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Old 11-27-2005, 10:20 PM   #1
RDReavis
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Do symbol BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Okay, so I've got a friend that knows BJJ, which is sometimes *erm* used *erm* against me and my friends at unexpected moments . I will be starting aikido very soon, but regardless, how does it fair against BJJ (I wouldn't use it against BJJ as described above, but I would like to know none-the-less)?

Many thanks,
Rick

Oh yes, I don't necessarily want to know the stats of when I would encounter a BJJ-ist and have to use aikido against it, but I would like to know the comparison of both, since Aikido was based off of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu.
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Old 11-27-2005, 10:34 PM   #2
eyrie
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

{sigh}

Learn how to fight before you pick a fight.

Ignatius
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Old 11-27-2005, 10:40 PM   #3
RDReavis
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

I didn't say anything about picking fights or getting in fights; I am wondering how aikido does against BJJ. If I wanted to really kick his arse, I would join BJJ or some other, possibly more violent martial art. He is friendly-fighting, if that makes any sense...joke fighting, if that is any clearer.

Sorry for any confusion.
Richard
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:01 PM   #4
PeterR
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

You know if I had a friend doing a martial art and I was looking for something to train in - I would go to the friend's dojo.

Extra help, extra company, no stranger in a strange land.

Why do you want to start Aikido?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:12 PM   #5
Devon Natario
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

I will first answer your question:
Aikido vs BJJ

Aikido has good throws. Aikido has good wrist techniques which can be used for submission. Aikido has the focus of Ki which makes your stamina everlasting because you learn to relax. Aikido has good footwork. Aikido has good techniques against multiple people. Aikido is it's own art.

BJJ has good tehcniques on the ground. BJJ has good fighting takedowns and throws. BJJ has great submissions techniques with and without Gi. BJJ can not be compared to in groundfighting.
BJJ uses competition as a way of improving, which leads to someone becoming great at beating people that fight back hard.

Both arts have their own greatness. They both have weaknesses as well.

I was beating Shodans in Aikido and Isshin Ryu Karate when I was an Orange Belt in Jujitsu, but I was able to take them down and make it my fight.

BJJ beats Aikido because Aikido usually includes very little groundfighting, however, this does not mean it can't be trained. If you train your Aikido more on the ground, you will be able to hold your own. Just learn how to defend yourself.

You must understand though, to beat someone in their game, you must become better in their game. So if you wish to be better than him at groundfighting, then do Judo or BJJ. Aikido will add to that if you do both.

Devon Natario
Instructor
Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:26 PM   #6
RDReavis
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Why do you want to start Aikido?
Well, I started with TKD, which I didn't take a liking to, but I saw Aikido and the things that some of the sensei's (multiple sensei?) could do. I looked at it different from other martial arts because it's not like "I can kick your @$$", "No, I can kick yours; I know kung-fu"...or something stupid like that. There was no bragging and it looked quite effective. Which brings me to my next point: I'm looking for something that is fun and different - something that will last a lifetime. Overall, there is nearly no competitive nature - it's a martial art that doesn't focus on attacking as much as defending and gives a way to end conflicts without (many) flying fists of doom, especially from the nage (I think that's what you call the defender).

----------

I just read Devon's post:
So what is it that allows BJJ to advance on an aikidoka? Is there not an attack that we can defend coming from somebody trained in BJJ? Is there a way to "bring them into the game of Aikido" instead of the opposite? Regardless, I'm still taking Aikido

Thanks!
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:45 PM   #7
eyrie
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

If I had a dollar everytime someone asks the "Aikido vs [insert MA]" question...

It's the artist not the art. As long as you're playing by someone's else's rules, you'll lose.

Oh, and I'd do what Peter Rehse said too.

Ignatius
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Old 11-27-2005, 11:46 PM   #8
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Hello Richard,

There is a thread in the General Forum that talks about something very similar to what you are addressing. Try here.

-U-

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 11-28-2005, 08:26 AM   #9
ian
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

All martial arts have at their core certain principles - usually distance, timing and relaxation. BJJ is no different. Martial arts cannot be directly compared in terms of effectiveness - a martial art is a 'training method' not really a set of techniques. BJJ tends to focus on groundwork and thus is not really self-defenced based (if a person is on the floor in a fight it is easy for a 3rd person to kill either participant with repeated kicks to the temple). Aikido tends to stress instantaneous reaction, timing and blending. If you want to be a good martial artist get involved with what appeals to you at the time and spend at least 10 years training sincerely. There is no 'magic' in martial arts or better tehcniques - it's just regular, sincere, training.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-28-2005, 08:27 AM   #10
Devon Natario
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Rich,
Yeah, we have Kaiten Nage which is similar to a wrestling technique that I learned in wrestling. We have Koshi Nage which is a hip throw, etc. We have defenses, but they are not as good as the plain ole' sprawl.

