned into impressiveness and nothing will change it any more, in my opinion.

I am writing this because I have noticed reading my text without comprehension. How many times can one raise the fact that the art of Morihei Ueshiba only makes sense when you have both hands free. Speaking about a resisting opponent in Aikido is just an absurd. Just like associating this art with Daito-Ryu, Ju-Jitsu, etc. After all, O'Sensei did not named or codify any techniques. His disciples did this by watching the Master. He just looked at it without saying anything. This only shows the greatness of this man. What I see is that in all Aikido techniques, hands go up and down. O'Sensei was once asked about the amount of Aikido techniques. No wonder, he answered - unlimited.

Just for the record. It seems, therefore, that Morihei Ueshiba was highly recognized by his contemporary authorities, such as the creator of Judo Jigoro Kano and the president of the Japan Sumo Association Admiral Isamu Takeshita, but completely misunderstood by his students and their successors. For example, Gozo Shioda quotes the Master's words, that his art is about "to kill with a single blow" and he does not draw any conclusions from it himself. Today, it is simply questionable. However, to master this skill you need to know hard falls. It was not without reason that Ueshiba's first students had high ranks in Judo. From the memories of the Devil's Dojo we know that it was very loud in it - not from shouting after all. Also his extraordinary ability to move so as to avoid any contact, also escapes his legacy. No mention, that his confrontations with a naval officer, Haga Sensei, or reports that at the crowded railway station he was always the first to reach the train, are well documented.

[RonRagusa]

I'm not discounting the Aikido outliers, I value and understand some of them more than most. However, Aikido community at large has had nearly 40 years to adapt innovations from Tenshin Aikido, and it hasn't adopted a single one.

And yet Tenshin Aikido is Aikido. Since Tenshin Aikido is Aikido then the innovations of Tenshin are part of Aikido even though they are practiced by a minority of Aikido students. My point is that the Aikido outliers are the ones that foster change in the art. The kind of changes you want to see adopted by the greater Aikido community will never happen from the top down.

The irony is that 100% of pure mainstream Aikido practitioners of today will have tremendous trouble dealing with an aggressive attacker who actually throws a punch, followed by another punch, rather than a lazy overhead chop followed by nothing. The one branch of the system which offered solutions, has been summarily rejected, and Steven Seagal was vilified way before his sex scandals came out - his style was vilified for simply being "too aggressive for Aikido". He was highly skilled, and so are his high-level students.

Part of the appeal of Aikido is it's wide spectrum of applicability. If you want your training to be mainly of the "dealing with an aggressive attacker who actually throws a punch, followed by another punch, rather than a lazy overhead chop followed by nothing." variety then you can seek out a teacher who emphasizes just that. Will you find a dojo that teaches Aikido as a pure fighting art on every street corner? No, not because of a structural flaw in Aikido but rather most people seeking Aikido training are just plain not interested in fighting.

The community snubbed its noses at a system...

A majority of the Aikido community did just that. But the fact that systems like Tenshin Aikido (and there are others that purport to be fighting systems) continue to exist is a testament that their ideas and methods are not rejected by the Aikido community as a whole. If you are a student of Aikido then you have the opportunity to take Aikido in the direction that appeals to you. Train, teach and pass on what you know to your students. If your ideas have merit and relevance to your students then they will be passed on by your students who go on to teach.

Ron

[shizentai]

And yet Tenshin Aikido is Aikido. Since Tenshin Aikido is Aikido then the innovations of Tenshin are part of Aikido even though they are practiced by a minority of Aikido students. My point is that the Aikido outliers are the ones that foster change in the art. The kind of changes you want to see adopted by the greater Aikido community will never happen from the top down.

It doesn't happen top-down, it doesn't happen from the side, it doesn't happen from any direction whatsoever.

Part of the appeal of Aikido is it's wide spectrum of applicability. If you want your training to be mainly of the "dealing with an aggressive attacker who actually throws a punch, followed by another punch, rather than a lazy overhead chop followed by nothing." variety then you can seek out a teacher who emphasizes just that.

Dude... that's the minimal functionality required for Aikido to remain a martial art instead of a time you would better spend learning tango.

Will you find a dojo that teaches Aikido as a pure fighting art on every street corner? No, not because of a structural flaw in Aikido but rather most people seeking Aikido training are just plain not interested in fighting.

Mechanics of fighting and assault differ. I am not advocating for Aikido to become a combat system; it will always lose to combat system practitioners. However, it has to work for common self-defense situations against untrained attackers. Again, that's the minimum expected from any martial art.

Until Aikido officially divorces itself from the notion of offering self-defense ability, which is still offered, either explicitly or implicitly, on most dojo websites, I will continue to expect innovation from the system in THAT direction.

Implying that Aikido is a martial art and then scamming the students of time and money for years to come, is not only highly immoral, it also endangers them with a false sense of security.

A majority of the Aikido community did just that. But the fact that systems like Tenshin Aikido (and there are others that purport to be fighting systems) continue to exist is a testament that their ideas and methods are not rejected by the Aikido community as a whole.

"You can do it in the privacy of your own home, far away from me, and I won't reject you".

If you are a student of Aikido then you have the opportunity to take Aikido in the direction that appeals to you. Train, teach and pass on what you know to your students. If your ideas have merit and relevance to your students then they will be passed on by your students who go on to teach.Ron

Yeah, Aikido community as a whole - both students and teachers - is responsible for stagnation of the system. Perhaps this is an innate nature of this quasi-religious cult, to hang onto the unchangeable Holy Book Of Aikido. Exact reasons aside, Aikido does not evolve.

You continuously try to walk around that fact, to which I can only respond with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo78qm8k2LY

Don't tell me that "the core of this martial art is still alive". Let me tell you what I'm looking for in a f*n martial art.

[RonRagusa]

...Don't tell me that "the core of this martial art is still alive". Let me tell you what I'm looking for in a f*n martial art.

Yeah, well... ok. We're done here.

Ron

[shizentai]

Yeah, well... ok. We're done here.

Ron

Figured you'd jump on a chance to leave the losing side of this exchange on some kind of high moral ground, even if it takes feigning outrage at a comedy video. If your Aikido isn't good enough for self-defense and it also can't tame your giant ego, what exactly are you practicing for?

[MRoh]

In Daito Ryu, ikkajo was a collection of waza, not a single technique.

I know that, but Ikkajo is not Ikkyo, and it is not a collection of variations from the same technique.
You have there Ippon dori, where Ikkyo from, but also kotegaeshi and others.
Ikkajo is the first part of the hiden mokuroku, and this you can call a system, if you want.

I heard that Tenshin deflections were adapted by Seagal's teacher after he had to deal with challenges from American soldiers. Whether true or not, that evolutionary path makes sense to me, because in the West, people box, and without those deflections, Aikido is very vulnerable to boxing attacks.

You know the story of the match between Ueshia and the famous boxer "the piston" Tsuneo Horiguchi? Ueshiba broke his arms, without knowing about tenshins hand deflections.
Again, I have nothing against this method, but I don't think its the best or the only one,
I saw the techniques of Steven seagal, and what I saw was normal Aikido.

[MrIggy]

I do not think this is neccessary, there is enough evidence to show Ueshibas thoughts about fighting.

And all that evidence points to the contrary of what you and many like you think it does.

[MrIggy]

What is a "trained fighter"?
And why do you say then that "people are claiming to teach a martial art with which none of them can actually fight"?

Again, dude please, are we seriously going to have this conversation? You know very well what a trained fighter is, and I wrote the other part because none of them can actually vouch for what they teach from their own experience or at least on some empirical level. It's mostly monkey see/monkey do, without monkey knowing what and why to do it in the first place or more importantly is there any better way of doing it.

On one side there are lots of people who can defeat trained fighters (whatever that means), and on the other side there is no one who can fight?

On one side there are more than a couple that can defeat trained fighters and it didn't take them 20 years to learn that and the other side there's a myriad of people who can't fight and yet claim to teach a martial art. Does this give a clearer picture?

[MRoh]

And all that evidence points to the contrary of what you and many like you think it does.

I think Ueshiba was totally against fightingin in his late years.
that does not mean that you are not allowed to fight, you can do what you want, and selfdefence is a completily different thing.

[MRoh]

On one side there are more than...

then please could you provide evidence for your assertion?
Who are this guys, and who are the "trained fighter", and in which tournament were they defeated?
I know there were some fighters amongst Ueshibas students, but at the moment I don't see anyone in Aikido who can state he defeated (by using what he learned in Aikido) any well trained MMA guy or someone who has a name as a fighter.
I don't mean sparrring a bit with the friend from the karate-club, and doing some wristlock on him, I can do that myself.

[Denobudo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido_styles most forget the yosikan style or the shoto kan or even how some aikikia styles https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=562&v=YDgxhMS0los its allon the teacher and style

[shizentai]

I know that, but Ikkajo is not Ikkyo, and it is not a collection of variations from the same technique.
You have there Ippon dori, where Ikkyo from, but also kotegaeshi and others.
Ikkajo is the first part of the hiden mokuroku, and this you can call a system, if you want.

Ikkyo is very much a collection of movements which differ from each other a great deal, if you actually want to have martial viability.

You know the story of the match between Ueshia and the famous boxer "the piston" Tsuneo Horiguchi? Ueshiba broke his arms, without knowing about tenshins hand deflections.

Spoken like a typical Aikido practitioner who's never tried sparring with a boxer. But it's okay because "your daddy can beat him up".

Again, I have nothing against this method, but I don't think its the best or the only one,
I saw the techniques of Steven seagal, and what I saw was normal Aikido.

Show me a better method which has been integrated into Aikido when it comes to dealing with shorter-than-weapons distance attacks, such as retractable punch combos.

[MRoh]

Ikkyo is very much a collection of movements which differ from each other a great deal, if you actually want to have martial viability.


