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Old 02-01-2001, 09:22 AM   #1
nikonl
Join Date: Feb 2001
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is it ok to roll out of a shihonage?
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Old 02-01-2001, 09:48 AM   #2
cbrf4zr2
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I'm new, and I'll probably hear a lot of "oh you're wrong, that's not right" from people who have been doing this longer than I have, but I personally try to roll out of any technique if that's an option. I've rolled out of shihonage before, but only if I'm released "high." If nage leads me almost all the the way to the ground during the finish, I don't think it's a good a idea to try and "make energy" so you can roll out of it. And if he's holding the technique all the way to the ground you probably aren't going to want to roll either. Base it on how much energy you receive back from nage, and if/where he releases you. High release-high energy, go ahead and roll. Low release-low energy (or no release), go ahead and smack the mat.
That's my two cents, but like I said, I'm new, take it for what it's worth.

Ed
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Old 02-01-2001, 09:48 AM   #3
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
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Last person I heard of that tired it almost sprained his wrist... is it possible? Probably... is it safe? Probably not, if the person has intent to take you down.

Nick

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Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 02-01-2001, 10:38 AM   #4
BC
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I was just talking about this with one of my sempai the other night. He asked me if I like to do a back roll out of shihonage when it is a throw and not a pin. I told him that I preferred to a certain ukemi where you go down along one side, across the shoulders, and up the other side (sorry I can't think of any other way to describe it). This allows you to arch your back a little bit into the throw. Plus, its similar to the ukemi you would do if shihonage were executed as a pin. IMHO.


Robert Cronin
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Old 02-01-2001, 10:45 AM   #5
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
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Lightbulb

If you are good at taking long high rollings then you can make a high brakefall into a roll. In shihonage, if you turn your (uke) centre towards nage then you can take a high brakefall (if you want!) or transform it to a high roll. If nage doesn't let go then you get a silent breakfall.

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 02-02-2001, 09:21 AM   #6
nikonl
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then wats the use of shihonage?

if u can roll out of shihonage,then how wats the use of shihonage when u can escape it???(hope an experienced practitioner can reply)
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Old 02-02-2001, 10:03 AM   #7
Nick
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I found going kansetsu on the elbow before turning and cutting has worked well... when I first started, I tried to resist a shihonage and almost got hurt bad... felt bad pressure on the wrist, and my partner stopped it to avoid injury... if done correctly, shihonage can be an effective pin....

Nick

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Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 02-02-2001, 10:54 AM   #8
Magma
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hello everyone,

IMHO, if uke rolls out of my shihonage, then I think that I have done poor technique. I think this way on iriminage, as well, probably because I was taught that the entry angles for nage on the throw are very similar for shiho and irimi (across the shoulders). This sort of energy, if I have captured uke's center, should produce a side breakfall. And the wrapping motion of shiho should completely break uke's hips so that he is arched backward and on the verge of falling anyway.

Conversely, if I am throwing for a full high-fall breakfall I release the "wind" of shiho from tight to the shoulder to a long wind down the arm - nearly a reverse kotegaeshi - allowing uke to turn toward the technique and take the fall.

But if my uke rolls out of the technique then I think that he probably could have stood out of the technique, too, so I concentrate more the next time on completely stealing his balance.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 02-02-2001, 11:50 AM   #9
giriasis
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hmmmm...

If you mean by "rolling out", as escaping the technique intended to pin, then I guess that would be improper.

But an uke can do more of a side roll. By this I mean, as the uke's back is beginning too arch the uke tucks the leg next to the nage under themselves then goes to the ground. I do this all the time and it is a great alternative to taking a breakfall. It is a sort of modified roll. I'm usually stopped from going over because I'm pinned to the ground.

Now, also shihonage can be used a projection as well and in this situation the nage, instead of bringing ukes hand to the ground as in a pin will project the uke away. In this case the uke can do a roll just as easily to get away from the nage.

Of course this is only based on my limited experience of 1 1/2 year of aikido.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 02-02-2001, 05:11 PM   #10
Erik
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2 possibilities that I see.

The first possibility is that you are being released high allowing you to do a forward roll. I've seen this taught as a tool to prepare you to high-fall. If this is what you are talking about then you should probably keep that context in mind when you do it. I would probably remove it from your normal repetoire as most of the rest of the world doesn't do this. Unless your home dojo teaches this style I would try to avoid it.

