PDA

View Full Version : Aikido does not work at all in a fight.


Pages : 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8

Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


rob_liberti
05-08-2005, 09:22 PM
I can't speak for all of aikido (like some people?!) but in my experience, I have a sempai named Nashida san who trains at Shohei Juku - Takasogo dojo (in Fukuoka, Japan). He tends to work out on Thursday nights. Please go meet him and invite him to a challenge to an open-handed match. He'll seriosuly might ask you to sign some legal papers first. Go ahead. I tried my best attacks on him and he made me feel like a 2 year old. I'm not saying I'm a world class attacker, but I think you'll get the feeling that some people are more than able to modify what is done in open handed aikido to fit unpredictable fighting situations- and he'll probably not hurt you too badly unless you really are asking for it. I'm fairly certain that he has tested aikido's effectiveness out and has no interest what-so-ever to prove anything about aikido to anyone. But if you are nice and ask for a challenge I'm sure you'll get one. If you are so positive that open handed aikido does not work period, maybe you can try to wait for him after class and try to take his wallet. :) Good luck.

Rob

Bodhi
05-09-2005, 02:17 AM
CNYMike, actually the Gracies had been doing open challenges in Brazil for over 65 years before ever comming to the US. It wasnt until the 90s that the media began televising NHB events, wich in turn really brought in the numbers of people trying to test BJJ unsuccessfully, i think thats what Chris was getting at.( Chris, correct me if i misinterpreted you)

Yes BJJ is part of the JKD concepts curriculum, as is Kali/Silat, Muay Thai, etc, we use whatever consistantly works under "live" conditions. BTW, your in a great lineage, i have trained with Eric Paulson at some seminars (we are both within the Inosanto lineage), probly one of the coolest people ive ever met!

You are right not to be disrespectful of other arts, especially sense all arts have something to offer! I truly believe after years of experience in real world situations, not to mention working with some of the top martial artists around, that its the individual and how they have been training that makes the difference! You absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own, then you train under live conditions, with resisting opponents who are trying not to let you pull off your technique!

In the end, all this talk about this or that doesnt mean squat, i know guys from the street that would take apart most the people on this forum, they could give a shit about what you study or who your old ass teacher is or was! So it really boils down to how you view your life, what makes you happy, and what you feel you do and do not need to worry about! I have spent many years in some not so favorable places, doing jobs that could have gotten me killed, i think for the most part i have been very lucky! But one thing i do know is what does and does not work for real, be it day to day life, on the street, or overseas in some third world combat zone! I would venture to say that most the people on this forum have no clue what it really takes to survive a truly violent attack, one that keeps comming, and whos end result seems as if it were certain death! Im not talkin bout some bar fight that gets pulled apart, or you an your best friend gettin into it over some woman and getting afew bumps an bruises. Im talkin bout gettin a blade stuck in your ribs and still going on, im talkin bout having to fight over a firearm while the trigger is being pulled every few seconds, im talkin bout being caught in a situation where you must reach deep down inside you just to stay up! I could care less what others do, what they study, whom they train with, or what they have to say about me, i know i can walk the walk, and i know that what i have trained works for real, under conditions most these people have only had nightmares about! Anybody who wants me can come an find out if im for real or not, its that simple!

We got alot of keyboard warriors here, we got alot of guys sayin who would take who, or go challenge this guy or that, gimme a break! :rolleyes: I asked all of you awhile back to get togather someplace in the middle of the country, to try and get the highest ranking Aikido people we could get to come! I said that we could test some theory for those folks that think they know what works consistantly against resisting attackers! Anywhere from different martial arts, to plain old street fighters, i even know afew Pro Boxers, Collegient Wrestlers, and NHB/MMA folks that would show! I thought it would be fun, and in the process really get alot of the questions answered, but people didnt wanna step up! Like i said, its eaisier to stay in that confort zone, and talk about what you, your teachers, or people from the past could have done! Its no wonder why so many people laugh at Aikido, it gets a bad wrap because nobody wants to lay it on the line! Theres so many talkers and typers out there!

Anyways, im bout done with this whole forum experience, it seems to be just alot of babble that i got caught up in after i asked a question for my old lady! I would also like to say that im not trying to single anyone out! I do think for the most part that Aikido people are good folks, its just that they bicker like a bunch of old women and their concept of reality sometimes makes me wanna :yuck:

Now make sure to come back with some witty posts after im gone!

Good luck to you all, im out!
J

rob_liberti
05-09-2005, 08:10 AM
Hmm, so Jason, I should try to convince my sempai from Japan to come to the middle of the States somewhere so that you can test him out? How does that work exactly?! Do people do this? I think I would have as much a chance of setting that up as doing it on the moon.

Maybe an analogy might help. If I want to know how to spell a word, I take it upon myself to go find a dictionary. Now, when you want to check your spelling, do you challlenge someone to bring a dictionary to you and prove to you that your spelling is incorrect?

That's a pretty dishonest method of investigation if you ask me. But to be fair, you didn't ask.

Rob

CNYMike
05-09-2005, 10:39 AM
CNYMike, actually the Gracies had been doing open challenges in Brazil for over 65 years before ever comming to the US. It wasnt until the 90s that the media began televising NHB events, wich in turn really brought in the numbers of people trying to test BJJ unsuccessfully, i think thats what Chris was getting at.( Chris, correct me if i misinterpreted you)


You're right, but I was thinking of the videos they put out before the NHB events were telivised. And some BJJ made it into the first Lethal Weapon movie, so I was going by that.


..... I asked all of you awhile back to get togather someplace in the middle of the country, to try and get the highest ranking Aikido people we could get to come! I said that we could test some theory for those folks that think they know what works consistantly against resisting attackers! Anywhere from different martial arts, to plain old street fighters, i even know afew Pro Boxers, Collegient Wrestlers, and NHB/MMA folks that would show! I thought it would be fun, and in the process really get alot of the questions answered, but people didnt wanna step up! .....

Like you could find a weekend when anyone's free!? If you haven't left Aikiweb for good yet, go to the "seminars" page and compare the listed events with what you have for the "JKD Concepts" seminars and events; I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of conflicts. Then figure everyone else has tournaments, clincis, seminars .....

Just picking a date would be a pain in the butt! I'm not kidding about that, it would be.


..... Like i said, its eaisier to stay in that confort zone, and talk about what you, your teachers, or people from the past could have done! .....

I'd prefer to think "they" have their area of interest, just like you do. Yes, people get into esoteric, spiritual stuff, but Aikido is the most esoteric, spiritual martial art. It's like wondering why Thai Boxers spend a lot of time doing round kicks.

Its no wonder why so many people laugh at Aikido .....

Nobody I know has laughed at my doing it. Guro Andy even encouraged me to add it to my training schedule (which also includes karate, Guro Andy's Kali/Serak class, and Tai Chi); he's said he's happy I'm doing all that because it makes "for a better Michael Gallagher." (I think it makes for a sleepy Michael Gallagher! If Andy's nuts concentrating on three arts, I must be totally whacked to be doing FIVE! Like anyone here has both oars in the water. But I digress.) More recently, I loaned him Training with the Master, a day-in-the-life photo essay on O Sensei. I think he read it from cover to cover. Makes me feel like a slacker -- I just went to the pictures. :o If anyone thinks I'm wasting my time, they haven't told me!

ChrisHein
05-09-2005, 11:24 AM
I think it's funny how fast some people around here like to pass the buck! "I mean I'm not so good, but I know it works because my buddies good, you should fight with him", or, "Well I've never fought anyone but my teacher once beat up an army of super ninjas, so I know my stuff works, but I'm a pacifist". If you want to find out if your stuff works, just try it out, other wise, if you're happy with what you're doing shut up. There is no guarantee to winning a fight, everyone knows this, but different things can give you an edge, training is one of them. The better your training the more likely you are to come out of a situation in one piece. From the way some of the people around here tout their system I think they should be doing some public demonstrations of their ability against non cooperative attackers, you would become a famous sensei!

-Chris Hein

rob_liberti
05-09-2005, 01:06 PM
Chris,

A real live example was asked for, and I gave rather specific instructions about how to go about finding one. Please, by all means, go and find out for yourself. As far as bringing that person to the States for you or Jason, I can't even have that specific sempai come to the States to teach a seminar because I would have to invite his sensei and let that sensei decide to come, or pass the invitation on to anyone that sensei wants - which would probably NOT be the guy I wanted in the first place. If that specific sempai came to the States and did a seminar without permission, he'd not be welcome back to his home dojo. That's the reality of his Japanese culture.

As far as me passing the buck. Some guy came to visit me, and let him try - no buck passed there. I consistently go to friendship seminars and try all kinds of people who are really good. I never avoid anyone there. Some take me apart, and some have a lot more to learn. Each time, I learn all sorts of things. Those consistent actions are pretty much the exact opposite of passing the buck on the subject. While we both have written about our personal experiences, the thing is that I know I'm not so good at aikido that I can make blanket statements about aikido based on my personal experiences. As a matter of fact, in my own experiences, I do know someone that would be happy to let you challenge his open-handed aikido ability - you just have to accommodate his culture. It's up to you.

Good luck with your training.
Rob

CNYMike
05-09-2005, 09:08 PM
... I think it's funny how fast some people around here like to pass the buck! .....

Even if you read the published works on Aikido, the accounts are out there; you can't avoid them. In Aikido: The Way of Harmony, John Stevens wrote about an incident in which Shirata Rinjiro Sensei upended a karate man who threw a kick instead of shomen uchi. You can role your eyes and go, Oh, that's a rumor, show me a guy going into a cage match with the NHB heavyweight champ and winning! Then I might consider believing, but that doesn't change the fact the accounts are there.

For myself, I have to ammend a statement I made earlier in the thread when I said Aikido didn't pop out when I did some impromptu sparring with my Kali instructor. I might have refelxively done some Aikido footwork at one point. It didn't do me any good at the time, because I was holding one of Guro Andy's hands while he swatted me with the other one (it was light contact and he was being nice, so I wasn't beaten to a pulp), but what leads me to believe it might have been Aikido is that on reflection, I have no clear memory of what I did; my body was on autopilot, just as it was on another recent occassion when I finished a Kali arm bar with an Aikido pin. Then again, I've piled so many things into my muscle memory over the years that it might not have been Aikido. So the best I can say is that the possibility that Aiki can happen during a kickboxing scenario can not be excluded with 100% certainty, even with your experiences to the contrary.

Say that ten times fast.

Not the most dramatic testimonial -- in fact, very lame -- but there you are.

ChrisHein
05-10-2005, 06:55 PM
Forget the NHB heavy weight champ, I'd like to see a Rokudan beat a cameraman in an unarmed confrontation!!

-Chris Hein

CNYMike
05-11-2005, 12:30 AM
Forget the NHB heavy weight champ, I'd like to see a Rokudan beat a cameraman in an unarmed confrontation!!

-Chris Hein

:confused: :freaky: :hypno: :confused: :freaky: :hypno: :confused: :freaky: :hypno:

rob_liberti
05-11-2005, 07:45 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7978

CNYMike
05-11-2005, 10:15 AM
Thanks for the link, Rob.

Satyre
09-05-2005, 03:45 PM
I'm a New Zealander. We don't solve disputes by shooting people.

In the venerable tradition of our English, Scottish, Irish and Maori forebears we resolve conflicts in the old-fashioned manner: Fisticuffs. We enjoy hitting each other. So do many Australians I believe.

Nevertheless I have spent less than 5 minutes fighting in the last 10 years.

On the other hand I will probably practice Aikido for between 200-300 hours a year.

In a worst case scenario, this means I practice for 2000 hours in 10 years to ensure that I am ready for those 5 minutes.

Is it just me or does that make no sense whatsoever?

Hell, not even I am that paranoid.

(It would make more sense to embrace religion and spend 60 years preparing my soul for being eternally dead: the investment-return ratio is considerably better)


As such, the question of whether Aikido does or does not work in a fight is in many respects irrelevant. Moreover, I am much more likely to suffer more pain and a greater number of injuries as a result of practicing Aikido than as a result of being attacked.

In fact, this is most likely true of many martial arts: People suffer more injuries and pain learning a martial art than as a result of being involved in a serious conflict.
I know of more judoka whose knees and shoulders have been destroyed in competition than of those who have been beaten up in a street fight.


Does Aikido work?

We can train for the real case as best we can. But in the end, the joy we get from the training itself is worth far more than any self-defense benefits we might gain.

Jiawei
09-06-2005, 08:10 PM
Aikido was never designed for a deliberate fight. It was meant (technically not counting the spiritual aspect in) , to defend yourself while given the option not to hurt your attacker. That's one of the genius inventions behind Aikido.

So if the starter of the thread is crazy enough to use Aikido to pick a streetfight........


But yet, I say we still haven't seen AIkido at its fullest potential in a real situation. So to say it doesn't work is gross underestimation

Chris Walla
09-14-2005, 11:17 AM
I have nothing to say that hasn't been said here, so I guess I will go to a soccer sponsered forum and tell them they do not know how to kick or run.

Dirk Hanss
09-14-2005, 11:29 AM
Chris,
don't do that in the net, but live in a fan club. That will make more fun and as side effect you can test your aikido ;)


Dirk

Williamross77
09-14-2005, 11:33 AM
I used my Aikido to start a restaurant.1 not to end a fight.
yes kenpo works BETTER in a fight, but then i am glad i don't enpo my child when things get ROUGH. well i like o think of my aikido as sorta like surfing,

Williamross77
09-14-2005, 11:38 AM
oh yeah, Jun you should ban all future questions about the validity of our art, since this site is for aikidoka we should know?!?!/ just a thought that would disolve allthis chatter for all of us who have encountered a SERIOUS SANKYO. and for all you non aikido yes i am an instructor in kenpo and aikido, like some people teach painting and math.

ChrisHein
09-14-2005, 12:04 PM
When do you guys think all these silly threads like "Aikido never works" or "I can't beat up Rickson Gracie with Aikido, so it's no good" Going to stop? I mean isn't it time to get over it, if you didn't get into Aikido with Illusions of being a super hero, then discover that you are to fat and lazy to actually learn anything, thus leaving fantasy land; you wouldn't be complaining right now.

-Chris Hein
Recovering fat lazy fantasy kid.

SeiserL
09-14-2005, 12:48 PM
When do you guys think all these silly threads like "Aikido never works" or "I can't beat up Rickson Gracie with Aikido, so it's no good" Going to stop?

IMHO, these questions will never stop. They are valid questions from the beginner spectator position. They cannot be answered in a verbal forum but only if the individual has the discipline and patience to train hard and long enough to answer the question themselves from their own experience.

Let them ask. Think of them as your Kohai.

Kevin Leavitt
09-14-2005, 04:05 PM
Benjamin wrote:In a worst case scenario, this means I practice for 2000 hours in 10 years to ensure that I am ready for those 5 minutes.

Is it just me or does that make no sense whatsoever?

Hell, not even I am that paranoid.

(It would make more sense to embrace religion and spend 60 years preparing my soul for being eternally dead: the investment-return ratio is considerably better)

You and me see eye to eye. Go back and look at many of my post...only you said it much better.

I think aikido or any martial art as a means of self defense or fighting is a waste of time for the reasons you state! There are many more effective ways.

To add, you have a higher chance of dying from high cholesterol and diet induced diseases, so you are better off practicing good nutrition and exercise as a form of self defense.

Darren
09-15-2005, 11:44 AM
I believe that Gozo Shioda sensei once said that if it works then it is aikido

Kevin Leavitt
09-15-2005, 12:00 PM
Darren,

Completely understand what you are saying, and don't really mean to take it out of context...

Where I would have a problem with this comment by Gozo Shioda Sensei is if it was all inclusive of everything.

To me, at least, aikido is not a stylistic set of moves/techniques that we apply, but simply a training methodology that best conveys the philosophical intent of the founder and his disciples. Therefore, to me, that comment would never apply to any thing or any fight since you cannot label "this is aikido" and "this isn't aikido". It is simply a methodolgy for training.

so therefore, aikido principles may be applied in a fight...along with many other universal principles, but aikido itself can never work in a fight because there is no such thing as aikido in practical application.

It is pointless to say aikido works or does not work in a fight...it is the fighter who works or does not work in a fight.


That said, I am sure the Gozo Shioda Sensei meant that aikido must follow the correct universal principles, therefore if it works, then the technique is following the correct universal principles, therefore, it must be aikido. The logic of the argument is 100% correct. I am just saying you cannot label it aikido in a fight.

Hope this makes some sense!

Michael Neal
09-15-2005, 12:50 PM
Benjamin wrote:

You and me see eye to eye. Go back and look at many of my post...only you said it much better.

I think aikido or any martial art as a means of self defense or fighting is a waste of time for the reasons you state! There are many more effective ways.

To add, you have a higher chance of dying from high cholesterol and diet induced diseases, so you are better off practicing good nutrition and exercise as a form of self defense.

I completely agree. The main reason I do martial arts is for fun, exercise and the mental and physical challenges. However, if I am going to do a martial art for those mentioned things, I would prefer it be one that is more practical for self defense. It is very unlikely that I will ever have to use it in that way but the more benefits I can get out of my training the better.

rob_liberti
09-15-2005, 01:14 PM
There was a pretty good old story about some Japanese godan who was visiting his friends outside Japan and they asked him if aikido worked. He told them that he had no idea. So a couple guys started to throw punches at him and he was pleasantly suprised that it seemed to work just fine for him. I understand that the friends were probably not UFC guys, but it's a good story.

I am curious about that teacher of Robert John (check out his post in the open discussions) . The teacher doesn't speficially do aikido but he seems to have taken the body coordination of aikido to quite an advanced level and was able to handle an MT fighter fairly easily. Cool stuff.

Rob

SeiserL
09-16-2005, 08:45 AM
probably not UFC guys,
I was watching a Chuck Lidell UFC fight the other night. The commentators were taking about his great defense against take downs. As I watch him, IMHO, he seemed to pull when pushed and pushed when pulled over extending the attack and taking balance, then stepping off the line in a circular step and letting the attacker fall. Look pretty Aiki and effective to me.

rob_liberti
09-16-2005, 09:22 AM
Sure. My comment was that the Japanese Godan in that story was probably not hanging out with Chuck Lidell or anyone of his caliber. (And I suppose that the odds are really good that that level won't be randomly attacking you all that often!)

How was his posture? I like to turn when pushed, and enter when pulled myself. I got to try this in more of a randori with Jason Delucia and it was quite an experience (incredible posture). He is very good. I have to go visit him again!

Rob

djalley
09-16-2005, 11:21 AM
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.

Hi Joey,

I understand the feeling you must have when seeing Aikido for the first time, or trying it and hoping for the feeling of effectiveness to be gained from practicing the technique.

I'm not going to criticize you or your attitude like some other posters, just explain how I saw things. Maybe it will help, and if not, I hope you find what you are looking for.

I used to do TaeKwonDo and Aikido regularly. I dropped aikido to do TKD and practiced that for a few years. I've since dropped TKD mostly because of time constraints. TKD was great. The kicks and punches were quick, effective, and rather easily learned. With practice, even my crescrent kicks, axe kicks, and spinning back kicks were fast and accurate. The sense of empowerment was exhilerating and I really felt I was learning something. I was confident (and a little cocky, being younger) and in the best shape of my life.

TKD, and I suspect a few other martial arts have what I call a fast "ramp up". You learn the basic punches and kicks, and spend years perfecting them until they are muscle memory and as easily executed as breathing or tying your shoe. Your immediate gain from these arts are huge, and in time your technique is very effective.

Aikido is not one of these arts, at least not for me. The devil is in the details. How you hold your opponents arm, where you grab their limbs, the small angles to really bring the techniques into their most effective forms, take a very long time and a lot of patience to develop. It also must happen in a cooperative environment where you and your partner are dedicated to learning the technique effectively together, whereas in TKD exercise such as sparring are more adversarial in nature. I call this a slow "ramp up" because it really does take years and lots of cooperation to develop them to their maximum potential. Maximizing the art is what makes it effective, and that comes in a long time, not a shorter time like other arts. This does not mean that Aikido only works if your oppenent cooperates, but that you need a cooperating partner to learn the moves well.

Ultimately, my point is that in the time it takes to master Aikido to its most effective state, the Aikido practitioner has aged, possibly by a decade or two, and no longer considers the "tough-guy" and "effective fighting" approach to be important. There is so much physical to learn in Aikido, and really the whole time it's your mental prowess that is growing.

A lot of people see combat tournaments unwise or childish displays of ego. But like you, I agree that Aikido as a martial art should be able to hold its own in the ring against other arts, and I'm sure there are practitioners out there that can make that happen, but the time to make it to effective levels of Aikido tempers the ego and the need to prove one's self in contest.

The early developers of Aikido had other martial arts backgrounds. Most were coming from karate backgrounds, and Aikido was developed as an extension to this. For a true understanding of the martial arts, I believe Aikido DOES need to be supplemented with karate or another art. Otherwise, to me its somewhat akin to painting or photography. You can buy the equipment, go to the same place Ansel Adams went, and take the same picture he did. What have you accomplished? You copied someone. The early practicioners of Aikido EARNED their aikido through the understanding and extrapolation of their previous arts and their years of knowledge and practice. We copy what they developed. And we spend years learning what they developed so that we may better ourselves and our understanding. But in my eyes, to truly develop as a martial artist I think needs to go back and explore these roots of their previous martial arts, too. One must see where they have come from so that they can see where they are going.

Are you training for UFC, or just trying to be the best MA you can be and want to expand your horizons? I know a few guys that are "belt-baggers", who learn an art like TKD and quickly go get other black belts in karate, JKD, etc with the kick/punch knowledge. They're seeking title over effectiveness in my opinion, because they're not really gaining that much more from the similar arts, but that's them.

From your boxing and wrestling background you mentioned, I think aikido would be a great addition to your "arsenal", but please trust me on this, it's not something you can go in for a year and master, expect at least 5 years before you feel some "martial effectiveness" feelings, especially at your level of awareness of these things, but it will come, and I think you'll see the wisdom in the art, and when you see the means of utterly controlling someone and yet not hurting them at all, you'll realize the supremacy of the art in its final forms. I'm not there yet by any means, and may never make it, but I strive for it.

Good luck to you. Osu!

DJA

Zato Ichi
09-16-2005, 11:42 AM
Hi Joey,

THIS IS A FIVE YEAR THREAD STARTED BY A TROLL!!! FOR GOD'S SAKE, LET IT DIE!!!!! JOEY HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!!!!

This thing's like one of the undead... no matter how much punishment you deal, it just keeps shambling forward. Stupid zombies.

wendyrowe
09-16-2005, 12:00 PM
Hi Joey,
THIS IS A FIVE YEAR THREAD STARTED BY A TROLL!!! FOR GOD'S SAKE, LET IT DIE!!!!! JOEY HAS LEFT THE BUILDING!!!!

OK, so Donald Alley should have read the date more carefully before posting. But it's a topic that never dies, so at least if it's here you know this is the Zombie Thread and you don't have to read it.

As for me, even though Joey's left the party I'm still enjoying the discussion. Every once in a while, someone (e.g. Lynn Seiser just now) pops up with a new insight based on recent occurrences.

JasonFDeLucia
09-16-2005, 08:20 PM
I was watching a Chuck Lidell UFC fight the other night. The commentators were taking about his great defense against take downs. As I watch him, IMHO, he seemed to pull when pushed and pushed when pulled over extending the attack and taking balance, then stepping off the line in a circular step and letting the attacker fall. Look pretty Aiki and effective to me.
i agree completely .chuck liddell is one of my favorite fighters ,very aiki .

NixNa
09-17-2005, 01:58 AM
Zombie thread but nevertheless alive and kickin. After reading through posts, i really applaud the maturity of some of the posters here. I do not have extensive technical knowledge on aikido like many of you do (having been an on/off aikidoka), but basing on wot i know thru my previous experiences with various other arts and a keen interest in anything martial, i kinda do agree on DJA's insight - aikido as an extention of previous arts.

Like many things, i wouldn't wanna go into combat with only a basic set of skills, and with that im a true believer of MMA, or at least supplementing aikido with basic knowledge of striking and grappling. I used to be given these advices time n time again:

1. Any modern m.artist shld at least have 6 mths of boxing training.
2. Never enter the ground with a grappler unless you can swim, for the ground is the sea and they r the sharks.

Im sure its the same familiar lines to many of you, but i still swear by it. Well, tis is an old discussion that will probably never ever end, its the same old stuffs round and round again. Train hard.

Just my 2 cents' worth.
In gassho.