It seems you don't know very much about the hiden mokuroku.
It's a system of basic kata movements, standing and seating positions, and different ways of receiving attacks


Spoken like a typical Aikido practitioner who's never tried sparring with a boxer. But it's okay because "your daddy can beat him up".


You were talking about people, who can defeat trained fighters....Big brother?


Show me a better method which has been integrated into Aikido when it comes to dealing with shorter-than-weapons distance attacks, such as retractable punch combos.


Which distance is shorter then a knife attack with a hidden weapon?
If you are in a situation where you have to deal with combos, you failed already.
But ok, if you are in, you have to deal with it.
But it is not neccessary to integrate other methods, its already inside.
I understood that, the more I studied other methods, but you have to understand.

[Denobudo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vqfhb93ucg here is a style i am cross training in some good videos to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDgxhMS0los https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1083&v=4f2vjSNa22k

[Bernd Lehnen]

Wonder of wonders.
A martial art that was founded by a religious man, who said his art was not about fighting and who did not teach how to fight, but how to train ones body, or rather body mechanics based on a taoist cosmology.
An art that has no practice mode that trains fighting strategy and no competitions in which on could test fighting abilities.
An art that is practiced in dojos, that are places of harmony and often have an atmosphere like wellness-areas, not like combat schools .
You can take what you got from Aikido and go to some place where fighting is trained, there you learn how to fight.

He may have been a religious man, but his words can rightly be interpreted as though in fact he had taught an ancient yogic way how to train ones body. Obviously most didn't get this, because his wordings seemed so religious to them. They couldn't get to this context because they didn't make the needed connections. Up to this day, not many do.

Evidently, relying to these techniques in a fight would be the stupidest thing to do.

By the way, Abe Tadashi (co-authored Jean Zinn) wrote two books about aikido in French, with a recommendation intro of Ueshiba Kisshomaru (then "waka sensei"). The organization of techniques is done according to five families (basic principles): ik kajo , ni kajo, san kajo , yon kajo aka "pain and vital points" and go kajo aka overflow- , underflow- respectively circling- operations (irimi) This type of organization can be found in the Daito ryu school from which Aikido is derived and should in my opinion be understood as representing the teaching of "o sensei" Ueshiba pre-1952 (date of the arrival of Tadashi Abe in France).

Best,
Bernd

[Denobudo]

why are my post not showing up

[Denobudo]

Aikido works just fine esp yoseikan style they have added in karate and ground game from kosen judo http://www.popflock.com/learn?s=Yoseikan_Aikido check that link out yosikan and tenshin and aikikia in some cases are all evolving styles given the right actual sensei and student

[Denobudo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA-DgrumDBE

[MRoh]

This type of organization can be found in the Daito ryu school from which Aikido is derived

No, Abe's System is completely different from the daito-ryu hiden mokuroku.
Tadashi Abe's ikkajo contains Ikkyo from different forms of attack, and shihonage (omoto and ura).
Nikajo has nikyo and kote-gaeshi.

The ikkajo from daito-ryu's hiden mokuroku contains 30 techniques (not only ikkyo and shihonage, and they are executed from seating and Standing position), as well as nikajo and sankajo, yonkajo has 15 and gokaju has 13 techniques .
Thats only the basics.
After that there are techniques from aiki no jutsu, hiden ogi, goshin'yo no te, kaishaku soden and menkyo kaiden.
Thats the main line system, others differ, but the hiden mokuroku is almost the same in every line I think.

[Bernd Lehnen]

No, Abe's System is completely different from the daito-ryu hiden mokuroku.
Tadashi Abe's ikkajo contains Ikkyo from different forms of attack, and shihonage (omoto and ura).
Nikajo has nikyo and kote-gaeshi.

The ikkajo from daito-ryu's hiden mokuroku contains 30 techniques (not only ikkyo and shihonage, and they are executed from seating and Standing position), as well as nikajo and sankajo, yonkajo has 15 and gokaju has 13 techniques .
Thats only the basics.
After that there are techniques from aiki no jutsu, hiden ogi, goshin'yo no te, kaishaku soden and menkyo kaiden.
Thats the main line system, others differ, but the hiden mokuroku is almost the same in every line I think.

That's because he very probably took into account Kawaishi Mikinosuke's experience and personal advice and tried to make it a paradigm more compatible to the thinking and working of the western mind. Actually, in a limited perspective like yours he didn't even go any further than starting with ik kajo and scratching a bit at nik kajo.
But all this doesn't change the gist of what I said.

I don't perceive o sensei as a peacenik, quite the contrary, but I support what you yourself wondered about in the original posting of yours I cited, because, decades ago, my teacher and I were pondering quite intensively about the same kind of questions, privately together deep into the night. I suppose you didnt intend it only as an ironic rhetorical figure.

Aikido is a wonderful modern art in itself and has value of its own, but aiki-do is something else we'd have to make a real effort for in an absolutely different way, where we'd have to think completely out of the box. Obviously very few have made the effort and then also been lucky enough to get to this. Could be, o sensei Ueshiba was one of them.

Best,
Bernd

[MRoh]

decades ago, my teacher and I were pondering quite intensively about the same kind of questions, privately together deep into the night.

Like more then one generation of aikidoka did, an do now, and still always the same discussions arise.

But after thinking about it for many years, searching for the fighting and self defence values of Aikido, I have come to the conclusion that it was not O Senseis intention to build fighters, but to teach a way for the develepment of humankind.
Everybody can use Aikido techniques for fighting if he wishes to do so, and train himself to make it work, But, like my (and your former) teacher always says, destroying people is the easiest thing, but it is not what we want to do, you know that.

[Walter Martindale]

Wow... at this pace we'll be at 3000 posts in this thread in no time. I wonder how many times in the preceding 2094 posts many of the current arguments have been put forward.
My apologies for extending the run.

[Denobudo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImZ9lMX-8y8 WHILE IT IS TRUE I THINK AIKIDO IN MANY FORMS CAN BE USED FOR FIGHTING THE FOUNDERS POINT WAS NOT TO EVER FIGHT UNLESS YOU REALLY HAD TO AND THEN YOU SURELY CAN USE AIKIDO BJUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO REALIZE HE HAS BEEN DEAD A LONG TIME AND THERE ARE OVER 12 STYLES OF AIKIDO MAYBE MORE AND I WOULD SAY AT LEAST 4 OF THEM ARE TRAINING MORE REALISTICALLY THEN MAYBE THE LATE FOUNDERS WAYS BUT LETS NOT FORGET THE SAMURAI STYLES HE ADDED FOR WEAPONRY SO MAYBE HE WAS ALL PEACE AND JOY TYPE OF GUY LOL HERE IS A GOOD VIDEO of some good aikido moves and different styles and some the science behind the moves good video this guy thought aikido was a joke at first as he does many arts as he is a k1 champion to but learned the art is more about self preservation then anything and he really respected it after he breaks down alot arts i do enjoy his videos on tma/s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImZ9lMX-8y8

[shizentai]

It seems you don't know very much about the hiden mokuroku.
It's a system of basic kata movements, standing and seating positions, and different ways of receiving attacks

I don't care very much about hiden mokuroku. The Ikkyo which is present in modern Aikido, is a collection of techniques without explicit names.

You were talking about people, who can defeat trained fighters....

No. I was talking about people in the West who throw boxing attacks. Many people will do that with zero training whatsoever, wrong footwork and timing, and STILL destroy your typical pure Aikidoka.

Which distance is shorter then a knife attack with a hidden weapon?

What... are you talking about...

If you are in a situation where you have to deal with combos, you failed already.

Ok, let's go with this concept - "Aikido is not supposed to deal with emptyhand fighting range, it's either about staying out of range and drawing out the attacker, or explosive entry".

The problem is, mainstream Aikido does not teach entry. Irimi nage is not real. The closest realistic entry that can be adopted into Aikido, which uses irimi nage principles, is "armdrag into RNC", which can be changed into "armdrag into irimi nage". The armdrag grip is taught as part of "mune tsuki kokyunage", but it's not taught in a way necessary for entry.

So, by default Aikido does not teach entry. It only teaches you to retreat. This is an direly insufficient toolset.

But ok, if you are in, you have to deal with it.

Using what.

But it is not neccessary to integrate other methods, its already inside. I understood that, the more I studied other methods, but you have to understand.

I do not. You sound like a typical Aikidoka who is afraid of enhancing the system.

[shizentai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA-DgrumDBE

Tomiki practitioners are more athletic and have better timing than mainstream Aikido ones. But then again, so do ballet dancers and football players. Tomiki randori teaches highly questionable and potentially dangerous-to-self skills, such as how to get stabbed 5 times while trying to get an ippon.

[Bernd Lehnen]

Like more then one generation of aikidoka did, an do now, and still always the same discussions arise.

But after thinking about it for many years, searching for the fighting and self defence values of Aikido, I have come to the conclusion that it was not O Senseis intention to build fighters, but to teach a way for the develepment of humankind.
Everybody can use Aikido techniques for fighting if he wishes to do so, and train himself to make it work, But, like my (and your former) teacher always says, destroying people is the easiest thing, but it is not what we want to do, you know that.

Yes.
We were still young, you know.
And then we somehow agreed, that in order to be able to make this choice, we had to become strong. Physically and spiritually. So, through the practice of aikido, we literally were to forge our body and mind after the ideal of the „life saving sword", sharp and made of cold, flexibel, unbreakable steel, which we then could let rest in its scabbard. In short, forging and living our better self.

And if this was aikido's final „raison d'être", there was no urge that its techniques should be useful in a fight, that wouldn't occur, that we wouldn't let happen. They only had effectively to serve this one and only purpose.

Per se not a bad proposition and perhaps a valuable complement to the title of the thread.

Best,
Bernd

[Mary Eastland]

I"ll bring the shovel...can we bury this thread yet?