The truth is, I personally never trained in Aikido on the ground in Aikido. I knew BJJ first, then brought Aikido to my ground game. It works wonders on the ground, but in my opinion you need to know how to fight from the ground first, not vice versa in order to use it there.

I am one that likes to know every aspect of fighting.

Aikido added a lot of good things to my fighting game. I can not take away from it.

If you want a BJJ guy to fight your fight, stay away from them, so not let them shoot in for their single leg takedown. But since this is what they do, he will not stay in your game.

In my opinion, you have to learn to groundfight. Anyone that wants to bring the fight to the ground, will, and without knowing it, you leave yourself in a place thats unfamiliar and it makes it hard to win.

Devon Natario
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Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 11-28-2005, 08:35 AM   #11
roosvelt
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Try systema first if you can find one.
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Old 11-28-2005, 09:11 AM   #12
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Devon Natario wrote:
I was beating Shodans in Aikido and Isshin Ryu Karate when I was an Orange Belt in Jujitsu, but I was able to take them down and make it my fight.
Devon,
I could beat Karate Shodan while just being Karate blue belt. What does that mean? Karate has some advantages compared to Karate?.

You learned BJJ first and the BJJ paradigms are fixed in your brain.

So everything you said is true, while the opposite is not false.

Many, probably most aikidoka are not able to deal with a typical BJJ attack, because they are not training to fight this way. The principle and even the techniques could provide good skills.

There are good (historical andother) reasons, why it is not trained regularily in most aiki-dojo, and the discussion, what you need today in a "real fight" will never end. So if you learned ground fighting beyond suwari waza and you think you need it, take it as your special value and keep it until you feel different.

But most aikido schools will not change anything, unless they want to participate in MMA contests. If your BJJ skills help you learning aikido faster, it is fine. Maybe you can convince some aikidoka to cross train BJJ, maybe I would if I had spare time.

Everything else has been said a hundred times, so there is no use in repeating it again.


Kind regards Dirk
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Old 11-28-2005, 10:17 AM   #13
Bronson
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Richard Reavis wrote:
Okay, so I've got a friend that knows BJJ, which is sometimes *erm* used *erm* against me and my friends at unexpected moments
How old is he? Sit him down and have an intervention. Tell him, one adult to another, that you don't like it, you don't appreciate it and that if he keeps it up you'll stop hanging around with him.....or "playfully" kick him hard in the nads

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 11-28-2005, 11:32 AM   #14
darin
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

BJJ!? Looks like doing karma sutra moves on the mat with men. But hey, its the 21st century so if someone is into that kind of stuff... its ok! Hell, you could do bjj on the beach and when the waves come in it will look like that scene from "From here to Eternity". And I heard a lot of these BJJ guys work out... some even have tats! Give my regards to Mr. U. Mountme.


Ok! to be fair to our BJJ brothers we hold (delete hands) wrists in aikido... for half a second.
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Old 11-28-2005, 02:31 PM   #15
seank
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

I have to ask one burning question regarding BJJ (I'm working up the nerve to ask the guys that train at our dojo). Apart from the dry-humping as Darin described, why would you ever take a fight to the ground and roll around in the broken glass and spilt alcohol on the floor of a bar, whilst simultaneously having your opponents mates kick you in the head whilst you roll around?

a) If you've got into a fight chances are you shouldn't have got into a fight
b) If you get into a fight, why automatically assume that you should take it to the ground? The distance and timing you learn in Aikido can be a great help in avoiding sticky situations like this.
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Old 11-28-2005, 02:54 PM   #16
Roy Dean
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Richard,

It all boils down to training methods and combative ranges. If your friend has already wrestled you to the ground, Aikido is not going to help. There are very specific movements you need to enact in order to escape his dominant positions (mount, sidemount, or having taken the back). In order to use Aikido, you need to be able to thwart his takedown attempts (either through striking, sprawling, or distance). To learn this, you have to do live sparring sessions with wrestlers, Judoka, and other kinds of grapplers, focusing on just the takedown.

It's difficult at first, and you may not have much success, but if you persevere, you'll get the hang of it and be able to then DICTATE the range of engagment.

