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Old 12-16-2000, 08:44 PM   #1
Gerardo A Torres
Dojo: Aikido West
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 23
United_States
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Being punctual to class is something that I always strive for. I find it very important to take part in the initial formal bow, which I think sets the tone for the whole practice.

Whenever I'm late --unless I sincerely could not avoid it— I rather sit and watch the class instead of getting late on the mat.

Since everybody has different lifestyles --some more complicated that others—it would be inconsiderate to impose perfect punctuality. This goes against the believe that practicing is what's important.

Do you think everybody is truly, sincerely making their best to make it to class on time? Or some people just don't think is a big deal being a few minutes late?
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Old 12-16-2000, 09:02 PM   #2
DiNalt
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 82
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Quote:
gerardo wrote:

Do you think everybody is truly, sincerely making their best to make it to class on time? Or some people just don't think is a big deal being a few minutes late?
Why exactly do you ask this question ?
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Old 12-16-2000, 10:51 PM   #3
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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We live in the Bay Area. It is not possible to always be on time with 8 million cars on the road. I drive a minimum of an hour to any dojo that I'm a regular at and even giving myself 1-1/2 hours, I don't always make it. Hell, I've spent 30 minutes looking for parking.

I believe that most schools will understand this and work with it. Don't waste a class just because of a 3 car pile up.

<rant>
Now, the anal retentive part, the same part that has me at a computer on a Saturday night, thinks being late sucks. Drives me nuts. Hate it in myself and others. And I generally agree with you in that some people are always late. It's a character flaw in my opinion.
</rant>

[Edited by Erik on December 16, 2000 at 11:23pm]
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Old 12-16-2000, 11:27 PM   #4
DiNalt
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Erik wrote:

Drives me nuts. Hate it in myself and others. And I generally agree with you in that some people are always late. It's a character flaw in my opinion.
I try not to judge others and just do what I came there for - ... muscle my way through beginners and smaller people, and whine when it doesnt work on senior students and bigger people
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Old 12-17-2000, 12:31 AM   #5
crystalwizard
Dojo: Aikido of Dallas
Location: Dallas
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 123
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Quote:
gerardo wrote:

Do you think everybody is truly, sincerely making their best to make it to class on time? Or some people just don't think is a big deal being a few minutes late?
I think regardless of the subject you're taking, if you're actualy interested in it you're going to do your best not to miss any of it.

I also think that not everyone studying a subjet is there cause they really want to be or there as more than a causual interest/curiosity. Those folks I think probalby dont make as sincer an effort not to miss out on anything.

Why?

____________
Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-17-2000, 03:23 AM   #6
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Quote:
DiNalt wrote:
I try not to judge others and just do what I came there for - ... muscle my way through beginners and smaller people, and whine when it doesnt work on senior students and bigger people
Actually, I go to class to whine about those who are late.
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Old 12-17-2000, 02:28 PM   #7
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 561
United_States
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Depends on how late you are, and it varies from dojo to dojo... if you're like 5 or 10 min late, no need to miss whole keiko, if you show up during warmups sit in seiza at the edge of the mat and wait to be recognized. Of course, opinions will vary.

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 12-18-2000, 10:18 AM   #8
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
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I think if you are late by 10 to 15 minutes, You should have to apologize to the
whole class for being so. If one is any more late than that, Go home and come
back tomorrow. I am a hard ass about being late, but that's just me.
-Tomu

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 12-18-2000, 10:35 AM   #9
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 432
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I can't stand being late for anything, and I especially hate being late for aikido class. Actually, I've only been late for one class, and that was because our Dojo Cho asked me and another student to fix something on the roof of the dojo. So even though I knew it was OK to be late for that class, it still bothered me. For other students who are late to class, I'm rather indifferent, and somewhat surprised at the ones who are consistently late (there are a few of these). I usually just assume people have valid reasons for being late and leave it at that. However, every once in a while one of our instructors will ignore a late student who is waiting to bow in, thus preventing them from joining class for a while and sending them a not-so-subtle message about their tardiness.

Robert Cronin
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Old 12-18-2000, 12:53 PM   #10
crystalwizard
Dojo: Aikido of Dallas
Location: Dallas
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 123
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Quote:
Aikidoka2000 wrote:
I think if you are late by 10 to 15 minutes, You should have to apologize to the
whole class for being so. If one is any more late than that, Go home and come
back tomorrow. I am a hard ass about being late, but that's just me.
-Tomu
May you never end up in a situation where you need understanding in that case.

____________
Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-18-2000, 01:56 PM   #11
Nick
Dojo: Aikido of Greater Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 561
United_States
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getting dressed may cause a problem for late budoka... putting on a dogi and hakama can take 3 to 10 minutes, which will only make you more late. If you're ready to go during warmups, I don't see a problem with working through the waza.

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 12-18-2000, 04:01 PM   #12
Kristina Morris
Dojo: Kannagara Jinja
Location: Granite Falls, WA.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 29
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No matter what the reasons given for being late to class, you are still late. Why? Showing up on time is discipline and martial arts is a discipline - and when the most basic, entry-level, self-discipline requirement is not met, it sets the stage for other areas of errosion.