[dps]

I"ll bring the shovel...can we bury this thread yet?

8 years and 3 months. You need to shoot it with a silver bullet, drive a stake through its heart, string garlic over its body, chop off its head, burn it in a huge fire, put the ashes in a missile and shoot it into the sun.

dps

[shizentai]

This thread will be here in 20 years. If it's deleted, there will be a new thread on similar topic. If its presence irritates you, feel free to not read it.

[Mary Eastland]

Thank you, David. I see now that the shovel was simply not adequate.

[Denobudo]

look there are three or four real schools that added in judo and karate and other arts since the founder passed id say them styles that are evloving still are yoseikan tenshin shotokan and some aikikia that train tomiki and other arts added schools and also a art that stems from aikido is hopkido now ive done wrestling kickboxing and some judo and curently do bjj and aikido and can tell you its all about who teaches it check this video out of yoseikan aikido-budo https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=936&v=YDgxhMS0los and here it is being i used by current one fc champion here is what happens when u dont roll out of a wrist lock lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=61&v=E5vTigEoBnk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hoeb7sBqRc

[Walter Martindale]

8 years and 3 months. You need to shoot it with a silver bullet, drive a stake through its heart, string garlic over its body, chop off its head, burn it in a huge fire, put the ashes in a missile and shoot it into the sun.

dps

19years? A new generation.

[MRoh]

I don't care very much about hiden mokuroku. The Ikkyo which is present in modern Aikido, is a collection of techniques without explicit names.

No,it derived from ippon dori. Thats one technique of the hiden mokurokus ikkajo.

No. I was talking about people in the West who throw boxing attacks.

I you are afraid of boxing attacks, go and study them.

So, by default Aikido does not teach entry. It only teaches you to retreat.

Hm, our Aikido does, I don't know what you learned.
But like I said, if yo want to learn to deal with boxing attacks,you have to study boxing,
It never can be a mistake to study boxing and wrestling to understand the Basics of western arts.


You sound like a typical Aikidoka who is afraid of enhancing the system.

No, the system is good enough, it is designed for a special purpose,
If you want to change the purpose, you have to change the system completely, not add some hand deflection and then do normal kote-gaeshi, thats not a fighting technique.
If you want a fighting system, you have to change more then this.

[MrIggy]

I think Ueshiba was totally against fightingin in his late years.
that does not mean that you are not allowed to fight, you can do what you want, and selfdefence is a completily different thing.

And the evidence says otherwise.

[MrIggy]

then please could you provide evidence for your assertion?
Who are this guys, and who are the "trained fighter", and in which tournament were they defeated?
I know there were some fighters amongst Ueshibas students, but at the moment I don't see anyone in Aikido who can state he defeated (by using what he learned in Aikido) any well trained MMA guy or someone who has a name as a fighter.
I don't mean sparrring a bit with the friend from the karate-club, and doing some wristlock on him, I can do that myself.

Guys who mostly did jobs as bouncers and many of their "guests" were people who trained in local kickboxing and other types of fighting gyms. No tournament fighting. You don't have to compete in tournaments to be acknowledged as a trained fighter, but if amateur tournaments there were "guests" from that realm as well.
You do understand that technically speaking Aikido doesn't have "wristlocks" right? Also which Karate are you talking about? Shotokan or some other sport type Karate dojo, there are a bunch of them everywhere but I don't know any of them that you could just come in and "do a wristlock" on one of their trainees, you would get smacked a couple of times before that would happen. However this also depends on the type of training they do and it it's similar to the Aikido training of "not fighting" I can understand how you can pull that of.

[MrIggy]

I"ll bring the shovel...can we bury this thread yet?

Why would you want to do anything with this thread in the first place?! You found your place under the "Aikido sun", go do what you like to do and leave the rest of the people who want to raise several crucial issues here to do their part in the Aikido conundrum. Seriously, if you have a problem with this thread just leave it be.

[MRoh]

You do understand that technically speaking Aikido doesn't have "wristlocks" right?


I don't what you call nikyo for example, I call it a wristlock.


Also which Karate are you talking about? Shotokan or some other sport type Karate dojo, there are a bunch of them everywhere but I don't know any of them that you could just come in and "do a wristlock" on one of their trainees, you would get smacked a couple of times before that would happen.

I'm talking about any Karateka, who you could train with.
I myself trained Goju ryû Karate for some years, so I know what would happen or not.
But at the moment I don't understand what you want to tell me.

[shizentai]

I you are afraid of boxing attacks, go and study them.

This is a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Hm, our Aikido does, I don't know what you learned.

Another No True Scotsman fallacy. Either you only "think" your irimi works (like most of Aikido community), or you train practical irimi which makes you a tiny fringe minority in the Aikido community, rendering your argument irrelevant.

But like I said, if yo want to learn to deal with boxing attacks,you have to study boxing,
It never can be a mistake to study boxing and wrestling to understand the Basics of western arts.

I'm talking about Aikido as a whole, and you're continuously pretending that the universal shortcomings of the system are just my anecdotal shortcomings. No True Scotsman strikes again :rolleyes:

No, the system is good enough, it is designed for a special purpose,
If you want to change the purpose, you have to change the system completely, not add some hand deflection and then do normal kote-gaeshi, thats not a fighting technique.
If you want a fighting system, you have to change more then this.

Your argument is all over the place. At one point your irimi "works", and then Aikido is not supposed to work :confused:

As for fighting systems, I don't want Aikido to be one. I want it to have the minimal required tools so that its practitioners aren't just wasting their time learning a dancing form which is not usable in a ballroom, and not usable in a night club, either.

You're wrong about both deflections and kotegaeshi. I used the former IRL against grown males trying to punch me in the face, and kotegaeshi sometimes works for me as a grappling takedown against people who actively resist. You can see Dan The Wolfman on Youtube also use kotegaeshi in grappling context.

Usability of Aikido can be greatly enhanced without breaking the system's existing structure or spirit. Aikido is not MMA, nor it should be. However, some teachers in Aikido community believe it is their duty to equip their students with at least SOME self-defense skills. Aikido as a whole either needs to wake up and take this direction, or stop advertising itself, either implicitly or explicitly, as a self-defense system to many prospective students.

Which, no mistake, it does to this day, on many dojo's websites. It is borderline criminal.

[observer]

Which, no mistake, it does to this day, on many dojo's websites. It is borderline criminal.Invite anyone from the street to Aikido dojo where classes are going and ask what these people are doing there. I think that without a moment's thought you will get the answer that they are practicing self-defense. After all, one attacks and the other defends itself against this attack. That's the reality. Another thing is that even after dozens of years of such training, none of them is able to defend themselves against a determined aggressive attacker on the street. I know why, but is it obvious to others? Simply, there is no training to avoid an attack in this class.

[MrIggy]

I don't what you call nikyo for example, I call it a wristlock.

Nikkyo, be it omote or ura, just like Ikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo. Gokyo and Rokkyo are all essentially shoulder pins not wristlocks.

I'm talking about any Karateka, who you could train with.
I myself trained Goju ryû Karate for some years, so I know what would happen or not.
But at the moment I don't understand what you want to tell me.

So even a Kyokushinkai, Ashihara or Uechi ryu karateka?

[MRoh]

Nikkyo, be it omote or ura, just like Ikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo. Gokyo and Rokkyo are all essentially shoulder pins not wristlocks.


That's what happens on the ground, a shoulder pin..
Nikyo is working on the wrist, on the elbow and the shoulder, it's what people from other martial arts call a z-lock, or sometimes s-lock.
Techniques which produce pressure or a torsion on the wrists, in deifferent angles, ar usually called wristlocks.
Don't want to argue about that.

So even a Kyokushinkai, Ashihara or Uechi ryu Karateka?

What does the style say about the man or woman? I've seen very bad kyukushinkai, and very good shotokan peoeple.
A gyu with whom I was sparring, who mainly does fulll-contact training, tried a kotegaeshi on me!
That was funny, because it was ueseless, but that shows that even people like him use wristlocks in fights.

[MRoh]

Your argument is all over the place. At one point your irimi "works", and then Aikido is not supposed to work :confused:


Supposed to work, yes, but it's not the wish to make it work, that makes it work...

It's just that chaniging of the mind, what Aikido represents.

I never said, the techniques don't work, or Aikido doesn't work, but it's not designed to fullfill wishes of people who want to be strong in fights, thats a difference.

You're wrong about both deflections and kotegaeshi. I used the former IRL against grown males trying to punch me in the face, and kotegaeshi sometimes works for me as a grappling takedown against people who actively resist. You can see Dan The Wolfman on Youtube also use kotegaeshi in grappling context

In such context people normally do it using force, not technique., Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
It's not Aiki what makes it work, it's the wish to dominate, or to whin a fight. That's not Aikido.

However, some teachers in Aikido community believe it is their duty to equip their students with at least SOME self-defense skills.

That's what I believe too.

[MrIggy]

That's what happens on the ground, a shoulder pin..

It's not "what happens on the ground" , it's the actual conclusion of the technique. Just because it starts in the wrist, or more precisely on the forearm, it doesn't mean that it's the actual point of the technique.

Nikyo is working on the wrist, on the elbow and the shoulder, it's what people from other martial arts call a z-lock, or sometimes s-lock.

Thus proving my previous point. Never heard of those "new" names, must be some super combative systems or just some "hapkido" guys using it for easier teaching.

Techniques which produce pressure or a torsion on the wrists, in deifferent angles, ar usually called wristlocks.


For it to be a "lock" it demands a fixation in place and restriction of movement. You don't have that in nikkyo until you get uke in the shoulder pin.

What does the style say about the man or woman? I've seen very bad kyukushinkai, and very good shotokan peoeple.
A gyu with whom I was sparring, who mainly does fulll-contact training, tried a kotegaeshi on me!
That was funny, because it was ueseless, but that shows that even people like him use wristlocks in fights.