It's one thing to know the movements and techniques, it's another thing altogether putting those movements and techniques up against a live opponent who can fully resist. You can train hard, and you can train smart- you don't have to get injured or injure your training partners to have realistic training.

This is my perspective, based on my experiences. I went from Aikido to BJJ, and I honestly feel that my Aikido is much better because of the incorporation of randori in the BJJ training method.

Finally, although BJJ players do roll around with other men on the ground, no one has to wear a skirt!

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
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Old 11-28-2005, 04:10 PM   #17
Steven
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Richard Reavis wrote:
Okay, so I've got a friend that knows BJJ, which is sometimes *erm* used *erm* against me and my friends at unexpected moments
Ah yes ... this is simple. Play his game. Next time he stands in front of you, kick em has hard as you can in the groin. That'll at least make him think twice about jumping you at unexpected moments.

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Old 11-28-2005, 04:20 PM   #18
RDReavis
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Ah, many thanks to all of you. I'm going to see if I could get some examples of BJJ from my friend in my spare time (once I get started in Aikido, of course) so I can begin to get an understanding of what it involves. Then I might get some insight as to how I should act from there. I am signing up, as planned previously, today during one of the sessions at the local dojo, yet I must wait for my gi to come in (I still have to get around to ordering it ). Oh yes, I must also order a new bokken and jo (I already have a decent tanto, but the others have been worn down a bit by my mother in her days of practice). Bah! So much to do! Well, thank you all for helping me out by answering my ridiculous and brainless question; I feel much more confident.

Many thanks once again,
Richard Reavis
Soon-to-be Aikidoka
Did I say that right? Ai-ki-do-ka? Heh, just wondering .

And oh yes...might I add that I am still laughing over Darin's wonderful comments concerning BJJ students
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Old 11-28-2005, 04:22 PM   #19
RDReavis
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote:
Ah yes ... this is simple. Play his game. Next time he stands in front of you, kick em has hard as you can in the groin. That'll at least make him think twice about jumping you at unexpected moments.

In response to both Steven and Bronson's comments:
Just got your messages. How cruel...but so justified... I'll think of that next time...
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Old 11-28-2005, 05:30 PM   #20
darin
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Forgot about the skirt! Both arts do techniques from a kneeling position too (but in aikdio not without dinner and a movie).

And you have to admit that you can do aikido into your old age... aiagra!

On a "roll" here guys!
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Old 11-28-2005, 05:54 PM   #21
Steven Gubkin
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Here is my opinion on the matter.
1. To the people making fun of BJJ because "it looks like gay sex lol!!!11!1", try growing up. "OMG CPR looks kinda like kissing, no way i'd ever practice that on a dood roflmao"

2. No one ever said that being on the ground is the best place to be in a multiple attacker situation. However, the throws that you learn in BJJ will be usefull, and the ground skills will be useful if you get taken down. Also, the only way to get good at takedown defenses is to learn about and practise them with people who are actvely trying to take you down. The takedown defense you learn will be very usefull in any fight, especially if you prefer the stand-up game.

3. To answer your question truthfully, unless you train at a very rare aikido dojo, your pure aikido skills will not be able to compare to your freinds pure BJJ skills. Why? Because it is much easier for a BJJ player to force you to play his game, than it is for you to force the BJJ player to play yours. You will only have a few seconds before he clinches, and goes for the takedown. Your Aikido better be damned good.

4. The BJJ player will be used to using his skills in a full resistance enviroment, possibly with strikes. Most Aikido is taught through Kata, or through non-resistive randori. This means that the average Aikidoka has no idea how to deal with someone else actually trying to attack them with any real conviction. Wrist locks are REALLY hard to apply when someone just pulls their hand back hard. Most of the throws require Uke to follow you around in a way that is not at all intuitive to most people.

5. As far as Aikido being a more peacefull art, I have already started a thread on this. I still beleive that BJJ offers more peaceful resolutions to a fight than Aikido does. Whereas Aikido relies on applying standing joint locks, which can permanently damage someone if the do not have good Ukemi, BJJ always utilizes a pin in combination with a joint lock or choke. Pulling gaurd and going for a triangle is the most peaceful way I can think of ending a fight. You don't have to worry about the other person getting hurt during the takedown, because you cushion them, and the triangle choke will put them safely to sleep. If you try to whip out a shihonage on someone with no training, however, if you do get it to work, you will probably tear the person's shoulder muscles as a result.