Ps. Btw will anyone be kind enough to let me know if i can get a video of Chuck Lidell in action? Help is much appreciated if u do.

wendyrowe
09-17-2005, 07:40 AM
Ps. Btw will anyone be kind enough to let me know if i can get a video of Chuck Lidell in action? Help is much appreciated if u do.
If you're willing to pay, sherdog.com sells UFC videos at their store. The latest UFC was 54 (Liddell vs. Horn), but the most recent I saw on the site so far was 52 (Liddell vs. Couture) -- so 54 will probably be there after a while. Chuck Liddell was in some older ones, too; I don't know whether Lynn was referring to 54 or an earlier one (Lynn?). The shows are available on PayPerView TV so you could plan ahead and watch an upcoming one, but Liddell's not listed on the card for UFC55.

I didn't see any video clips on Sherdog or by Googling; looks like they're saving Liddell footage for the DVD's.

SeiserL
09-17-2005, 03:39 PM
I don't know whether Lynn was referring to 54 or an earlier one (Lynn?).
I have to admit, I don't know which match I noticed this in.

I watch all the MMA/NHB stuff I can, have a lot on disk, and catch the cable sport channels when they show it. Like I've said, I am glad it wasn't around when I was young enough to get involved.

Must admit, because I am personally rather concept application oriented, rather than just techniques and labels, I see Aiki used a lot. DeLucia is the only one I have heard admit it though. (Compliments, appreciations, and respect given)

Remember, a block can be a lock, can be a blow, can be a throw.

crbateman
09-17-2005, 11:33 PM
Like I've said, I am glad it wasn't around when I was young enough to get involved.Glad of it, Lynn-san. You have instead put your "gray matter" to much better use...

emma.mason15
09-18-2005, 07:05 PM
I find Aikido perfect for escaping situations beyond my control ....
I cant go "kicking peoples arses in the hospital .... i wouldnt have a job very long ..." ... and alot of my patients are elderly ... and loopy! (yes thats a technical term! :p )
so just learning how to remove MY hand from their grip is invaluable ....
so ... i dunno .... never having BEEN in a fight .... (or not one where im not plastered and end up just takin a royal beating) ... i couldnt comment ...
but for dealing wiv bad situations .... it rocks .... and isnt that the whole point? ... to stop a fight before it starts?

Akhilleus
09-19-2005, 02:08 AM
Umm...does this person actually think that UFC represents a "streetfight"? What foolishness. It's a sporting event, and like all sporting events it has RULES. Get these UFC people in a TKD sporting event and guess who wins?

BJJ does not = you becoming a good "streetfighter".it means that in the real world while you fight your oponnent you will do as trained and head to the ground and possibly get BITTEN, GOUGED, and other things that are not allowed in the UFC which I guranteed you find in the real world. How will this help you get to safety? How will this help you if he has friends who wouldnt mind kicking you while you're down?

Basing the validity of a martial art on a sporting event is stupid, your post is stupid. You honestly don't know the difference between "fighting" "selfdefense" and "martial arts"

Read this: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

That is written by a man who has spent much time on the "streets" and wishes to share his knowledge. He is NOT about teaching sports or how to fight in one, but rather how to get out of a situation and LIVE. That's what Aikido is about. Life (among other things). You find your self in a situation that obviously you dont want to be in, use what you've learned and what you do wont be "Aikido" but the accumalation of what you have learned about your limitations and the way the body works, so in essence i'm saying that even though you learn Ikkyo in the dojo this technique is just a tool to teach you how the body works in that given situation. You will apply it when needed outside the dojo much differently but none the less effectively according to how much this "tool" has taught you.

All in all, this is another stupid trolling thread made a person who believes one system can superior to the other and obviously he belongs to it. Good job, you not only made your self look like an ass, but you made alot of good people respond to your trolling.

wendyrowe
09-19-2005, 06:06 AM
Umm...does this person actually think that UFC represents a "streetfight"? What foolishness. It's a sporting event, and like all sporting events it has RULES...All in all, this is another stupid trolling thread made a person who believes one system can superior to the other and obviously he belongs to it. Good job, you not only made your self look like an ass, but you made alot of good people respond to your trolling.

Speaking of trolling: it doesn't really matter what the first poster intended. The discussion has evolved and has brought up some good points.

I think the main point, as some of us have discussed elsewhere, is that even though people had better not forget that there's a big difference between sporting events and "The Street," people who train seriously with a wide variety of committed attacks are better prepared to face real aggression than those who train with just kata, without really committed attacks, and with no groundwork.

The idea re BJJ or another groundwork systems is that although you don't WANT to be on the ground, you might end up there and had better have some idea how to do something.

Also, you are wrong if you think that seriously trained MMA fighters would be helpless in The Street. Those of us who have worked with them know that their training extends well beyond just what they need under sporting rules. Casual cross-training won't give the average person a huge edge in a street fight, and being a wrestling or judo tournament champ might not be enough to make you the automatic winner on The Street; but it is not reasonable to extrapolate from that to say that top MMA fighters would not fare well outside the ring and therefore we have nothing to learn from their mindset and technique.

CarlRylander
09-19-2005, 07:07 AM
Aikido MUST be some good, as they teach it's holds and nerve points to policemen and bouncers.
It's a way off immobilising someone without hitting them. It must be some use!

Mark Uttech
09-19-2005, 09:09 AM
aikido is more about replacing burned out lightbulbs...

CNYMike
09-19-2005, 12:26 PM
.....The idea re BJJ or another groundwork systems is that although you don't WANT to be on the ground, you might end up there and had better have some idea how to do something.


Yes, that is the argument I've had from my instructors in favor of grappling. I think it's worth noting that it's not a question of WANTING to go to the ground, but to have tools in the even that happens.



Also, you are wrong if you think that seriously trained MMA fighters would be helpless in The Street .....

I don't know; the Street can be pretty mean, esepcially when volume is heavy and the Dow .... oh, I thought you meant Wall Street. My bad. :p :D

Seriously, although I don't think MMA guys would be helpless in real life, I've never gone along with the "ground fighting = street fighting" point of view mainly because the guys I knew when I started MA 20 years ago who had street experience did no such thing. Yes, they confounded me with things I hadn't been formally trained for when we sparred, but they were mainly fakes and low kicks. Taking me down, mounting and choking out or going for juji gatame never happened. Yes, this was before BJJ came on the scene in the US in a big way. But have things really changed so much?

It's also worth noting that martial artists are rare in our society -- up to 90% of people who start quit within a year. And when you talk about things like BJJ, Shoot, Thai Boxing, Kali systems and Silat sytems, those are rarities within rarities. So the odds of bumping into -- let alone fighting -- another martial artist on the street are pretty bad; bumping into a trained grappler are even worse. It may not seem that way if you hang with those guys, but that's a fact.

From reading MA magazines over the years, I've observed that every martial art is backed by people who say it works. That includes Aikido, and there have been posts to that effect in this thread. If someone who's never done anything other than "aiki dance" aikido uses it to surive a real life situation, I, for one, will not tell them that they got lucky or that it shouldn't have worked or that their oponent/attacker was a loser but if it had been trained fighter it would have been different. If it worked, it worked, and that's the end of the discussion.

Having said all that, there's no harm in learning grappling regardless of whether you ever use it; I've had some exposure to it over the years and you get used to it. The only down side to cross training in grappling or anything else related to the JKD concepts world is you double the number of seminars you can go to. Trust me -- I've been trying to figure out who's crazier about seminars, Aikido people or JKD/Kali/SE Asian systems/grappling people. Right now it looks neck-and-neck.

Does that answer your question?

What was the question? :D

Kevin Leavitt
09-19-2005, 12:41 PM
lots of assumptions and concepts floating around about "street fighting". ... What is street fighting? I am really curious to see what parameters, paradigms, and assumptions that everyone has about what street fighitng is all about, and what/when do you see yourself involved in them?

I find it interesting that aikido people spend a great deal of time trying to "let go" of assumptions/presumptions that are formed in their mind when trying to "do" or react to an attacker (establishing mushin)...but you mention the words "STREET FIGHT" and everything goes out the window!

We seem to establish an emotion around the concept of street fighting and develop scenarios in our mind that we fear or think that we might end up in. Then we judge our martial art, or other arts against the situations/emotions we make in our minds.

I have found most of them to be irrational and wrong. Therefore establishing our judgements about our training and effectiveness as wrong.

Think about it....could your whole emotional context and framework about what you think your martial skills are based on could be WRONG???

To me, it really meditating hard on conflict and engagement really turned my perspective around on martial arts and why we need to study them.

So, what do you really see as STREET FIGHTING?

wendyrowe
09-19-2005, 01:07 PM
Seriously, although I don't think MMA guys would be helpless in real life, I've never gone along with the "ground fighting = street fighting" point of view
I haven't heard anyone make an informed argument that "ground fighting = street fighting." But from the structure of your sentence, it looks like you're equating MMA with ground fighting. True, there are currently lots more Jujitsu guys than other TMA guys -- but JJ has standup, too. And there are still fights won on strikes and kicks, not everyone goes to the ground. Take a look at some of Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic's fights to see some really powerful standup, and there are lots of others who are perfectly comfortable staying on their feet.

But since they're allowed to go to the ground and they know their opponent doesn't have friends waiting to join the fray, a strong grappler will try to take down someone with strong standup skills to take the advantage. That's definitely just because it's a sport, and sport fighters need to do what people like to see that will let them win.

We seem to establish an emotion around the concept of street fighting and develop scenarios in our mind that we fear or think that we might end up in. Then we judge our martial art, or other arts against the situations/emotions we make in our minds...So, what do you really see as STREET FIGHTING?

Here's the thread I started on Martial Arts Planet in a similar discussion, after an item by blogger Brian Jones on Aikido Journal pointed me to the Bureau of Justice Statistics site:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36652

What it boiled down to was that in the US you've only got a 2.3% chance of being attacked and 76% of those attacks will be unarmed; and, there's roughly a half chance or better that you'll know your attacker. Only about half the violent crimes are reported, but it's probably reasonable to assume that violent crimes committed with weapons are more likely to be reported than simple assaults. It doesn't say how many attackers there were per victim, but judging from the detail in the reporting it seems likely that if a significant percentage of attacks were roving gangs preying on individuals, there would be a category for "Multiple Attackers."

Really, though, I suspect most of us here aren't training just so we'll be able to defend ourselves against whatever attacks we expect we might be subjected to in Real Life. I feel that my training helps me cope with a wide variety of situations (physical, mental and emotional), and a benefit of that might be that I would do better in a physically threatening situation than someone with no training (or a deer in the headlights).

SeiserL
09-19-2005, 01:14 PM
I am really curious to see what parameters, paradigms, and assumptions that everyone has about what street fighitng is all about, and what/when do you see yourself involved in them?
IMHO,
street = location
fighting = physical conflict with intent to do harm
parameters = none
paradigms = none
assumptions = none
when = a long time ago, growing up in Detroit, when I was really young and really stupid

We won't even go into the military (Army 72-74) combat scenarios.

djyoung
09-19-2005, 01:17 PM
Although I have yet to start Aikido (*sigh*... ) I have been doing some sparring with a group of martial arts guys recently from various different styles. What I have noticed is that they do boxing style sparring in preparation for 'a street fight' and they believe that is what they will be up against. I dont see this as being the case.

I haven't been in many fights myself, mostly school yard scuffles, but they always used to start out as someone grabbing a shirt and pushing or pulling then eventually breaking off and swinging a wild punch. I can also not particularly imagine too many muggers asking for money and jewellery armed with nothing but their fists and some boxing skills... "give me your money or ill box your ears in!", the average thug is not so brave and most martial artists would not be such criminals (hopefully). I can however imagine many fights starting, at least, from a situation such as being grabbed, pulled, bear hugged, held whilst another strikes, or being faced by a knife weilding opponent ready to make a lunge.

I would imagine that many of the martial arts (jujitsu, aikido etc.) more focused toward throws, locks, holds... would be well equiped for such a situation.

As to wether Aikido would work in a real fight... well isnt any martial art only really a set of theories on how to do something? A martial art is more than just a set of techniques, you should always be able to extend the art to suit the situation. As many have said all martial arts are different paths to the same mountain top.

Roy Dean
09-19-2005, 04:38 PM
If you're interested in seeing "real fights," check out "World's Wildest Streetfights" Volumes 1 and 2. The typical MO is grab and punch, often resulting in both parties being off balanced and ending up on the ground.

Roy Dean

SeiserL
09-19-2005, 04:58 PM
If you're interested in seeing "real fights," check out "World's Wildest Streetfights" Volumes 1 and 2. The typical MO is grab and punch, often resulting in both parties being off balanced and ending up on the ground.
Who said that training off a grab was a waste of time because no one ever grabs in a "real" fight?

Roy Dean
09-19-2005, 05:21 PM
Who said that training off a grab was a waste of time because no one ever grabs in a "real" fight?

Exactly. In these fights, they usually blow through all kinds of attacks and ranges, quickly and unpredictably. They might start off in striking range, then go to clinch range, grab and wildly swing like madmen (or women), fall down to the ground, get up from the ground, kick, stomp, run, tackle, and everything else under the sun. Total chaos. I found it to be pretty eye opening.

CNYMike
09-19-2005, 08:52 PM
I haven't heard anyone make an informed argument that "ground fighting = street fighting." ....


IIRC, I read a print article seven or eight years ago in which a gentleman said he would go into grappling mode in a street fight, so he equated grappling with street fighting. So that's where the "grappling = street fighting" comes from. Also there are the posts on the 'net where the author claims MMA matches are close to reality, a point that is in dispute, obviously. So that's where that'c coming from.

Akhilleus
09-19-2005, 10:35 PM
I wrote my reply out of anger, so un aiki I know =[

They're is just so many people out there equating UFC to the real world. While I understand grappling has its place and is a great art, placing full faith in it because its a style that is effective in a sporting event is foolhearty. I can see the benefits of studying this style, but coming to the conclusion that it is superior to another art is taking a step backwards......this is the last I'll post here....so long as I dont see another "AIKIDO DOESN'T WORK! UFC SHOWS IT LIKE IT IS!" bah. Chances are I'll see 1000000 of those. Oh wells, back to ukemi behbeh.

djyoung
09-20-2005, 01:43 AM
Doesnt UFC stand for Ultimately Fake Crap? :freaky:
Untrained FistiCuffs?
Until Fools Collide?
Unrealistic Fighting Competition?

Dont stress Frank, many (most?) martial artists have great disdain for the UFC.

sutemaker17
09-20-2005, 01:56 AM
IMHO,
street = location
fighting = physical conflict with intent to do harm
parameters = none
paradigms = none
assumptions = none
when = a long time ago, growing up in Detroit, when I was really young and really stupid

We won't even go into the military (Army 72-74) combat scenarios.

Great post Lynn.
Thanks,
Jason

DaveO
09-20-2005, 10:29 AM
Doesnt UFC stand for Ultimately Fake Crap? :freaky:
Untrained FistiCuffs?
Until Fools Collide?
Unrealistic Fighting Competition?

Dont stress Frank, many (most?) martial artists have great disdain for the UFC.

Then they're fools.

The UFC, controversial as it is, is a superb venue for MMA contest. The men that step into the Octagon are at the top of their respective fields and deserve a bit more respect, thank you.

djalley
09-20-2005, 10:46 AM
OK, so Donald Alley should have read the date more carefully before posting. But it's a topic that never dies, so at least if it's here you know this is the Zombie Thread and you don't have to read it.



Holy smokes you're right! I saw it at the top of the forum discussion and assumed it was a current discussion. I'm not the resurrector of the thread, but I should have read the dates, to be sure.

My opinions on the matter, however, stand. :)

DJA

Kevin Leavitt
09-20-2005, 03:55 PM
David, I would not say that.

I would say that it is a competition with rules however.

Same as most street fights that are described by Roy Dean which are ego based situation where people get mad at each other and decide to express their emotions physically. Three is no real intent typically to render the individual dead or seriously injured...at least no pre-meditated attack. I'd say for most of us, the power is within us to avoid such situations.

I like Wendy Rowe's comments which decribe violent assaults which is more along the lines of what is really what we need to be concerned with, that which we will not know, will not see, and what we will have very little control over and are usually taken by suprise. I don't characterize these as street fights, which, again...I find mostly avoidable.

mathewjgano
09-20-2005, 10:00 PM
lots of assumptions and concepts floating around about "street fighting". ... What is street fighting? I am really curious to see what parameters, paradigms, and assumptions that everyone has about what street fighitng is all about, and what/when do you see yourself involved in them?

I find it interesting that aikido people spend a great deal of time trying to "let go" of assumptions/presumptions that are formed in their mind when trying to "do" or react to an attacker (establishing mushin)...but you mention the words "STREET FIGHT" and everything goes out the window!


I like your approach here. Regardless of whether or not some people are tired of this thread yet feel compelled to remind us of this fact, and regardless of what conceptions people may have about one art or another, the core of this issue is valid...in my opinion at least. We ought consider everything we can. One person's assumptions about any given thing are perhaps merely an opportunity to consider something new or even consider something old as if it were new. All that said:
I think "street fighting" is simply no-rules fighting. I think when people think of it as simply as that and try to prepare accordingly (for anything, in other words) then, well, that's as good as it gets. I grew up with friends who's idea of a good time was fighting. Some were simply good at placing one good punch while taking a beating, and some were more tricky...yet others were best when their friends weren't far behind. I've known people to get stabbed and shot and so from this I know pretty much anything can happen. In short, a street fight is dangerous to everyone near by it and sometimes far away, whether by space or time when you consider that some people remember faces very well or will try and pay back one person for the actions of another. With this in mind, we as martial artists ought seek as complete a perspective as possible and try to work on our ability to coordinate as potent and flexible a response as we can possibly muster. Each step in this path is less important than the next one. I'm not speaking of technique and basics here, but saying that it doesn't matter what art you study so long as you continually try to improve and learn/refine yourself, mind body and spirit...or whatever one may happen to view as the ultimate truth of reality. All we can do is our best with what we have at our disposal and this goes for our perspective, the experiences it comes from and our physical and mental tools we use to interact with the world around us.
Ganbatte!
Matt

DaveO
09-21-2005, 04:24 PM
David, I would not say that.

I would say that it is a competition with rules however.

Same as most street fights that are described by Roy Dean which are ego based situation where people get mad at each other and decide to express their emotions physically. Three is no real intent typically to render the individual dead or seriously injured...at least no pre-meditated attack. I'd say for most of us, the power is within us to avoid such situations.

I like Wendy Rowe's comments which decribe violent assaults which is more along the lines of what is really what we need to be concerned with, that which we will not know, will not see, and what we will have very little control over and are usually taken by suprise. I don't characterize these as street fights, which, again...I find mostly avoidable.

Oh; I don't for a second support UFC as 'street-value'; I think prior posts I've made on that subject fairly adequately describe my opinions on the matter.

(That said; someone with the physical condition, training, reflexes and experience with dealing with force required for the UFC is more likely to have a decent shot of defending himself over one who has none of the above.)

However; I strongly disagree with anyone passing off the UFC as stupid or pointless. Or, to use the described words,
'Fake', 'Unrealistic', 'Untrained fools' etc. My personal belief is if someone wants to disparage the UFC - or any other sort of competition, style, group, organization etc. he'd better be willing to walk a mile in their shoes. :)

djyoung
09-22-2005, 02:20 AM
No offense but they are amusing variations on the acronym UFC... they are intended to be humorous and lighten the mood. Im sorry if you take them so seriously.

And as for what I said about real martial artists having disdain for UFC, I would say that a real martial artist by most definitions is not interested in sport, they train for life, health, street defence etc. So all the trumped up claims of the UFC being realistic street fighting is something to cringe at.

All that being said, learn to laugh more, it'll add years to your life!

CNYMike
09-23-2005, 03:59 PM
(That said; someone with the physical condition, training, reflexes and experience with dealing with force required for the UFC is more likely to have a decent shot of defending himself over one who has none of the above.)


AFAIK, the guys I knew back in the day with real world/street experince didn't have that level of training conditioning, but they still lived to talk about it.

Then again, over the years, I've had some exposure to the kind of structures MMA guys play with, so I'm not against it, either.

You want to do it, fine; you don't, don't. Train the way you want to train; no sense getting steamed over it.

Kevin Leavitt
09-25-2005, 04:39 PM
I can tell you this, 10 years ago I was "owning" "street/NHB" fighters with traditonal Martial art skills, today that is not the case.

Like it or not, UFC changed a huge paradiqm in the way dudes are training in MMA. I know it has changed much in how I now approach my martial training. You need a much broader skill set in order to impress those that are really serious about being "all they can be".

This statement should not be construed as discrediting traditional martial arts...they have their place, and are as relevant today as they ever have been....just not necessarily in all situations or venues.

In training Infantymen, we tend to emphasize, MMA, or grappling skills. When training MPs for civil issues, I find that aikido type skills to be more appropriate.

In training both, however, it is NOT an aikido class, but appropriate martial techniques derived around particlular situations/scenarios that are "high probability" things they might incur in their jobs. The skills taught/emphasized are those those that seem to work best for them.

In aikido, we typically are not training for a particular scenario or fight, but for the sake of understanding the principles of aikido which center around the "way of harmony"...skills learned are their to demonstrate princples of the founder. Certainly they can be applied to specific situations.

I think though, once you start focusing on these scenarios such as street fighting, you have now left the realm of aikido and are now entering a new one that requires you to truely understand the "rules of engagement" that you wish to focus on in order to best mitigate the risk you seek to avoid, or the "competition" you seek to win.

Whatever it is, it is NOT AIKIDO!

Have a nice day all!

aikido funky monkey
09-25-2005, 05:47 PM
I dont thinkyou at the very top have evry really studied aikido. first of all an aikidoka doesnt fight, (he,or she) flows with the attackers attack. second ,if studied thuroughly enough, aikido can stop any attack.third I dare you to tell me an attack that cant be stopped by aikido

Savlu
09-25-2005, 07:26 PM
what does UFC means?

NixNa
09-25-2005, 08:55 PM
UFC stands for Ultimate Fighting Championship. Check tis out for some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship
and the Official site is here: http://www.ufc.tv/

Jorx
09-26-2005, 01:43 AM
I dont thinkyou at the very top have evry really studied aikido. first of all an aikidoka doesnt fight, (he,or she) flows with the attackers attack. second ,if studied thuroughly enough, aikido can stop any attack.third I dare you to tell me an attack that cant be stopped by aikido

:)

Dear Kyle, of course any attack THEROETICALLY can. But it is the question of PRACTICE.

But for example: Aikido has NO ground techniques. I have yet to experience an aikido dojo which practices against leg tackles. Etc.

Given the fact that usually in Aikido it takes decades to come to understanding of principles and to move on to more realistic attacks you would probably die of old age before being able to "study aikido throughly enough".


Zombiemania!

bogglefreak20
09-26-2005, 05:18 AM
:)
Given the fact that usually in Aikido it takes decades to come to understanding of principles and to move on to more realistic attacks you would probably die of old age before being able to "study aikido throughly enough".


As they say: "Fear a karateka at 40, a judoka at 60 and an aikidoka at 80." :D

PeterR
09-26-2005, 05:19 AM
If it takes you that long to learn Aikido you have a poor teacher.

Kevin Leavitt
09-26-2005, 06:53 AM
I agree Peter. What is hard to agree on though is what you actually are learning and why. I mean philsophically it may take someone a short amount of time to "learn" the lessons of aikido. Skill wise you can become fairly proficient quickly as well, especially if you are young and athletically inclined.

However, I think the synthesis of being able to the mental, physical, and spritual aspects AND being able to teach them to others (which IMHO, should be the goal of mastery), could take much longer.

It may also take you much longer (or not) to learn how to apply aikido widely across a spectrum of situations from "real life", to being a Shihan

I suppose it really depends on your perspective about what "learning" aikido really is all about.

As far as working in a fight....I am really stumped to be honest. Not sure why someone would approach aikido as an efficient methodolgy to study "fighting" since aikido really is not aligned with that paradigm (whatever it may be). I think in these situations, you need to pick your focus of risk and/or situations, and adapt/focus your training on those things that are "high probability" for your particular situation.

I know I am being repetitive, but that does not align or is not aikido in my book.

I think how you define learning aikido is based on personal perspective. That said, to learn the basics of aikido, should only take a few years to master (become profiecient) the rote techniques.

Pierre Rood
09-26-2005, 11:51 PM
Hi All,

I think Aikido is one of the best fighting arts because of its heritage in samourai tradition. It's the essence of effectivity and efficiency from hundreds of years of practice and combat.

I feel that Aikido prepares you for the real horror of bloody fighting by transforming you mentally in speed and agility itself.