It says allot actually, in general Shotokan people don't do hard body punches or kicks so they tend to be easy targets for full contact strikers. It's been seen over and over again. Even if they practice fullcontact it's usually very low level. That's why they tend to add bits and pieces from arts such as Aikido so they could learn some "easy moves" that would give them an edge and it usually ends up like the scenario you described. I've seen the bad kyokushinkai you mentioned but bad in terms of technique and cardio and some other bits, not so much bad you could "just do a writslock on". Again pointing out that especially kotegaeshi isn't a wristlock

[mathewjgano]

Nikkyo, be it omote or ura, just like Ikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo. Gokyo and Rokkyo are all essentially shoulder pins not wristlocks.


Not saying I can do it well enough in any given situation, and probably I don't understand well enough what you mean, but my take is that all of these are "center" pins. Nikkyo, for example, might break the wrist, but still leave the center alone, causing other problems, yes?

[Denobudo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kabIv7OxHY aikido for bjj or more ground grappling cool video aikidokas should study aikido can beat a normal guy any day in the street but when compared to other martial arts it ussally falls short to the muy tias and kick boxers and western boxers and no gi grapplers

[Denobudo]

another good video more stand up and more realistic views i think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RLNu8ztiVE

[MRoh]

For it to be a "lock" it demands a fixation in place and restriction of movement. You don't have that in nikkyo until you get uke in the shoulder pin.


In every style I know techniques like this are rerferred to as wristlocks. You can call them shoulder pins if you want, I don't care, but you have it in Jujutsu, in chin'na, in hapkido, and yes, in modern combat styles also.
The term "lock" does not mean that you fix somebody in a special position, it means that you lock the joint, and restrict ist freedom of movement. You build a chain of locks from the wrist over the elbow to the shoulder and so you control your opponent, bring him on the ground, pin him there, or what you want.
So you shouldn't call it a shoulder pin, originally it was made for taking heads.

[MRoh]

Never heard of those "new" names, must be some super combative systems or just some "hapkido" guys using it for easier teaching.


By the way, the terms ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo were created for easier teaching, it just means 1st teaching, 2nd teaching,3rd teaching,4th teaching, that's why Aikido must be one of these new super combative systems.

Before that we had names like ude osae, kote hineri, kote mawashi, etc (one of the retained names is kote-gaeshi).
In another styles it's for example hon gyaku, omote gyaku, ura gyaku, and so on.

[MrIggy]

In every style I know techniques like this are rerferred to as wristlocks. You can call them shoulder pins if you want, I don't care, but you have it in Jujutsu, in chin'na, in hapkido, and yes, in modern combat styles also.

Which "Jujutsu", which "chin'na" (there's a myriad of stuff out there people call "chin'na" and it looks exactly like basic Aikido, Judo or some other ripoff with their own "inventions") which hapkido? Kote gaeshi for instance doesn't even translate from Japanese as "wristlock".

The term "lock" does not mean that you fix somebody in a special position, it means that you lock the joint, and restrict ist freedom of movement.

And what I wrote was: "For it to be a "lock" it demands a fixation in place and restriction of movement.", and that goes for both the person and the joint itself.
however you don't actually achieve any of this in Nikkyo or Kotegaeshi for instance. You don't actually lock the joint in place or any of that until you get to the shoulder pin.

You build a chain of locks from the wrist over the elbow to the shoulder and so you control your opponent, bring him on the ground, pin him there, or what you want.

You don't lock the joints, you entwine them until you get to the shoulder. The joints themselves can still move again until you pin the shoulder, why do you think you can do ukemi (be it yoko or ushiro) from kotegaeshi for instance? You can't do that from jujigatame (cross arm lock) for instance.

So you shouldn't call it a shoulder pin, originally it was made for taking heads.

Originally nobody really knows what was it made for. The inside-the-dojo school version is not for taking heads.

[MrIggy]

By the way, the terms ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo were created for easier teaching, it just means 1st teaching, 2nd teaching,3rd teaching,4th teaching, that's why Aikido must be one of these new super combative systems.

Yeah, and they come from Ikajo, Nikajo, Yonkajo etc. Yoshinkan still has those terms. I haven't heard of a,b,c "locks" in Aikido yet.

Before that we had names like ude osae, kote hineri, kote mawashi, etc (one of the retained names is kote-gaeshi).
In another styles it's for example hon gyaku, omote gyaku, ura gyaku, and so on.

And Tomiki still has those names...

[shizentai]

Sorry Igor, but nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, are wrist locks. They may be other things too, but I have used them as wrist locks. Kotegaeshi can be applied against a resisting opponent (at least in grappling context where they don't punch you in the face), by folding their wrist into their chest and "locking" it this way. Nikkyo needs to be applied very fast to disallow opponent's repositioning, and I'd call it more of a "wrist break", because it jumps from "completely useless" to "risking a wrist break" very fast, with no wiggle room in-between. It is very much a wristlock though, as you briefly get the wrist locked. Sankyo is really self-explanatory.

Shihonage is not a wristlock, it's more of a shoulder lock.

[MrIggy]

Sorry Igor, but nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, are wrist locks. They may be other things too, but I have used them as wrist locks. Kotegaeshi can be applied against a resisting opponent (at least in grappling context where they don't punch you in the face), by folding their wrist into their chest and "locking" it this way. Nikkyo needs to be applied very fast to disallow opponent's repositioning, and I'd call it more of a "wrist break", because it jumps from "completely useless" to "risking a wrist break" very fast, with no wiggle room in-between. It is very much a wristlock though, as you briefly get the wrist locked. Sankyo is really self-explanatory.

Shihonage is not a wristlock, it's more of a shoulder lock.

There is no such thing as a "briefly locked joint" you either lock it or you don't. And you can do ukemi from that kotegaeshi position you mentioned as well, the point is the other person simply isn't trained to take proper ukemi.

[MRoh]

Which "Jujutsu", which "chin'na" (there's a myriad of stuff out there people call "chin'na" and it looks exactly like basic Aikido, Judo or some other ripoff with their own "inventions") which hapkido? Kote gaeshi for instance doesn't even translate from Japanese as "wristlock

What you mean "which"? You know there are nearly ther same basic techniques in each jujutsu, chin'na or whatever, daito ryu has some very special variations. The common ground is, people call techniques like nikyo or sankyo wristlocks, everywhere you go.
And of course "wristlock" is no translation of any technique. One term you can use is kansetsu waza.
There are also gatame waza, and osae waza.

You don't lock the joints, you entwine them until you get to the shoulder. The joints themselves can still move again until you pin the shoulder, why do you think you can do ukemi (be it yoko or ushiro) from kotegaeshi for instance?

You can do ukemi if tori gives you that freedom. In real techniques there normally is no ukemi, it's not possible to jump out or something like that.

You don't actually lock the joint in place

Of course you can do that. there are several possibilities.

Yeah, and they come from Ikajo, Nikajo, Yonkajo etc. Yoshinkan still has those terms. I haven't heard of a,b,c "locks" in Aikido yet.


Z-lock referres to the shape in which you bring the arm. It you could do the complete alphabet, that would be great.

I told you before, hiden mokuroku is a different system, it's much more then ikkyo nikyo sankyo.
but It also means first group, second group, third group. Ikkyo nikyo and sankyo are single techniques, just variations taken from a system, that has a totally different structure, then the systematization Aikido has. So it doesn't come from there, but just counting is a common method, also sword techniques are named as ipponme,,nihonme, sanbonme and so on, ist the same.

[Bernd Lehnen]

This is a quite substantial discussion, imho.

https://youtu.be/BSPl_JbNTYU

The moment you set up a sportive duelling competition, you have to introduce rules that lessen to some extent any relatively complete art by specializing and stressing only selected aspects, that can be very demanding and a lot of fun, nevertheless. Like in modern fencing competitions, where you have in principle to stay in a line and only forward - backward movements but no grappling, throwing , hits with the butt-end of the weapon, kicking or clinching may be allowed.

Best,
Bernd

[Mary Eastland]

When one speaks of technique such as nikkyo or sankyo as people in this discussion seems to be...you are speaking of making it work. How do we measure work?

To use technique as a means of hurting someone in a frivolous fight to me is not Aikido. Aikido is a system of techniques and movements to create change within one's self. (to me)

Yes, people train in the arts for different reasons. The question that comes to my mind is why try to force Aikido into a category that it is just not in.

If one wants to fight, fine. Take what you like from the techniques taught in aikido but finding fault with an art as other people see it is not helpful to you. Nor is it effective.

[Denobudo]

I would say technically a lock is just securing a area the fallow threw would be a submission or a break or a passed out ko just like a head lock

[MrIggy]

What you mean "which"? You know there are nearly ther same basic techniques in each jujutsu, chin'na or whatever, daito ryu has some very special variations. The common ground is, people call techniques like nikyo or sankyo wristlocks, everywhere you go.
And of course "wristlock" is no translation of any technique. One term you can use is kansetsu waza.
There are also gatame waza, and osae waza.

No, there are not. That's why I asked "which" as in taught by whom? What do you mean by "each jujutsu"!? Jujutsu is a general term for grappling techniques or to be more precise a concept of fighting with those techniques, various schools had different grappling techniques so to which school are you actually referring to? No, they don't call them "wristlocks" everywhere, Mike Jones from the NY Aikaki call is it "wrist twist" in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll1GCzl4Bxg which makes more sense than "wristlock" . We don't call them "wristlocks" in my country for instance.

You can do ukemi if tori gives you that freedom. In real techniques there normally is no ukemi, it's not possible to jump out or something like that.

You do realize that yoko and ushiro ukemi aren't "jumping" maneuvers right? Especially ushiro ukemi.

Z-lock referres to the shape in which you bring the arm. It you could do the complete alphabet, that would be great.

And it's not even in the shape of a Z.

