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Old 02-16-2006, 10:32 PM   #1
Robert Jackson
Dojo: seishinkan
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Shikko, toes, ouch!

After ramping up and doing Suri-waza for my previous test and starting to work on Hanmi Hantachi for my next test; I've noticed my toes tend to hurt for several days after practice. It even seems to be getting worse. After 10 minutes of Hanmi Hantachi today my toes have been aching for the past 4 hours! The pain rides right down the last joint of each toe.

I'm curious to know if anyone else has experienced this? And what your possible suggestions are? Right now I'm just going to refuse to do it (in a nice and polite manner of course).

I've already talked with Sensei and plan on reiterating it to him next class.

I put my right foot in, I put my left foot out, I do the Aikipokey and throw you all about
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:49 PM   #2
Edwin Neal
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

it comes down to flexibility and conditioning... work it slowly and your endurance and strength should improve...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-16-2006, 11:23 PM   #3
Dajo251
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

major problem for me, is mat burns on my toes, that is no fun

Dan Hulley
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:35 PM   #4
Jerry Miller
 
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

You could be arthritic.

Jerry Miller
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Old 02-17-2006, 07:53 AM   #5
MattRice
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Quote:
Gerard Miller wrote:
You could be arthritic.
I am. I have a nice big bump on top, right behind the big toe joint. On an x-ray it looks like a wave curling over. Bone spur, no cartlidge left in the toe joints. Hurts like crazy. The rest of my toes are fine though, so you may have something different going on.

Basically a foot doctor said "I'll cut that open and knock the spur off with a chisel", all smiling and happy. "You'll be out for 2 months: can you just stop doing martial arts? That would help..."

Meanwhile I'm thinking: "I'm going to choke him out."

Anyway, I've had to figure out a way to do suwari waza without being up on my toes. Right now my left foot is OK, but if I kept on going the way I was (live toe only on the left foot) then I'd end up with 2 bad feet, hobling around like a dufus. Sucks.

Matt
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:05 AM   #6
Larry Cuvin
 
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Robert,
If it is me, I'll get it fixed. When its all healed, I can continue training with no worries or pain. Best of luck on your decision.
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:19 AM   #7
aikidoc
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Robert's too young for arthritis-hi Robert.

You might want to have a podiatrist check your toes. Otherwise there are exercises of gradual stretching you might try. See Ikeda's Za.

Matt: if it is the right big toe and it gets red in the joint where the foot and toe join then you might have gout. Depending on your age it could also be a spur.
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Old 02-17-2006, 09:35 AM   #8
Tharis
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Funny, I think I have had the same problem for several years now. Two doctors have told me it's "tendonitis" or something and I should just "stay off my feet for a while"...:rollseyes:...even have a bit of a bump on the base of my big toe. Maybe I should get that checked out...
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:43 AM   #9
Lan Powers
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

What a wuss.........hee hee
Hi Robert

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:35 PM   #10
MattRice
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Robert's too young for arthritis-hi Robert.

You might want to have a podiatrist check your toes. Otherwise there are exercises of gradual stretching you might try. See Ikeda's Za.

Matt: if it is the right big toe and it gets red in the joint where the foot and toe join then you might have gout. Depending on your age it could also be a spur.
Yes it gets red, xray shows a bone spur. Doc says "you're too young for arthritis" then looks at the xrays of my low back, feet, hands and says "you have arthritis". I'm 37: young shmung.
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Old 02-17-2006, 01:38 PM   #11
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Some schools include toe warmups in their daily warmup routine: basically you sit cross-legged with one foot up and rub the toes, bend them back and forth, thump the sole of the foot, and roll the ankle. I find that I am less likely to hurt my toes if I do this.

Spending a small amount of time--not long enough to really hurt--every day sitting in toes-up seiza might help too.

Some of our senior people cannot tolerate toes-up position for any length of time. Their aikido is still excellent. So don't give up, even if your toes are never going to love suwari waza.

Mary Kaye
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Old 02-17-2006, 04:10 PM   #12
tarik
 
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
Robert's too young for arthritis
You speak of osteoarthritis perhaps.

I have had a form of rheumatioid arthritis since I was a teenager. Unfortunately, a lot of damage was done before it was finally diagnosed.

See a doctor and don't play around with injuries. Properly cared for, they don't always have to be permanent.

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:27 PM   #13
Robert Jackson
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Thanks for the replies I have a co-workers wife whose a podiatrist so I'm heading to see her on Monday...

I put my right foot in, I put my left foot out, I do the Aikipokey and throw you all about
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Old 02-17-2006, 10:51 PM   #14
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

If you have swelling on the outside of your big toe, you've probably got a bunion, like I do. Years of ballet didn't help.

I'm not sure, even after having surgery, an orthopedist or a podiatrist would recommend going back to suriwaza.