I feel that Aikido tries to accomodate the 'all out' streetfighting which is in us all when in a life and death situation.
It tries to form a shield of reflexes and calmness and "knowing what to do" at unconscious level that effienctly uses the pure energy of the "crazyness" of the real fight and thus multiplies the effectivity of our natural streetfighting ability.

But Aikido teaches this in a kind of hidden manner, like the karate kid having to paint the wall. I very much trust in the "Do", as well the fighting side as the spiritual side.

Many things in Aikido are unique psychological principles, which will you learn to avoid the brutal way's of conflict and learn to live with others in harmonious way's.

Patrick Crane
09-28-2005, 09:14 PM
I blame Hollywood, male machismo, and unresolved "playground bully" issues for this whole thread.

Guys like Norris, VanDamme and Steven what-Dan-is-he-this-week Seagal can't seem to get through an hour and a half movie without getting into at least two or three "street" fights.....probably being attacked by disgruntled dialogue coaches.
Funny, I haven't been in a "fight" since I was 12.

If a bully at school demands your milk money, say "no."
If he hits you hit him back.
It has nothing to do with aikido, martial arts or "street" fighting technique.
It's psych 101.....the kid simply needs to learn, the hard way, where the behavioral boundaries are.

A valid point has been raised, asking what exactly is a "street" fight anyway?
How many of us are gang members out looking to rumble?..........lol.......if your life is a stupid Michael Jackson video, get a new life.
How many of us are Navy SEAL's or Texas Rangers?......lol........Hollywood again.
So what really is a "street" fight?
It's when your husband comes home drunk (again) and decides to take his frustrations out on you (again).
It's when your date decides it's time to go "all the way" whether you want to or not.
For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination.........unless you happen to be the over-agressive date (for whom I have no sympathy) who doesn't realize she's a shodan, and end up getting your wrist broken.

aikigirl10
09-28-2005, 09:18 PM
I blame Hollywood, male machismo, and unresolved "playground bully" issues for this whole thread.

Guys like Norris, VanDamme and Steven what-Dan-is-he-this-week Seagal can't seem to get through an hour and a half movie without getting into at least two or three "street" fights.....probably being attacked by disgruntled dialogue coaches.
Funny, I haven't been in a "fight" since I was 12.

If a bully at school demands your milk money, say "no."
If he hits you hit him back.
It has nothing to do with aikido, martial arts or "street" fighting technique.
It's psych 101.....the kid simply needs to learn, the hard way, where the behavioral boundaries are.

A valid point has been raised, asking what exactly is a "street" fight anyway?
How many of us are gang members out looking to rumble?..........lol.......if your life is a stupid Michael Jackson video, get a new life.
How many of us are Navy SEAL's or Texas Rangers?......lol........Hollywood again.
So what really is a "street" fight?
It's when your husband comes home drunk (again) and decides to take his frustrations out on you (again).
It's when your date decides it's time to go "all the way" whether you want to or not.
For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination.........unless you happen to be the over-agressive date (for whom I have no sympathy) who doesn't realize she's a shodan, and end up getting your wrist broken.

Awesome post!

SeiserL
09-28-2005, 10:07 PM
IA valid point has been raised, asking what exactly is a "street" fight anyway?

How many of us are gang members out looking to rumble?
How many of us are Navy Seal's or Texas Rangers?

So what really is a "street" fight?
It's when your husband comes home drunk (again) and decides to take his frustrations out on you (again).
It's when your date decides it's time to go "all the way" whether you want to or not.
For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination.........unless you happen to be the over-aggressive date (for whom I have no sympathy) who doesn't realize she's a shodan, and end up getting your wrist broken.

Does an ex-biker from Detroit and Army veteran count? As a counselor I have worked a lot of domestic violence and sexual assault cases. There is a reality to the streets. Combat, domestic violence, and rape is not IMHO a "street fight." The next time I have a victim I'll let them know that its just a "figment of our imagination".

I guess you can be grateful that the streets are only in your imagination. For some of us, it has been a reality. For others, it still is.

Kenneth Baņares
09-28-2005, 10:38 PM
Let's give it a rest people........ it's the martial artist not the martial arts. There is no one "invincible truly effective martial art". Let's stop questioning if aikido works or not. Just keep on training so you'll be ready when the situation comes.

rob_liberti
09-28-2005, 10:40 PM
Umm, who are these limp-wristed, flower-loving, date-gropers who are getting their wrists broken by shodans? Are there really shodans who are snapping men's wrists in out-of-the-dojo situations? I think aikido can really work and all, but maybe we are giving a little too much faith in the ability of someone who has just started learning anything about aikido...

Rob

c ryan
09-28-2005, 11:58 PM
Interesting that you are able to make deductive statements about something like the practical uses of aikido. While I am not a professional athlete, I have fought competitively in IKF under full contact rules, in karate and, unfortunately, in "street" conditions. While training in boxing, kick boxing and karate, in every instance of self defense I utilized aikido. Ultimate fighting is a sport, specifically trained for, and casual training in any art is insufficient. To compare self defense aikido to ultimate fighting is, to me, like asking a white belt to take a dan examination.

mathewjgano
09-29-2005, 02:17 AM
If a bully at school demands your milk money, say "no."
If he hits you hit him back.
It has nothing to do with aikido, martial arts or "street" fighting technique.
It's psych 101.....the kid simply needs to learn, the hard way, where the behavioral boundaries are.


I don't follow how this is related to whether or not Aikido (or any other martial art) is a viable option for self-defense. Also, simply hitting someone back seems like a short-sighted action that has gotten some people even more hurt. I've seen it played out. I would argue even a school-yard bully hitting you has everything to do with martial arts...especially considering many kids these days fancy theselves "thugs" and practically live for a fight. Yeah, sure, show them they can't push you around, but there's a lot more to it than simply hitting them back. Some people, when you hit them back, only have more to prove and will take things to extreams and some of them have very dangerous friends and know where you live. Rare? Yeah, but they're out there and people ought think before simply fighting with them, thinking that will teach them a lesson. Whether I'm right or wrong on specifics such as this matters little, but the consideration of issues like these are exactly what martial arts are all about, thus I think it has everything to do with them.
Take care,
Matt

Kevin Leavitt
09-29-2005, 02:27 AM
Lynn,

I believe I understand Mr Crane's post. I don't think he meant to imply, (nor did/do I) that violence is a figment of the imagination, simply that what most of us romanticize about MA in general will prepare us for in the since of our expectations of physical/technical skills.

As you know, I contend that MA actually do very little in the way of preparing us technically for what occurs in a violent altercation and if that is your focus, that is....to reduce or mitigate risk of harm to yourself, there are many more better ways to do this than rolling around a dojo.

All I ever ask of people is to "let go" or really think/meditate seriously on the subject to make sure they truely clear their minds of the paradiqms/expections of what an assailant will present, as it is , as Mr. Crane stated, probably a "figment of your imagination".

I do think, though, that MA offers us a great deal holistically in order to prepare for or prevent violence. Does that seem like a contradiction based on what I just wrote? A little, but I the key to it is the word holisitically. It can give us Mushin, it can help us with our awareness, help us see things that we never noticed about ourselves and others, it can serve as a method to heal us emotionally before and after a violent assault. It can mentally and physically harden us and make us a "hard" target versus a "soft" target.

It can also help us develop the appropriate responses for "fight or flight". However, focusing on particular scenarios or techniques for most of us is probably not time well spent.

Lynn, I know I am not telling you anthing you don't know about already though, but thought it was a good point to discuss or clarify these things.

Thanks!

Ron Tisdale
09-29-2005, 08:08 AM
Nice post Kevin.

Best,
Ron

SeiserL
09-29-2005, 09:09 AM
Lynn, I know I am not telling you anthing you don't know about already though, but thought it was a good point to discuss or clarify these things.
Kevin,
Total agreement. Discussion and clarification refines a topic like training with genuine and honest intent and intensity refines a technique. That's what I love about these threads and forums, my home dojo and mat, and cross-training with others.

IMHO, it isn't whether there is violence in the world, its how close in proximity it is to your street. It isn't whether Aikido works in a fight, its can you get out of the way and let it work for you.

elastoman
09-29-2005, 10:18 PM
Hi all, this is my first post
Talking about real figths, as everybody sayd before, jiu jitsu is as real as a dream world
Or you think that, in a real figth, life or death situation you can say to the guy :"finger in the eye, brake fingers, kick in the eggs are against the rules" ??????

Pierre Rood
09-30-2005, 01:06 AM
I blame Hollywood, male machismo, and unresolved "playground bully" issues for this whole thread...Funny, I haven't been in a "fight" since I was 12...So what really is a "street" fight?...For men, for the most part, a "street" fight is a figment of our imagination

Congratulations, you live in paradise no doubt. :rolleyes:

But here on friday and saturday late night in the city centers you are not safe as a man alone, drunk youth are looking for trouble and you have the chance getting beaten up or worse. Just for the kick of it. Now and then some one gets killed during these 'group events'.

As a women alone, it is not safe any day of the week when on the street late at night. Even in our village we try to make sure our daughter is never alone when coming home from a night out. Even in a street away for the bars you can hit upon someone, mostly drunk, possible horny, coming from there.
In the city nearby you are as a woman sure to get harassed if not molested in the weekend nights. Certain groups of youth are very dangerous to bump into.


So there is your street scene. :( Now why is it important whether Aikido really works or not?

Because some (not myself) rely on a martial art for self defence and security. And then Aikido would be a dangerous lie if it would not work.

Since I noticed the enormous insecurity by aikidoka's on this issue I believe a lot of them train in a non-effective style for real fighting.

For the safety of those seeking a street effective-Aikido this aspect of the style has to be known to the practitioners.

mathewjgano
09-30-2005, 02:31 AM
Hi all, this is my first post
Talking about real figths, as everybody sayd before, jiu jitsu is as real as a dream world
Or you think that, in a real figth, life or death situation you can say to the guy :"finger in the eye, brake fingers, kick in the eggs are against the rules" ??????

Do you mean to say that a dojo isn't ever like a "real-life" situation? I agree, but would also say that just as no two "real-life" situations are exactly alike, but you can learn from one to be better prepared for another, so too can one learn how to better handle yourself against a malicious attack from a very sincere benevolent one. I've trained only twice at the local Tomiki-style dojo, but have found the resistance (very lightly applied to me as i am a beginner there) adds a very real dimension to the techniques. Some dojos within any given style are better than others on any given principle of martial training...I'm probably doing a good job of over-stating the obvious so i'll quit now. Coincidentally, i'd like to say thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts. Doing is more important than thinking about it, but thinking about training does help, even if only a little.
Take care,
Matt

Jorx
09-30-2005, 04:07 AM
Hi all, this is my first post
Talking about real figths, as everybody sayd before, jiu jitsu is as real as a dream world
Or you think that, in a real figth, life or death situation you can say to the guy :"finger in the eye, brake fingers, kick in the eggs are against the rules" ??????

LOL I can't believe some people STILL think that way.

I bet there would be some guys in most jiujitsu schools who would fight you with those things allowed.

Kevin Leavitt
09-30-2005, 01:24 PM
Jorgen,

I was thinking just that this morning when I first read this post. I'd welcome the opportunity to train with someone who honestly believes in the eye poke, gouging, egg kicking solution set.

Those things certainly are worthwile tactics for sure, but to dismiss BJJ or ground fighting as being ineffective because of those things usually demonstrates to me that the person making the statement doesn't have a good understanding of ground fighting.

Fighting is much more complex than aikido, BJJ, or any other martial art. It requires many, many things..which is why we will always have the debate over the effectiveness of an art in real life. They cannot be dismissed with the eye gouge theory.

Patrick Crane
09-30-2005, 02:11 PM
Congratulations, you live in paradise no doubt.

Ah, sarcasm, thank you.
Just like a grapefruit....bitter but healthy.

So, since I have been called to task by more than one respondent, maybe an informal poll is in order.

...and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but am seriously curious to know...

How many of us live in neighborhoods where we face the real, day-to-day prospect of having to personally, directly deal with serious, felony street violence?
...you know, drive-by's, gang-bangers, drug dealers, thugs, hoodlums, etc., etc.

And you're right, although I've never really thought of BFE-Tennessee as anything approaching "Paradise," I suppose I should be more thankful for my apparently sheltered existence.

wendyrowe
09-30-2005, 02:17 PM
...maybe an informal poll is in order...How many of us live in neighborhoods where we face the real, day-to-day prospect of having to personally, directly deal with serious, felony street violence?
...you know, drive-by's, gang-bangers, drug dealers, thugs, hoodlums, etc., etc...
My suburb's quiet, but according the Boston Massachusetts newspaper there are plenty of places there where I could be involved personally in serious street violence without trying that hard. And the quiet suburb I was in before moving here was a suburb of New York City, where I KNOW it's easy to find yourself some serious street violence.

Kevin Leavitt
09-30-2005, 02:43 PM
knowing your neighborhood and what is in it is the very first step according to Sun Tzu :) Mitigating that risk would be next. Not sure what a poll would serve other than "one up-manship".

I do think however that it your environment is important to consider, bu that is a personal thing and how you respond to it is individual. Frankly if I lived in a really risky area, I'd consider moving away, if that was not an option, nor was not the thing do to, i'd try and find a way to co-exsist with it.

It might be to carry a gun, find a group of really tough and good friends, do some volunteer work and get to know my neighbors and try and fight back some how, or avoid the trouble areas during certain times.

Certainly empty hand martial arts may be more relevant or important to someone who lives in a high risk area, but I believe if that is really the case, there are many more things that you can do to mitigate your risk than the lousy techniques of empty hand...but that is me.

It is though always good to hear and learn from those that live in high risk crime area and how they have found to deal with such problems of violence.

Pierre Rood
09-30-2005, 02:53 PM
A friend told me she started years ago taking jiu-jitsu because she got harrassed by people when going home at evenings by public transport. After just a couple of lessons a man blocked her path on the sidewalk. When she went left he went also, and vice versa. He played and blocked her. She felt very afraid. But then somehow in an instant she decided if it had to be it had to be and went straight through him. To her great surprise he went quickly out of the way. He had probably felt her power and then avoided a confrontation.

Just a story.

mathewjgano
09-30-2005, 11:13 PM
knowing your neighborhood and what is in it is the very first step according to Sun Tzu :) Mitigating that risk would be next. Not sure what a poll would serve other than "one up-manship".

I can understand being curious about the likelihood of people facing dangerous situations. However, I'd go so far as to say no one should consider themselves safe. I don't mean we should all be paranoid and always looking over our shoulder, but we ought enter and leave every situation as if it could be both a blessing and a problem. Also, I can see how it would be easy to enter into a "one up-manship" conversation. Maybe a better approach would be to describe situations experienced. Granted we could read the newspaper and get all that, so perhaps if we kept it applicable to Aikido principles?

Steve_Nester
10-05-2005, 05:00 PM
"Aikido does not work at all in a fight."

and thats why!!

Aikido is the way of harmony, that means that we should not be looking to fight and not worrying if aikido works in a real fight.

What I mean by this is that there are ways of diffusing a fight situation by your intension's and attitude alone without even raising a fist. This, I think, is what the way of harmony is (as well as learning waza).

That thats surely a lot easier than worrying if it works or not.

Regards,

Steve

p.s. I would like to say that aikido has everything that is needed to defend and restrain an attacker in any situation. But the technique must be used in accordance with the correct philosophy in mind and not one of "I will win".

Pierre Rood
10-06-2005, 12:23 AM
I agree Steve, we should not be looking to fight and not worry if it works.

But the fact is on these forums you find a clear display of the harmonious intents of the practitioners of Aikido and an even so clear uncertainty about whether if works or not. For a lot of people it is not uncertain to me what they actually feel: they have the worry it does not work in a real fight.

People complain about the unrealistic attacks, the unrealistic need of cooperation to make things work, the unrealistic 'no touch' throws. People have not the feeling they know what to do when a kickboxer attacks, or a taekwondoka, or a boxer, or a bjj guy, or when in a confined space, or when being dragged to the ground.

My friends, if this is the case, a person's Aikido is not working, because one doesn't train for a martial art, but for a (even so valid) 'moving meditation' art, the Aiki-fruity style.

I think Aikido contains the martial art side as wel as the soft, peacefull side. The training should reflect this and a practioner should be learning gradually what to do against all kinds of attacks in all kinds of situations.

Just my 0.02.
Pierot. ;)

CNYMike
10-06-2005, 10:01 PM
.... People complain about .... the unrealistic need of cooperation to make things work ....

I don't think the cooperation "makes things work," but it is important to learn how to do something. It's also curteous, IMHO. Having someone resist to the point you can't do something doesn't leave you grateful -- it leaves you mad at them, unless you know how to deal with that. Most people new to MA probably won't.


..... People have not the feeling they know what to do when a kickboxer attacks, or a taekwondoka, or a boxer, or a bjj guy, or when in a confined space, or when being dragged to the ground.


There as many anecdotes about aikidoka who handle attacks they have not been formally trained for as there are about Aikidoka who have their heads handed to them in the same situation. Pick which one you believe and run with it.

That said, realitically, what are the odds about being attacked on the street by another martial artist? Porbably not good, if it even is possible, for the simple reason martial artists are rare in our culture, and that doesn't count the fact that 90% of the people who stat quit within a year. And even then, statitistically, you're most likely to mix it up with a Tae Kwon Do or sport karate person. You start talking about things like Thai Boxing, BJJ, and so forth, those are rarities within rarities. Or as my Kali instructor like to put it: "Grapplers make it sound like everyone and their uncle is doing Brazillian Jui Jitsu, but I have yet to meet anyone at random who can do it." And boxers? "Someone says, 'That won't work against Mike Tyson,' I say, 'I agree with you, but I'm not worried about getting into a fight with Mike Tyson!'"

So while "What would an aikido person do against ______________ ?" may be a fun academic exercise, it's probably not something you have to worry about. True, if you wanted to fight in an NHB event, straight "traditional" Aikido might be not what you want to go with, but most Aikido people aren't going to do that, so it doesn't matter.


..... a practioner should be learning gradually what to do against all kinds of attacks in all kinds of situations.

Just my 0.02.
Pierot. ;)

What this boils down to, however, is that you can't just have ONE answer to every attack (a jab-cross say), but figure out how to make EVERY Aikido techique -- shiho-nage, irimi nage, the controls, kote gaeshi, kokyu nage, and so on -- work against each indicidual attack. That's the way the art is organized as it is; dealing with new attacks means adapting EVERY technique to each attack you can think of. IMHO, anyway.

This sounds like a lot of work, and I am too &^%^%$(*& lazy to do it. You want to? Fine. Me, I'll go and keep dancing with the elves. :)

Steve_Nester
10-07-2005, 08:08 AM
Yes I totally agree Michael, very good post !!

happysod
10-07-2005, 08:13 AM
Me, I'll go and keep dancing with the elves I'd watch myself if I were you, the little beggers bite you know. I prefer pixies myself

Anyway, what's this thread still doing alive, I thought this was a dead thread, it has ceased to to exist, er, suddenly realises it's Friday as decides to stop now and look forward to reading those who took Ian D seriously in his recent reply...

CNYMike
10-07-2005, 11:58 AM
I'd watch myself if I were you, the little beggers bite you know. ...

Wrong elves.

When I first read the term "aiki elves" ( http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7069 ), I didn't envision the little guys who live in trees and make cookies. I envisioned the tall, lean, @$$-kickers from The Lord of the Rings.

Those elves.

So, who has to watch himeself? :p :)

Ed Shockley
10-08-2005, 07:56 AM
I am a large man, 240lbs, no fat, but there is always someone larger, stronger, better trained,faster, crazier...Aikido has taught me that the only way to win a fight is not to enter into it. Ultimate fighting is a sport in which men get paid to hurt other men. Living in a drug infested urban neighborhood, there was a point in my life that I studied those techniques and others as I work to reclaim my block. I also studied guns and knives because those were the weapons I anticipated facing and using. Working in the "real world" facing real dangers trying to make real change, I found and find myself using the cell phone, police and collective action as the most effective self defense tactics.

John Lilly
10-08-2005, 01:47 PM
Very well put Michael.
I have worked in a county jail for 17 years and I am about to return to training in aikido after 4 years. I have studied on and off for about 12 years total. I have worked in every jail position the easy as well as the more dangerous: Max, Booking, Psych and I have had my share of "use of force" incidents. I have dealt with thousands of offenders and have never had to fight with a skilled martial artist. The closest I can think of is one psych who had some Kung Fu experience but he was hardly a martial artist. We have had people with skill booked upon occasion but it is rare. To become a skilled martial artist requires discipline. If you have that kind of discipline you are not likely to provoke fights with strangers.
But my main point is: If I can work where I do and not get into fights so should your average martial artist be able to avoid getting into fights as well.
John

Pierre Rood
10-09-2005, 07:28 AM
Hi guys,

I'm a bit disappointed with the quality of some of the posts about the 'knowing what to do' against several kinds of attack. The staying away from the subject seems me to confirm the opinion of the first poster.

It is not the kind of Aikido I want to do. I like the psychological and filosophical side of Aikido very much, but mine has to be based on the concrete art of dealing with physical attack, and not with the ability to use a cell phone.

Kevin Leavitt
10-09-2005, 01:25 PM
I tend to side with Ed Shockley. His experiences parallel many of my own.

If you want to learn how to deal with physical attacks, there are many more skilled, efficient, and effective ways to deal with them than wasting time with aikido.

However, if you want the other benefits that come with being able to use these other things more effectively, then spend your time studying aikido.

Naturally, aikido should be based on sound, realistic, and controlled principles. However, these should not ever be confused focusing on training for real situations, because you are missing the whole real reason for studying aikido.

Sorry to talk in circles, but it is the duality of the art, and I think many people really just don't get it! I know it took me many years to figure it out!

CNYMike
10-09-2005, 07:47 PM
Sorry to talk in circles, but it is the duality of the art, and I think many people really just don't get it! I know it took me many years to figure it out!

Yeah, I'm kind of the same way, too. On the one hand, for most self defense situations, Aikido -- even straight "aiki-dance" Aikido -- may work just fine. Certainly when a thread like this starts, a chorus of "It worked for me!"'s start up, so who am I to argue with that? On top of that, there's the statistical unlikelihood of actually getting in a dustup with another martial artist, and even then, it's most likely going to be someone from TKD or Sport Karate; the MMA guys who could make your lives miserable are too busy typing screeds against Aikido and other TMA on the 'net to go out and actually beat people up. :)

On the other hand, going out and studying other MA in addition to Aikido isn't going to kill you. In this business, with all that's out there, ignorance isn't bliss, and wilfull ignorance is probably a bad idea.

Personally, I'm probably somewhat casual on the whole thing: I've been doing Kali under gentlemen connected to Guro Dan Inosanto, and if Guro Dan is in or tight with someone in your lineage, you're going to crosstrain -- period. It's encouraged. But respect for all martial arts was driven home, too, as well as the attitude that Everything's ok as it is. That's why I'm cool with Aikido as is. No, maybe it can't handle everything, but then, it doesn't have to.

Yeah, it is circular, but then Aikido is circular/spherical, too, so maybe it's fitting that it's ok to think that way.

.... ok, now I am getting dizzy .... :)

But here's hoping someone sees what I'm sayin'.

Ron Tisdale
10-09-2005, 09:04 PM
I think I might have met Ed Shockley...did you take ukemi for Donovan Waite a lot at Jeff Bowden's dojo when Waite Sensei taught there?

I would NOT pick a fight with him...and what he and John Lilly say makes a lot of sense to me.

Sorry you're disappointed Pierre, but I hope your dojo gives you what you're looking for.

Best,
Ron

emma.mason15
10-09-2005, 10:36 PM
man Im HOPING aikido workx!!!!
Ive got a violent ex-hubby who likes to re-emerge sporadically ..... just to remind me what fear is!
im doing this for confidence so at these points I can still go to the supermarket .... if he gets me alone .... im PRAYING that ive not been paying for some nifty looking , but ultimatly usless self defence!!!
(i have every faith in what ive learnt btw)
so make up ur minds peeps ......will or wont i be safe?
em x

Adam Huss
10-09-2005, 11:22 PM
There's a pretty big difference between "practical self-defense" and a "no holds barred" MATCH. Apples and Oranges. And as far as traditional Japanese Martial arts goes....if it has a "Do" on the end of the name, then probabaly the people training in it are looking for something a little more than how to put someone in a submission hold. Aiki Jujistu would be a more combatative style of training, but you won't find too much submission holds as it was desinged to be a form of "line training" for the military and to be employed with the purpose of disabling an apponent on the battlefield as quickly as possible, say, if you lost your weapon or it was broken or some situation like that. So aikido isn't really the best choice of training if you looking for something to enhance your match play. It would be like practicing all the time with an M-16 A2 service rifle to get ready for a pistol match. It'll certainly help out your shooting skills, but you need to concentrate on the rifle for the rifle match. (This is just concerning the physically technical part of aikido).
good training to you though, I'm very competative as well and love to scrap and get beat up every now and again (although we get pretty darn rough at our dojo sometimes) but what I get out of aikido goes way beyond the physical (but for me, the physical side is a path to self-betterment, its just the way it works for me).
Osu!
~Adam

Jorx
10-10-2005, 01:25 AM
man Im HOPING aikido workx!!!!
Ive got a violent ex-hubby who likes to re-emerge sporadically ..... just to remind me what fear is!
im doing this for confidence so at these points I can still go to the supermarket .... if he gets me alone .... im PRAYING that ive not been paying for some nifty looking , but ultimatly usless self defence!!!
(i have every faith in what ive learnt btw)
so make up ur minds peeps ......will or wont i be safe?
em x

IMHO won't. Take up quickly some MA where there is sparring with resistance.