I understand traffic problems, illness etc...and arrangements can be made with the instructor if it's going to happen on a frequent basis.
I also agree that attending some part of class is better than no class. But, I just think a very sincere effort should be made. After all, a dojo doesn't really have to accept you as a student. It is a priviledge.

Kristina
been there/done that


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Old 12-19-2000, 02:34 AM   #13
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Just an observation I made tonight. I was visiting a dojo and the first class started at 5:00. The dojo is in commute hell. We started with 4 people and ended with 8. The second class (6:00) had 2 or 3 stragglers if I counted correctly.

Everyone just trained which has been my general experience here in the Bay Area. Too many people and all of them have too many cars.
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Old 12-19-2000, 08:36 AM   #14
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
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Quote:
crystalwizard wrote:
Quote:
Aikidoka2000 wrote:
I think if you are late by 10 to 15 minutes, You should have to apologize to the
whole class for being so. If one is any more late than that, Go home and come
back tomorrow. I am a hard ass about being late, but that's just me.
-Tomu
May you never end up in a situation where you need understanding in that case.
I have been there before. That is one of the reasons I dislike it so much.
But there discipline must be kept in order to maintain effective control of the class.
If anyone can just saunter in whenever they feel like it, then the scheduling and
therefor the rhythm of the class is broken. Being sent home a few times will send a
clear message to the student. Of course the are exceptions, however I have
found that the majority of the time it is just poor planning or an non serious
mindset of the student.
-Tomu

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 12-19-2000, 09:27 AM   #15
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 432
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I don't understand how the rhythm of the class is broken by a late student. In our dojo, the late student sits in seiza out of the way of the other students on the mat until given permission to bow in by the instructor. I think the bigger issue of being late is that it could be construed by the instructor as the late student showing a lack of respect for the instructor or a lack of enthusiasm for attending class (notwithstanding the reason for the tardiness, valid or not). IMHO

Robert Cronin
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Old 12-19-2000, 06:33 PM   #16
Catherine
Dojo: IAA headquarters
Location: Texas
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 11
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Sosa Sensei beleives that tardiness is a character aspect. Therefore, at my dojo, people who are late to class without a valid reason are severely frowned upon. I have noticed that the people who are consistently late to class also seem to be the people that have a hard time understanding the techniques, while the people who come thirty minutes early and spend their time warming up and helping new students settle in generally have a better understanding of what they are doing. This applies to everything from the lowest rank to 1st kyu, as I have never ever seen a blackbelt late for class. (this is my personal experience)

I can see how the rythm of the class can be broken by someone being late. Hearing the door opening and closing and seeing someone pausing at the edge of the mat with an excuse ready on their lips is just kind of sad. Most of the time, the excuses are something like "I tried o get here on time, but I forgot." Sheesh. Most of the time it is people who have been taking at this same time for several years.

Catherine
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Old 12-19-2000, 07:40 PM   #17
Chris Li
 
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,952
United_States
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Quote:
If anyone can just saunter in whenever they feel like it, then the scheduling and
therefor the rhythm of the class is broken. Being sent home a few times will send a
clear message to the student. Of course the are exceptions, however I have
found that the majority of the time it is just poor planning or an non serious
mindset of the student.
-Tomu
Sent home? I don't think that I'd feel too comfortable practicing at a dojo where they treated me like an eight year old.

Best,

Chris
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Old 12-20-2000, 02:17 AM   #18
DiNalt
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Catherine wrote:

I can see how the rythm of the class can be broken by someone being late. Hearing the door opening and closing and seeing someone pausing at the edge of the mat with an excuse ready on their lips is just kind of sad. Most of the time, the excuses are something like "I tried o get here on time, but I forgot." Sheesh. Most of the time it is people who have been taking at this same time for several years.

Catherine
I don't know what dojo you train in, but I guess I just got lucky.

No one in this dojo (including the instructors) is ever judgmental or negative toward anyone, including those that are late.

Have a nice day
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Old 12-20-2000, 12:47 PM   #19
PRapoza
Dojo: Cape Cod Aikido Kenkyukai 541 Thomas Landers Rd., East Falmouth
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 30
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I don't believe you can impose disciple on people. My belief is that disciple, like aikido, is an inner journey. As an individual you are either working on being disciplined, to whatever degree, or not. I also agree that when people are late to class it is disruptive. When I have a student that is habitually late I or one of the dia-sempai speak with them about it. We want people to feel welcome and don't believe in shaming or scapegoating people. However we do hold people accountable. We stress to them the importance of being early for class and helping clean the dojo etc... We try and provide an environment where people feel safe to explore their inner dimensions, the path of aiki. It is not always easy but quite rewarding. It is not my belief that you can teach aikido but only show your feeling and lead them to it. I personally have a "thing" about being late. I can't stand when others are late or to be late myself but this is my problem. In any case people always either start showing up early or stop showing up after a few conversations on the matter.