I'm assuming that you are actually asking about the second possibility and that is rolling out as/before the pin is applied. This is fairly common. I find this happens to me in 2 situations. The first is that I didn't control uke very well. I was going too fast or whatever and didn't do a good job of arching their back and the myriad other things while controlling the ride to the ground and allowing them to get away.

The second way this happens is when going very slow and uke percieves an opportunity that really isn't there. So while nage is moving fairly slow uke suddenly goes into fast mode and thinks they are really smart because they got away. Since I really don't want to take their arm home with me or rattle their brain around in their skull...

I'd argue, at least in my own case, that when someone rolls out, the problem is one of improper execution on my part. They don't roll when it's done right.

To your original question, it works when done right, and rolling is not a good thing because someone might feel the need to stop you from rolling some night.

[Edited by Erik on February 2, 2001 at 10:40pm]
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Old 02-03-2001, 07:10 AM   #11
Kurt
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I would not attempt to roll. I think it's far more important to focus on a good breakfall, then roll sideways and jump to my feet.

Kurt

Never underestimate your oponent!
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Old 02-05-2001, 12:01 PM   #12
giriasis
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Myself, I'd rather roll than take a breakfall. Less damage to ones body. Also, since I'm a beginner (5th kyu) myself, I don't like to throw people any harder than I'm willing to take it myself.

Of course...anyone's answer to the question depends on how shihonage is executed. There are ways that require breakfalls and ways that allows rolls. Neither is wrong. (And, yes, I'm talking about properly executed shihonage). As nage, I'm sensitive to my uke and usually allowing them to go down nice and easy. They don't breakfall and, yes, I'm doing it right. If you disagree, take it up with my sensei.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 02-05-2001, 01:21 PM   #13
akiy
 
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Quote:
Kurt wrote:
I would not attempt to roll. I think it's far more important to focus on a good breakfall, then roll sideways and jump to my feet.
Why?

-- Jun

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Old 02-05-2001, 01:47 PM   #14
cbrf4zr2
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Quote:
Kurt wrote:
I would not attempt to roll. I think it's far more important to focus on a good breakfall, then roll sideways and jump to my feet.
I personally think as an uke, after of course you become comfortable with ukemi, you shouldn't have to, and should not be focusing on a breakfall or a roll, or whatever the case may be. As Sensei said to me just last week after testing when I questioned something I did, he responded with, "You think too much, don't do that." I think that if you try to focus on a certain ukemi, your chances to get hurt increase over that which becomes natural for you. For some, that may be a breakfall, for others a roll, and for some people it may to curl up in the fetal position, suck on their thumb and ask nage not to throw them too hard on iriminage during testing next time. Oops.

Ed
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Old 02-06-2001, 04:03 AM   #15
andrew
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Re: then wats the use of shihonage?

Quote:
nikon wrote:
if u can roll out of shihonage,then how wats the use of shihonage when u can escape it???(hope an experienced practitioner can reply)
It's dynamic practice- you let people fall safely so they don't get injured. Also, shihonage is an awfully complicated technique. There's a lot to learn from it which can be applied in other techniques. Read this: (it's short and interesting..)

http://gargas.biomedicale.univ-paris...ts/ukemi1.html

I've never really rolled backwards out of a technique. I do think that you can breakfall pretty softly, however, which is still something I'm learning to do.
andrew
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Old 02-11-2001, 12:12 PM   #16
Adam Sorkin
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Ai symbol on rolling out of shihonage

Getting out of any technique is not really that tough, provided you know what's coming.

There are lots of kinds of practice. One kind of practice is the kind where you work on form; getting your bodies in the proper position at the right time. Another is the kind where you try to resist or escape one another for the purpose of finding flaws in technique. This type of practice is trickier, and should not be attempted by beginners. Why? Because this leads them astray in two ways;

1. They begin to think that if one can resist/escape, the other person's technique was somehow lacking, and they have "won".

2. Beginners need to be spending time on how to move WITH their partner. This means going into the shihonage WITH him. Stretch. Get thrown.

For the future: it is by getting comfortable going IN to the shihonage that we learn how to get OUT of it. There is plenty of time to resist and screw around later on.

You may be naturally rolling out because stiff shoulder joints, or because he is not extending you far enough on the way in. Failure of the technique means you and your partner both need to do SOMETHING. Find out WHY you feel like taking a fall would be a lie. Make the technique WORK together first, before you can find out how it doesn't work.

