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Old 03-24-2001, 09:14 PM   #1
The One
Dojo: The Universe
Location: USA
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Do symbol

I recently started taking lessons in a style called "Aki-Jitsu". It is an ecclectic of many systems and styles of martial arts including aikido, judo, karate, wing chun, and tai chi.

What I would like to ask is, what do you guys think of a school that teaches a form of aikido combined with the kicks and strikes and different concepts from karate and wing chun? Would you consider them non aiki? How effective or traditional would you think the aikido in this form would be?

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-25-2001, 02:15 AM   #2
Kami
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Unhappy AKIJUTSU(?) AND AIKIDO

Quote:
The One wrote:
I recently started taking lessons in a style called "Aki-Jitsu". It is an ecclectic of many systems and styles of martial arts including aikido, judo, karate, wing chun, and tai chi.
What I would like to ask is, what do you guys think of a school that teaches a form of aikido combined with the kicks and strikes and different concepts from karate and wing chun? Would you consider them non aiki? How effective or traditional would you think the aikido in this form would be?
KAMI : I really don't know...Morihei Ueshiba Kaiso created a system (Aikido) based on Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, Goto Ha Yagyu Shingan Ryu and a few other arts and he used permanently a lot of atemi(just look at the book BUDO by John Stevens). Also it has been said that the Kaiso spoke : "Aikido is 90% atemi"...
The only problem I see is the kind of atemi (there are many. Some adapt easily to Aikido, some do not). Apparently Ueshiba Okina used atemi from Yagyu Shingan Ryu.
Perhaps this will help you
Best regards

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 03-25-2001, 05:58 AM   #3
ze'ev erlich
 
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Thumbs up used tea bags

Ecclectic styles are like a cup of tea with 5 different used tea-bags.

But if you enjoy it...then have a good time.



Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
www.aikikai.org.il
Israeli Aikido Organiziation (Aikikai)

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Old 03-25-2001, 08:06 AM   #4
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

I began my martial arts training in Wing Chun Kung Fu when I started college. When I transfered to a new college (a better one) I was no longer able to study Wing Chun (no dojo around). I started reading about Aikido and learned that the philosophy of Aikido and its principles were very similar to Wing Chun (just without the kicks and strikes). Wing Chun focuses on timing and using the opponents imbalance against them. An example would be during "trapping hands" exercises.

Depending on how the training at your new dojo is conducted, I would say that the two arts of Wing Chun and Aikido make good complements. Both were developed with the intention of not having to use much of your own strength to successfully accomplish the techniques (Wing Chun was founded by a Chinese Nun who saw the need for a martial art that allowed smaller, less physically strong people to defend themselves).

I don't think the art would be "traditional" in the sense that this style most likely only takes the good from each art. You know, it sounds similar to Jeet Kun Do (art founded by Bruce Lee). Sensei Lee combined aspects of Wing Chun, Fencing, Boxing, and Judo when he developed Jeet Kun Do.

Good luck with your training and have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 03-25-2001, 09:37 AM   #5
PeterR
 
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Re: AKIJUTSU(?) AND AIKIDO

Mochizuki developed a pretty eclectic system but he had major history in Judo , Karate and Aikido. This is a far cry from some guy studying a few things here and there and calling it what sells. All I can say is look deep into the background.

Ubaldo: John Steven's wrote Budo????

Quote:
Kami wrote:
Quote:
The One wrote:
A form of aikido combined with the kicks and strikes and different concepts from karate and wing chun? Would you consider them non aiki? How effective or traditional would you think the aikido in this form would be?
KAMI : I really don't know...Morihei Ueshiba Kaiso created a system (Aikido) based on Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu, Goto Ha Yagyu Shingan Ryu and a few other arts and he used permanently a lot of atemi(just look at the book BUDO by John Stevens).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-25-2001, 11:09 AM   #6
Kami
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Smile Re: Re: AKIJUTSU(?) AND AIKIDO

[quote]PeterR wrote:
[b]Mochizuki developed a pretty eclectic system but he had major history in Judo , Karate and Aikido. This is a far cry from some guy studying a few things here and there and calling it what sells. All I can say is look deep into the background.
Ubaldo: John Steven's wrote Budo????

KAMI : You're absolutely right, Peter! In my opinion, Aikido is an eccletic style, borrowing from many MA, but it was created by a martial art genius and so it should be. It's definitely a far cry from people who "invented a new art", picking a "little here, a little there", without any real knowledge. And I also don't like when someone "invents" a new name, with a pseudo-japanese sounding name.
On another point, "BUDO", by John Stevens is not just a compilation of the old BUDO RENSHU by Ueshiba. It contains BUDO RENSHU, the complete photo sequence at Noma Dojo (where you can see clearly the influence of Yagyu Shingan Ryu in Ueshiba Kaiso's atemi)and a large introduction by Kisshomaru Ueshiba with a biography of his father.
It's a very beautiful book and everyone should buy it.
- "BUDO : Teachings of the Founder of Aikido" - ISBN 4.7700-1532-1 - US$ 23.00
Translated and edited by John Stevens - Kodansha International.
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 03-25-2001, 11:35 AM   #7
PeterR
 
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Hi Ubaldo;

There are a few martial art geniuses in this city so it is a sore point.

