Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-11-2006, 02:58 PM   #1
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

I've heard that one of the major reasons people start to learn a martial art is self defense. Digging deeper, though, one finds an almost daydream-like quality on how the martial art training is viewed. That daydream is where the person is at the center of some fight and becomes the hero. There are a myriad of aspects to these daydreams, but the common theme is multiple assailants, some kind of distress, and the hero overcoming all. Typically, it is viewed as just that -- a daydream.
However, there can come a point in one's training where the daydream seems to be something possible. Where the trainee is getting better at his martial art and confidence is setting in. Here is where daydreams, delusion, and reality can become distorted.

I'm going to change the subject, but I promise there is a point to all this. A few years ago, I had two wolf hybrids. The older one I helped raise with his mother. When the mother died, we were both hit hard. I found another hybrid pup. The older one was about five. Fast forward to a couple of years and the older one is now seven and the younger one is two. The older one weighs in at about 90 pounds and the older one has filled out to about 125 pounds. The young one is starting to assert some dominance on the older one. Well, one night, I heard some growling and fighting and looked into the back pen. They each had one end of a raccoon. I went outside and stepped near them to put a stop to it. For some reason, the dead raccoon was on the ground between them when I got there. The young one had his ears back, his hackles up, and fangs bared. And let me tell you that there was *NO* larger nor more fearsome thing in the whole world at that time (I've been that close to an enraged bear, but that's another time and story) for me. You see, I was close enough that I could reach out and touch him. He wasn't directing his fearsome-ness at me. No, it was directed at the older one. But, at that point, I came to realize just how fragile a human can be. I realized that if he ever directed that towards me (he never did), the end result well, to be frank, I didn't give myself all that much chance.

Today, I read the story here:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060311/D8G9D62G0.html
An alpha male was caught unaware by eight wolves from another pack. It wasn't even a contest really. The alpha male was killed. I don't know how much anyone reading this knows about wolves, but you don't get to be an alpha male by being slow, weak, or stupid. And I don't know how many of you have ever gotten close to a wolf, let alone one that isn't happy with you. A trip to the zoo doesn't count. But, given an alpha male versus an unarmed human, my money is on the alpha male.

So, back to my initial topic to bring all this to a point. Daydreaming about what one can do with their martial arts training is one thing, but believing that you can handle yourself in a dangerous situation can border on delusion. I'm not talking about believing in yourself or believing in your abilities. That's all fine and good as long as you're being realistic in those views. But if you've trained for a number of years and think you can competently handle yourself in a dangerous situation, well, I hope that you never have to because you may find yourself just like the alpha male in the story. Beset by a rival gang that is truly out to kill you. Train like it matters, train the best you can each time, but don't fool yourself into believing that you can handle whatever comes along. Take a good, hard, realistic look at your abilities and keep that in mind. Be alert to your surroundings when in public. Know when to retreat before a situation goes from bad to worse or even learn how to diffuse those situations. If something does go wrong, then use all of your abilities and anything in the area to survive. But don't go into it with a mindset that your training will win the day.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2006, 05:08 PM   #2
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Hard work without talent beats talent without hard work.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2006, 06:25 PM   #3
RebeccaM
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Boulder
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 136
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Yes, but hard work with talent beats out them all. :/
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2006, 04:21 AM   #4
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Training in Aikido is a sort of training in enlightenment. The wolf story is a good example. Two basic Aikido principles: Getting the 'big picture' and getting off the line of attack are life-long training principles. Hard work and talent are friends, meaning that they help each other. A person just has to keep going, that's all; world without end.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2006, 11:42 AM   #5
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,724
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Train to rid yourself of self-limiting illusions (de-lusion) and make the dreams you have during the day (day dreams) your reality.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2006, 01:24 PM   #6
James Kelly
Dojo: Glendale Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 109
United Nations
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

An old sempai of mine used to say, "be careful of what you day dream because you might make it happen." Meaning, if you think about getting jumped and winning the day, look out, because you might bring the getting jumped part on and not be up to the winning the day part. I haven't heard from him in years. I hope he's ok.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2006, 01:32 PM   #7
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Oh, heck, you mean I'll never be like Ultraviolet and be able to wipe out 700 armed commandos by spinning around in a circle with my katana?