But you can test it easily - take one of your friends who has NO MA experience whatsovere. Put boxing gloves on him and see if you can get a hold of his hand if he strikes. Then take the gloves off, have him run you over bad wrestling style and see if you can keep it standing. If both answers NO and you go to Aikido on SD purpose, quickly find something else. Something where you get real resistance...

emma.mason15
10-10-2005, 02:40 AM
im having to say that of course thats not the only reason I go NOW! ... but it is the reason I started!!!

Jorx
10-10-2005, 04:01 AM
im having to say that of course thats not the only reason I go NOW! ... but it is the reason I started!!!

That's all cool. Still you should find out which of your thoughts are backed up by reality and which are not. You like it? Makes you feel better? You have fun in class? That's all great if you yourself say so. Now some SD effectiveness you can not test it alone. Nor with your people in your dojo...

kocakb
10-10-2005, 04:28 AM
Have you ever visited other MA web side forums, the same topic is discussed for their arts as well. People are never satisfied. You can see the discussions about X vs Y, does it work, etc...the interesting side is; the guys from different MA's claim aikido more than aikidokas does. Mostly, people say: "I am a XXX-doka, aikido works well if you are train well and have a good instructor"...
We should exalt aikido by training hard, the rest will come by itself. O'Sensei is a sufficient example if aikido works or not.

just my opinion,
yours aiki...

Pierre Rood
10-10-2005, 05:47 AM
im having to say that of course thats not the only reason I go NOW! ... but it is the reason I started!!!


I saw this reaction in an old thread:
This in Regards to Mr. Tennenhouse:

I've read your articles on the advancement of aikido in real life applications on AikidoJournal.com. I 100% agree with you on EVERYTHING!!! I come from a JKD/Kung Fu and Karate background and have been in a lot of street altercations so I know what real fighting consists of! I just started Aikido 2 months ago...and I didn't start it 'cause I wanted to be a better person...I started it 'cause it's principles and many of the techniques are very effective if trained in properly...pretty much the same thing you're trying to get through. I've been posting a lot on the NHB fighting and Aikido thread here on the website and NO ONE on the thread except maybe one person agrees with me! So...I know what you're going through when people criticize and insult you because you know the truth. I just wanted to give you that word of encouragement. Also...if you have any videos of your SRA...send me some! LOL!

Sincerely,

Alan M. Rodriguez

I train among others with a kick boxer, some military policemen and they are not in it for the spiritual side :D .

Read the book "Angry white pyama's" and train harder. But check your Aikido dojo-style to see if it is concrete enough.

Kevin Leavitt
10-10-2005, 01:37 PM
Emma,

I too started training in MA for many of the same reasons you discuss, what I found, however, that I study today for many different reasons than I orignially started for. My understanding and perspective has evolved over the years. Good luck to you!

As far as people having the same argument on other sites, most certainly! All arts have the same discussions. I think they are healthy and a natural part of the process of growing.


Pierre, not sure I understand what you are getting at quoting Alan Rodriquez. Is it that people study martial arts for different reasons? I think certainly that is true, however, I think also that they need to consider why they are studying what they are studying, and what they hope to get out of it.

I certainly would not waste my time studying aikido if a solely wanted to learn police tactics, I'd spend my time studying police tactics. While aikido has many applicable techniques, and a particular aikido instructor may be the local expert in use of force, I think that trying to make aikido fit this type of training is a huge waste of a persons time. Again, if that is their sole focus.

Training should be tailored or geared to you particular goals. It is not a "one size fits all". Therefore, aikido, IMHO, cannot be everything to everyone...only what the founder and his original disiciples meant it to be as taught in its paraochial form.

mathewjgano
10-10-2005, 09:49 PM
I think Aikido can, in a particular sense at least, be universally applied. The "aiki" part certainly can be, in my opinion, since it's principle based. In learning to deal with forces that are more forcefull than our own, we are able to over-power them. With this ability comes the potential to handle any situation as well as anyone can handle them. It does all come down to how one trained (ie-what we learn to see and feel in a situation). Hence, if i want to subdue criminals or engage in street-fights, aiki-waza will help me do that. Aikido, however, begins to remove that from possibility since the -do refers to philosophical bent. One can go to an Aikido dojo and not learn Aikido. It comes down to how the individual applies it....per my understanding at least. I think this might be part of the reason why OSensei didn't teach just anyone. Seems to me i recall reading somewhere the idea that one ought not teach immoral people for this reason. It would be terrible to make a dangerous, imbalanced person, more dangerous.
Take care,
Matt

Paula Lydon
10-10-2005, 10:34 PM
~~Simply, if it's not Life and Death than it's still Sport. If it isn't Sport then sometimes you loose--extremely--whether you've trained not at all or for eighty years. If you survive you go home; if you happen to loose then it comes down, for me, to how you conduct yourself in that moment. That's the point of Aikido in my view~~

stelios
10-11-2005, 04:43 AM
Ikeda sensei clearly points out that "It is not Aikido that does not work; YOUR Aikido does not work!"
Enough said!

happysod
10-11-2005, 05:34 AM
Simply, if it's not Life and Death than it's still Sport Don't agree here, there's a tendency to view all encounters "on the street" as life or death fights. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but the encounters I've both witnessed and been involved in have fallen far short of this and only once have I been involved in something that even resulted in serious harm. Media hype aside, I still think there's more chance of you dying in a car accident than dying in a bar brawl.Ikeda sensei clearly points out that "It is not Aikido that does not work; YOUR Aikido does not work!" True up to a point, but those who decry aikido also have a point in how you assess a martial art for practical purposes. Do you base your decision only on the elite proponents of the art, or grade it on a curve for time spent in the martial art. Don't get me wrong, aikido has proved sufficient for my purposes, but I'd also never defend it on the basis of being the quickest way to learn self defense - its generally not taught in that manner.

thoss
10-12-2005, 06:59 PM
Joe I doubt you could judge a system by watching it .
as for street fighting ? Ueshiba was asked by the Japanese government to design a system for civilians to defend them self against American forces in case of invasion . now that's street fighting .

what Ushiba knew about fighting ? you'll never know as much.

mathewjgano
10-12-2005, 08:05 PM
"Don't agree here, there's a tendency to view all encounters "on the street" as life or death fights. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but the encounters I've both witnessed and been involved in have fallen far short of this"

I think it's a matter of how far into a situation one is looking. If you consider how chaotic most fights are, i think it's pretty reasonable to view them all as life or death encounters. You simply don't know when someone is going to take it to that level and so you have to assume every time it could happen at any time.

"Media hype aside, I still think there's more chance of you dying in a car accident than dying in a bar brawl."

This doesn't mean it won't happen. I've met "one-percenters." Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean you should assume any sense of safety from it. Simply put, you never know who you're dealing with, whether they're that vast majority or that one percent and because of that you should never assume one way or the other.

"...those who decry aikido also have a point in how you assess a martial art for practical purposes."

You can't judge an entire art on any segment of it. Take any system and you'll find some example of impracticality. I bet it's true, Aikido, being so heavily philosophically oriented, often gets caught up in mental aerobics more than Bujutsu. However, there are plenty of places that are the opposite of this and they should be considered every bit as much, if not more so. I agree in principle with what you're saying, but in my opinion it's irresponsible to say "aikido isn't practical."

"Do you base your decision only on the elite proponents of the art, or grade it on a curve for time spent in the martial art."

Base it on what it can do, not on what some or even most people make it do. You can learn Aikido quickly if from the right people...at least, you can learn enough to compare with any other martial art...in my opinion.

"but I'd also never defend it on the basis of being the quickest way to learn self defense - its generally not taught in that manner."

You may well be right...and i'm inclined to think you are, but from my experience, limited though it is, I feel able to handle myself as much as those in other martial arts with comparable time of training...of course...i could be delusional for all i really know...i did my butt thumped pretty well last week in class! Still, against people I know personally who have plenty of bar-fight experence, I feel pretty capable...it's all relative though I guess.
take care,
Matt

Pierre Rood
10-13-2005, 01:10 AM
Pierre, not sure I understand what you are getting at quoting Alan Rodriquez. Is it that people study martial arts for different reasons? I think certainly that is true, however, I think also that they need to consider why they are studying what they are studying, and what they hope to get out of it.

I certainly would not waste my time studying aikido if a solely wanted to learn police tactics, I'd spend my time studying police tactics. While aikido has many applicable techniques, and a particular aikido instructor may be the local expert in use of force, I think that trying to make aikido fit this type of training is a huge waste of a persons time. Again, if that is their sole focus.

Training should be tailored or geared to you particular goals. It is not a "one size fits all". Therefore, aikido, IMHO, cannot be everything to everyone...only what the founder and his original disiciples meant it to be as taught in its paraochial form.

Hi Kevin,

I used the quote and the example of people I train with to show Emma there are people who do Aikido for its fighting effectiveness. I hope to encourage her to find a good self defense in Aikido (other than getting out of a situation in time) and to challenge the non-believers with these very concrete example of fighters who like Aikido for the fighting side of the art.

The pre- and postwar sides of Aikido validate both the fighting and the peacefull side of it. I personally like the idea that it is possible to defend against real world attack with a kind of 'elfish' peacefull fighting system. But if no other possibility the 'elf' can become very angry and that will be effective because of some hard training. ;)

Pierre Rood
10-13-2005, 01:18 AM
"Don't agree here, there's a tendency to view all encounters "on the street" as life or death fights. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but the encounters I've both witnessed and been involved in have fallen far short of this"

I think it's a matter of how far into a situation one is looking. If you consider how chaotic most fights are, i think it's pretty reasonable to view them all as life or death encounters. You simply don't know when someone is going to take it to that level and so you have to assume every time it could happen at any time.

Just yesterday, I watched a person in his car too long in the eyes, bodybuilding posture, criminal car and outfit, he was looking like "what are you looking at", drove inches from my car to provoke. Since I seem to look arrogant it might happend he had stopped and got out. I expect such types to have at least a baseball bat in the car. There you go, you are driving home from work and accidental stare at the wrong person...

I don't know in what kind of paradise a lot of the Aikdoka live, but here this can happen everywhere, everyday. If you have an independend look and feel they will pick you out to show their bravery and power. Especially if they really feel insecure and challenged by your selfconfidence.

happysod
10-13-2005, 03:41 AM
in my opinion it's irresponsible to say "aikido isn't practical." no argument here, didn't realize I may have inferred this, just happily playing devils advocate.If you consider how chaotic most fights are, i think it's pretty reasonable to view them all as life or death encounters While I understand the viewpoint and accept it's certainly a viable attitude, in many situations I feel it's often an over-reaction which can actually be detrimental to resolving a situation. If your first reaction to any initial conflict is a "do or die" one, you've already limited your options to kill or flight, which I don't think is a credible. Weapons involved, all bets are of course off

Really I suppose I'm reacting to the almost mythic quality which is attributed to the average mugger/burglar or bar-room bully as that of a highly trained sociopath out for your blood at all costs. I don't think it helps either your self defense or even your quality of life. Accurately assessing the threat is the main way of keeping yourself safe, here to err on the side of caution is good, accepting each conflict as your chance for Valhalla, not a fan.

Paula Lydon
10-13-2005, 10:00 AM
~~I was unclear: Violent encounters can reach the point of Life or Death in the extremity of a physical instant. My thoughts were more for holding that Life or Death mindset so that you are ready for however the moment in your life evolves or culminates. Physically, you will do things you never once imagined. You might have trained in a dojo for years and suddenly freeze; conversely, you might have had no training and pull something surprising out of yourself that halts the violent intent of the other or the encounter itself. You cannot begin to guess or surmise what will ever happen and my point was that, to me, Aikido training is a spiritual training (and not just fluff bunny stuff but deep in the fire) so that you are--hopefully--fully in your life, every moment, every movement, every thought, every breath. For me training goes far past the question of can I defend myself in a fight. When pinned under a 200lb plus person you just try to relax, gather your wits and spirit and wait for the correct moment to act. If I wished to dwell or center my training on fights or fighting then I would have remained with my previous art and wouldn't be on the Aikido path.

Again, only my take on the matter~~ :circle: :square: :triangle:

mathewjgano
10-13-2005, 10:42 AM
no argument here, didn't realize I may have inferred this, just happily playing devils advocate. While I understand the viewpoint and accept it's certainly a viable attitude, in many situations I feel it's often an over-reaction which can actually be detrimental to resolving a situation. If your first reaction to any initial conflict is a "do or die" one, you've already limited your options to kill or flight, which I don't think is a credible. Weapons involved, all bets are of course off

Really I suppose I'm reacting to the almost mythic quality which is attributed to the average mugger/burglar or bar-room bully as that of a highly trained sociopath out for your blood at all costs. I don't think it helps either your self defense or even your quality of life. Accurately assessing the threat is the main way of keeping yourself safe, here to err on the side of caution is good, accepting each conflict as your chance for Valhalla, not a fan.

I completely agree.
Take care, Ian!
Matt

Kevin Leavitt
10-13-2005, 04:22 PM
Pierre,

Thanks for the clarification.

It is probably somewhat semantics, but I would disagree for the most part with your assessment of fighting using aikido.

Certainly in theory it would be possible to fight from an aikido paradigm of "elfishness", but in reality, as in a life or death situation, things are not all that simple. You use whatever you can to your advantage to perserve yourself and recover to a point of control. It may not be pretty, or even look like aikido, it is whatever works.

In theory I think aikido is a wonderful art, and it the philosophy it conveys is very wonderful, even the techniques and principles are sound, however, it is not a good idea to use a real fight as an opportunity to practice the gentle art of harmony that I think very few have perfected.

I remember a time many years ago when Saotome Sensei returned from Florida to the DC dojo and was informed to be careful in the house because some crackheads had been using the dark corners around it while he was away to hide and smoke...he said "should have brought shotgun back from Florida". This is coming from a Shihan mind you.

Know your limits and capabilities. Aikido is not the best way to explore this in my experiences.

I am not proposing that aikido is invalid in a fight necessarily, however, what goes on in the dojo in the methodology we train in, and what happens for real under the fight or flight response can be very different. We should not set people's expectations up for this.

I submit that aikido is a wonderful art to convey the founders goals of understanding peace and harmony..and you can gain some valuable skills martially, however, it was not designed as a fighting system, nor is it the best method to conditon oneself mentally to handle death matches or combat.

There are many wonderful attributes that can be developed in aikido as practiced as a budo, the warrior spirit, mushin, calmness, posture, balance, and even techniques that are effective....however, once things go south, well frankly I have not been in too many dojo's that really practice this and I believe it is really beyond the scope of the art to go there.

Yes, we can make the jump mentally and visualize ourselves in action, but until you have had your ass handed to you by someone that does not want to play by your perceived rules, things are just theorectical.

I hope this makes some sense. My concern is always that everyone trys and take everything as a black or white issues that either "aikido works or it doesn't work". The problem is much more complex and deeper than that.

I have used the skills I have learned in aikido to successful De-conflict many conflicts and to cause no punches or bullets to be fired...it did not involve randori or ikkyo, or irimi, or tenkan. It simply involved "seeking to understand the individual", allowing them to move mentally and physically, de-escalating the conflict, smiling, remaining calm, and re-directing their anger and/or energy to a more positive outcome.

To me this is using aikido at it's finest! So yes, it does work in a fight.

But to approach a situation where someone jumps you and the crap is flying around the room and they have every intent on killing you, well, that is not the time to worry about violating your principles or if you are maintaining the boundaries of what is aiki or not. Things are now way past that point.

I have had many conversations with my friend Michael Neal on this issue on Aikiweb....I think he would argue that in some respects it is unfortunate that we don't practice this "impolite" side of things in aikido. I again, submit, that based on the philosophy of the founder, that it is not within the scope of his intent to make someone a fighter in the truest since of the word, but to follow the path of budo.

Sorry this is so long.

Keith R Lee
10-13-2005, 05:45 PM
That was a great post Kevin. I think it accurately conveys the opinions and sentiments of many of the aikidoka here who have or do cross-train in more "aggressive" or combative/competitive martial arts. Well said.

mathewjgano
10-13-2005, 09:46 PM
I again, submit, that based on the philosophy of the founder, that it is not within the scope of his intent to make someone a fighter in the truest since of the word, but to follow the path of budo

I obviously can't speak for OSensei, and maybe his views changed and what you're talking about reflects his "final word" on the matter, but I read OSensei as saying budo, which you yourself just described as his intention, "determines life and death in an instant." Within this context, perhaps it could simply better be said that Aikido was intended to work in all martial/budo situations, but that many people don't allow it to. What do you think about this quote of his?
Take care,
Matt

Kevin Leavitt
10-14-2005, 02:23 AM
Thanks for the comments Keith. I was worried it did not make much sense!

Matthew:

I think you are correct in your observation about the intent of aikido and the intent of the founder. Theorectically and Philosophically it should "work". The problem is defining the definition of "work". And asyou state "many people don't allow it to". I would add to this, "many people don't have the experience or skill to allow it to work". Also, your opponent may not "allow it to work". There are so, so many variables and paradiqms, semantics that enter into the equation that it blows my mind to even define this area.

I agree with O'Sensei's comments on "determine life or death in an instant". Police officers and soldiers practice this constantly (or should). That should not be construed, however into "one shot, one kill" as applied to the focus of your "real fight strategy" which needs to be scaled and multi-faceted to blend with the minimum use of force concept. (Which we are struggling with in the current military environment if you ask me).

I think, O'Sensei, probably did not necessarily mean for that comment to be taken at face value, but thought about, discussed (as we are doing here), and the focus of our training, which I think is the essence of budo. That however, IMHO, should not be translated directly to "aikido does or doesn't work in a fight". The situation and subject is much more complex than that.

I suppose if "determine life or death" in an instance was all that was really important in budo or fighting, then the empty hand martial art or budo would die on the vine.

Why? because we could all just walk around with the most effective modern death instrument and use it to CONTROL if someone lives or dies without regard to the "karma" we create in ourselves, that person (if we "choose" to let them live), or others that observe.

Think about the emotional environment that we construct around that paradigm. I am not allowed to get too political because of my position in the military, but think about our current operational environment and the issues we are facing.

So, I think the "determine life or death in an instance" must be coupled with a whole bunch of other stuff to accomplish O'Sensei's goals. It is more than just being gracious and merciful when you "choose" to do it. I think it requires compassion.

As Stephen Covey says the real victory is created when we create WIN/WIN vice LOSE/WIN, WIN/LOSE, or LOSE/LOSE.

I think this is what we do when we practice Budo, we make ourselves physically, mentally, and spiritually strong first. We choose to empower ourselves, to set an example, to be comfortable within our own skins, to place ourselves in a position to be compassionate. We can then when faced with adversity, mitigate things to resolve conflict from a position of influence and power. Deciding in an instance life or death of the situation.

Yes, some situations require extreme violence or use of force in a split second. Those that must face this must do it without hesitation, but they must train for that moment, and when it comes not think, but act.

As Paula points out above, it is not what you do that matters, but your frame of mind, spirit, and compassion in which you do it that matters the most. So, I think his comments are more related to the "battle within your mind" type of thing, not literally your adversary. You must first control yourself and choose the right actions for yourself, before you can be worried about your opponent.

I could be wrong, but I believe THIS is what is most important in the study of BUDO, not the physical skills, which frankly after 20 years of military service and training soldiers and seeing the affects of combat is what I have used the most. But these are my personal observations and opinions, and not the U.S. Army's.

Okay guys...whose gonna be the first to call me an "aiki frutie" :)

Pierre Rood
10-14-2005, 03:24 AM
I can live what that Kevin :) :
I think this is what we do when we practice Budo, we make ourselves physically, mentally, and spiritually strong first. We choose to empower ourselves, to set an example, to be comfortable within our own skins, to place ourselves in a position to be compassionate. We can then when faced with adversity, mitigate things to resolve conflict from a position of influence and power. Deciding in an instance life or death of the situation.

Yes, some situations require extreme violence or use of force in a split second. Those that must face this must do it without hesitation, but they must train for that moment, and when it comes not think, but act.
One remark, the "life or death"-thing is mentioned quite a lot. In my experience a lot of conflict exists before that, in the bullying and harassing area.

Yesterday on the radio I heard that 3/4 of the women feel unsafe-, and a large amount (37%) had been harrassed once or more, by a man on the street at night. evileyes

So I feel the people pay to much attention to the idea of effectiveness against the 'real streetfighter/MA specialist' while the reality of defence on the street is much easier to realise with a quite moderate Aikido capability.
:cool:

Kevin Leavitt
10-14-2005, 10:54 AM
Or none at all! I think there are many easier ways to mitigate the risk of violent crime or harrassment that does not involve aikido. However, the confidence, awareness, and warrior spirit that you can glean from aikido are and can be an important part of that. Just doesn't involve the fight skills per se.

I think most of us, myself included tend to view fights/conflict through a certain paradigm/filter/perception and only see the point at which we are engaged in close quarters battle for our lives. It is natural since that is the part we fear most.

I think though, that if you strip away the emotion from it, you see that there is much we can do to avoid that conflict all together, and things you can do to give yourself the tactical advantage that do not involve empty handed randori. Such as walking with a co-worker out of the office late at night when you leave to go home.

I would tend to think that the number of women who feel unsafe should be 100%. I am still amazed at the number of women I see walking alone in the strangest of places.

There fears are well founded, however, how many choose to focus or deal with that fear can be irrational. I think we do women a huge injustice in some dojos that profess to "empower" them through "women's self defense". Sure, you need to know something "just incase", but I don't think a one hour seminar is going to do you much good other than give you a false sense of complacency or calm that valid fear with a irrational solution set.

One thing I think most of these course do though is tell them to not walk alone, to have a safe room in their house, to do things that keep them safe through passive actions....these are good things.

Okay...enough rambling!

Pierre Rood
10-27-2005, 12:57 AM
Our Sensei is often demonstrating a technique in two variants, the one we practice is the formal or applied technique, the other one is where he demonstrates a lot of Sumo-like slapping in the face while bringing Uke down with a technique. That would give us an impression of how the technique would work in a real fight. It demonstrates imo the ('90%') Atemi where is talked about often. The resemblance with Sumo, Atemi used to disturb and disbalance the opponent is 'striking'.

Kevin Leavitt
10-28-2005, 04:57 PM
I agree Pierre. Striking can injure and can also incapacitate/render your opponent unconcious, however I find that it is of more use to do as you say, to disrupt and off balance to regain or hold the advantage of "center", or dominance.

It is best to practice the technique, first without atemi, or slow atemi, to ensure you have proper alignment, position, timing etc, then increase speed, and add atemi.

I don't think aikido works very well with out it...but that is another thread all together! :)

Mike Haftel
11-02-2005, 01:41 PM
The concept of atemi is ALWAYS a part of Aikido. I don't know what style of Aikido you have witnessed, but the fact is that atemiwaza, or critical strikes, are necessary to all techniques of Aikido.

I didn't read through the entire thread yet, so forgive me if I bring up something that has been discussed before.

If atemi is necessary to all "techniques" then it begs the question of whether or not the "techniques" are useful to begin with.

If I need to strike someone to fascillitate the application of a lock or throw, then the lock or throw, by itself, is not being done correctly or the nature of said lock or throw is inherently flawed.

IDEALLY, all "techniques" should be able to stand on their own without the help of a distraction or strike to subdue an attacker.

Atemi is just iceing on the cake. Not the plate the cake sits on.

Kevin Leavitt
11-02-2005, 02:42 PM
Aikido is simply a methodogy for learning principles. It is not iceing, cake, or anything other than a method for learning. I think it helps to understand that and keep it i perspective.