I did not remember John Stevens's being listed as an author of Budo: Teachings of the Founder of Aikido but then again I was busy looking at the picis - it is a beautiful book. On Amazon there are a couple of other books by Morihei Ueshiba where John Steven's is listed as either editor or compiler but not for Budo. Of course that does not mean he did not have his hand in there. Kenji Tomiki apparently was one of those involved in producing the original Budo but understandably only Ueshiba is listed as author. A long tradition of student slave labour - I love it.



Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-25-2001, 02:36 PM   #8
aikijames
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saposedly o-sensi learn aiki-jutsu before making aikido. i saw that on a video from Sensi DR. Lee Ah Loi

There are many paths up the mountain but they all see the same moon.

James
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Old 03-25-2001, 03:31 PM   #9
The One
Dojo: The Universe
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Unhappy Used Tea Bags!?!

Both of the systems I train in are ecclectics... Like one of them teaches traditional Karate but with a little jujitsu here and there for self defense techniques. Isn't that ok as long as they fully teach the traditional base art?

Well all I can hope is that this new style that I am taking has enough Aikido or even Wing Chun in it to be not be completely similar to Karate. I wouldn't want to be wasting my money on another school where I learn the same thing.

And btw, is there any kicking atemi in Aikido??? Another art in this system is Savate (french foot fighting).

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-25-2001, 03:38 PM   #10
PeterR
 
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Yes James;

The name Aikido only existed after 1940, before that it was Aikibudo or Aikijujitsu. That was made clear in several of the above posts and any history you read.

The point though is that just because someone calls what they do Aiki-Jitsu does not make it that. It is very important to check background rather than what it says on the store front.

There is a lot more in depth information available on the internet and books than the few minutes Ah Loi Lee sensei was able to cover.

Quote:
aikijames wrote:
saposedly o-sensi learn aiki-jutsu before making aikido. i saw that on a video from Sensi DR. Lee Ah Loi

There are many paths up the mountain but they all see the same moon.

James

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-25-2001, 04:53 PM   #11
The One
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Can anyone tell me what "Aki" means? I know Jutsu and Jitsu mean the art or science of. Or do they both mean different things?

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-25-2001, 08:31 PM   #12
Mike Collins
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Aiki- The quick version is blending energy. There are about a million different transliterations, depending on who you ask and what kind of axe they have to grind.

As to what I personally think of an eclectic art- I don't have an opinion of any art, the art is not as important as the teacher. Seek out the very best teacher you can find, and you'll recognize him/her when you find him/her. Trust your instincts about the teacher that best fits you. The art is only a framework, the learning comes from the paradigm and the intent you put into it, not from knowing a lot of "moves". Aikido is a great art, but it certainly isn't the only or the best, unless we individually make it that.

Good luck, have fun, persevere, look deeply.
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Old 03-25-2001, 08:33 PM   #13
Mike Collins
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I just noticed you aske about aki, not aiki. Beats the hell out of me.
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Old 03-26-2001, 04:48 AM   #14
Kami
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AKI-Jutsu???

Quote:
Mikey wrote:
I just noticed you aske about aki, not aiki. Beats the hell out of me.
KAMI : Sometimes people just want to give a japanese sounding name to arts they "created". Bruce Tegner, of infamous memory in the 60's, "created" an art called JUKADO (you know it...JUdo, KArate and AIkido...); someone devised an art he called "X-Jutsu-Do" (Jutsu and Do together???) and in Brazil an art was "created" called "AMI-JUTSU"("Arte marcial Integrativa" Jutsu - Integrated Martial Art-Jutsu). I think I even heard about a "SUGAR-RYU JUJUTSU" (Heaven help us!)
The list is non-ending...
Best

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 03-26-2001, 05:11 AM   #15
Arunabha Sengupta
Dojo: Calcutta Judo Club Dojo
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Kami Wrote:
_______________________________________
Bruce Tegner, of infamous memory in the 60's, "created" an art called JUKADO (you know it...JUdo, KArate and AIkido...); someone devised an art he called "X-Jutsu-Do" (Jutsu and Do together???) and in Brazil an art was "created" called "AMI-JUTSU"("Arte marcial Integrativa" Jutsu - Integrated Martial Art-Jutsu). I think I even heard about a "SUGAR-RYU JUJUTSU" (Heaven help us!)
The list is non-ending...
________________________________________

I am from India. There are several clowns out here who claim to have found new Martial Art Forms. After Mas Oyama's Kyokushin Kai Kan style of Karate became popular out here two of the new styles that came out were :
"Byagra Kan" and "Mawtsho Kan"
When you come to know that in local lingo Byagra means tiger and Mawtsho means - hold your breath - Fish !!!, you really can't help laughing.
That too from India, where authentic ancient martial styles like Kalaripayyat evolved and still exist. I don't know why people go copying and mimicking and making clowns of themselves in this fashion.