Jeanne
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Old 02-18-2006, 12:04 AM   #15
DevinHammer
 
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Be sure your knees are pointed the same direction as your feet. It's common for knees to point more inward, causing the big toe to take all the weight and stress, instead of having it distributed across all 5 toes. (or 4, if you're a cartoon)

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
-- Jedi Master Yoda
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Old 02-18-2006, 07:39 AM   #16
rachmass
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Like Jeanne said; possibly a bunion. I have one bunion that is so bad that suwari waza is excruciating (bad knee too, but the bunion is the killer). Because of this, I alternate tachi and suwari waza (4 up, 4 down as turns go) so as not to short myself or my training partner on the suwari waza, but also not to make it much worse. Ask your sensei if you could do that because I have found it helps to not be down the whole time, but get the alternate standing/seated movements.

Good luck
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:04 PM   #17
necama
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Quote:
Matt Rice wrote:
Yes it gets red, xray shows a bone spur. Doc says "you're too young for arthritis" then looks at the xrays of my low back, feet, hands and says "you have arthritis". I'm 37: young shmung.
I know what you mean. I recently learned that I also have osteoarthritis and I'm only 30. In my case, it's only in my feet, and due to a previous injury. Doc wants to go in and shave off the excess bone. For professional reasons, I cannot do that just yet.

You can train around these conditions for the most part, but I have to avoid hanmi handachi and shikko, as both cause tremendous amounts of pain. Some days, I also have to avoid break-falls; they put too much pressure on the ball of the foot.
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Old 02-20-2006, 02:08 PM   #18
aikidoc
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Talking Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Robert:

Rheumatoid is always a possibility when you have bilateral multi-joint problems. Osteoarthritis is a wear and tear problem, although sometimes an injury does not have to occur. Maybe your toes are too flexible since you are such a "gumby" anyway. . Toe stretching might be in order if you are not suffering anything problematic. You might also try soaking your toes in Epsom salts at night. Watch your form as well and rest them.

Another possibility if nothing shows up is that sometimes you can get dropped metatarsal heads and will need to see a chiropractor to get them released.
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Old 02-28-2006, 01:44 PM   #19
Robert Jackson
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

just a quick FYI for those who care. Morton's Neuroma ... from the way I understand it a callous is formed around the nerve preventing the nerve from moving as my feet are positioned in Shikko. Thus, causing the bone to pinch the nerve. Basically *if it hurts don't do it*. Dr. Tim said just don't shikko unless necessary.

http://www.podiatrychannel.com/mortonneuroma/

I put my right foot in, I put my left foot out, I do the Aikipokey and throw you all about
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Old 02-28-2006, 02:53 PM   #20
Tim Olds
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

I had a Morton's Neuroma removed about 3 years ago. Everytime I did a breakfall the bones crunched together and cause enourmous pain! But since the surgery (and the healing time afterwards) breakfalls are fun again!

The toes are another problem for me; I too have problems with shikko. The big toe on my left foot has one joint that won't move at all! The doctor offered to give me a shot of cortizone to see if that would loosen it up, but I politely refused.

A wimp at age 48...

Tim
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:31 PM   #21
merlynn
 
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

shikko ... grrr the bane of my life

some things are so dear and so precious you have to let them go
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Old 06-21-2006, 12:23 AM   #22
DevinHammer
 
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Quote:
Tim Olds wrote:
I had a Morton's Neuroma removed about 3 years ago. Everytime I did a breakfall the bones crunched together and cause enourmous pain! But since the surgery (and the healing time afterwards) breakfalls are fun again!

The toes are another problem for me; I too have problems with shikko. The big toe on my left foot has one joint that won't move at all! The doctor offered to give me a shot of cortizone to see if that would loosen it up, but I politely refused.

A wimp at age 48...

Tim

Did they go in from the top or bottom? If top, did you have any instability?

"Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."
-- Jedi Master Yoda
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Old 07-01-2006, 10:11 PM   #23
Tim Olds
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

Devin:

I was fortunate, the surgery was done from the top. I have a small 3/4 inch scar on the top of my left foot...near the area between the 3rd and 4th toe. As for stability, it's fine now. It did continue to hurt for a few months afterwards, but not anymore.

I'm currently having a different problem now, with the right foot: plantar faciaitis. Went to the doc last week and it has not yet developed into a bone (heel) spur, but the pain is still there. The doc tried to talk me out of aikido... or basically any physical activity done without orthodics! (ie barefoot).

Does anyone have any suggestions of THIS foot ailment?

Thanks,

Tim
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Old 07-02-2006, 12:40 AM   #24
diesel
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

As mentioned this could be a bunion, more so a dorsal bunion. I had the exact same symptons. Get and XRay and see a podiatrist. After surgery, I have no problems now and I was only out for a month.

Cheers
e6
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:54 AM   #25
crickel
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Re: Shikko, toes, ouch!

As far as the mat-burn on toes goes, I can give a little bit of advice. Keep your toes curled up. I've seen some people doing shikko-waza with their feet flat - this'll give you nasty mat burns on your toes or even the top of your feet. I had this problem before I was corrected. The same also applies to rolls. Keep your toes up as you're coming out of them, or get nasty burns on the tops of feet and toes.

If it helps to explain better, shikko-waza is done more from a kida position, not seiza.
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