I am of the belief that atemi, or the threat of atemi is very, very important to aikido. Without it you do not have a premise for developing the necessary relationship with uke/nage.

Ever try irimi nage on a unwilliing partner? You cannot do it, you have to move on to something else!

As a methodology aikido requires cooperation in training in order to learn the principles. Without it, you can grab nage easily, root, plant and stop him from doing anything resembling aikido methodology!

With the threat of atemi, uke is required to move in order to avoid the assault, this creates the dynamic movement necessary to follow through.

Can you "do" aikido without strikes? Certainly. Can you carry the threat of atemi without actually having to employ it, most definitely! But without it..you can assume away much of the principles that aikido is based on, and you have strategies that become quite different than aikido strategies.

Techniques can never "stand on their own". They require movement and energy in some form from the uke. Without it, there is no reason to continue to engage and we have ended the physical conflict.

If nage doesn't have to worry about your actions and he knows that you cannot use atemi, he has no reason to fear you and can attack without fear of reprisal.

It really changes the dynamic and defeats the lessons aikido is designed to teach us.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Mike Haftel
11-02-2005, 02:56 PM
Aikido is simply a methodogy for learning principles. It is not iceing, cake, or anything other than a method for learning. I think it helps to understand that and keep it i perspective.

I am of the belief that atemi, or the threat of atemi is very, very important to aikido. Without it you do not have a premise for developing the necessary relationship with uke/nage.

Ever try irimi nage on a unwilliing partner? You cannot do it, you have to move on to something else!

As a methodology aikido requires cooperation in training in order to learn the principles. Without it, you can grab nage easily, root, plant and stop him from doing anything resembling aikido methodology!

With the threat of atemi, uke is required to move in order to avoid the assault, this creates the dynamic movement necessary to follow through.

Can you "do" aikido without strikes? Certainly. Can you carry the threat of atemi without actually having to employ it, most definitely! But without it..you can assume away much of the principles that aikido is based on, and you have strategies that become quite different than aikido strategies.

Techniques can never "stand on their own". They require movement and energy in some form from the uke. Without it, there is no reason to continue to engage and we have ended the physical conflict.

If nage doesn't have to worry about your actions and he knows that you cannot use atemi, he has no reason to fear you and can attack without fear of reprisal.

It really changes the dynamic and defeats the lessons aikido is designed to teach us.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

You have misinterpreted what I was saying.

Let me see if I can make it more clear.

IF you have to strike someone to facillitate or apply an effective lock, hold, throw, or "technique" then that lock, hold throw, or "technique" is either inherently flawed or you are not applying it correctly.

That is what I meant by "stand on their own." The use of a technique to fascilliate another technique shouldn't be needed if the first technique works.

Take a look at this article to see, PARTLY, what I mean:

Part 1 http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/images/articles/SBG2.jpg
Part 2
http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/images/articles/SBG3.jpg

wendyrowe
11-02-2005, 03:11 PM
IF you have to strike someone to facillitate or apply an effective lock, hold, throw, or "technique" then that lock, hold throw, or "technique" is either inherently flawed or you are not applying it correctly. O'Sensei supposedly said that "Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido," according to various people who trained with him, including Saito Sensei. Given that, it seems unlikely that we should now say that aikido techniques should always work without it or we're doing them wrong.

Kevin Leavitt
11-02-2005, 03:25 PM
I just responded to another one of your post, so I think I understand your position a little better now Mike. It is hard to express in words these concepts. Sorry I misunderstood.

I read the article and completely understand your position. Unfortunately, I probably can't get out in words here all the thoughts I have on this as I am struggling with trying to condense them into concise sentences. Sorry.

I am a grappler as well (study MMA and BJJ). I reallly began to understand aikido and the importance of atemi to the relationship of uke/nage once I studied BJJ. It is a very, very complex relationship!

First you have to establish the premise, assumptions, and rules we are applying to the fight. I think mostly the discussion between us would boil down to semantics.

There is a conflict and use of force continium that comes into play. I believe the SBG article assumes a certain spot on this continium within the grappler's or judoka's paradigm and Yes, I would support their position from a grappler's standpoint.

My point is that they are also assuming that atemi is present and can be used in the article. Is it necessarily to use it? No. Can it actually "hurt" your position to use it? YES. Must the possibility exisit for use in order to form the Uke/nage relationship honestly? YES.

I think the article is pointing out that atemi can be harmful not only from a "sport" point of view by messing up your "game strategy", but it may also force you down the conflict/use of force continium in the wrong direction and cause escalation insteady of de-escalation of violence.

So, I agree. We study aikido as a methodology to show us that we have the strength and the ability/opportunity to use atemi, but that we can also posess the skill and compassion to restrain from using it.

Here are a couple of appropriate quotes from O'Sensei in the "Art of Peace" translated by John Stevens I like.

"The Art of Peace does not rely on weapons or brute force to succeed; instead we put ourselves in tune with the universe...."

"To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control agression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace."

There is one other quote I could not find, but it is something about the ultimate victory is resolving conflict before it starts by presenting such a strong presence that your oppponent sees the futility in his attack.

I think this is the true meaning of the concept of atemi. You don't hide it, you are not ashamed of it, you simply have the skill and the compassion to withhold it.

rorenshi
11-02-2005, 03:28 PM
Of course aikido works in a fight, but only if you practice in the correct manner. My sensei used to do do Tomiki, but gave up because he was the only one in the state, he then switched to Aikikai style, but still practises with...vim. He can be a vicious type at timesm, but I believe the way he teachers is the most practical, in self defence terms at least. He frequently asks us to try and strike him during a technique, or will gently strike us during a technique, to show us how to defend against someone who does not simply stand still and allow a whirling person in a big skirt manipulate their joints and nerve centres.

I hereby conclude that, if you are taught in a practical way, then you should have no trouble in a conflict, against anywhom.

Mike Haftel
11-02-2005, 04:40 PM
O'Sensei supposedly said that "Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido," according to various people who trained with him, including Saito Sensei. Given that, it seems unlikely that we should now say that aikido techniques should always work without it or we're doing them wrong.

He also said that "the secret to aikido can be found in a single technique."

Which statement from O-Sensei should we take to heart?

I'm not saying atemi shouldn't be used. Quite the contrary. I'm just saying that grappling shouldn't be dependant on the use of atemi.

Mike Haftel
11-02-2005, 04:57 PM
I just responded to another one of your post, so I think I understand your position a little better now Mike. It is hard to express in words these concepts. Sorry I misunderstood.

I read the article and completely understand your position. Unfortunately, I probably can't get out in words here all the thoughts I have on this as I am struggling with trying to condense them into concise sentences. Sorry.

I am a grappler as well (study MMA and BJJ). I reallly began to understand aikido and the importance of atemi to the relationship of uke/nage once I studied BJJ. It is a very, very complex relationship!

First you have to establish the premise, assumptions, and rules we are applying to the fight. I think mostly the discussion between us would boil down to semantics.

There is a conflict and use of force continium that comes into play. I believe the SBG article assumes a certain spot on this continium within the grappler's or judoka's paradigm and Yes, I would support their position from a grappler's standpoint.

My point is that they are also assuming that atemi is present and can be used in the article. Is it necessarily to use it? No. Can it actually "hurt" your position to use it? YES. Must the possibility exisit for use in order to form the Uke/nage relationship honestly? YES.

I think the article is pointing out that atemi can be harmful not only from a "sport" point of view by messing up your "game strategy", but it may also force you down the conflict/use of force continium in the wrong direction and cause escalation insteady of de-escalation of violence.

So, I agree. We study aikido as a methodology to show us that we have the strength and the ability/opportunity to use atemi, but that we can also posess the skill and compassion to restrain from using it.

Here are a couple of appropriate quotes from O'Sensei in the "Art of Peace" translated by John Stevens I like.

"The Art of Peace does not rely on weapons or brute force to succeed; instead we put ourselves in tune with the universe...."

"To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control agression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace."

There is one other quote I could not find, but it is something about the ultimate victory is resolving conflict before it starts by presenting such a strong presence that your oppponent sees the futility in his attack.

I think this is the true meaning of the concept of atemi. You don't hide it, you are not ashamed of it, you simply have the skill and the compassion to withhold it.

I know what you mean about not being able to put things into words sometimes.

Also, keep in mind that "grapple," in both how I use it and how it was used in that article I referenced do not necessarily mean BJJ or ground fighting, although it could. When someone applies ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, kotegaiesh, etc... those are grappling as well. And my point is found, mostly, in the 3rd example the article was disucssing.

I actually have a copy of The Art of Peace sitting in front of me right now, I plan on reading it within the next few days or so.

ad_adrian
11-03-2005, 02:16 AM
I pray that we do not have to use aikido ever, but on the situations where we do have to use it, it has worked for me and many others all the time, we have all heard storys about how ushiba and gozo have taken on many times
hell i have heard many and many of storys of my sensei taking on other black belt judo/karate people, and coming up on top.
aikido works, now im not saying it is the best martial art out there, or anything like that that would be arrogant,
but not only from the stories i have heard of it kicking other major martial artists butt's,

but i have used it sadly in a few occasions being cornered in a club, and so forth, i didnt damage the person at all (maybe his pride) but i protected the girls i was with and my self using aikido, aikido is more then a martial art, its a way of life

wendyrowe
11-03-2005, 05:46 AM
... i have heard many and many of storys of my sensei taking on other black belt judo/karate people, and coming up on top...
Just curious: were the other black belts friends of peers of your sensei and did they want to test themselves and their arts against him and his, or did he seek them out to do the same test, or were those cases of real fights where he happens to know that his opponents were black belts? I'm not trying to start a philosophical debate, I just like learning context. Thanks.

roosvelt
11-03-2005, 10:11 AM
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=463

According to Yoshio Kuroiwa, Aikido does not work in a fight.

"All things have two aspects, yin and yang. We must recognize that practice represents an expression of yin emphasizing the uke (the person taking ukemi). Thus, practice is yin and reality (actual fighting and matches) is yang. In a real situation, we need practice plus something more."

"Fights in olden times were fought at one's own pace and are never possible or necessary at present. However, if you absolutely had to fight, not in a match, I think you would fight in the old way. In such a case, unless you had actually experienced yang practice, your efforts spent on yin practice would be wasted. This is because yin practice is for developing harmony, not for actual fighting. "

I think it's very clear that Yoshio Kuroiwa said Aikido is yin practice (nage and uke), randori is yin yang practice (nage yan, uke yin), while actual match/fighting is yang yang.

I just don't understand why some Aikidoda get defensive when someone points out the truth for them.

Aikido is just a trainging tool just like Tai Chin push hand trainging help you in a fight, but it alone can't win any fight against a Yan martial artist.

ian
11-03-2005, 12:56 PM
Every martial art has the stories of proponents who were unbeatable, especially with other martial artists. Some people who do aikido do not have self-defence in mind, and I believe it is true that for many of these practioners their aikido would not work in a fight. This is true of all martial arts. Really much of what is said is arm chair philosophy. However, I was attacked by someone with a knife when I was younger and I am certain that if it wasn't for aikido I would not be here today. Not because of amazing techniques, but because I could move my body effectively and instantaneously - that is what we are learning in aikido. The techniques are there as a method of learning aikido, not the other way around. I would say to any individual who does not have faith in their martial art to either train in another martial art, accept the experience of others or go out 'in the field' and try it out. To a large extent a martial art is more about the training method - thus my cheesy signature.

ian
11-03-2005, 12:59 PM
P.S. Roosevelt - I agree with alot of what you are saying, but I purposely include striking in aikido training because I do not believe the yin/yang aspect can be understood without it. Aikido CANNOT be passive - it has to form a connection as soon as possible and finish the conflict very directly.

roosvelt
11-03-2005, 02:17 PM
P.S. Roosevelt - I agree with alot of what you are saying, but I purposely include striking in aikido training because I do not believe the yin/yang aspect can be understood without it. Aikido CANNOT be passive - it has to form a connection as soon as possible and finish the conflict very directly.

Yin != Passive

Have you seen the symbol of Yin/Yan? There is Yang in Yin, and Yin in Yang. I don't want to elaborate here because I'll be talking above my level of understanding.

But I'm very sure Yin doesn't mean passive. The iriminage is main part of Aikido. It can't be passive.

I'm annoyed by the reactions of some Aikidoda here when someone newbie sincerely ask questions about if Aikido works in real fight. The standard response is like "you're too new to Aikido to ask the question", "you're a troll", "Aikido works, you suck", "Look at victories of O'sensei over this martial expert, that sumo expert", "some police train Aikido, it must work", "define real fight". It reminds me the Clinton's response of "define sex". It's so ridicules.

I'm sure running help you in a real fight, because you can run faster away from your opponents. But we all know what the original question is. Why don't we just give it a straight answer?

I'm too new to Aikido to answer the question myself. I hope some experience Aikidoda gave a straight answer instead of questioning the guy who asks a simple question.

If there is a bar fight now, I walk away or call police. After 10 years Aikido class and become a shodan, what should I do? I think i'd better walk away. What if I take 10 years Muay Thai class and become a Muay Thai black belt?

Mike Haftel
11-03-2005, 03:18 PM
What we do in the dojo is not martial arts. They are drills that have a practical application...the key is being able to find them, know them, understand them, and properly apply them as needed.

Kevin Leavitt
11-03-2005, 06:03 PM
Roosevelt,

Welcome to aikido and the complex world that it is. It has taken me years and years to understand it, and I still don't think I get it right in my head all the time! I look back at some of my post prior to aikiweb when the old list serve was running about 10 years ago and I am embarrassed by some of the things I wrote back then. I had a very simplistic view of the world and martial arts and fighitng.

I was more concerned with learning to become an effective fighter that could defeat anyone with as little power and force as possible. I had expectations of dodging knifes, bullets, and easily disposing 300lb giants with ease!

I still do!

I focused on the external applications and movements of the art. Why? because when those are your goals, that is all that really matters right!!! Being able to dispatch your foe efficiently. There is no real need for all this wishy washy internal stuff!

Really my frustration came to a head about 2 years ago after studying MA for 12 years seriously and being an infantrymen in the U.S. Army.

I have spent a great deal of time studying the dynamics and psychology of fighting, the escalation of conflict, and situational issues that we might find ourselves in as military, police, and as civilians.

It was mind blowing once I really looked at it honestly. To tell you the truth, I had my ass handed to me about a year and a half ago by a very good MMA guy who essentially shattered any esteem and opinions I had about all my years of training.

I reached the conclusion that fighting is very, very complex. It is all about perceptions, prejudices, and expectations. It is about the "rules" that are applied either implicity, or explicitly when you engage in conflict. There is a spectrum and a continium upon which all this works. It is a complicated "dance", one which requires someone to not only be technically and tactically skilled, but equally, if not greater mentally and emotionally prepared. It requires an ethical base, and the ability to judge, percieve, and act at a split second.

When I distilled down things to a simply level and started trying to "relearn" aikido through working with soldiers in my unit and soldiers that had been involved in life and death battles, really watching, listening, and learning from them and trying to validate aikido against what I would call people that are brutally honest (raw is a better word since honest would imply they had no prejudices in their approach to conflict resolution), I found that it didn't work! I could not reach out to them.

I began to think aikido was not valid as a martial art, that it had nothing to offer but an methodology to study esoteric concepts, and maybe a few techniques that you could situationally apply. Having a few techniques you can apply certainly doesn't make for a complete MA though!!!

So, what is important about aikido? How did it fit in.

The answer to me was simply Budo. Budo is about personal refinement. How can we be strong and effective warriors if we are not in the proper mental, physical, and emotional state?

I had to learn to beat my guys at their own game by learning MMA and BJJ in order to gain their respect and to be able to demonstrate to them that I was competent and fairly well rounded as a martial artist. I began about a year ago understanding the purpose of aikido. Once I "let go" of the techniques and "Style" of aikido and started focusing on the princples of budo, I began to see room in our training for aikido. I am begining to put things back together now, and I finally see how it works!

I will be the first to tell you that I am not that proficient as a aikidoka. My koshinage stinks, and my ikkyo is on par with about a 3rd Kyu. Also I am only a 2nd kyu in rank for reasons of my in ability to study consistently with my organization, that that is okay...because I finally at least "get it" I feel!

So you see, for many of us, answering a question about the effectiveness of aikido in a fight is a loaded question that really there are as many answers and opinions about as their are aikidoka, as all of us see aikido and what is offer slightly different.

One thing the founder was clear on I really believe is it is about Budo. He never professed to make you the most lethal figher in the world, but that aikido offers you a path to be a better person for what it is worth.

I'd recommend reading a few books if you haven't read them.

"In search of the Warrior Spirit" by Richard Strozzi-Heckler. He is a very good aikidoka/sensei that offers much knowledge in the area of application of aikido in "real life".

Also, "the Book of Five Rings" It really puts into perspective the things that are important about being a good warrior, it is more than about fighitng.

In the end of this long post...I offer you only what I have experienced for myself. It is all about balance and "the middle ground". As you point out, you cannot have the "yin" without the "yang".

Taylor Franklin
11-03-2005, 07:08 PM
I don't know if this has been stated yet, but why let a 'forum troll' rouse you guys? I understand the love of Aikido here on the site, but why try to convince a 'non-believer' to belive? It doesn't make any sense... Even if you get him to confide that Aikido is better, and to try it out, he might still have the lingering distaste and doubt on the art which could lead to him being hurt, or others. If somebody is looking for a fighting applicational art, I would not try to convince them that Aikido is one that should be applied. The techniques, as many of us know, are very dire to the body. Even so the lingering doubt could cause a choke up which could lead to injuries.

On the subject I first think a topic like this should be left alone. A debate/arguement is akin to a fight... so why let pricipals of Aikido differ from physical confrontations to verbal ones? Wade around conflict and continue.

As for the phsyical aspect of Aikido not working; It may not be the most practical, but if you're a practioner of Aikido on many levels you will have done all that's possible to avoid a phsyical fight in the first place. If the fight is unavoidable, then its beyond help. If somebody wants to beat you up, they probably will. Most other arts do show steadfastness and strength with usually lead people to be boastful braggards, which can ultimately lead to an unavoidable come-upins. I however do not suspect to see that much in Aikido and the teachings. How can you brag about a defensive art? Even so how would you get in a fight about it?

Punch me!
*defends or gets punched*

*defends*
Punch me again...
No!

*does not defend*
Punch me again
Why?

See my point?

Pierre Rood
11-04-2005, 05:10 AM
Yes, the conclusion has to be:

Aikido does indeed not work because it's practioners don't believe it does themselves.

If somebody wants to beat you up, they probably will

:yuck: :hypno: :eek:

Pierre Rood
11-04-2005, 05:11 AM
This is soooooo different from O Sensei...

L. Camejo
11-04-2005, 06:27 AM
IF you have to strike someone to facillitate or apply an effective lock, hold, throw, or "technique" then that lock, hold throw, or "technique" is either inherently flawed or you are not applying it correctly.

That is what I meant by "stand on their own." The use of a technique to fascilliate another technique shouldn't be needed if the first technique works.

Take a look at this article to see, PARTLY, what I mean:

Part 1 http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/images/articles/SBG2.jpg
Part 2
http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/images/articles/SBG3.jpg
Hi Mike,

Saw this a little late, but that article was spot on imo. Totally agreed.

Reminds me of a thread I started here a while back - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5313.

As Ian D indicates, it comes down to the training method. If you don't train to apply your Aikido in situations of serious interpersonal aggression outside the dojo and have tests/mechanisms to verify the integrity of your responses, then how can one hope to understand, much less comment on the concept? It's like a virgin lecturing abut sex from reading Playboy as someone else on this site said some time ago.:D

To me the fundamental concepts are very simple, overanalyis combined with a lack of understanding of the environment being dealt with makes things complex imho. The reason why a lot of other methods are seen as better suited for self defence is because they strip away the delusions and deal witht the reality of physical interpersonal conflict in a structured, scientific manner. With the absence of serious, targeted tests that strip away the BS in our perception and technique delusion will enter.

However the delusion is one of that exists in our own individual selves, not one of "Aikido" per se. "Aikido" means nothing by itself, it's a manifestation of the individual who practices it and his/her goals. Ultimately, we are the ones responsible for how we train and what we get out of training. It is not the responsibility of the method entirely, if at all. Aikido is merely a method.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2005, 08:38 AM
If there is a bar fight now, I walk away or call police. After 10 years Aikido class and become a shodan, what should I do? I think i'd better walk away. What if I take 10 years Muay Thai class and become a Muay Thai black belt?

Walk away and call the police. That is the only reasonable responce, unless someone physically attacks you in such a way that defending yourself is unavoidable. There was a Muay Thai teacher (very good too) that saw someone hit his car and try to drive off. He ran down the street after them, and they shot him dead. What was his best option? Walk away and call the police. Duh.

Best,
Ron (many people have answered your question, you just don't like the answers)

roosvelt
11-04-2005, 10:36 AM
Roosevelt,

I was more concerned with learning to become an effective fighter that could defeat anyone with as little power and force as possible. I had expectations of dodging knifes, bullets, and easily disposing 300lb giants with ease!

I still do!



I don't know much about Aikido myself. But I believe the Ki is real. I don't' think you can defeat anyone with little power and force. I think you need a lot of power and force, but not muscle power in the conventional way, but the mind/internal/ki power. I think Aikido kata is one of the ways to build this kind of power/force.

If we concentrate too much on little power and force, it'll lead us to timing, leverage, and technique. Sure they're important part of any system, but I think they'll show themselves if one builds up ones internal power.

I'm just talking over my head here. But that's my goal in Aikido.



It was mind blowing once I really looked at it honestly. To tell you the truth, I had my ass handed to me about a year and a half ago by a very good MMA guy who essentially shattered any esteem and opinions I had about all my years of training.


What's that good MMA guy background? What enable him to shatter your system?

Thanks.

Ulises Garcia
11-04-2005, 10:54 AM
Hello everybody,

So, with all the questioning of the effectiveness of Aikido that's been going on, I got real curious (this is an honest question, as I am truly ignorant); how does Daito-Ryu stand in the eyes of the Aikido detractors? I think that, all in all, it's the martial artist that's being effective (his wits, how he uses the tools that his particular art provide him with, and how he manages the adrenaline dump), with the particular MA being secondary IMO. After all, no MA will make you bulletproof, much less give you 360° vision to be aware of your surroundings 24/7. So, out of curiousity, how dows Daito-Ryu stand?

-U- (Looking for greater insight)

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2005, 11:22 AM
I think Daito ryu stands up well in some areas, but in others it has some issues too.

Positive:

a) The kata in the Mainline group that I am most familiar with deals with strong grabs that are followed up with full blown attacks. So it's not a wrist grab, pause, technique (neither is good aikido in my opinion), but rather, wrist grab and strike, dogi grab and strike, cross choke grab and throw for attacks. This means that the response has to be strong, use atemi, focus, advanced timing and other factors to succeed.

b) the kata often show effective means of striking, choking, throwing and dealing specifically with arts like judo.

c) The mindset is often one of "In Daito ryu you must win".

d) I believe that informal sumo type wrestling is used at least in the states to get some exposure to a more freestyle sort of application of technique.

e) I REALLY like the form of zanshin they teach (leave nothing behind). It can produce awesome budoka.

Negative:

a) come'on, it's still kata!

b) I don't think there is an emphasis on attacks outside of the standard japanese shomen, yokomen, tsuki, and grappling attacks.

In any 'art', it is often up to the individual to pursue applying the principles in more rigorous environments. Against well trained opponants.

I also think that someone who can take the principles and methods of 'organizing the body' outside of the classical framework will be an awesome fighter. But that person would have to be very well rounded, very physically fit, etc. I have trained with folks like that in Daito ryu...but I have also trained with folks like that in aikido, as well.

Best,
Ron (disclaimer: these are only my opinions from my brief exposures at open seminars. I am in no way truely competant in Daito ryu.)

Kevin Leavitt
11-04-2005, 01:23 PM
Roosevelt,

His background is Judo, Boxing, Grappling, Karate, Wrestling, and NHB fighting.

What enabled him is he had a much broader command of martial arts, specifically ground fighting than I did. We were equal in the striking arts, but when it came time to clinch, I was a fish out of water.

Keep in mind, we were playing by NHB and/or BJJ style rules....NOT aikido's. So you must consider that it was apples against oranges.

I honestly feel/felt that a Martial Artist should be able to adapt. He could, I couldn't, he was simply a better, more rounded Martial artist than I.

It didn't prove/disprove the value or credibility of aikido, but showed me I was hiding behind a false perception of what I was able to do as a MA.

I have de-constructed myself, and started over again, re-learning and re-evaluating everything I have ever learned. I now consider myself a Budoka that uses several methodologies, aikido which is one, to train myself.