I told you before, hiden mokuroku is a different system, it's much more then ikkyo nikyo sankyo.
but It also means first group, second group, third group. Ikkyo nikyo and sankyo are single techniques, just variations taken from a system, that has a totally different structure, then the systematization Aikido has. So it doesn't come from there, but just counting is a common method, also sword techniques are named as ipponme,,nihonme, sanbonme and so on, ist the same.

The terms Ikkyo, nikkyo etc are based on the terms Ikajo, nikajo, etc yes it's used for single techniques but represents teachings concerning those techniques. And you do realize that Yoshinkan still has those terms?

[MrIggy]

When one speaks of technique such as nikkyo or sankyo as people in this discussion seems to be...you are speaking of making it work. How do we measure work?

To use technique as a means of hurting someone in a frivolous fight to me is not Aikido. Aikido is a system of techniques and movements to create change within one's self. (to me)

Yes, people train in the arts for different reasons. The question that comes to my mind is why try to force Aikido into a category that it is just not in.

If one wants to fight, fine. Take what you like from the techniques taught in aikido but finding fault with an art as other people see it is not helpful to you. Nor is it effective.

Then again I ask, why are you still posting here?

[RonRagusa]

Then again I ask, why are you still posting here?

Because it's not up to you to determine who can and cannot post here. Everyone here has the same right to voice their opinions. You don't like what she has to say then avail yourself of the block poster feature.

[shizentai]

There is no such thing as a "briefly locked joint" you either lock it or you don't.

Imagine a fencing duel. Man #2 manages to deflect man #1's rapier, and advances forward with his rapier.

Version #1: Man #2 presses tip of rapier against man #1's chest, exclaims, "A-ha, I got you trapped now!" and then pushes it through. You say, "that's ridiculous, man #2 can just run away instead!" And you're RIGHT.

Version #2: Man #2 immediately pushes rapier through man #1's chest. You say "that's impossible, he didn't immobilize him!"

But HE DID. He immobilized him BRIEFLY, by controlling his choices, and creating that opening in timing which allowed him to push the rapier through without man #2 having TIME to react and counter it. Even though he technically "had plenty of space".

Similarly, if I can create a situation where I can "push a nikkyo through", I'm not going to lock it, bring someone down, and then decide if I want to break their wrist. There's an opportunity to just break their wrist. There's a moment in time when it's locked, because they have no time (and/or space) to unlock it.

For example if we're sitting and someone tries to grab my collar or sleeve, if I manage to get the timing just right, I can catch them in a classic nikkyo, securing their hand on top of my forearm, and crank it. If I pause there, they'll just withdraw their arm, because my hold on their hand is bullshit. It only holds them for fraction of a second, slowing down their escape enough for me to crank the nikkyo. Hence... "briefly locked".

And you can do ukemi from that kotegaeshi position you mentioned as well, the point is the other person simply isn't trained to take proper ukemi.

Ukemi isn't an escape. It is an acknowledgement of loss. In training we reset shortly after uke takes ukemi. In reality, if I successfully apply Aikido technique, you will either take damage from the technique, or you escape (ukemi) to an even worse position which opens you to taking more damage.

[Mary Eastland]

Imagine a tiny person trying to employ kotegaeshi on a large person with big strong wrists. If the tiny person tries to do the technique just employing the mechanics it probably will not work. However, if the tiny person throws with kotegaeshi because it arose organically though the experience chances are the outcome would be favorable.

The tiny person in the second example is using Aikido not just a particular technique for a particular attack.

[MrIggy]

Version #2: Man #2 immediately pushes rapier through man #1's chest. You say "that's impossible, he didn't immobilize him!"

He doesn't have to immobilize him. That's not the point in fencing at all.

For example if we're sitting and someone tries to grab my collar or sleeve, if I manage to get the timing just right, I can catch them in a classic nikkyo, securing their hand on top of my forearm, and crank it. If I pause there, they'll just withdraw their arm, because my hold on their hand is bullshit. It only holds them for fraction of a second, slowing down their escape enough for me to crank the nikkyo. Hence... "briefly locked".

Or he could just go in through the pain and knock you over without you actually accomplishing anything in the process unlike in the fencing scenario where fencer #1 would impale himself.

Ukemi isn't an escape. It is an acknowledgement of loss. In training we reset shortly after uke takes ukemi. In reality, if I successfully apply Aikido technique, you will either take damage from the technique, or you escape (ukemi) to an even worse position which opens you to taking more damage.

This is the first time I'm hearing of ukemi being an "acknowledgement of loss". I heard it being called survival, receiving technique etc. I was taught it could be an escape, counter or re-positioning but never "acknowledgement of loss".

[MrIggy]

Because it's not up to you to determine who can and cannot post here. Everyone here has the same right to voice their opinions. You don't like what she has to say then avail yourself of the block poster feature.

I was asking her dude so don't play protector here please.

[MrIggy]

Imagine a tiny person trying to employ kotegaeshi on a large person with big strong wrists. If the tiny person tries to do the technique just employing the mechanics it probably will not work. However, if the tiny person throws with kotegaeshi because it arose organically though the experience chances are the outcome would be favorable.

The tiny person in the second example is using Aikido not just a particular technique for a particular attack.

What do you define as "just the mechanics" of the technique?

[Mary Eastland]

Just the mechanics is doing the wrist twist like b follows a. For example: first I grab the wrist and then I turn and then bend his wrist back.

In Aikido if kotegaeshi arose in response to a situation, nage would respond to uke as uke is naturally.... making adjustments for factors such as timing, height, weight and space of the circumstance.
The emphasis of training is to blend with what happens not enforce an outcome.

[mathewjgano]

The emphasis of training is to blend with what happens not enforce an outcome.

I really like this, and in my view this is what ultimately keeps any art/method "alive."

A great part of training with new students and students who come from other methods (whether inside Aikido or outside is moot) is learning how to manage different patterns of behavior.

On the other hand, how well we can blend with what happens is how we can ostensibly enforce a particular outcome...perhaps.

[Mary Eastland]

I really like this, and in my view this is what ultimately keeps any art/method "alive."

A great part of training with new students and students who come from other methods (whether inside Aikido or outside is moot) is learning how to manage different patterns of behavior.

On the other hand, how well we can blend with what happens is how we can ostensibly enforce a particular outcome...perhaps.

Yes, That is the paradox.

[MrIggy]

Just the mechanics is doing the wrist twist like b follows a. For example: first I grab the wrist and then I turn and then bend his wrist back.

In Aikido if kotegaeshi arose in response to a situation, nage would respond to uke as uke is naturally.... making adjustments for factors such as timing, height, weight and space of the circumstance.
The emphasis of training is to blend with what happens not enforce an outcome.

As I can notice rarely does anybody on this forum mention the body movement needed to actually perform the blending which is in fact the actual mechanics of the technique. Nobody here ever talks about whether it's better to perform full tenkan, half tenkan, tenshin, parry the hand or not, use a strike before entry or not, drop the arm down (with your own body weight thus producing kuzushi), or not etc. There's also several ways of grabbing the hand and making the twist itself but that all should come down as a part of the mechanics of the whole technique which one would apply, again depending on the situation as well.

As for the blending vs enforcing part, if you knock someone out with an atemi before executing the whole technique for instance and your body movement is let's say irimi tenkan , that's as much as blending as it is enforcing an outcome as is if you did the full "wrist twist" part. You are still enforcing an outcome the other person doesn't want.

[MRoh]

No, there are not. That's why I asked "which" as in taught by whom? What do you mean by "each jujutsu"!?

you got techniques like nikyo in takenouchi ryû, in yagyu shingan ryû, in kukishinden ryu...and other schools.
In chin'na, for example the technique we do as nikyo from aihanmi is called: "the golden silk wraps the wrist", and It's clearly referred to as a wristlock, and the oral transmission is about locking.


Mike Jones from the NY Aikaki call is it "wrist twist" in this video:

That's the literal translation of "kote-gaeshi", I was not talking about that technique.

[MRoh]

You do realize that yoko and ushiro ukemi aren't "jumping" maneuvers right? Especially ushiro ukemi.


There is no "ushiro ukemi" too, if you are thrown hard down so hard that your head bangs on the ground, or your bones break before you reach the ground, what do you want with ushiro ukemi? You will tell me you are so skilled that you can escape from the technique, but if one really wants to destroy and knows how to apply the technique correctly, there is no way.

The terms Ikkyo, nikkyo etc are based on the terms Ikajo, nikajo, etc yes it's used for single techniques but represents teachings concerning those techniques. And you do realize that Yoshinkan still has those terms

How I said before, in Akido it's just counting the steps, 1, 2, 3, 4.

Which teaching do you think has daito ryu's ikkajo, and how is it represented in Ikkyo?

[Bernd Lehnen]

Igor Vojnović wrote:
Mike Jones from the NY Aikaki call is it "wrist twist" in this video:


That's the literal translation of "kote-gaeshi", I was not talking about that technique.

Well, not really.

Wrist would be Tekubi 手首, In Saito's "Traditional Aikido", the kanji used for kote are: 小手 which literally means "small hand", or simply forearm, that is the part of the arm that was in wartime protected by a kind of gauntlet, an armored glove which protected backhand, wrist and forearm. This armor is often written with the same kanji as the body part, but sometimes 籠手 is used.

Of course, if you know the technique, translations like „wrist turnover", „wrist return" or „wrist twist" make sense, and there isn't any gauntlet involved anymore. But, may be, it isn't an entirely correct replique of the Japanese concept of „kote gaeshi", where also kaeshi-waza may come to mind.

Best,
Bernd

[shizentai]

He doesn't have to immobilize him. That's not the point in fencing at all.

You don't have to immobilize someone with nikkyo, either. That's not the point of nikkyo at all. Like any knockout/submission you apply it when you lock the opponent out of options, which is not just about "space to move", but "time to move", as well. There is a "brief lock".