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2006, 01:59 PM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Nice post Mark. I spent a day at a wolf preserve in Lancaster, Pa. Wolves are REAL intense. One of the scariest things is looking into the eyes of a buffalo wolf. When they look back...it makes you shiver, even when they are on the other side of the fence. There is no question who wins a contest with one of those.

http://www.wolfsancpa.org/index.htm

I've had those day dreams you mention. I have no delusions though...I know they are just day dreams. The other day some friends of mine and I did 3 on one boxing. Fighting off the wall is incredibly difficult. I was able to do aikido evasions to start, but without actually 'taking out' the opponants, sooner or later I get tired and get trapped. Interesting training...

What got you into raising hybrids? Did they ever show agression toward you? How were your neighbors on the whole thing??? Inquiring minds want to know...

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 03-13-2006 at 02:03 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2006, 02:52 PM   #9
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Hi Ron!

Hope you're doing well.

Yes, wolves are intelligent and intense. I got to get close to the mother of the "young one". She was all white, a little bit sick (she had the pups and then surgery for an illness), weighed about 150 (down 15 pounds from being sick), and very beautiful. I don't know who was more intelligent, me or her. But I she definitely had more presence. It was that kind of quiet calm encapsulated around iron strength of spirit. I'd love to be able to have that.

Yeah, I've had those daydreams, too. I'd be willing to bet most of us have. Even three on one is very dangerous if those three are really out to kill or maim. The end result of mutual harmony with no one getting hurt is an admirable goal. But I'm not close so I'll stick to training with effective aikido that does include using whatever is available.

Long ago while I was in the Air Force, my room-mate's friend dropped by. He said he was moving and had to give up his female hybrid. I said I'd take her. She said that she was pregnant. LOL. I said I'd take her anyway. She was a beautiful off-white and kind of small. Probably 65-70 pounds. But she was way smarter than me. And she loved people. I helped her dig her den and raise the pups. I kept one and some of the family got a few. (The one my Aunt took ended up being a Search & Rescue "dog".) Those two were family. So one day, years later, when the mother died, it really was a hard hit. The "old one" was about five and he howled for weeks. So I got another to help with the loss. That was the "young one".

They never showed aggression towards me. Only love and attention. (Although a very bad rivalry developed between the old one and the young one. Nasty stuff, but that's another story.) I learned a lot from them.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2006, 03:07 PM   #10
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

On the hybrids, I'm jealous!

On the three on one, we didn't allow head shots, but the shots to the body were fairly hard. We were using 16 ounce gloves (I also had a pair of grappling gloves I use for bag work, but we didn't use those...you could kill someone using those! I don't know how those ufc guys take such a pounding). So it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it would actually be if there were 3 guys really set on banging on you. The most interesting things to me were that the aikido evasions really did work while I had the energy to do them...and that it is possible to move with the incoming strikes while on the wall to aborb the punishment, then go into a spurt to fight off the wall.

The problem is that real attackers often target the head quite a bit. If my friends had been taking head shots as well I would have been toast once I got trapped like that.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2006, 05:04 PM   #11
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I've had those day dreams you mention. I have no delusions though...I know they are just day dreams. The other day some friends of mine and I did 3 on one boxing. Fighting off the wall is incredibly difficult. I was able to do aikido evasions to start, but without actually 'taking out' the opponants, sooner or later I get tired and get trapped. Interesting training...
Best,
Ron
Ron,
I Love this whole training concept/idea. Never thought of doing anything quite like that. I'm sure it can do wonders to help build endurance.

One nice thing to think about is as you said, you weren't 'taking out' your opponents which did lead to your getting tired. If it was an actual street encounter that escalated to that point then you would be taking guys out to survive. Hopefully that would happen before you got tired and trapped.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 07:10 AM   #12
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
On the hybrids, I'm jealous!
I have some pics that can be viewed here:

http://l--o--l.com/dragonheart_pets

(There aren't any pics of the mother in that group, though.)
I found that personalities of the parents mattered a lot. The mother's personality of loving to get attention got transferred to her pups. But, the young one ... his parents were really more wild than tame and it showed in him. He was a lot more independent than the old one.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
On the three on one, we didn't allow head shots, but the shots to the body were fairly hard. We were using 16 ounce gloves (I also had a pair of grappling gloves I use for bag work, but we didn't use those...you could kill someone using those! I don't know how those ufc guys take such a pounding). So it wasn't anywhere near as bad as it would actually be if there were 3 guys really set on banging on you. The most interesting things to me were that the aikido evasions really did work while I had the energy to do them...and that it is possible to move with the incoming strikes while on the wall to aborb the punishment, then go into a spurt to fight off the wall.

The problem is that real attackers often target the head quite a bit. If my friends had been taking head shots as well I would have been toast once I got trapped like that.