I stopped looking at aikido as a set of tools, and started viewing it as a methodology. If you look at it in this manner, aikido presents one of the best platforms upon which to build a lifetime practice. Why, because it is principle based and has wonderful methodologies for helping you "relearn/learn" correctly.

I believe Jason Delucia has reached this conclusion as well.

Good training!

Ron Tisdale
11-04-2005, 01:58 PM
Excellent post Kevin. Thanks for sharing that!

Best,
Ron

Keith R Lee
11-04-2005, 09:32 PM
That accurately sums up my feelings as well. I've felt the same thing since turning to Sambo/MMA in the past 2 years since I stopped practicing Aikido regularly (other than 3-4 seminars a year).

Aikido is an awesome budo. However, it is budo only, and some people desire more than that. Other's don't. It's all good. I look upon my Aikido as giving me an edge-up on all the guys I roll with in Sambo and I look at Sambo as making my Aikido better.

I think of it like a buffet line. For 7 years I had nothing but chicken. I really liked chicken. I still like chicken. But a couple of years ago I tried steak. I found out I liked steak. I ate both for awhile but I've settled into only eating steak right now and I think I'll be sticking with it for awhile. I still have some chicken every now and then though.

And who knows? Maybe some day I'll work up the nerve to try the pork! :crazy:

Kevin Leavitt
11-05-2005, 04:49 AM
I wish I had some guys to train with in Sambo! From the limited experience I had with it, it seemed to be a good balance between grappling arts and mulitple opponent focuses!

Anyway, you got me thinking....if aikido is only budo and some people desire MORE. what is MORE?

I am one of those guys, like you, that found that I was not realilzing my full martial potential and aikido just wasn't doing it for me ...so I went looking else where for that MORE. (still looking!)

But I am not sure what the MORE really is!!!

L. Camejo
11-05-2005, 07:52 AM
I think a lot of folks go around looking for MORE in other styles or methods when what in fact happens is that they find CLARITY and REVELATION of what may have not been properly taught in Aikido practice from the beginning.

For many, I can understand the concept that Aikido may be a "finishing school" for those who have already developed some skill in other arts where the harsh realities of fighting have already been well dealt with. In fact, the way much of "modern" Aikido is taught, one will be hard pressed to get any understanding of the vagaries of actual interpersonal conflict while operating within the artificial cooperative constructs of the dojo. For example, in fighting there is no Uke and no Nage, just 2 individuals interacting without bounds to their free will, there is no taking of turns, there is just - free interaction. It's like attempting too do theoretical mathematics without first understanding basic arithmetic - doomed to failure from the outset.

Even though I currently train regularly in Jujutsu and a bit of FMA alongside Aikido, at no time did the Aikido I was taught come up martially lacking when faced with spirited resistance and tactics in the other schools, or outside in the real world for that matter. For me, Aikido will always remain my initial approach to dealing with interpersonal conflict, but what I learn in the other arts are also extremely valuable for dealing with the environments and situations they specialise in.

I guess it is sad that folks who have not experienced (or don't know) better tend to relegate Aikido to something of "mind or spirit training with no real martial value" or "great exercise but useless for self defence". To me, this sort of thing is a result of people and Instructors who represent Aikido as such things. The question remains however, if there is no Bu in your Do when you practice Aikido, then is your Aikido Budo? If Ueshiba M. identified Aikido as Budo, then if the Bu is absent then are you actually practicing Aikido? Or is it something totally outside of Budo? Like dance maybe???

What Kevin experienced with the guy who had experience in a range of other arts that had a lot of sparring is sadly typical for a lot of Aikidoka who train for years without some sort of objective measuring/evaluation system for their skill sets. Folks are never taught that to be harmonious when harmony is artificially enforced is to in fact do nothing, since the harmony already exists. Imho this cannot be Budo. But is it the fault of the art or the proponents of the art? Obviously not everyone in Aikido is maligned in this way so it is not a quality of the art, but its proponents.

Imho of course.
LC:ai::ki:

Keith R Lee
11-05-2005, 09:51 AM
Anyway, you got me thinking....if aikido is only budo and some people desire MORE. what is MORE?

I am one of those guys, like you, that found that I was not realilzing my full martial potential and aikido just wasn't doing it for me ...so I went looking else where for that MORE. (still looking!)

But I am not sure what the MORE really is!!!

I know what you mean!

I was happy with Aikido (only) for a long time but as I branched out, I just found a whole world of other martial opportunities. I just know I was no longer being pushed to my limits by Aikido. I was no longer feeling...growth, for the lack of a better term.

I need that feeling that I'm learning something. That I'm getting better. That I'm being pushed to my boundries; physically and mentally. That there is an element of risk in my training because out risk there is not much growth!

And now, in Sambo, I have all those things again. I had lost them in Aikido in the past couple of years since I finished my uchi deshi stay. I suppose that is understandable though, I can't really expect my training to be like that when I returned to my original dojo. :(

But like I said, Sambo is making me a better Aikidoka and vice versa! It's just another component of me studying myself really. How I want to push myself and in what directions do I want to grow. I suppose this might be the illusive MORE that Kevin and I are looking for. We've just got to keep pushing ourselves in all directions to find out where that MORE is.

Lastly, YES! Sambo is great. We focus mostly on Sport Sambo instead of Combat Sambo but our "facillitator" is versed in both. (the guy who runs the place refuses to be called the instructor or even the 'head' of the dojo, though that's what he is. He insists that it's a club and he is only the "facilitator." Nice guy.)

Not to mention, if you look at the MMA world right now Sambo is seemingly dominating. Arlovski, the UFC heavyweight champ, is a Sambo national champion. Although really, he doesn't have much competition, the UFC heavyweight division being so weak. And in PRIDE (that's the biggest MMA org in the world for those not in the know) the heavyweight champ, Fedor, is a Sambo national champion. He actually just won the world nantionals in Poland this year in addition to defending his title in PRIDE. Of course, Fedor is probably not a man but some freak Russian experiment or something. The guy is not human the way he fights. (He's essentially undefeated in MMA. His one loss was a doctor stoppage. When Fedor fought the guy again he smashed his opponent's face in)

It's not that suprising really. Sambo has been huge in Russia for decades, well before MMA got big. And Sport Sambo is essentialy MMA with a couple different rules. So it's a pretty easy transistion for these guys who've been growing up training/fighting this way their entire lives.

Watch this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3638449403901673774&q=fedor) to see Fedor in action against Nog (#2 or 3 heavyweight in the world). Check his standing throws at the end of the clip, really amazing.

Kevin Leavitt
11-05-2005, 11:05 AM
Interestingly enough, the new Modern Army Combatives Program I study and work with was largely based on the Sambo model. It really seems to work well for modern warfare and combatives.

I know there may be those out there that are thinking, "oh here are a couple of guys that are basically saying they learned everything that aikido had to offer, now they are moving on." or "aikido is not a complete art".

Contrary, IMHO, the focus is not about the art, but the artist. Everyone is different and what works for one, may not work for the other. For me, it is more about I am not good enough to learn 100% from just aikido. Also, my ventures have only solidified my belief that aikido is very good and relevant.

One thing I am critical of aikido though is parochialism and "group think". In some aspects I think aikido is prey to this. I found that going out of the circle works for me. I wish I had more time to spend with Saotome Sensei. One thing I always noticed is he seems to be focused on knocking those walls down. It is subtle, but he always trys. At least that has been my experiences.

CNYMike
11-05-2005, 06:47 PM
..... What Kevin experienced with the guy who had experience in a range of other arts that had a lot of sparring is sadly typical for a lot of Aikidoka who train for years without some sort of objective measuring/evaluation system for their skill sets .....

It's worth mentioning that sparring itself is a skill that is trickier to learn than most people think. I've had this driven home by my Kali instructor's approach to running us up to empty hand sparring. AFAIK, we are still doing "practice sparring," not actually sparring yet. Contrast this with many karate dojos which start you if not at full power, full speed out the gate. I love karate and I won't say anything bad about the senseis who take that approach, including the gentlemen I have trained under for twenty years. But the drawback is that your flight-or-flight reflex takes over and you "dumb down" to what you can go in off the bat. If that is not a problem, fine. My kali instructor wants us to explore techniques in a random situation without loosing your presence of mind -- in fact, viewing it the same way you do practicing prearranged techniques. Hence the levels of "practice sparring."

And even then, for sparring to be used in this manner, it has to echoe what the art in question actually does. Aikido is not a kickboxing system, so karate/TKD/kickboxing sparring doesn't help you with Aikido. Likewise, it is not a ground fighting system, so again, Judo, BJJ, etc. don't really suit it. I'm all for cross training, but one should remember that (a) sparring/randori is something you have to learn to do; and (b) if it doesn't echoe the range and techniques Aikido uses, it doesn't really test it.

So when an Aikido person has problem sparring, maybe it has nothing to with the quality of their Aikido instruction, but just the fact they never had any sparring instruction. A subtle difference but an important one to remember.

L. Camejo
11-05-2005, 08:10 PM
It's worth mentioning that sparring itself is a skill that is trickier to learn than most people think.
Like anything else, how well something is taught has a great effect on how quickly and easily it is learnt. Many great and skilled practitioners are not necessarily great teachers and vice versa.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

roosvelt
11-05-2005, 08:59 PM
Contrary, IMHO, the focus is not about the art, but the artist. Everyone is different and what works for one, may not work for the other. For me, it is more about I am not good enough to learn 100% from just aikido.




I agree with this.

I think Aikido is like a grade school. Only those who have gone through elementry school, secondary school, and university should be adimitted to Aikido graduate study.

The current problem is anyone off the street can join an Aikido class (that including me). Teaching Aikido to me is like teaching quantium physics to a baby.

Suppose Aikido is a grade school to teach civil engineer to build high rise building. What if a student barely know 1+1=2 to start with. Somehow, that student manages to graduate through the system. Of course that student has no idea how to build a garden hub, let alone a grand building.

Maybe they should send me to Karate, or tai chi to study how to stand and move my own body, the send me to push-hand to study how to move others in a static way. If I show some talent, they let me into AIkido to move others in a dynamic way.

"Aikido does not work at all in a fight." is true. Because Aikido is a not only a method, but also a teaching system. This system failed by not up front with its students.

I don't know how many Aikido students are building a high rise without any foundations.

3girls
11-06-2005, 06:58 AM
I have been hesitant to respond to this post simply because we are talking peoples opinions and nothing that i could say will change that. Now that said my humble .02.

First most fights 99.9999999......% of the time can be avoided by non participation. It takes at least two to participate in a fight. Most fights occur from rage and ego, "He looked at me wrong, He cut me off, He talked about my momma"..the list goes on. Walk away with an apology right wrong or indifferent the fight generally will not occur.

Second, If that does not work does aikido work? In my opinion yes. Let me explain, Jim Hanna Sensei and I are like David and Goliath; I would be Goliath :p Hanna Sense is all of 5' zip and 140lbs, I stand 6'4" and 225lbs I also lift weights so am quite a bit stronger than him. I also make every attempt when I uke to give freely, meaning if he says Brian choke me/ punch me etc. believe me my intent is to do just that then attempt to recover quickly be dangerous and go at him again. I am just glad there are no chairs,tables,cars, or concrete to land on in the dojo :D

I believe that aikido works in both points, the first edict of aikido...Don't be there (avoidance).

A wise man once said: " The less you know of martial arts the more you need it. The more you know of martial of arts the less you need it."

Shall we train on?
BK

Jorx
11-06-2005, 11:52 AM
"Arlovski, the UFC heavyweight champ, is a Sambo national champion."

Keith... get your facts straight. Arlovski is a military sambo champ. AND he stopped doing sambo after that. In fact he has done BJJ for 6 years now and has stated in interviews that BJJ is best for groundfighting.

Fedor is yes a samboka. Also a fine judoka.

To Brian... I'd say... when he says "choke me" punch him. When says "punch me", clinch and do a takedown. See what happens then.

I do not question the proficency of your teacher but I have never met any "little" aikdoka who could really throw around resisting opponents. My bad.

CNYMike
11-06-2005, 12:40 PM
Like anything else, how well something is taught has a great effect on how quickly and easily it is learnt. Many great and skilled practitioners are not necessarily great teachers and vice versa.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Since most if not all karate dojos that do sparring follow the full speed model, I don't see how you can pin the problems with that on any particular sensei. In fact, it seems kumite is supposed to be different -- lighter, quicker, not as precise -- than kata and bunkai; that has nothing to do with the teaching abilities of the instructor if they're all working from the same playbook.

By the same taken, Pembantu Guru Andy's "practice sparring" model also has pedigree; he likes to cite how Thai Boxers, who train all day, go at a slower pace than in the ring, so they can learn the move. They play. In fact, the Filipinos have an expression, "play to learn." O Sensei's rule to practice in a "vibrant and joyful manner" is not too far from that. Andy learned Kali from Guro Kevin Seaman, who did things that way, too. Yes, you do get up to full speed, but Andy beleives in working up to that point. If we're still in practice sparring, it's not because Pembantu Guru Andy doesn't know how to teach it -- and I resent the implication if that's what you're saying -- but because he wants us to take out time learning how to do it.

So while the ability of the instructor is important, if everyone has the same "textbook," then past a certain point, it doesan't make a difference.

Keith R Lee
11-06-2005, 12:40 PM
"Arlovski, the UFC heavyweight champ, is a Sambo national champion."

Keith... get your facts straight. Arlovski is a military sambo champ. AND he stopped doing sambo after that. In fact he has done BJJ for 6 years now and has stated in interviews that BJJ is best for groundfighting.

Fedor is yes a samboka. Also a fine judoka.


Yeah, my bad about Arlovski. I couldn't remeber if it was a National or military title. I didn't bother to check because I didn't think anyone would call me out on it! Oh well. And while I'm correcting myself, the Sambo Nationals were in Prague this year, not Poland.

As far as BJJ vs Sambo in terms of ground work, I would agree that the BJJ methadology and pedagogy is better (we freely mix BJJ into our Sambo). However, I think Sambo is definitely a better all around fighting system as it mixes ground work, throws/takedowns, and striking. If there was one real deficiency in most of the BJJ gyms I've been to it's the almost complete absence of throws/takedowns other than shooting for a single or a double.

CNYMike
11-06-2005, 12:55 PM
.... Only those who have gone through elementry school, secondary school, and university should be adimitted to Aikido graduate study.



I think this is a terrible idea.

When you talk about restricting or limiting access to a martial art, you run the risk of killing the martial art off. I have seen that in the Indonesian martial art of Pentjak Silat Serak. For many years, the de Thouars family kept it secret, inviting those they thought worthy after years of study in other arts, to study Serak. The end result of this policy is you ended up with -- literally -- a handful of aging men who had the whole system, and it was all in their heads; nothing had been written down. Maha Guru Victor de Thouars broke with his brothers and began teaching Serak publicly just to keep it from vanishing from the face of the Earth.

With more than a million people practicing Aikido worldwide, there may not be an immediate danger of Aikido dying out if some sensei or others decides he will only admit people who have spent years practicing other arts (although that dojo will be in trouble -- he'll be strangling his own pool of potential students, considering that up to 90% of people who start quit within a year, so never mind how many black belts there are in his area). But would there BE more than a million Aikido practitioners if the second Doshu Kisshomaru had kept his father's policies of consdiering only experienced martial artists who were backed by two sponsors he knew personally? Obviously, NO! Aikido would have remained confined to Japan; most of the people who practice it might not have even heard of it. Yes, there are some Bujitsu schools in Japan that have a small number of people -- maybe 50 people altogether practicing that style -- but why would anyone want Aikido to be that restricted?

Part of our roll as martial artists is to propogate the systems we learn by teaching them to others. The Ueshiba family has spent the better part of a century doing just that -- promoting it, spreading it, and certifying instructors who teach it to others. Choking off the flow of eligible students would be counterproductive to that IMHO. If you get your own dojo and decide to do it that way, that's your business. But I wouldn't go for it.

Kevin Leavitt
11-06-2005, 12:57 PM
Larry,

Sorry I missed your post some how yesterday (#405). Good post sums up very well how I also feel about things.

Roosevelt, I understand where you are coming from with the whole grade school/grad school concept. However, there is nothing wrong with starting with aikido as a first art. You will learn how to move and will learn posture, ma'ai, and all that very correctly. I don't really think it matters where you start. I for one started with TKD and Karate, I had/have to unlearn many bad habits I picked up from those styles. Just as aikidoka will have to learn how to adapt their style when confronted with a karate style.

It really is all about your goals of what you want to learn and what works for you.

3girls
11-06-2005, 04:21 PM
"
To Brian... I'd say... when he says "choke me" punch him. When says "punch me", clinch and do a takedown. See what happens then.

I do not question the proficency of your teacher but I have never met any "little" aikdoka who could really throw around resisting opponents. My bad.

Did that during a demonstration at the dojo. we went through the set demo which was the owaza jupon which we figured was about 3min tops the other 12min was me just attacking punch,grab, choke you name it nothing we did was pre arranged besides the owaza. I was tossed around pretty good. :D There is another sensei at the Jiyushinkai dojo about Hanna sensei's size Keith Slatoff sensei who I have never had the pleasure to train with but from my understanding is very adept as well acutally all of them are really.

BK

L. Camejo
11-06-2005, 09:04 PM
In fact, it seems kumite is supposed to be different True.

-- lighter, quicker, not as precise -- than kata and bunkai; Can't agree with "not as precise". It's extremely difficult to be as precise during freeplay as one is in kata due to resistance and a host of other factors, but the goal is to achieve the precision of kata in randori/kumite/shiai afaic. It's what we aim for in our Aikido and it can be (and is) achieved over time with the aid of effective evaluation/feedback systems. It's difficult, but far from impossible from my experience. The sad thing is that the pressures of sparring encourages folks to abandon what they learn in kata and bunkai and resort to more primitive, intinctive responses or another art that they are more comfortable with. Happens all the time in my dojo with folks who did other styles before coming to us and experiencing full resistance randori and end up being stabbed like a pincushion. Sadly, what they resort to is even less help. They return to what is known and safe, instead of attempting to apply what they are learning in the forms practice of the art they are currently sparring in, missing the entire point of practice.

By the same taken, Pembantu Guru Andy's "practice sparring" model also has pedigree; he likes to cite how Thai Boxers, who train all day, go at a slower pace than in the ring, so they can learn the move. They play. In fact, the Filipinos have an expression, "play to learn." O Sensei's rule to practice in a "vibrant and joyful manner" is not too far from that. Andy learned Kali from Guro Kevin Seaman, who did things that way, too. Yes, you do get up to full speed, but Andy beleives in working up to that point. If we're still in practice sparring, it's not because Pembantu Guru Andy doesn't know how to teach it -- and I resent the implication if that's what you're saying -- but because he wants us to take out time learning how to do it.
Lol. Don't resent anything Mike, what you cited above is what I meant about understanding how to teach the principles of freeplay. There are certain steps any teacher can go through to embed the core principles of effective sparring in their students. Your post above gave some of them.

The best teachers however begin at what you gave above and have a very precise and evolved method of feedback and measures built into these levels (e.g slower or low resistance practice building towards more resistance and speed) and are able to develop specialised drills and practices to build the weak areas that a student may have. This last part has nothing to do with martial skill, but generic teaching skill. It still does not change the fact that although a person may be a gifted martial artist, they may be a terrible teacher. They are 2 different jobs entirely. Imho not everyone should or can teach.

So while the ability of the instructor is important, if everyone has the same "textbook," then past a certain point, it doesan't make a difference. Well imo it depends on your goal. If the textbook does not help you sufficiently meet your objectives then I say pack it away and write a new one instead of wasting time. Going back to your karate example - how many karate tourneys do you see where even black belts are not just flailing around trying to get off a lucky kick or punch and score points? All of the form, tactics, strategy and bunkai goes out the window as soon as the heat is on.

Same happens in aikido, judo etc. imo. In these cases a good teacher observes, learns and innovatively designs ways of overcoming these challenges and aids the student towards that end while being extremely meticulous in gaining feedback and judging progress. A mediocre one goes back to the "textbook" to find what may have never been there in the first place, since you may be in uncharted waters.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Mike Haftel
11-06-2005, 10:02 PM
Stop argueing about this. It is pointless.

Jorx
11-07-2005, 01:55 AM
If pointless why arguing then?

Oh really... you think all those people are so dumb that they do not understand that this discussion can not/will not have one allmighty-clearing-up result in one post? Or yours just was?

Thanks for enlightening us! You are a true champion because of finally clearing up this long thread!

PeterR
11-07-2005, 02:10 AM
Nothing pointless about the argument either - its generating some interesting discussion. Notice its evolving from not what Aikido can or can not do but how you can train to make it do what you want it to.

I do think one of the problems of Aikido is that it has spread so far, wide and quickly that quality control suffers. The level of control is far more important with an art that does not generally have a self correcting measure (ie shiai) and provides a philosophical structure which allows a certain amount of escapism.

Kevin Leavitt
11-07-2005, 07:15 AM
Agreed Peter. I was just thinking the same thing about the evolution of the thread. It is one I have particularly enjoyed since it is more about the things you mentioned and less about "oh yea, well it works for me...so there!"

Saturn
11-07-2005, 07:21 AM
I was just thinking, perhaps in a real fight, if nothing else works some good Ma-ai might just do. You know, he takes one step forward you take two steps back, or if anyone is that concerned then- maybe you should get a gun and shoot the Jujitsu guy. But, that would be ridiculous.

Kevin Leavitt
11-07-2005, 02:19 PM
Why would that be ridiculous? It might be the appropriate action, depending on the situaiton.

Why pick on the jujitsu guy? :)

Probably semantics, but if he is advancing on you, you don't necessarily want to give up ground...it depends. Usually more like irmin and take away ground. You are yielding only to put yourself in a more advantageous position to control. (in a perfect world that is!).

Aikido is not about retreating, but about options! :)

By gaining experience, hopefully it increases our circle of influence and span of control, with that comes options and choices. It is what we do with our emotions and how we choose to act that is most important. Ma'ai is all about creating the relationship, timing and space in order to see the all the options that are there!

It really is difficult to say what action is appropriate in a fight.

Rod McLaughlin
11-07-2005, 09:15 PM
I have watched this thread for a long time and have finally decided to put my two bits in. I cannot say if Aikido would work in a fight but I will say that I work in a Correctional Facility and in my role as a member of the Emergency Response Team I have used my Aikido training several times to restrain or move offenders.

It's been said before but I will repeat it. It is not the Martial art it is the Martial artist.

An army of sheep led by a Lion will defeat an army of Lions led by a sheep.

Good luck with practice.

Keith R Lee
11-07-2005, 10:10 PM
Stop argueing about this. It is pointless.

Err, I don't even think anyone is argueing any longer. Just having an interesting exchange of ideas about physical confrontations, budo, and combative sports. Nothing wrong with that. Not to mention that, in general, many of the opinions being shared are from those I respect and whose opinions I value. I really have a hard time seeing the problem with discussing Aikido from a self-defense/fighting aspect with other experienced martial artists.

#

I have watched this thread for a long time and have finally decided to put my two bits in. I cannot say if Aikido would work in a fight but I will say that I work in a Correctional Facility and in my role as a member of the Emergency Response Team I have used my Aikido training several times to restrain or move offenders.

It's been said before but I will repeat it. It is not the Martial art it is the Martial artist.

An army of sheep led by a Lion will defeat an army of Lions led by a sheep.

I think Aikido is very well suited for use in situations with people who are going to offer only mild resistence. Great for correctional facilitites, arrests, psych wards etc. In fact, it's probably the ideal methodology for dealing with such people. Control without injury is the ideal goal for LEOs in my opinion.

As for the Martial Artist quote...I don't know if I particularly agree. I mean, I understand the underlying meaning of the quote and agree with it but a black belt in BJJ/Sambo/MMA is a world away from a black belt in Aikido or even Karate/TKD. Grappling and Live training/fighting is of the utmost importance, it just can't be denied. Everyone needs, at the least, a rough familiarity with it. Again, with the caveat of Kevin's excellent post earlier of as what one can define as combat. However, ONLY if the person's desire is to be combat effective with their combat training. If a person only desires personal refinement through physical training that I believe any Budo is the correct path.

Also Kevin, I saw somewhere else in the forums you were encouraging Sambo! Going to make a convert out of you yet! ;)

CNYMike
11-08-2005, 12:48 AM
.... It's extremely difficult to be as precise during freeplay as one is in kata due to resistance and a host of other factors, but the goal is to achieve the precision of kata in randori/kumite/shiai afaic ....