Shut up and practice.
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Old 02-11-2001, 11:25 PM   #17
wildaikido
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nikon
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February 3, 2001 12:21am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then wats the use of shihonage?
if u can roll out of shihonage,then how wats the use of shihonage when u can escape it???(hope an experienced practitioner can reply)


The point of shihonage is it's a nage a throw, so it is good for more than one attacker and other things, if you don't want your uke to get up then use a pin and the whole point of pinning in aikido is to pin stomach down (I know you can pin uke on his back I do jujutsu as well and you can pin him any way you want).

Graham Wild
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Old 02-12-2001, 04:20 AM   #18
petra
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IMHO, after doing almost 3 hours of shihonaga during a seminar last saterday, it is nage who determines if uke can/may roll out of the technique. If nage releases uke in time (provided there is enough space), uke can roll backwards and stand on his feet. However, if nage holds uke in a firm grip and brings uke down.....don't even think about rolling, it is not good for your wrists. Call me a coward but I try to keep myself intact while learning a great deal at once and even with that precausion, my wrists still feel sore today.

Petra

I haven't failed, I have found 10.000 ways that won't work.
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Old 02-12-2001, 07:48 AM   #19
ian
 
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I would agree with the previous post. Shiho-nage can be applied in various ways. You can roll out of any technique such as shiho-nage, ikkyo, kote-gaeshi if nage gives you the opportunity. This is not a bad thing and us useful in randori to make it more flowing and to get better throws. However it is up to Nage whether you can roll out of it or not. Personally I like to always start doing proper pins with applications. Then once both of you are warmed up a bi, it is quite nice for uke doing rolls out of shihonage. However mindfulness is always important - I know someone who did a shihonage on an attacker, pinned them down, and then let them back up with the consequence that they just attacked them again.

Ian
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Old 03-10-2001, 09:37 AM   #20
paul spawforth
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Wink rolling out of shihonage

It is probably possible to roll out of shihonage but it sounds a bit risky, the point of shihonage (as with most technique) is to not allow your opponent to escape, thus if you try to turn and roll and the person doing shihonage on you is really applying it proeprly you could do yourself a hell of a lot of damage, personally i just backwards breakfall out of it.

Stay safe!

Paul
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Old 03-20-2001, 12:39 AM   #21
jimvance
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Quote:
cbrf4zr2 wrote:


I personally think as an uke, after of course you become comfortable with ukemi, you shouldn't have to, and should not be focusing on a breakfall or a roll, or whatever the case may be. As Sensei said to me just last week after testing when I questioned something I did, he responded with, "You think too much, don't do that." I think that if you try to focus on a certain ukemi, your chances to get hurt increase over that which becomes natural for you. For some, that may be a breakfall, for others a roll, and for some people it may to curl up in the fetal position....

Ed
I would have to agree. Taking good ukemi is not about being creative, or trying to figure out what is happening and "watching" while we are supposed to be participating. One of my sensei points that out to me that all the time. I think that one of the problems is we become comfortable with ukemi at some point and then fixate there. We don't want to go into the dark, scary country of "I-am-not-in-control" ukemi. So as far as taking ukemi for shihonage, keep the good posture and relaxed energy we should have gained through repetition and start letting go of "what should I do next?". Just see if you can fit to what the tori (nage) is doing so much that it is like "trying to throw a cloud" as my Sensei says. Maybe you'll get so good at it that they'll forget they've got ahold of you and you can do shihonage to THEM!

Jim Vance
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Old 03-24-2001, 03:07 PM   #22
j0nharris
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rolling out of shihonage

In our dojo the person who rolls out of shihonage inevitably meets a very direct iriminage, or if tori is feeling nice, sankyo or kotagaeshi.
Knowing how to roll out of technique is good, but knowing the potentiall results is also good.

Happy training,
-jon

jon harris

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Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 04-20-2001, 11:15 PM   #23
aikijames
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i haven't had much problem with shihonage if you get a good initial balance break and have a quick tenkan then it should work fine.

in our dojo we practice shihonage as the counter for shihonage. you could go round and round with shihonages and the faster person usally wins.

we counter it by grabbing their wrist closest to the hand they are grabbing after the initial balance break when they tenkan and when you roll out. quickly roll the other way and you should have them comprimised.

ohh and if their spine is really compressed they won't be able to roll any where but the to the mat. my sensi say before you throw take a moment just to make sure you have them really comprimised(good balance break compressed spine). and you actually should be able to keep shihonage standing for a moment if the spine is really compressed



James

Last edited by aikijames : 04-20-2001 at 11:18 PM.
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