The timing element becomes very evident when you try to apply nikkyo to someone who really doesn't want you to succeed. In cooperative practice, this element of timing is completely neglected.

Or he could just go in through the pain and knock you over without you actually accomplishing anything in the process unlike in the fencing scenario where fencer #1 would impale himself.

You're redirecting this toward a different subject. Yes, someone could break their own wrist and keep fighting, that is a problem with pain compliance controls. However, they now have one less wrist.

This is the first time I'm hearing of ukemi being an "acknowledgement of loss". I heard it being called survival, receiving technique etc. I was taught it could be an escape, counter or re-positioning but never "acknowledgement of loss".

We're not talking about kaeshi waza or sutemi here. If I pull off kotegaeshi successfully, it forces opponent to take ukemi. In doing so, they trade "immediate wrist damage" for "lying on the floor while I am still standing". They did not escape - they just opened themselves to a multitude of attacks.

The whole "you can do kotegaeshi, so what, I'll just take ukemi" argument is nonsense. My initial point was that it's possible to apply kotegaeshi while standing. The benefits of its successful application involve being 1-2 steps ahead of the opponent in offensive timing.

[Bernd Lehnen]

Let's say kote-gaeshi is the outer „soto" form of the same principle of which shiho-nage is the „uchi „form. Both can be executed either aiki-age or aiki-sage. Then three things can happen: uke on his face, uke on his back, uke in a heap , but through instant kuzushi he will be stupefied, have lost his orientation and even his breath for a short moment. As you can see, this time he hadn't the time to "pull off" any ukemi in the way he may be used to, when training with the usual guy in the usual dojo. And of course, this wasn't wrist-twist. It's the moment where in Daitoryu they might contort uke into a „brezel".

Best,
Bernd

[jamesf]

Well, not really.

Wrist would be Tekubi 手首, In Saito's "Traditional Aikido", the kanji used for kote are: 小手 which literally means "small hand", or simply forearm, that is the part of the arm that was in wartime protected by a kind of gauntlet, an armored glove which protected backhand, wrist and forearm. This armor is often written with the same kanji as the body part, but sometimes 籠手 is used.

Of course, if you know the technique, translations like „wrist turnover", „wrist return" or „wrist twist" make sense, and there isn't any gauntlet involved anymore. But, may be, it isn't an entirely correct replique of the Japanese concept of „kote gaeshi", where also kaeshi-waza may come to mind.

Best,
Bernd

I prefer the translation as "forearm reverse", as the technique still works just fine when uke is wearing a large wrist brace that prevents any and all bending uke's wrist.

[MrIggy]

you got techniques like nikyo in takenouchi ryû, in yagyu shingan ryû, in kukishinden ryu...and other schools.

Oh finally, now I can actually check for some references.

In chin'na, for example the technique we do as nikyo from aihanmi is called: "the golden silk wraps the wrist", and It's clearly referred to as a wristlock, and the oral transmission is about locking.

Again which chin'na?! Who teaches it like that and how does that technique look like? And the name translations doesn't sound like a "lock" at all.

That's the literal translation of "kote-gaeshi", I was not talking about that technique.

Nevertheless you still named it as a wristlock technique somewhere so there ya go, it's not.

[MrIggy]

There is no "ushiro ukemi" too, if you are thrown hard down so hard that your head bangs on the ground, or your bones break before you reach the ground, what do you want with ushiro ukemi? You will tell me you are so skilled that you can escape from the technique, but if one really wants to destroy and knows how to apply the technique correctly, there is no way.

To avoid getting my head banged and bones broken, if you manage do all that without me managing to perform ukemi that means you actually learned something.

How I said before, in Akido it's just counting the steps, 1, 2, 3, 4.

Which teaching do you think has daito ryu's ikkajo, and how is it represented in Ikkyo?

Did you actually read what I wrote or what? I'll repost just in case: yes it's used for single techniques but represents teachings concerning those techniques. Meaning the techniques as in ikkyo is the equivalent of Ippon dori. And the steps you are referring too are actual techniques Ikkyo is a technique, Nikkyo is a technique and Sankyo is a technique. Seriously what don't you get about this?

[MRoh]

Did you actually read what I wrote or what? I'll repost just in case: yes it's used for single techniques but represents teachings concerning those techniques. Meaning the techniques as in ikkyo is the equivalent of Ippon dori. And the steps you are referring too are actual techniques Ikkyo is a technique, Nikkyo is a technique and Sankyo is a technique. Seriously what don't you get about this?

I understood what you wrote, but you didn't answer my question. Which teaching is it, that is represented by Ikkkyo?

[MrIggy]

You don't have to immobilize someone with nikkyo, either. That's not the point of nikkyo at all. Like any knockout/submission you apply it when you lock the opponent out of options, which is not just about "space to move", but "time to move", as well. There is a "brief lock".

Either someone or some part of that someone has to be immobilized if you are going to refer to nikkyo as a "wristlock" technique. The name submission clearly states what it's about and nikkyo becomes a submission only when you get to the shoulder. That's it. That's where he has either no space or any time left to move.

The timing element becomes very evident when you try to apply nikkyo to someone who really doesn't want you to succeed. In cooperative practice, this element of timing is completely neglected.

I'll for the most part with this.

You're redirecting this toward a different subject. Yes, someone could break their own wrist and keep fighting, that is a problem with pain compliance controls. However, they now have one less wrist.

Someone doesn't have to break their wrist. That's the point why nikkyo isn't a wristlock in the first place. You have very agile people and people with strong wrists who would mostly have soreness but not breakage and those type of people can endure the torsion of nikkyo ura and just go through you.

We're not talking about kaeshi waza or sutemi here. If I pull off kotegaeshi successfully, it forces opponent to take ukemi. In doing so, they trade "immediate wrist damage" for "lying on the floor while I am still standing". They did not escape - they just opened themselves to a multitude of attacks.

You do realize you don't just lay down in either yoko or ushiro ukemi, it's not like in Judo where you learn to take a breakfall. In ushiro ukemi you should immediately roll backwards over your shoulder to get back on your feet and in yoko ukemi your rotation speed should be fast so you land on your thigh and be able to immediately stand up to counter attack or just slide in off the knees to attack the groin for instance. In ushiro ukemi you can also use the leg to kick yourself off thus doing a leg attack from back for instance.

The whole "you can do kotegaeshi, so what, I'll just take ukemi" argument is nonsense. My initial point was that it's possible to apply kotegaeshi while standing. The benefits of its successful application involve being 1-2 steps ahead of the opponent in offensive timing.

I never made that argument. There are several points of successfully applying a technique, the first and most important is to know proper body movement. Which I'm not so sure how many people are really aware of.

[MrIggy]

I understood what you wrote, but you didn't answer my question. Which teaching is it, that is represented by Ikkkyo?

Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc. You can do nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo and rokkyo all from ikkyo.

[MRoh]

Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc. You can do nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo and rokkyo all from ikkyo.

Ah, teachings....I see, you got it.

[shizentai]

Either someone or some part of that someone has to be immobilized if you are going to refer to nikkyo as a "wristlock" technique. The name submission clearly states what it's about and nikkyo becomes a submission only when you get to the shoulder. That's it. That's where he has either no space or any time left to move.

All submissions can cause serious bodily harm IRL when cranked. Nikkyo is not a submission in a traditional sense. It's not a static wrist lock, but one that can be caught in a moment in time in order to snap the wrist.

Your argument is based on the assumption that if you can't fix something in place, i.e. "lock it" in traditional sense, the technique doesn't work. But it does. Compressing time limits the movement one can do to escape during that time.

Someone doesn't have to break their wrist. That's the point why nikkyo isn't a wristlock in the first place. You have very agile people and people with strong wrists who would mostly have soreness but not breakage and those type of people can endure the torsion of nikkyo ura and just go through you.

There are also people with dual-jointed shoulders on whom a shoulder lock doesn't work... there are people with iron jaws who can't be knocked out by a punch... etc etc

Fortunately most people are average, not Cirque Du Soleil performers on PCP. Nikkyo will work on a lot of people at the wrist joint.

You do realize you don't just lay down in either yoko or ushiro ukemi, it's not like in Judo where you learn to take a breakfall. In ushiro ukemi you should immediately roll backwards over your shoulder to get back on your feet and in yoko ukemi your rotation speed should be fast so you land on your thigh and be able to immediately stand up to counter attack or just slide in off the knees to attack the groin for instance. In ushiro ukemi you can also use the leg to kick yourself off thus doing a leg attack from back for instance.

Kotegaeshi is just the first step of an attack chain. Uke rolling out and getting up, is not "free" in terms of space-time. It's only free in cooperative practice, where nage is standing dumbfounded like an extra in a Van Damme movie. In reality, uke will face an uphill battle from an inferior position.

[MrIggy]

Ah, teachings....I see, you got it.

Yeah I did, funny I had to tell you about it.

[MRoh]

Yeah I did, funny I had to tell you about it.

No, it's not really funny, it seems that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, or which teachings in which kajo are transmitted. You should have an answer, how this teachings are represented in the single techniques, if you think they represent this system of kajo, you would not answer in this way you do: "Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc.", that is rather vague.

Maybe you would talk about kinds of receiving the techniques, or something that could show that you undersstood the structure, but you do not.

[MrIggy]

All submissions can cause serious bodily harm IRL when cranked. Nikkyo is not a submission in a traditional sense. It's not a static wrist lock, but one that can be caught in a moment in time in order to snap the wrist.

Nikkyo is not a wristlock at all. Even in nikkyo ura it's no about the wrist, it's about the forearm. I agree the move on the wrist can be used to snap it, but it's not a lock then.

Your argument is based on the assumption that if you can't fix something in place, i.e. "lock it" in traditional sense, the technique doesn't work. But it does. Compressing time limits the movement one can do to escape during that time.