Paul
Cape Cod Aikido Kenkyukai
http://www.aikidokenkyukai.org/usa/ma/ma.index.html
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Old 12-27-2000, 01:18 PM   #20
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
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Indeed accountability is the mainstay of discipline.
One should always remember that Aikido is also designed a vehicle for personal
transformation, striving to better one's understanding of self and actions. Creating
value in your life means taking responsibility for your actions. A Sensei should not
judge the student for mistakes, but offer correction and keep the student
accountable for his actions and the standards of the dojo. If that means that
habitual tardiness means being sent home, then so be it. That is accountability.
Being habitually late or having a casual thinking about such issues is as
disrespectful to yourself and others, as it is incredibly selfish.
-Tomu

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 12-27-2000, 06:52 PM   #21
Chris Li
 
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,952
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Quote:
Aikidoka2000 wrote:
Indeed accountability is the mainstay of discipline.
One should always remember that Aikido is also designed a vehicle for personal
transformation, striving to better one's understanding of self and actions. Creating
value in your life means taking responsibility for your actions. A Sensei should not
judge the student for mistakes, but offer correction and keep the student
accountable for his actions and the standards of the dojo. If that means that
habitual tardiness means being sent home, then so be it. That is accountability.
Being habitually late or having a casual thinking about such issues is as
disrespectful to yourself and others, as it is incredibly selfish.
-Tomu
Respect runs both ways. I'm an adult, and I expect to be treated as one without having to defend my actions under the threat of being "sent home" like an 8 year old.

Best,

Chris
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Old 12-28-2000, 09:41 AM   #22
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
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Chris,
As long as you think of it in that context, then you will have difficulty seeing what
the real issue is. Think about your statement for a moment. Note the the issue was
all about you. You seem that you don't want to be treated like an 8 year old. Yet
no one mentioned that. Does keeping people accountable seem juvenile or
belittling to you? You may see this as an issue of control, but it is not. It is an
issue to help you grow. Sometimes it is hard to see a spot on our own nose. We
need one another to tell us of these issues we each have. No one is exempt. Do
you see it as a challenge to your ego? ( I am not trying to attack you here, just
expressing a view)
Let us take this scenario:
1. Student shows up to class 15 minutes late twice a week or more.
2. Sensei asks student to please notice the time.
3. Student says "sorry" or "yes, Sensei I will." but still is habitually late.
4. So the issue of disrupting the class is a real one, but marginal in the long run, as
the root issue is not about them so much as the student with the problem. What is
going on in that student's life that he/she is late all the time? It is a sure bet that
such an issue is presenting itself in other aspects of their life.
5. It would be the easy path to let the student "off the hook" and not bother with
his issue. The hard path of compassion is to keep the student accountable for
his/her actions in the hope that the will look at the issue internally, and as you may
know, the first step in growth, is to realize where we are in need of it.
Perhaps you feel as if no one has the right to keep you accountable. If so, that
means that you are perfect and not in need of growth, yes? I think it would be
safe to assume that that statement is false for each and every one of us.
The reality of your statement , (please muse on it for your own benefit) is one of
your ego.
Learn from everyone.
Never assume you have mastered anything.
Realize that in truth, the power from one's ego is your worst enemy.
and lastly, take notes from any 8 year old you meet. You may find their
innocence and willingness to grow quite amazing, refreshing and nourishing
In friendship,
Tomu


-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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Old 12-28-2000, 10:42 AM   #23
Richard Harnack
Dojo: Aikido Institute of Mid-America
Location: Maplewood, Missouri
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 137
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Do symbol Tardiness

In my dojo the starting times are clearly stated and posted. My assumption is that most students will arrive in plenty of time to be on the mat at the proper starting time.

I remember Kobayashi, Sensei, frowning at me on occasion, not because I arrived after the start of class, but because I arrived with barely enough time to get changed into my dogi and on the mat. He felt that if you were rushed, even if you were on time, your mind was not in the proper frame.

Even today, I find myself rushing needlessly at times. This is my major character flaw (although I am certain my wife might think of others) in relation to time.

As an instructor, I do not comment on late arriving students. I start class on time and end on time, that is part of my responsibility. I do require that all late arriving students complete a full set of warm-ups and Aiki Taiso before I will allow them to train.

Timeliness in training begins by leaving early, allowing for traffic, and arriving far enough in advance of class that one can sit a slow down from the frantic pace of the day.

Just a different perspective.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 12-28-2000, 11:44 AM   #24
qwerty
Dojo: Aikikai of Asheville
Location: Asheville, NC
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 2
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Wink

Thank goodness that mine is only 7 minutes away. No traffic during my drive through the country. Am I this fortunate?

Harmony is becoming one with the bed without the noise.
Mike McConnell
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Old 12-28-2000, 12:04 PM   #25
Aikidoka2000
Dojo: SEIDOKAN
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 59
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Indeed you are fortunate!
I also share such fortune. (My dojo is roughly 500 feet from my home
-Tomu

-When two blades cross points,
There's no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like the lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a person has inside of them
A heaven soaring spirit.
- Tozan Ryokan
4th verse on the 5 ranks
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