Avoid rather than Check,
Check rather than Hurt,
Hurt rather than Maim,
Maim rather than Kill
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Old 03-26-2001, 08:08 AM   #16
The One
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Yeah," Aki". I already know what Aiki means. Anyway, about Used Tea Bags.

Who ever said 5 used tea bags isn't better than 1 new one? Those 5 bags are different flavors all combined into one. I don't know about you but I wouldn't mind having a 5 flavor tea over 1.

(BTW: I'm in school right now so I might not reply that quick.)

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-26-2001, 05:38 PM   #17
Chris P.
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Quote:
The One wrote:
Yeah," Aki". I already know what Aiki means. Anyway, about Used Tea Bags.

Who ever said 5 used tea bags isn't better than 1 new one? Those 5 bags are different flavors all combined into one. I don't know about you but I wouldn't mind having a 5 flavor tea over 1.

(BTW: I'm in school right now so I might not reply that quick.)
Aikido is just two used teabags, irimi and tenkan I wouldn't give Ueshiba credit for inventing any new martial art, but that doesn't make his achievement any less impressive.

As long as we keep building humans with two legs, two arms, and one head, just like we did 10000 years ago, there probably won't be many new inventions in martial arts.
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Old 03-26-2001, 05:45 PM   #18
DiNalt
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Quote:
Chris P. wrote:
Quote:
The One wrote:
Yeah," Aki". I already know what Aiki means. Anyway, about Used Tea Bags.

Who ever said 5 used tea bags isn't better than 1 new one? Those 5 bags are different flavors all combined into one. I don't know about you but I wouldn't mind having a 5 flavor tea over 1.

(BTW: I'm in school right now so I might not reply that quick.)
Aikido is just two used teabags, irimi and tenkan I wouldn't give Ueshiba credit for inventing any new martial art, but that doesn't make his achievement any less impressive.

"An empty can rattles the loudest."
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Old 03-26-2001, 05:55 PM   #19
The One
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In all seriousness... What do you mean???

And how can an empty can rattle?

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-26-2001, 06:13 PM   #20
Chris P.
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Quote:
DiNalt wrote:
"An empty can rattles the loudest." [/b]
"We cut windows and doors to make a room, but it is the inner emptiness that makes the room useful.

We seek to take advantage of what is,
but we also find much use for what is not."

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Old 03-26-2001, 06:57 PM   #21
The One
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Unhappy

I'm really sorry but I still don't see how this relates to my used tea bag thing...

If you please, explain further...

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-27-2001, 03:45 AM   #22
Sam
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I personally think that the problem with ecclectic styles is that the founder (or whoever 'selected' the techniques) may have done so on personal preference and I would always wonder what is was missing in those skills which 'didn't make the cut'.
Just like JKD - everyone teaches a different JKD according to themselves (or so I understand).
However if that preson is qualified enough then probably I would trust them. I guess it is all just down to credentials.

On the subject of tea - Even one teabag often contains a blend of different teas.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Old 03-27-2001, 03:55 AM   #23
andrew
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Quote:
Sam wrote:
On the subject of tea - Even one teabag often contains a blend of different teas.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Typically yes, but not necessarily always.

Also, Tea leaves are much too dry to smoke.

Andrew
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Old 03-27-2001, 06:35 AM   #24
mle
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Tea and Sympathy

The meat of the matter is that I, and other visitors to this forum, do aikido.
If you do not do aikido, then I am not sure what any of us can tell you.
Budo is a fairly universal language when one is more deeply versed in it, but those just learning the alphabet don't yet know that all these different letters can make very similar words.

All arts are derivative of something.
However, snippets of aikido from someone who may not have studied it seriously enough to gain its deep benefits is like judging tea before it is fully steeped. Kinda watery.

Ask your teacher where he studied, under who and for how long. Just conversationally.

I agree that Wing Tsun is a neat addition/complement to aikido. I took it for a little while for that reason.

I now study a system of jujutsu with kempo and weapons integrated so I don't have to "cross train" any more, it's all here for me.
Yes, I still do aikido, have for 8 years or so.

Good luck!

Emily
(weren't we all supposed to be on Real Names here?)


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Old 03-27-2001, 08:16 AM   #25
The One
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That is a good thing about ecclectic styles though. If it's a good combination, everything is there for you. My Karate style also has a little Jujitsu and my Jujitsu style(at least i think it's mostly jujitsu) has a little karate and wing chun. And they both teach a variety of weapons. I hope to be a very well rounded, skilled, and knowledgeable fighter after training in these styles for a long period of time. Though I still do hope my new style is mostly or at least a big part of it is Aikido.

About the Tea Bags... You guys do know I was talking about a quote that was mentioned a couple posts ago referring to ecclectic systems, right? All this smoking tea stuff is getting me confused.

About Wing Chun... How closely related is it to Aikido? It isn't very popular is it? Wouldn't it be hard to find a wing chun school? At least on east side US, where I live.

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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