The point isn't whether it "works" or not. The point is what is the actual work being done. And there is no "traditional" sense in it or not.

There are also people with dual-jointed shoulders on whom a shoulder lock doesn't work... there are people with iron jaws who can't be knocked out by a punch... etc etc
Fortunately most people are average, not Cirque Du Soleil performers on PCP. Nikkyo will work on a lot of people at the wrist joint.

There are far more people being able to endure a torsion caused by nikkyo than those with double jointed shoulders. And you can actually train yourself to endure nikkyo at the wrist more, you don't have to be a part of the cirques. As for the "iron jaws", there are other places to hit somebody on the head, like the neck, temple, cheek, behind the ear and regular hitting of the jaw actually turns it more into glass, go look at the last years of Chuck Liddell's carrier.

Kotegaeshi is just the first step of an attack chain. Uke rolling out and getting up, is not "free" in terms of space-time. It's only free in cooperative practice, where nage is standing dumbfounded like an extra in a Van Damme movie. In reality, uke will face an uphill battle from an inferior position.

Oh for Chris't sake, you don't roll over your shoulder for 5 minutes, you do it in 2 seconds, really physically trained people do it in 1 and their barely touches the mat.
And that's why you are supposed to be taught how to defend and escape from that inferior position as soon as possible.

[MrIggy]

No, it's not really funny, it seems that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, or which teachings in which kajo are transmitted. You should have an answer, how this teachings are represented in the single techniques, if you think they represent this system of kajo, you would not answer in this way you do: "Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc.", that is rather vague.

Neither do you have a clue of what I'm talking about. This whole conversation started with the names, as I pointed out that Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc. are based on the Ikkajo, Nikajo terms. You stated talking about how they are just "one, two and three" while they actually stand as names for different techniques as well. In other words you don't actually know what you are trying to explain here concerning the difference between Aikido and Daito ryu.

Maybe you would talk about kinds of receiving the techniques, or something that could show that you undersstood the structure, but you do not.

Oh great, you seem to know the structure, then by all means explain it. Both the Daito ryu and Aikido structure and the difference between them.

[shizentai]

Nikkyo is not a wristlock at all. Even in nikkyo ura it's no about the wrist, it's about the forearm. I agree the move on the wrist can be used to snap it, but it's not a lock then.

The point isn't whether it "works" or not. The point is what is the actual work being done. And there is no "traditional" sense in it or not.

Eh, looks like I am arguing about physical application, and you're arguing about what it's called.

There are far more people being able to endure a torsion caused by nikkyo than those with double jointed shoulders. And you can actually train yourself to endure nikkyo at the wrist more, you don't have to be a part of the cirques. As for the "iron jaws", there are other places to hit somebody on the head, like the neck, temple, cheek, behind the ear and regular hitting of the jaw actually turns it more into glass, go look at the last years of Chuck Liddell's carrier.

Yes, nikkyo can be an intermediate control on the way to "bigger control" - in theory. But in my experience, the practical version of "nikkyo as control" is waki gatame. That's when you get to the shoulder. Otherwise, it's better used as wrist snap or transition to sankyo, which is a more reliable control.

Oh for Chris't sake, you don't roll over your shoulder for 5 minutes, you do it in 2 seconds, really physically trained people do it in 1 and their barely touches the mat.
And that's why you are supposed to be taught how to defend and escape from that inferior position as soon as possible.

In grappling context, the moment you can create a predictable reaction from your opponent, you can catch them in a submission, or worsen their position further - and it happens very fast. Kotegaeshi is one of the things which does exactly that. I would gladly demonstrate what happens when you take kotegaeshi ukemi, if you didn't live all the way in Serbia ;)

[MRoh]

This whole conversation started with the names, as I pointed out that Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc. are based on the Ikkajo, Nikajo terms. You stated talking about how they are just "one, two and three" while they actually stand as names for different techniques as well.

Of course they are names, but what is the meaning? It's counting from on to five with gokyo included.
You said Ikkyo is a system, and that's not what it is, it's a single technique that derived from one technique of the hiden mokuroku, ippon dori. I think Ellis Amdur identified also one or two others as the source techniques.
So, not Ikkyo is a system, the hiden mokuroku is a system, from which ikkajo is one section, from which ippon dori is one technique, from which ikkyo derived...
What's the same is just the way to count, 1,2,3,4...

Oh great, you seem to know the structure, then by all means explain it. Both the Daito ryu and Aikido structure and the difference between them..

It sounded like you have veryy good knowledge about that...
The structure in Aikido is simple, there are five basic osae-waza, and they are tought as steps from one to five, while they all have ikkyo as the base, at least in the most schools it's tought in this way.
Begining from Ikkyo you twist the arm more and come to nikyo, and so on.
There are theories in which angles and axes play a role. for example ikkyo and shiho nage are on the same axis, but rotated 180°, what's the reason für being in the same Kajo, the same with nikyo and kote-gaeshi.
The Kajo system that existed in the 50's (Tadashi Abes book) is a very stripped down version of the daito ryu system.

As regards daito ryu, there are explanations, in which the Kajo represent different ways of receiving attacks, how the hands are crossed and so on, but I don't know very exactly.
The structure of the daito ryu system is, that there are different sections or steps of teaching.
The first is the hiden mokuroku with 118 techniques in four sections, followed by 53 Aiki no jutsu techniqes, then hiden Ogi (36) Goshin yo no te (84) and Kaishaku soden (477).
The curriculum also includes Aiki-bo, Aikitachi, Aiki-ni-to, and Aiki-yari

[MrIggy]

Eh, looks like I am arguing about physical application, and you're arguing about what it's called.

I'm arguing about what it is and what it isn't.

Yes, nikkyo can be an intermediate control on the way to "bigger control" - in theory. But in my experience, the practical version of "nikkyo as control" is waki gatame. That's when you get to the shoulder. Otherwise, it's better used as wrist snap or transition to sankyo, which is a more reliable control.

You mean hijikime osae aka rokkyo aka shoulder pin.

In grappling context, the moment you can create a predictable reaction from your opponent, you can catch them in a submission, or worsen their position further - and it happens very fast. Kotegaeshi is one of the things which does exactly that. I would gladly demonstrate what happens when you take kotegaeshi ukemi, if you didn't live all the way in Serbia ;)

I would gladly participare in that.

[MrIggy]

Of course they are names, but what is the meaning? It's counting from on to five with gokyo included.

First of all Ikkyo means first teaching. Ikkajo would be something like first item or first section, mokuroku would mean catalogue. Therefore Ikkajo would be the first item in the mokuroku cataloque.

You said Ikkyo is a system, and that's not what it is, it's a single technique that derived from one technique of the hiden mokuroku, ippon dori. I think Ellis Amdur identified also one or two others as the source techniques.
So, not Ikkyo is a system, the hiden mokuroku is a system, from which ikkajo is one section, from which ippon dori is one technique, from which ikkyo derived...
What's the same is just the way to count, 1,2,3,4...

I never said it was a system I said the name Ikkyo represents a single technique and teachings that are found in the training of that technique. However if it does come from more than one technique, Ippon dori, that actually makes the case of it being a systematic approach to something rather than being just a single entity. As Ippon dori is the first technique in the Ikkajo, there is the reason why Ikkyo is the first teaching.

It sounded like you have veryy good knowledge about that...

I want to see what you think you know.

The structure in Aikido is simple, there are five basic osae-waza, and they are tought as steps from one to five, while they all have ikkyo as the base, at least in the most schools it's tought in this way.
Begining from Ikkyo you twist the arm more and come to nikyo, and so on.
There are theories in which angles and axes play a role. for example ikkyo and shiho nage are on the same axis, but rotated 180°, what's the reason für being in the same Kajo, the same with nikyo and kote-gaeshi.
The Kajo system that existed in the 50's (Tadashi Abes book) is a very stripped down version of the daito ryu system.

Actually the structure in Daito ryu, concerning the Mokuroku, is much more simpler. You have the main catalogue (mokuroku) with five items (kajo) and techniques in each of the items (sections if you wish) that you study and that's it.

In Aikido you have 4 or 5 "basic teachings" or techniques (depending on who you ask) and then you have teachings (kamae, maai, kuzushi etc) that are associated with each teaching and various variations of techniques (uchi, soto etc) associated with them as well. By others you have more than 5 kyo-s, rokkyo (hijikimeosae) and nanakyo. However due to a "systematization" effort by the Aikikai, rokkyo is considered somewhat of a subset of nikkyo as gokyo is that of ikkyo so essentially you have 4 basic teachings and subset teachings. And in all of that you have to fit in the weapons work which isn't even taught at the Aikikai HQ. And let's not talk about the various instructors and their personal stamps on the curriculum being taught. In other words the Aikido curriculum is anything but simple.

As for the various theories about what's what and where. Here's a nice article I don't think you've read: http://kogenbudo.org/reflections-on-the-origin-of-ueshiba-moriheis-koshinage-the-relationship-of-daito-ryu-and-aikido-waza/

As regards daito ryu, there are explanations, in which the Kajo represent different ways of receiving attacks, how the hands are crossed and so on, but I don't know very exactly.
The structure of the daito ryu system is, that there are different sections or steps of teaching.
The first is the hiden mokuroku with 118 techniques in four sections, followed by 53 Aiki no jutsu techniqes, then hiden Ogi (36) Goshin yo no te (84) and Kaishaku soden (477).
The curriculum also includes Aiki-bo, Aikitachi, Aiki-ni-to, and Aiki-yari

And that curriculum depends on who is teaching it. The Kodokai by all the accounts I have heard don't even teach any of those techniques. The Takumakai seems to have a bit more up their sleeve or at least the same amount:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm05.htm

Shoden 118 kajo ura-omote
Aikinojutsu 53 kajo ura-omote
Hidenoogi 36 kajo ura-omote
Daito-ryu Aiki Nito-ryu Hiden
Goshinyonote 84 kajo jo-chu-ge
Kaishakusoudennokoto 477
Kaidennokoto 88 kajo

[MRoh]

First of all Ikkyo means first teaching. Ikkajo would be something like first item or first section, mokuroku would mean catalogue. Therefore Ikkajo would be the first item in the mokuroku cataloque.