My karate Sensei has a different take on that; that's where I got it from. One night, we were doing some attacking footwork, and I couldn't help but notice that when I built up a head of steam, I couldn't stop easily; I tended to stumble/skid a little. I asked sensei how you stopped and he said, "You're not supposed to. It's kumite."

And I heard some years ago that Soke Teuro Hayshi, whom our dojo was once affiliated with, separated hi students into two groups: Those who did kumite and those who did kata/theory. They may still be related, but there is still a wide gulf

..... The sad thing is that the pressures of sparring encourages folks to abandon what they learn in kata and bunkai and resort to more primitive, intinctive responses or another art that they are more comfortable with ....

That's where practice sparring comes in -- it takes the pressure off so you can learn.


..... Happens all the time in my dojo with folks who did other styles before coming to us and experiencing full resistance randori and end up being stabbed like a pincushion .....

Which seems to confirm my original point that it's something you have to learn how to do.


Sadly, what they resort to is even less help. They return to what is known and safe, instead of attempting to apply what they are learning in the forms practice of the art they are currently sparring in, missing the entire point of practice.


Guro Kevin Seaman wouldn't let new students spar right away for jsut that reason, because he wanted them to use what he was teaching them and not what they already knew. Guro Andy has continued that policy. What you do in your dojo is your business, of course, but holding back the new people would seem to be a possible solution to that problem.


Lol.
:confused: What's so funny?



Don't resent anything Mike ....

Let me rephrase: I'm less than thrilled with your making comments about the teaching ability of people you have never met with no idea about what they are doing.


what you cited above is what I meant about understanding how to teach the principles of freeplay. There are certain steps any teacher can go through to embed the core principles of effective sparring in their students. Your post above gave some of them.

The best teachers however begin at what you gave above and have a very precise and evolved method of feedback and measures built into these levels (e.g slower or low resistance practice building towards more resistance and speed) and are able to develop specialised drills and practices to build the weak areas that a student may have ....

Yes, you and Guro Andy seem to be on the same wavelength here. I should add I'm writing from the perspective of a student who's just been introduced to these ideas; I don't know where to go with it as an instructor. That may have lead to some confusion; my bad.


.....If the textbook does not help you sufficiently meet your objectives then I say pack it away and write a new one instead of wasting time. Going back to your karate example - how many karate tourneys do you see where even black belts are not just flailing around trying to get off a lucky kick or punch and score points? All of the form, tactics, strategy and bunkai goes out the window as soon as the heat is on.


True, however, in fairness, it is worth remembering that Japanese systems work towards mushin no shin, "mind of no mind," where you don't think about the technique, it just sort of happens somehow. It's 180 degrees from Guro Andy's approach to try and cultivate presence of mind while sparring, but if another approach leads to mushin no shin, then who are we to say it's wrong? Not me.

Kevin Leavitt
11-08-2005, 02:38 PM
Keith, I wouldn't necesarily say that an aikido black belt was a world away from a BJJ/MMA, SAMBO kinda guy. I know where you are coming from. I'd say YES to many of the black belts in aikido I know, but you have to be careful about the situation in which you are applying it.

Aikido is more concerned with the study of Budo than training efficient fighters, so YES, given a high stress, all out fight, Aikido probably does not necessarily make you very well rounded for this. However, I have found that my BJJ trained guys don't deal well with transitioning from no use of force to use of force very well. They tend to presuppose that the fight is going to occur.

I value my aikido background as it does very well at keeping an opponent at bay and even preventing a serious fight from occuring. It is amazing how I have found the aikido skills to keep things from getting out of hand.

I am sure the Correctional officer above has had similar experiences.

Two different skill sets if you ask me, both very, very valuable...which is why I study both!

Pierre Rood
11-09-2005, 12:20 AM
Aikido will work fantasticly in a fight.

I have had a couple of fights when I was young, Judo made it a win in a simple manner (and harmless for the offenders, they just gave up on the threat of a broken arm). Fights were total automatically, no thinking involved, just acting intuitively.

But once I got a conflict with someone coming in with a baseball bat. I managed to get in my car and fled the scene. I was convinced of getting killed when I hadn't been out fast. Since I learned how Aikido works, and read about O Sensei's demonstrations I am sure I would have dealt with the bat quite easily if I had a level of say 1st or 2nd kyu. The bokken training, irimi etc. train your instincts.

I think the secret of Aikido is the blending of the natural fighting instinct of a person with the Aikido techniques training mind and body. It is very much the question if other MA's are able to operate outside of it's own vocabulary with any effectiveness.

A Kendo specialist once said that when in WWII he had to kill someone by hand there were no techniques involved, just hitting as fast and hard as possible with anything at hand or bare hand. I believe O Sensei found a solution for this and demonstrated this during his pre war demonstrations of MA supremacy of his MA.

Keith R Lee
11-09-2005, 01:06 AM
Keith, I wouldn't necesarily say that an aikido black belt was a world away from a BJJ/MMA, SAMBO kinda guy. I know where you are coming from. I'd say YES to many of the black belts in aikido I know, but you have to be careful about the situation in which you are applying it.

Aikido is more concerned with the study of Budo than training efficient fighters, so YES, given a high stress, all out fight, Aikido probably does not necessarily make you very well rounded for this. However, I have found that my BJJ trained guys don't deal well with transitioning from no use of force to use of force very well. They tend to presuppose that the fight is going to occur.



Agreed. I was definitely making a general statement. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. However, you and many other experienced members of the board know what I am talking about. I think Aikido is excellent for dealing with that moment just before violence, or even diffusing violence. It is also perfect for dealing with the mildly resistant person.

For myself, the key has been to study Aikido and other arts, as you said. Aikido and Sambo seem to compliment each other to me. However, as they are the arts I have spent the most time on, I am biased to a certain degree.

As a side note: tonight in Sambo we worked alot on the Harness. It seems to be a pretty popular move with alot of the SBG guys right now. The best I could find is reviews for the move here:

http://www.onedragon.com/prod_sfl_jjdvd_testimonials.shtml

We're planning on working on it for the next 2 months. I'll be damned if it isn't changing my game. Neat position.

Dan Carreau
11-09-2005, 03:57 PM
Hello

Well to be blunt if people are asking if it works in a real fight then perhaps they are in it for the wrong reason.

I have been with Kevin Blok for about five years and the DND from 1979-1981.

To prove you can fight is not an admirable accomplishment.

To prove you can use a technique to redirect a persons energy is what is needed.

The physical part of Aikidio is a very very small part of the whole picture.

Try to master the whole concept then ask the same question to yourself once again.

Ed Shockley
11-10-2005, 10:21 AM
This is specifically a response to Emma Mason. I'm not computer savvy so I hope it gets to the right place. Aikido will work against an abusive ex-husband as either an "itsu" or a "do." You can embrace the budo spirit of martial techniques ('itsu') and when he grabs, very likely surprise him with a broken elbow or wrist. You also could jab your car keys in his eyes, mace him, etc. I am not being snide. The idea of "itsu", as I'm sure you know, is practicing tactics that injure. In my dojo, and most that I visit, the instructors demonstrate routinely where the broken joint is and how aikido alters the motion to practice forgiveness. If you practice the "do" of Aikido then it will also keep you safe. The confidence, calm, and clarity of mind that comes from ten thousand throws will make you better able to avoid provoking the insane man who you described, better able to avoid being trapped in a confrontation with him, better able to unnerve him (abusers are cowards and feed on fear) and better able to forgive him. I often train with my seven year old because I teach an early morning Sunday class that sometimes is empty. I feel no anger or fear as he tries with all his might to hit me with jo's, kens, fists, kicks. I still position him for his soft ukemi and we both are safe. Obviously his reflexes make this possible. When we train enough then the alcoholic ex-husband will be the same as my seven year old. This is why I am in a dojo six days per week. It is not the "itsu" of hurting an attacker but the "do" of forgiving a fool.

Best of luck to you and remember that every technique is decided in the first instant.

PS: make sure that many people in your Aikido community know of this man's madness. The more people who are aware of his face and habits then the less likely you will ever have to face him in isolation.

pezalinski
11-10-2005, 09:56 PM
Aikido works just fine in a fight -- unless your goal is to hurt the other person... and if so, then you're not doing aikido (no ai-ki), though you may still be fighting.

Ulises Garcia
11-11-2005, 12:27 AM
Aikido works just fine in a fight -- unless your goal is to hurt the other person... and if so, then you're not doing aikido (no ai-ki), though you may still be fighting.

Hello Peter, everybody,

It's refreshing reading someone who values the SD side of Aikido.

I'm about to start my Aikido training, but I would definitely be doing it for the martial aspect of it. However, I have read so many experienced aikidoka here who wouldn't recommend it for self defense, that I have felt so turned off on the idea. I would take Daito-Ryu (it seems to be less bashed at), but there is absolutely nothing here in Mexicali. I don't mean to go down the street picking fights, but I sure expect Aikido (as an MA) to have some value IF there is no way I can take flight and my only choice is to disable the enemy(ies). A couple of nights ago, some person whom I had never met, came looking for me AT MY HOUSE (how he learned where I live, I can only guess). The guy was blind furious, and as courteously and politely as I tried to speak to him, he was hellbent on challenging me to a fight to settle the score. ALL BECAUSE OF A RUMOR!! :disgust: Said rumor implied that I did something very harmful to a person he cares very much about, but he didn't listen to her either (the three of us were arguing in front of my house). I had no desire to fight, for things would have been quite nasty (I was more than ready: steel toed shoes, iron hard fists, Karate training. However, he would've been back with friends and probably weapons). Fortunately, he desisted after a while. Thing is, sometimes you cannot reason with some people. There is a time in which you have to count on the martial aspect. I really hope Aikido can provide that (hey, it did for O-Sensei). I wish I had encouraged him to attack me, AND that I had been able to smoothly and peacefully put him in a immovilizing hold face-down on the ground, so that he could have listened to reason (and cooled down).

So, I have heard too that you get from Aikido what you take with you. Does that mean that if I'm looking for the martial aspect of it (definitely -do, but perhaps with a little more -jutsu flavor), I'll still be able to get it, even if the dojo I find is Aiki-fruity? This is an honest question...

-U-

xuzen
11-11-2005, 01:08 AM
Aikido works just fine in a fight -- unless your goal is to hurt the other person... and if so, then you're not doing aikido (no ai-ki), though you may still be fighting.

Peter, love your post. Short and concise yet carries much meaning. Many equate altercation with slug-o-rama, i.e., standing toe to toe in preparation for a slug fest. In his book (aikido shugyo), Kancho Shioda said no matter how good you are, if you are to slug it out as in a boxing type match (for the sake of argument), you will eventually be defeated.

Aikido and many budo type arts training allows one to deal with possible altercation in a minimalist way and get the hell out of harm's way.

I do not recall, any of the aikido teacher before us ever said aikido is a fighting art per se. But plenty have said that aikido enable harmony even in confrontation.

OK, aiki-fruitie mood OFF. Boon is back to being his usual mean Yoshi-Ogre (TM) persona again.

Boon aka Yoshi-Ogre (TM)

PeterR
11-11-2005, 01:42 AM
I'm about to start my Aikido training, but I would definitely be doing it for the martial aspect of it. However, I have read so many experienced aikidoka here who wouldn't recommend it for self defense, that I have felt so turned off on the idea. I would take Daito-Ryu (it seems to be less bashed at), but there is absolutely nothing here in Mexicali.
From where I sit Daito-ryu is no more capable preparing you for a fight as certain styles of Aikido. It really depends on you and who is teaching you. Strong Karate background - I think you could make good use of some good Aikido training and you should be more than capable of deciding if a particular Aikido dojo is providing the training you want.

CNYMike
11-11-2005, 11:19 AM
..... I'm about to start my Aikido training, but I would definitely be doing it for the martial aspect of it. However, I have read so many experienced aikidoka here who wouldn't recommend it for self defense, that I have felt so turned off on the idea ....

Hi, Ulises,

Yes, that is a good question and it does depend on whom you ask. There seem to be two schools of thought: One that Aikido is absolutely capable of handling everything you throw at it; the other that, as you say, you shouldn't even think of using it for self defense.

That helps. :hypno:

My personal feeling is that reality should be somewhere in between the two extremes: You may not want this if you plan on doing cage fights, but for many encounters on the street, it could work. Certainly whenever a thread like this pops up, a bunch of people surface and say "Yes, it works!" That's the last word on it as far as I'm concerned. And it's worth remembering that some law enforcement agencies use or draw on Aikido for restraining suspects.


... I have heard too that you get from Aikido what you take with you. Does that mean that if I'm looking for the martial aspect of it (definitely -do, but perhaps with a little more -jutsu flavor), I'll still be able to get it, even if the dojo I find is Aiki-fruity? This is an honest question...

-U-

I suppose so, but you'd have to appraoch it with an open mind and make a commitment to stick with the dojo for at least a couple of years. Think of the skills you already have as tools, and Aikido gives you more tools for the tool box. If they're Aiki-furity ..... well, if you drop out because of that, you'll never know what you could have got out of it if you stayed.

Hope this helps; sorry if it doesn't.

Aikido10
11-15-2005, 07:17 AM
I think Aikido is very well suited for use in situations with people who are going to offer only mild resistence. Great for correctional facilitites, arrests, psych wards etc. In fact, it's probably the ideal methodology for dealing with such people. Control without injury is the ideal goal for LEOs in my opinion.

As for the Martial Artist quote...I don't know if I particularly agree. I mean, I understand the underlying meaning of the quote and agree with it but a black belt in BJJ/Sambo/MMA is a world away from a black belt in Aikido or even Karate/TKD. Grappling and Live training/fighting is of the utmost importance, it just can't be denied. Everyone needs, at the least, a rough familiarity with it. Again, with the caveat of Kevin's excellent post earlier of as what one can define as combat. However, ONLY if the person's desire is to be combat effective with their combat training. If a person only desires personal refinement through physical training that I believe any Budo is the correct path.

Also Kevin, I saw somewhere else in the forums you were encouraging Sambo! Going to make a convert out of you yet! ;)
Wow...I work in Law Enforcment and I can say that the people who decide to fight don't offer "mild resistance" they fight like thier lives depend on it. The practice of Aikido has helped me more times than I can count. I have used it to exact compliance, restrain, and end fights. Granted controlling tecniques will be easier to apply with a "mildly resisting" subject, but in my line of work you treat everyone like it is going to be your last fight. becuse when you get complacent you get dead real quick. So knowing what I know I will say that Aikido works for me in Fights. Even against Resisting people, becuse everybody I deal with is resisting. oh well just my two cents worth.

Nick Simpson
11-15-2005, 07:52 AM
He was talking about not beating up patients in mental health instituitions, not taking down resisting perps ;)

Tim Gerrard
11-15-2005, 08:31 AM
not taking down resisting perps ;)

And who do you think you are, Sheriff John Bunell?

"Jail, that's where the bad guys go"

Nick Simpson
11-15-2005, 01:10 PM
Judge Dredd actually, you filthy perp!

justinmaceachern
12-21-2005, 12:39 PM
Look I know a lot of people out there dont think that aikido is practicle, but they are wrong. All I here mu tei and ju jitsu are the best for fighting stlye events such as ufc. My reply, How many times are you attacked By more then one person in ufc? Never
I am a aikido practioner and i stand by my art in saying:
Any boxer or stand up martail artes is always welcome to come at me in a fight and we will see what happens. Also i am not just one sided either, I also study Gracie Style Ju Jitsu, and taekwondo.

roosvelt
12-21-2005, 03:14 PM
Look I know a lot of people out there dont think that aikido is practicle, but they are wrong. All I here mu tei and ju jitsu are the best for fighting stlye events such as ufc. My reply, How many times are you attacked By more then one person in ufc?



"I have been watching aikido techniques at the Nippon Budokan17 but I find that those demonstrating do soft techniques. They won't work in a real fighting situation. Their partners are only taking falls for them. It is as if they are practicing taking falls. If your partner takes a beautiful fall, it makes your techniques look good."

http://www.daito-ryu.org/tota5.html

Kevin Leavitt
12-21-2005, 03:58 PM
Any boxer or stand up martail artes is always welcome to come at me in a fight and we will see what happens.

I'd love to see the video. I think you'd find that in the end that what you see on tape would pretty much look like classical UFC type stuff if there is any skill involved. Surely aikido skills are relevant and useful, but in my experiences when things start flying without rules, or limited rules fighting strategies pretty much dictate that things will end up against a wall in the clinch.

You might be able to irimi tenkan and take down a few guys for a while, hopefully long enough to get to the door, but I have never seen any "real" video footage of multiple opponent randori in which the one guy against many have walked away unscathed dusting himself off calmly with "many" dudes laying on the ground.

If anyone can ever produce video footage, then I'd be more than happy to change my opinion, but I have never seen it.

Yes, UFC rules do create a set of parameters and conditions where you can assume away many things and use them to your advantage. I think though you'd find in a multiple opponent situaiton though, that even the best UFC fighters would imobilize on fighter, irimi/tenkan, "stack" his other opponents in a line and make for the door. It is not rocket science and aikido does not have the market on this strategy...it is just that these guys are sport fighters and that is what we see on tape.

From the few UFC caliber guys I have worked with I have not found them to be oblivous, ignorant, or to lack awareness of how to properly handle multiple opponent situations. quite frankly I think they have a more realistic view of them than most aikidoka do!

bratzo_barrena
12-21-2005, 04:22 PM
Being an Aikidoka my self, it's so sad to recognize that there is so many aikidokas with the stupid idea that Aikido is not for self-defense, when in fact its main purpose IS self-defense, but for that it must be practiced properly.
These Aikidokas (the ones who state is not for self-defense) usually base this argument in the fact that THEY don't practice it for self-defense (usually they have "higher" reasons to practice), thus the way they excute techniques is just an Aikido-like dance, with no martial art/self-defense aspect in it.
They confuse THEIR reasons to train Aikido, with the REAL REASON why aikido was created, and that REASON IS self-defense. That Aikido can offer you MORE than self-defense, shouldn't mean that you leave the self-defense aspect out and just aim for the 'other aspects' of aikido.
Just think little, any one could train BJJ, Sambo, Karate, Box,or other martial art, not for self-defense, but for fun, for exercise, for illumination (?) or for any other reason, and with that way of thinking he or she can began to train the techniques in a wrong fashion and make them ineffective. And justify the ineffectiveness of what they do with saying that these martial arts are not for self-defense, because they don't parctice them for that. That would be wrong, right?
So, the personal reason why anyone practices Aikido or other martial art, should not be confused with the REASON any martial art was created, and that reason is self-defense.
Aikido properly trained IS a self-defense martial art. If you take that off Aikido, you're not doing Aikido anymore. You are just dancing with Aikido-like movements.

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL

Neil Mick
12-21-2005, 05:03 PM
Is this silly thread still going on?

Here: lemme settle it for everyone: Ikeda Sensei had it right, when he said: "Aikido works. YOUR Aikido may not."

Now, can we put this aside and start arguing about important stuff, like politics?? :p

Mike Fugate
12-21-2005, 06:39 PM
I do believe this is a topic that will never end. I do however agree with the statement " Aikido works. YOURS may not". Aikido is a good style for defense and VERY effective in CERTAIN stituations. Alot of time it will work great, but there are time and situations where it isnt going to be the best solution to the problem. It isnt a complete system by any means, nor should be confused as an inferrior art because of this. Are Karate, TKD, Judo, JuJitsu and Boxing complete systems? NO, and no one would argue that either, but does that mean we are going to stop studying take downs in Judo, or strikes in Boxing? Listen all I am saying Aikido has something for everyone, but not EVERYTHING. If you want a complete systeme look at O-Mei. :ki:

Upyu
12-22-2005, 02:46 AM
If you want a complete systeme look at O-Mei. :ki:

Was that a joke?? :confused:

Mike Sigman
12-22-2005, 07:12 AM
If you want a complete systeme look at O-Mei. :ki:Mike, that's like saying, "If you want a complete system, look at Georgia martial arts." There are many totally different martial styles and systems that are from the O-Mei (Er-mei) area. Some hard, some soft, many totally unrelated to each other. O-Mei styles generally claim to be part Shaolin Buddhist derived and part Taoist derived.... i.e., they like to claim they have the best of both worlds. Besides, a "complete system" means that there are empty-hand skills, the 18-weapons skills, conditioning methods, etc.

FWIW

Mike

Kevin Leavitt
12-22-2005, 10:20 AM
I don't believe there is any complete systems. Those that study martial arts for situational training such as military, police, and even self defense reasons must focus on those areas that are high risk or high probability in order to have the "90%" solution. There are simply too many variables, what ifs, and situations to cover.

I don't really understand if someone has done a proper un-emotionally based risk assessment on their needs for self defense why they would waste their time with aikido if self defense was very high on their list of reasons for studying. there is simply too many things we do in aikido that do not make you very good or effective in this area.

That is not to say that there is no value to be gained from aikido in this area...just that it is not the most efficient methodology to get there. I personally don't feel that ANY empty hand arts are that good in this area.

Also, can anyone point me to literature or quotations in which O'sensei said that "self defense" was a primary goal of aikido? I cannot recall seeing this anywhere.

Mike Sigman
12-22-2005, 10:43 AM
I don't believe there is any complete systems. There is a distinction made within Asian martial arts about "complete systems" that I was referring to, Kevin. Arguing the semantics of whether something is ever truly "complete" is not what I meant. Whether O-Sensei ever got into the semantics of "self defense" or even "martial art" in quoted sayings, in order to establish a rhetorical point, is even sketchier. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Fugate
12-22-2005, 03:23 PM
Yeah that was a joke, everything I said was a joke :rolleyes: ... Omei is a complete system, It is consisted of over 300 different styles of Kungfu, basically the best of the styles put in one, which also by the way perfectly complement each other. I know I study this system, My Sifu, who happens to be my closest friend and mentor, was rasied by a Chinese Priest. He learned this style, and I have seen much, felt more, and learned some. Im not suprised by your response, beause as hard as it is to find "real" Aikido, it is much harder to find real Kung Fu, expecially an Omei school. :ai: But regardless if you agree or not, I still stand by my comments about Aikido... Me personally I love Aikido, but to answer the critics honestly, one shouldnt look at Aikido as a complete fighting art, or "the answer". So in a way they are right, AIkido is more than just a fighting art. :ki:

Mike Sigman
12-22-2005, 04:18 PM
Yeah that was a joke, everything I said was a joke :rolleyes: ... Omei is a complete system, It is consisted of over 300 different styles of Kungfu, basically the best of the styles put in one, which also by the way perfectly complement each other. Hi Mike:

O-mei or "Er Mei" is a region around Er Mei mountain where there were/are some famous monasteries. To say "Omei Kung fu" is such a general name that it's almost meaningless. Er Mei has many styles of "kung fu"... there is no "Omei Kung Fu". Shaolin Ba Fa and many others would be the specific styles of the Omei region. "Omei" can't be a complete system anymore than "Georgia martial arts" would be a "complete system"... i.e., which style of martial arts from Georgia are you talking about?... same problem.

Is your sifu a westerner, by any chance?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

CNYMike
12-22-2005, 10:48 PM
Is this silly thread still going on?

:hypno: Yeah, tell me about it. :hypno:


Here: lemme settle it for everyone: Ikeda Sensei had it right, when he said: "Aikido works. YOUR Aikido may not."


AFAIK, every martial art you can name is backed by people who claim it worked in real life, including Aikido. So if people report using it in a real situation, that's the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned.


Now, can we put this aside and start arguing about important stuff, like politics?? :p

Yeah, would a matchup between Condi and Hilary in '08 be the most genteel presidential race in history or what? :)

Kevin Leavitt
12-23-2005, 01:49 AM
There is a distinction made within Asian martial arts about "complete systems" that I was referring to, Kevin. Arguing the semantics of whether something is ever truly "complete" is not what I meant. Whether O-Sensei ever got into the semantics of "self defense" or even "martial art" in quoted sayings, in order to establish a rhetorical point, is even sketchier. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman


I am tracking with lyou Mike. My comments were not directed specifically at your post, more or less in a general nature.

I just simply beleive that many of us get too caught up into the emotional issues surrounding fighting, self defense etc without really truly understanding the real core issues of why we are training. Everyone trains for different reasons, the problem is I think there is a great deal of cognitive dissonance that occurs in the process and the people that founded the arts do not match up with the people that are now studying them.

This is particularly true today in our society with Television and media and a society that is "civil" and less "martial" than in the past.

I don't pretend to have the answers to the quesitons or now what is exactly "right", I do feel that I have at least identified and had the "light switched on in my closet" so I can at least be aware of how our minds and paradigms affect what we percieve to be important about Martial arts and the expectations of what they will allow us to do.