In my opinion, Aikido is not at all usefull in a fight. BJJ is. Where Aikido IS useful, is before the fight starts. If someone is pushing you around trying to get you to fight, I can see aot of Aikido techniques working, and stopping the fight before it starts. If someone throws a wild haymaker and tries to knock you out with the first punch, sure you might be able to get off an iriminage and floor the dude. But if the guy has ever watched any boxing, and tries to emulate them in the fight (hands up, jabbing, throwing hooks), even if they haven't ever trained in boxing, your Aikido probably won't work. If the guy is intent on taking the fight to the ground, Aikido probably will not work. BJJ will.

I would really recommend that you try out both the Aikido and the BJJ for a couple of weeks each, and see which one you personally like better. If you have the time train both! They are both good arts, it's just that they are really geared towards totally different things. Aikido is good exercise, can be very beautiful, and has some application to resolving a fight physically before it really starts. BJJ is an excellent way to learn how to fight, and offers some very good, non-violent solutions. It is also great exercse, and can have the same sort of beauty that Aikido does if you have the eye for it.

Really it all depends on why you want to train. Since it seems like you want to be able to pwn your freind, I would suggest BJJ. Or you could take a good striking art, like boxing, Muay Thai, or Kyukushin karate. If you want to own your freind, don't take Aikido. It probably won't work.
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Old 11-28-2005, 06:50 PM   #22
Devon Natario
 
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
Devon,
I could beat Karate Shodan while just being Karate blue belt. What does that mean? Karate has some advantages compared to Karate?.

You learned BJJ first and the BJJ paradigms are fixed in your brain.

So everything you said is true, while the opposite is not false.

Many, probably most aikidoka are not able to deal with a typical BJJ attack, because they are not training to fight this way. The principle and even the techniques could provide good skills.

There are good (historical andother) reasons, why it is not trained regularily in most aiki-dojo, and the discussion, what you need today in a "real fight" will never end. So if you learned ground fighting beyond suwari waza and you think you need it, take it as your special value and keep it until you feel different.

But most aikido schools will not change anything, unless they want to participate in MMA contests. If your BJJ skills help you learning aikido faster, it is fine. Maybe you can convince some aikidoka to cross train BJJ, maybe I would if I had spare time.

Everything else has been said a hundred times, so there is no use in repeating it again.


Kind regards Dirk
I may not have written it correctly.

The point is that BJJ practitioners can beat people on the ground with very little training, even those that have trained for long periods. He asked if it was useful against BJJ. My answer was to display that Aikido is pretty darn useless against anyone with some ground fighting experience, unless they train in ground fighting.

I am not here trying to convert Aikidoka to cross train, I am only here to give my opinion in which I have learned over my 20+ years of martial arts experience. The entire reason to answer a post is not to start an argument or hurt feelings, but to pass the knowledge on to others. That is what I do. So if I offended you in any way, I am sorry.

Devon Natario
Instructor
Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 11-28-2005, 07:45 PM   #23
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

BJJ isn't all that great for the streets unless you get taken down. Aikido is a lot better for those situations that involve stand up. People on the streets aren't amazing groundfighters or anything like that so if you know how to apply your art properly then you shouldn't have a problem. Let's say that if an aikidoka got somehow attacked by some rogue BJJ expert or judoka on the streets or in the battlefield...Aikido would have the upper hand...that is...if it's an aikidoka that knows how to apply his/her art. Remember, Aikido is the preferred martial art among law enforcement agencies throughout the world.
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Old 11-28-2005, 08:37 PM   #24
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

I think there are 2 different kinds of fights too. Theres fighter against fighter and fighter against attacker. If you want to train to compete against other fighters then aikido is probably not the best art out there. If you are trying to train to protect yourself from attackers on the street who really dont know any specific fighting skills then aikido can come much more in handy. Thats my take on it.
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Old 11-28-2005, 10:47 PM   #25
RDReavis
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Re: BJJ is beginning to make me mad...

So in a quick decision, if you were to choose from BJJ or Aikido, which would you choose and why? In my situation a surprisingly large amount of people do martial arts in my surroundings. What I'm seeming to hear is that you have to have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing in order to defeat them with Aikido. From the fights I've seen, people are using fast punches and not fully dedicating themselves. It's getting quite late here, and I'm beginning to think irrationally, but I don't even know much about BJJ, so I don't know what I'm up against with either take-down or other forms of fighting. Should this be something I would talk to my local sensei about? I mean should I ask him/her about grappling arts and if he/she has any experience in those specific areas when put up against Aikido? I'm really not sure now... I mean, hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

Sorry about my ignorance and arrogance.
Richard Reavis
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