Thats what I tell you, why do you repeat? It's counting through the steps.
But it's not just randomized, there is a reason why techniques are systemized this way.


I want to see what you think you know.

How tricky!


As for the various theories about what's what and where. Here's a nice article I don't think you've read:


Yes, read it

[MrIggy]

Thats what I tell you, why do you repeat? It's counting through the steps.

Which steps? You keep talking about steps and I keep talking about teachings. Those are two different things.

But it's not just randomized, there is a reason why techniques are systemized this way.

Which? The Aikido or the Daito ryu techniques?

Yes, read it

Great.

[MRoh]

Which steps? You keep talking about steps and I keep talking about teachings. Those are two different things.

Teachings normally follow a system, in which knowledge is transmitted in steps.
I asked you more then one, which teachings you identify in which kajo, and how it is represented in the single techniques, Ikkyo, Nikyo, sankyo, yonkyô, but you didn't answer.


Which? The Aikido or the Daito ryu techniques?

both.

[MrIggy]

Teachings normally follow a system, in which knowledge is transmitted in steps.

Yeah and for each teaching/technique you have several steps be it Ikkyo, Nikyo Sankyo etc.

I asked you more then one, which teachings you identify in which kajo, and how it is represented in the single techniques, Ikkyo, Nikyo, sankyo, yonkyô, but you didn't answer.

You never asked me this. You asked me which teachings are presented in the techniques/teachings Ikkyo, Nikkyo, etc. and I told you things like kuzushi, maai etc. You never asked for a kajo/kyo comparison. However that would be interesting to do but you would also have to explain which teachings are presented in the kajo themselves and in which system. The mainline Kondo system, Takumakai or Kodokai and only then can you make a thorough comparison of what is what and where.

[Walter Martindale]

Markus, Igor: You're on the same continent. Drive or fly (air travel over there is cheap) to a common location, discuss all this in person over a few beers or coffee or something. Maybe even discuss it in a dojo with "hands on" and then have some beers. If you get it sorted out and become friends, post your conclusions.

[MRoh]

Yeah and for each teaching/technique you have several steps be it Ikkyo, Nikyo Sankyo etc.

So teaching and technique is the same?


You never asked me this. You asked me which teachings are presented in the techniques/teachings Ikkyo, Nikkyo, etc. and I told you things like kuzushi, maai etc. You never asked for a kajo/kyo comparison.

I asked you here:


Which teaching do you think has daito ryu's ikkajo, and how is it represented in Ikkyo?

I recommend to read this thread about the correalation between the techniques of daito ryu and Aikido: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15096
It is made clear that the related daito ryu techniques from which the "kyo" derived, appear in different kajo, so the source techniques from which one techhnique derived mostly not only appears in the homonymic kajo (same step).
Te source techniques for nikyo for example are in every kajo:


Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo (Kote Mawashi) ≈

Ikkajo: Gyaku Ude Dori, Tate Eri Dori, Dakijime Dori, Nukite Dori
Nikajo: Kote Zume, Shuto Zume, Gyaku Gote, Kamate Zume
Sankajo: Soto Gote, Uchi Ude Gaeshi
Yonkajo: Temakura Zume
Ikkajo Uragata: Tachi Eri Dori

The conclusion is, that from kajo to kajo the difference lies in the quality of the techniques:

as you moved through the levels of technique, Ikkajo through Gokajo, the quality of the technique improved in the sense the higher the level, the less the technique relied on pure physical strength, relying more on timing, positioning, and manipulation of Uke.

So the higher the level, the more aiki.

[Walter Martindale]

Markus, Igor: You're on the same continent. Drive or fly (air travel over there is cheap) to a common location, discuss all this in person over a few beers or coffee or something. Maybe even discuss it in a dojo with "hands on" and then have some beers. If you get it sorted out and become friends, post your conclusions.

two hour flight from Belgrade to Dusseldorf... Less than $300 canadian round trip... Share the costs - talk.

[MrIggy]

So teaching and technique is the same?

Interchangeable.

I asked you here:

"Which teaching do you think has daito ryu's ikkajo, and how is it represented in Ikkyo?"

First, kuzushi, second the angles aka tenshin movement in Aikido, and third distance or maai. At least based on the techniques I've seen from Katcuyuki Kondo's video.

I recommend to read this thread about the correalation between the techniques of daito ryu and Aikido: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15096
It is made clear that the related daito ryu techniques from which the "kyo" derived, appear in different kajo, so the source techniques from which one techhnique derived mostly not only appears in the homonymic kajo (same step).
Te source techniques for nikyo for example are in every kajo:

Yeah I know, I have videos of the Ikkajo, Nikajo and etc. There also on youtube, plus this is the same article I posted before. However not exactly the "source" techniques.

The conclusion is, that from kajo to kajo the difference lies in the quality of the techniques:

as you moved through the levels of technique, Ikkajo through Gokajo, the quality of the technique improved in the sense the higher the level, the less the technique relied on pure physical strength, relying more on timing, positioning, and manipulation of Uke.

So the higher the level, the more aiki.

And depending on who you ask. That's not aiki, just better proficiency in execution. Which also happens in Aikido...

[MRoh]

And depending on who you ask. That's not aiki, just better proficiency in execution. Which also happens in Aikido...

Better proficiency in execution in both daito ryu and Aikido means to execute technique with a rising degree of aiki.
What is aiki? Indeed, it depends on who you ask.

[MrIggy]

Better proficiency in execution in both daito ryu and Aikido means to execute technique with a rising degree of aiki.
What is aiki? Indeed, it depends on who you ask.

Depending on who you ask and who you know, no it doesn't.

[Mary Eastland]

Aiki -- co-ordination of mind and body.

[MRoh]

Depending on who you ask and who you know, no it doesn't.

Thats a very good and very sound argument.:D

[MrIggy]

Thats a very good and very sound argument.:D

Much like your own that people get aiki by going through the techniques. There is no evidence of that.

[MRoh]

Much like your own that people get aiki by going through the techniques. There is no evidence of that.

Please read. I didn't say anything like that.

How do you imagine to get better proficiency in executing techniques, and what characterizes the better execution?
Please don't tell me things like: Hey dude, just better maai, better kuzushi, things like that...

[nikyu62]

Aikido does not work at all in a fight.......on the internet ; )

[Hilary]

Aaaand we have Nikyu62 for the win!

[MrIggy]

Please read. I didn't say anything like that.

How do you imagine to get better proficiency in executing techniques, and what characterizes the better execution?
Please don't tell me things like: Hey dude, just better maai, better kuzushi, things like that...

Better and faster entering, disrupting of uke and executing the technique with uke under full control. And all the doesn't need the "aiki" in the way people describe it.

[MRoh]

executing the technique with uke under full control.

In aiki-jujutsu, you should do that with aiki,
otherwise it's not aiki-jujutsu.
The higher the level, the more aiki, that's the system.
But that's not a secret.

[Bernd Lehnen]

In aiki-jujutsu, you should do that with aiki,
otherwise it's not aiki-jujutsu.
The higher the level, the more aiki, that's the system.
But that's not a secret.

That may not be a secret, for sure.
But even if they agree that aiki is a skill, who can define it?
More important, who can show, who can do?
Why so few, if anyone?
So fare it's almost just but a legendary „saga" about some single rare and outstanding people and something under the suspicion to be „hidden in plain sight."
I'd recommend HIPS, the book of Ellis Amdur.
For a start...

Best,
Bernd

[MRoh]

More important, who can show, who can do?


You know who can.
But it's not the point, going through the systematik learning process requires a very high amount of energy and time, not many are ready for that, even if t hey know what to train.
Outstanding people have an outstanding charakter, and a strong will. So not everybody will reach a high level.

I'd recommend HIPS...

Thank you very much.;)

[MrIggy]

In aiki-jujutsu, you should do that with aiki,
otherwise it's not aiki-jujutsu.
The higher the level, the more aiki, that's the system.
But that's not a secret.

Level of what? Let's define first what you think is the higher level? Higher level of knowledge of the techniques and how to do them more proficiently? That doesn't automatically mean you have aiki. By the accounts you can have high aiki without actually being proficient in the techniques.

[MRoh]

Because of that you have a system for both, growing in techniques and in aiki.
If someone is only interestes in techniqes he will maybe not develop aiki or stay at a jujutsu level, but developing aiki without growing technically will not happen, if you go through the systematic teachings, step by step.
but if you have gone through every stage, also aiki-jujutsu and aiki no jutsu, you will have a certain level of aiki

[JLRonin]

Isn't Aikido all about conflict resolution?

[JLRonin]

read this:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24371

[JLRonin]

https://youtu.be/ty33CbwKFBs

[MrIggy]

Because of that you have a system for both, growing in techniques and in aiki.
If someone is only interestes in techniqes he will maybe not develop aiki or stay at a jujutsu level, but developing aiki without growing technically will not happen, if you go through the systematic teachings, step by step.
but if you have gone through every stage, also aiki-jujutsu and aiki no jutsu, you will have a certain level of aiki

And again, there is no "system" for growing in techniques you either get more proficient or you don't. The aiki part seems to be the one where there is a sort of a system.

[MRoh]

And again, there is no "system" for growing in techniques you either get more proficient or you don't.

Ok, believe that if you want, maybe it's true for what you know,
I have no need für further discussions.

[MrIggy]

Ok, believe that if you want, maybe it's true for what you know,
I have no need für further discussions.

Well, thanks nevertheless, it was interesting.