Mike Fugate
12-23-2005, 02:06 AM
There are ALOT of styles that make up the O-Mei system. To be honest I do not train in just one particular style from the O-Mei liniege. I study techniques, applications and yes thee are times when we will focus on lets say VingTsun or maybe Eagle Claw. Everything is all together into one style, basically a style made up of many. Yes my Sifu is of wester descent, but what does that have to do with this topic? He learned MA from a Shaolin monk who fled China, ( O-Mei Temple) this is why there isnt just one style covered. My teacher was raised from an early age until Grandmaster passed away. VERY different from other MA I have studied, not alot of talk, but alot of results. Very Hard,, and also Very Soft. Basically the beauty of what O-Mei is all about. :ki: But if someone one here wants a specific style that is a complete system....Try a style that is local to me...Hung Fa Yi Ving Tsun. Complete system is what "they" call it.

Mike Sigman
12-23-2005, 08:10 AM
I just simply beleive that many of us get too caught up into the emotional issues surrounding fighting, self defense etc without really truly understanding the real core issues of why we are training. Everyone trains for different reasons, the problem is I think there is a great deal of cognitive dissonance that occurs in the process and the people that founded the arts do not match up with the people that are now studying them. I'm reminded of a conversation purported to have occurred between some well-known actor and Sir Lawrence Olivier (the actor). During the discussion the other person said something to the effect of, "Oh, Lawrence, why do we do it? Why do we give so much of ourselves, our insights, to the public." Olivier looked at him and said, "We do it for 'look at me', 'look at me', 'look at me' ".

In other words, behind a lot of the spiffy-sounding rationales for doing things, when you cut to the chase people are doing things for fairly simple and self-serving reasons, Kevin.

To add to the above anecdote, let me add one more. I saw a student ask a native-Chinese martial arts instructor, "What is the true philosophy of Taiji?". Having about had it with wannabe westerners playing "Little Taoist", he looked up and said, "The basic philosophy of Taiji is first to get through to their center and kill them.... if they kill you, your philosophy is no good."

Those two anecdotes of 'why we do things' and 'what we do them for' probably cover most things, when you cut to the chase. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Mike Sigman
12-23-2005, 08:15 AM
There are ALOT of styles that make up the O-Mei system. To be honest I do not train in just one particular style from the O-Mei liniege. I study techniques, applications and yes thee are times when we will focus on lets say VingTsun or maybe Eagle Claw. Everything is all together into one style, basically a style made up of many. More power to you, Mike, but doesn't that pretty much say something about those Dumb Ole Chinese that spend their lives working on one style, when you and your instructor can take the essence of 300 styles in a fairly short time? I wonder if it's genetics? Or maybe something else is at play here? VingTsun, BTW, has an interesting history (if you get past the one about the nun, etc.) and so does Eagle Claw/Pigua. However, they are not styles native to the ErMei region. The history of some of these things is fascinating and you might enjoy doing some research on them.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Morpheus
12-23-2005, 07:38 PM
The reason I started this thread was because I came here to look into trying another martial art. I checked out some classes and had a friend give me some lessons. I have found that Aikido has no practical application.


Huh? :hypno:

If you are doing Judo or wrestling, then you would already be practicing submission holds.

Morpheus
12-23-2005, 07:41 PM
AND IN REPONSE TO THE GUY ABOVE. SAYING THAT YOU WOULD USE EYE GOUGES IS A KEY SIGN OF SOMEONE WHO CAN NOT FIGHT FIGHT OR GRAPPLE. IT IS SAD THAT WITH ALL OF THAT TRAINING THAT IS WHAT YOU RELY ON. TRUST ME IF YOU GOT IN A FIGHT WITH A GOOD GRAPPLER OF ANY SIZE YOU WILL END UP IN A POSITION ON THE GROUND WHERE YOU CAN NOT USE THE EYE GOUGE.

Based on your statement above, you wouldn't last a second on a battlefield. Stick to your tournaments. :eek:

Morpheus
12-23-2005, 08:18 PM
First off, I am a very nice guy. Also, my whole reason for sticking around is that no one has been willing to admit that aikido has limitations. All martial arts have their strengths and weaknesses, but the majority of people who have answered this thread seem to not be able to accept that fact and still think that Aikido is the ultimate martial art, no one has been able to step back and really take a look at how aikido is practiced and it's relationship to real altercations........

Absolutely no one has said or appeared to say this, therefore you will never get the answer you seek, if in fact you actually want an answer.

This thread has the earmarks of Troll like intentions and it's time for Jun to close it in my humble opinion.

Mike Fugate
12-24-2005, 03:00 PM
Yeah, Eagle Claw, VT, Paqua arent native to Omei, but I already knew that...Omei is simply made up of Wudang (soft) and Shaolin (hard) to be short. One could spend an eternity explaining it....Also your whole statement about the "dumb ol chinese" and "genetics" is nothing more than ignorant to say. I am not, and dont have to explain the style i study and gain you approval in order for me to know what it is. I know and I understand why other dont , because not many study somthing that was brought straight from Shaolin. Im gonna go out on a limb and say that an older preist from Shaolin (O-Mei) knew what he was doing....and it had nothing to do with "popular" MA, but traditional. :ki: Im done with this topic....

Jorx
12-26-2005, 09:53 AM
Well the point is kinda moot because every one in this thread has a different opinion on what is "Aikido" what is "does not work at all" and what is "a fight".

To have some constructive arguments one should start on understanding these in the same way.

Anyway to you all anti-sport guys and TEH STREET is so much different from tournaments guys a big GET A GRIP from me. Most of these who talk like this couldn't eye-poke their way out of a wet paper bag.

Derukugi
12-27-2005, 06:04 AM
Just a general thought: Is it not the fault of the Aikido community itself that such a strange discussion as this comes up, by often making exaggerated claims as to what Aikido can and can not?
I have never heard of local boxing gyms sending out flyers telling people that they can learn to effortloss fling multiple attackers through the air... simply by attending a couple of classes.
Strangely, that is precisely the thing that I have repeatedly seen coming from Aikido places.
So, it seems to me the sceptical questions are invited...

Mat Hill
12-27-2005, 07:13 AM
But I'm feeling contrary so I'll bite.

I've used aikido in one door situation, six bar/street altercations (four times with success ie controlling the situation to get away or in one case to put someone down, once getting me kicked unconscious though I was very drunk, once getting me into and back out of a very bad position), several non-fighting situations like falling out of trees etc, many times in sparring against karateka, kungfuists and mmaists...

It worked in some cases. Anyone who tries to say scientifically if it works or not is deluded. It depends on the person and too many other (very) variables!

Morpheus
12-28-2005, 08:07 PM
[QUOTE=....I have never heard of local boxing gyms sending out flyers telling people that they can learn to effortloss fling multiple attackers through the air... simply by attending a couple of classes.
Strangely, that is precisely the thing that I have repeatedly seen coming from Aikido places....[/QUOTE]

Where have you seen this?

KevinB
12-28-2005, 09:06 PM
I've trained in Tae Kwon Do and Hap Ki Do for the past 7 years. I've also did some cross training in Kempo. The techniques in Aikido can be used in a real life situation. As in any martial art, it depends on the martial artist ability. As for BJJ, it's probably the best submission art, but once you understand it, you can see it's weaknesses. As for the eye gouge, if it works, use it. There is no ref on the streets. Plus, Aikido is not an offensive art. It was designed not to hurt people, unlike NHB competition.

Neil Mick
12-28-2005, 10:40 PM
Oh, fer PETE'S SAKE: IS THIS SILLY THREAD STILL ONGOING????!

OK, dammit: THAT'S IT!! Come on: GRAB THE WRIST! You've done it now!!

(no, no: grab with the other hand...now, switch your stance...and....) :D :D

Neil Mick
12-28-2005, 10:43 PM
So if people report using it in a real situation, that's the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned.

+1!

Yeah, would a matchup between Condi and Hilary in '08 be the most genteel presidential race in history or what? :)

Equip 'em with Thai Kickboxing gear and set 'em up in front of a Jerry Springer audience: and I bet I could sell tickets for $350 a pop, easy!! :D

Kevin Leavitt
12-29-2005, 04:31 AM
Oh, fer PETE'S SAKE: IS THIS SILLY THREAD STILL ONGOING????!

OK, dammit: THAT'S IT!! Come on: GRAB THE WRIST! You've done it now!!

(no, no: grab with the other hand...now, switch your stance...and....) :D :D


Neil, you've got to be kidding me??? This is coming from you? the guy that refuses to let any thread die for months in the open discussion area dealing with politics? :)

Have a nice day! :)

stefano marchi
12-29-2005, 05:25 AM
hello i'm an aikidoka from italy,i experienced with differents martial arts like ju jitsu judo kick boxing etc.i think that in case of real attack, anyone ask you what kind of martial art do you prefer,anyone call you before by phone you don't know what kind of attack is arriving in some cases can be more useful aikido technics than kick boxing technics.

Neil Mick
12-29-2005, 02:13 PM
Neil, you've got to be kidding me??? This is coming from you? the guy that refuses to let any thread die for months in the open discussion area dealing with politics? :)

Have a nice day! :)

Oh WELL!!! Politics is ONE thing: but threads about Aikido "working," or not??? :crazy: ;)

Morpheus
12-29-2005, 08:48 PM
Neil, you've got to be kidding me??? This is coming from you? the guy that refuses to let any thread die for months in the open discussion area dealing with politics? :)

Have a nice day! :)

It's not going on for months, it's been years!

Neil Mick
12-29-2005, 11:20 PM
It's not going on for months, it's been years!

Jeez, you're right: I just checked the date of the first post. :eek:

xuzen
12-30-2005, 02:54 AM
Oh, fer PETE'S SAKE: IS THIS SILLY THREAD STILL ONGOING????!
OK, dammit: THAT'S IT!! Come on: GRAB THE WRIST! You've done it now!!
(no, no: grab with the other hand...now, switch your stance...and....) :D :D

Oi! You stole my line. You will be hearing from my boys from my Legal and Copyrights department. Oh! By the way it is GRAB MY WRIST (TM) to you. :D :D :D

Happy New Year everyone.

Boon.

xuzen
12-30-2005, 03:05 AM
I have absolutely no idea what else to add on to this thread except to contribute to its post count and in the process help to elevate this thread to its exalted status as the forum's longest surviving thread.

Thomas Milton
12-30-2005, 06:50 AM
There is a man in San Diego with whom you might continue this debate in person, but at your own peril. I think the basic problem with Aikido is not the art but the students. Mean, angry people with a taste for violence generally carry the day. It is true that spirit trumps technique. And decent teachers weed out sociopathic students. The trauma of real fear and violence should not be underestimated. Why then does the Aikido community reprimand Chiba Sensei for "keepin it real"?

PEACE!

Tom

DH
12-30-2005, 09:03 AM
There is a man in San Diego with whom you might continue this debate in person, but at your own peril. I think the basic problem with Aikido is not the art but the students. Mean, angry people with a taste for violence generally carry the day. It is true that spirit trumps technique. And decent teachers weed out sociopathic students. The trauma of real fear and violence should not be underestimated. Why then does the Aikido community reprimand Chiba Sensei for "keepin it real"?

PEACE!

Tom

Keepin it real? Yeah right
What Chiba has done to some people who voluntarily offered themselves to recieve his techniques is dispicable. I have personally seen him cold cock his own guys and wreck the arm of a guy who could not train anymore that weekend. Two years later after almost breaking the elbow of one of my students with a ridiculous standing aikido arm bar at a seminar-which my guy was perfectly capable of reversing or not even receiving in the first place. He just agreed to work with Chiba and let him show him. I asked him to do it to me to "show me." I physically picked him up with my arm as the connection point and threw him on his ass. He laughed it off and called it Judo not Aikido. Whatever. As he walked away we all could see he was pissed and the SOB then did irimi as the next technique and started wrecking THAT guy. My guy had to stop training, we left at the break.... happily. His head student was very embarrased and offered our money back. We didn't take the offer as I liked the guy who owned the dojo very much. My guys arm was out of commision for almost a year.
Needless to say I don't think very highly of Chiba and sadly I have now met and spoken with several men with similar experiences. Sadder still is that some of his people seem to think this is great training and a wake up call for their technique. They don't even see the tacit agreement and abuse of it and themselves.
Keepin it real...whatever

Dan

Mike Sigman
12-30-2005, 09:12 AM
The trauma of real fear and violence should not be underestimated. Why then does the Aikido community reprimand Chiba Sensei for "keepin it real"? As Dan noted, Chiba's reputation for "keepin it real" seems to be relegated to when someone offers him their body freely in a dojo. I've never met Chiba, but I've met far too many totally unrelated people with very bad "Chiba Stories" to think there's a conspiracy by outsiders. The problem seems to be about Chiba and not with a ton of unrelated-to-each-other outsiders. Many Chiba loyalists will even be upfront and acknowledge that the problem is Chiba... and then go on to say that they still like him, they learned a lot, yada, yada. Good for them... that's being honest. But laying Chiba's personality and deeds on "the Aikido community" is not the honest way to go, IMO.

Mike Sigman

DH
12-30-2005, 10:12 AM
I play that against my experiences in Kannai's dojo. He knew my background, never said anything to anyone, but when I would show up for the noon time class...all of a sudden the techniques would change. It was a habit when you were late (which I always was due to the traffic) to bow in on the right, by the desk, and wait for him to ackowledge you. I used to wait and tell my buddies watch what they are doing.... watch what happens.... Ooh and ahs; came from his guys as of a sudden.. he started doing more jujutsu based work (looked all like judo to me)
At any rate the guy was a consument gentleman and would flip his hair and laugh and occasionaly wink my way. I brought several people there to train, and except for one women who ran a class in his absence who was VERY formal, defensive and just plain weird... we always had fun.
He had one Spanish lady there a real brusier with a pretty face who I just adored... great balance and light at the same time.

Ahh to be young again

My point was there is no reason to ever be ungracious. Everyone is trying to be open and learn and the atmosphere can be intense yet friendly all at the same time. Interesting that my experiences in Koryu-while the waza is a far more intense- the atmosphere is far "less" formal and more jockular than any Aikido Dojo I have personally been in. It's more like training with wrestlers and MMA guys.
Wonder why that is?
cheers
Dan

Neil Mick
12-31-2005, 02:59 AM
its exalted status as the forum's longest surviving thread.

Actually, I think the first Iraq thread holds that dubious honor. It was running on 52 pages, before it was shut down. :blush:

Mato-san
01-03-2006, 12:15 AM
I am curious about joeys "statement", definatly stired the hornets nest. Joey I am not sure were you grew up and all the rest of it, but were I come from the fights are actually "real" fights not NHB contests, I wonder how your bjj would fair in a knife attack? Usually thats the norm for a street fight these days, I have been attacked with weapons more than I have fists. Just my 2 cents.

Jorx
01-03-2006, 04:00 PM
I'm sure that joeys BJJ fares BETTER even if he has never ever done ONE knife disarm THAN aikido which has so far done only complex knife disarms on predetermined shomen and tsuki.

Funny that there are more guys like Chiba. "Keeping it real" by doing still the darn DEAD and patterned practice just even more hard. Breaking joints of non-resisting students. That's real yeah. I've seen guys like that around here too. Funny you see much less of them in any sport-centered gym/dojo.

I DO understand that NHB fight is not a "real" "street" "fight".

However I do not understand how there are still people out there that probably understand that they would get their asses kicked in ANY NHB fight by a live-sport-art practioner with moderate experience YET they chant that they could do well in a real fight. Or if they think that they could also do well in NHB style sparring why do they not try it.

Jorx
01-03-2006, 04:05 PM
Before the flamewar erupts - I am also sure that joeys BJJ with never ever practicing knife disarms would do WORSE than aikido done by athletic practicioner who has practiced also live sparring against a knife-replica against surprise attacks, defending and running away after being already "stabbed" etc etc.

L. Camejo
01-03-2006, 10:48 PM
How do you practice "running away after being already stabbed" without actually getting stabbed?

Interesting.

Jorx
01-04-2006, 03:05 AM
You DO get stabbed. If someone who wants to stab you - you will not see the knife. You will feel it. If you are lucky you are still capable of doing something after that and most reasonable thing is usually preventing repeated stabbings and then getting away.

If someone just want to show off with a knife or is arrogant enough to lunge at you like a beginning fencer then this isn't the "serious" "street" attack you are talking about or is it?

Ron Tisdale
01-04-2006, 06:38 AM
:) Depends. Real attacks can vary and are unpredictable. The things you can probably count on:

you can't count on anything.

Jorgen is probably correct that if someone has a clue, and is not attacking in a fit of anger, or is not a hype, the best attack with a knife is one where you don't flash it around. But I don't have that many assassins after me. With or without knives. But we shouldn't count out the ingenuity of criminals casually. One of the things I say in Kenya was thieves working in pairs. One would walk next to you, casually tap your wrist and ask for your watch. There was another one behind you, and if you resisted without setting distance that one was the one with the knife. He'd stick you before you had a chance to finish the first guy. One reason aikido works somewhat well in that situation is that your first movement should be to evade, leave the space that is the current target area.

But really, its all a guessing game here on the net...

Best,
Ron (seen a lot of strange things)

Jorx
01-04-2006, 08:16 AM
Yes you can't count on anything.
That's why your training should be like that in my mind - minimize the useless "depending on situation" crap - no matter how detailed scenarios you will practice they will still be scenarios. Ergo maximize the improvement and training of "delivery system" (I hope you are familiar with the term).

And THAT in my mind is the final and devastating kick to the nuts to the street vs. sport training argument.

Also why I think Aikido (or any martial art with traditional - meaning 20the century beginning japanese) methods and roots as a "self defence" (hate that expression) is rather unoptimal - there is a big empty gap between theoretical-philosophical ideas and patterened/scenario/something is counted on practice.

.end of rant.

Michael Neal
01-04-2006, 08:30 AM
I love this thread, please let it never die

toyamabarnard
01-04-2006, 12:26 PM
Had to throw my 2c in on this....

I have studied a few different things in my life some were not practical for me (the high kicks in TKD for example I would never use in a "fight"). My Aikido, howerever, did involve some kicks, quite a few Atemi, some elbow strikes, some pressure points, throws, and a bit of grappling. While I would incorporate everything I know in to a street fight, I have to say Aikido definitely works and is my favorite because it's so natural. It can be used effectivly without turning my body in to iron or doing any little unnatural things.

My first trouble with using Aikido effectively was trying to "force" and "powerhouse" it the way I did with many other things. To use Aikido effectively and to turn it in to a VERY potent "weapon" you have to "think in Aikido" and lose your ego.

Neil Mick
01-04-2006, 12:44 PM
I love this thread, please let it never die

troublemaker! :p

Raspado
01-04-2006, 02:11 PM
I have practiced aikido for about 12 years and also hold a purple belt in Brazilian JJ. You are right, Aikido as practiced by most does not work in a real fight. How are you going to reach my eye if I've got you on the ground in juji-gatame? The closest martially effectice aikido I've come across is that taught by Larry Reynosa out of Makoto dojo in Ventura, CA. www.makotodojo.com Every aikido person on this thread who talks about fighting has either not done it or cross trains in a more combative style besides aikido. How about "Well a grappler can't grab me". Just ask Gene Labelle about his not being able to grab Seagal.

Keith R Lee
01-04-2006, 02:36 PM
I love this thread, please let it never die

No worries there. It's like a big, sweet honeycomb attracting all the new little bees who come to Aikido and Aikiweb.

Michael Neal
01-04-2006, 08:39 PM
Now that Neil Mick is posting here I am sure it will last forever. :)

onekey
01-04-2006, 09:22 PM
You should do more study before coming to an conclusion that Aikido isn't suffient in a fight, or there is no strikes.
Start by looking up the history....what could be taught and praticed safely. Aikido roots comes from Aiki Jujutsu Daitoryu ..which is hard to practice with atemi and have an uke to survive the brutal beating. This was taught to Samauri ...Royality.
Look up info on Shinra Saburo Minamot no Yoshimitsu , from the eleventh century, how he carefully studied the human anatomy , he would visit battle grounds and dissect and examine the bodies of the dead to determine what would be the most effective way to strike ,blows ,holds ,joint locks and pins.this is just general knowledge ...but you should study in dept for yourself and you may see more clearly. The things he learned thru vast study he incorporated into an martail art tought only to his family and over years expanded into Daitoryu. this was handed down in secrecy .
After the 16th century the art was known as o-tome-bujutsu or know as "inside the clan martail art" . the art was kept secret and taught to the samauri unti lthe fall Shogunate in 1868.
So I hope you study upon the Art of Aikido .
" I have giving you a seed it is up to you to water it"
GK

Jorx
01-05-2006, 12:24 AM
No worries there. It's like a big, sweet honeycomb attracting all the new little bees who come to Aikido and Aikiweb.

OR you could say it's a big pile of s*it attracting all the flies.

However Gary... what you just said - most practioners know that AND so? It has absolutely no relevance in the world of today. Also we do not know exactly what training formats were used in that time and if we did it would probably not be suitable for most of us as we do not want to devote our whole lives to cold weapons and empty-handed combat.

So some people of TODAY have come up with different kind of methods and ideologys (some of which are surely reinvented old ones) that better suit the needs of a martial-art/self defence/whatever individual of TODAY.

And so in my opinion the whatever training format was used by all the mighty samurais who all could kick so much a*s or whatever training format was used in beginning of 20th century by some japanese just MIGHT be outdated/very context specific and have a LITTLE value now unless you are specifically drawn to the historical/philosophical context in which case one should admit it and quit rambling about street self defence, principals seen everywhere and such.

Mato-san
01-05-2006, 07:02 AM
If someone just want to show off with a knife or is arrogant enough to lunge at you like a beginning fencer then this isn't the "serious" "street" attack you are talking about or is it?
I was once in an encouter that started in a living room, and progressed to the kitchen area of the house.
When things began to go my way an individual went for the cutlery draw, and this was no domestic dispute. At that stage I had no training in weapons defence. And I always look back on it as a what could have been. My point is Knife attacks are not always planned attacks! Yeah, am I right!

James Davis
01-05-2006, 12:36 PM
My point is Knife attacks are not always planned attacks! Yeah, am I right!
Yup. That's also true for attacks with rolling pins, broomsticks, tree branches and park benches! :D

early rub up
01-05-2006, 02:02 PM
I have competed in both boxing and wrestling and I am now training in brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I have watched many No Holds Barred competitions, like the UFC, and it is clear to me that Aikido and it's techniques and it's way of training do not prepare anyone to actually fight. I know that Aikido practitioners talk a lot about concepts like spirituality, harmony...etc. but I also hear people talk about how it is a pratical means of self defense. Aikido does not have practical striking techniques or any REAL matwork at all. I would like to know how Aikido can be used as self defense if you cannot grapple or strike.
well ive benn doing aikido for 13years before that jujitsu i work in the security industry and i can asure you that aikido works iv had several incidents last year and came away unscathed i been in bar brawls road rage and work related incidents i allso know a young chap who has been trained by the gracies and is a very very strong guy and is allso into his boxing and i can tell you that he was more than impressed with my skills even when i gave him the advantage by having a hold on me before i started im only 5ft 9in and 12stone hes over 6ft and 14stone all his friends respect him because he is big and strong, guesse who he respects :D. ive allso put my mate who was a former captain in the s.a.s flat on his ass more than once the list goes on, i will however say that good training is the key im lucky that imho i received exellent training but there are many many clubs that are a complete waste of time but that goes for every style of martial art going. my club isnt traditional and deals more in street stuff we apply the principals in a street situation

Raspado
01-05-2006, 02:41 PM
Aikido technique works great in certain aspects of self defense, such as grabs, or holds--like in a bar situation, but if an aikido person squared off against a seasoned fighter be it boxer, muay thai, judo or Brazilian juijitsu I think you would find the aikidoka coming up on the short end of the stick. Aikido is not a fighting art. It is also not practiced as a fighting art.

Especially important to reaction in a fight is how you train. I would make a pretty accurate guess that most 90% aikidoka practice is not tailored to actually fighting encounters. The practice is tailored to singular-linear attacks. In a real fight, those technigues will not apply. Now does that mean that nikkyo doesn't work? No-- it works great. But tell me where nikkyo will come in when I fake a high attack, then quickly go to a single or double leg. Once you are on the ground, what defenses have you been taught to deal with that situation.

Maybe randori you think? I have seen randori practiced by both ASU and Federation shihan and I will tell you the students hesitate in coming into attack. One student will wait to attack while the other is being engaged. The only aikido people I see doing randori where everyone attacks at once, (front, back, side) are those taught under Steven Seagal's style ie..Larry Reynosa and Haroa Matsuoka.