Best,
Ron
How many bruises did you end up with? I think that doing this kind of training every now and then does add a touch of reality to one's place in training. I think, too, that randori done correctly can also be used.

I agree with Michael in that if it were real, then hopefully, one would be taking out attackers as quickly as possible. I kind of like the advice usually given in handgun classes. No one is superman, so you'd better be going for a defensive position *while* you're drawing your gun. Besides, a moving target is harder to hit.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 09:49 AM   #13
nathansnow
 
nathansnow's Avatar
Dojo: Ryokukai
Location: Michigan
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 53
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Come on Ron, I'd take you in a 3 on 1 fight any day!! If I have this confidence in you, then you should have this confidence in yourself. If those guys were really trying to knock your block off, I would think that you wouldn't hesitate to throw some atemi to the throat or groin. Get one of them in a choke control keeping the other 2 at bay. If you popped his tracia with a good solid choke, it's down to 2 on 1!!
I think that if you're going to use aikido in a real situation like that, you have to really follow through with the technique (meaning you have to break the wrist with a kotegeishi, or make sure that he lands back on his shoulders and head with a kokyunage or iriminage).
Having said this, I know it can't be practices.... I mean who will volunteer to get their wrist broken this week!! lol If you find a particular partner that you really trust and is able and willing to go harder than anyone else, you can push the techniques to the edge and not kill each other!!

Oops, have to get back to work... this site is tooooo addicting!!

Nathan Snow
Michigan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 10:16 AM   #14
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Thanks for the vote of confidence...

The point of the exercise wasn't to do aikido waza...part mental toughening, part physical toughening, part awareness of the difficulty of dealing with multiples. We started doing push hands, two of the guys do tai chi. Both are good...one is fantastic (he's also really good at aikido). They also do tai chi boxing, and do the two/three on one whenever the opportunity presents. It was very educational.

The standing chokes are actually a very good response if you know quick ways to apply them. But it would have been against the idea of the exercise. One step throws are also good.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 10:52 AM   #15
nathansnow
 
nathansnow's Avatar
Dojo: Ryokukai
Location: Michigan
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 53
United_States
Offline
Talking Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Underst ood!!
I've done something similar to this in the past. One person would line up across the mat from 2 attackers. The timer yells GO!! and the 2 attackers try to take you down. Kicking, grabbing, and some shots to the body are all perfectly acceptable. 15 seconds is all you get.... but it seems like forever!! It can really test your aikido and takes you to a different speed!! After getting taken down a bunch of time you can start to develop some strategies..... and god forbid, implement them and have them work halfway decent!!
Just another thing you might try!!

Nathan Snow
Michigan
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 11:05 AM   #16
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Nathan,
Isn't that just called Randori?

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 11:59 AM   #17
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Quote:
How many bruises did you end up with?
Well, being a little dark (cough, ahem) I don't bruise all that easily. 16 ounce gloves helps too!

Those pictures are great! Happy is one brave pup!
Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 12:25 PM   #18
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Ron,
Gloves do help. Not getting hit at all does wonders! LOL!

I might try to add in some randori next class. We have some boxing gloves at the dojo, too.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 12:40 PM   #19
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

well, this was an informal, 'out of dojo' experience with skilled people, no beginners. Just to be clear...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 12:49 PM   #20
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Yep, it's clear. It just reminded me that some randori practice would be nice right about now. Okay, maybe not "nice" but good training. I hate to see what I look like on video doing randori, though. The phrase "running around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes to mind. LOL!

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 12:53 PM   #21
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

**Like** a chicken is better than **being** the chicken, in my limited experience!

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 01:03 PM   #22
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
**Like** a chicken is better than **being** the chicken, in my limited experience!

B,
R
ROTFL,
It's a good thing I put my tea down when I clicked the refresh button.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2006, 04:10 PM   #23
Michael O'Brien
Dojo: Nashville Aikikai
Location: Nashville, Tn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 288
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Yep, it's clear. It just reminded me that some randori practice would be nice right about now. Okay, maybe not "nice" but good training. I hate to see what I look like on video doing randori, though. The phrase "running around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes to mind. LOL!

Mark
Mark,

Can we get some video clips of this next randori training session?


Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2006, 06:16 AM   #24
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

Mike,
LOL! Video Clips here? And spoil my chances on America's Funniest Videos?

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2006, 10:56 AM   #25
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Delusion, Daydreams, and Reality

How did "Dances with wolves" get into this thread?
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:26 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate