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Old 12-16-2000, 08:00 PM   #1
tedehara
 
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Dojo: Evanston Ki-Aikido
Location: Evanston IL
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Quote:
from "Angry White Pajamas" by Robert Twigger pg.94

Kancho (Kancho Sensei - Refers to Gozo Shioda, Yoshinkan founder) claimed that one of his most significant insights came while watching a goldfish swim through a group of fish coming towards it. The goldfish never retreated, relying instead on its ability to move from side to side but always keeping forward momentum. That is why there are no backwards steps in aikido....
I was surprised that ...there are no backwards steps in aikido. since the style I practice has a specific exercise for moving backwards. Still, I recall seeing a style that its practioners didn't seem to move backwards.

Does your style use only forward motion, or does it have exercises and ways to step backwards?

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 12-16-2000, 08:27 PM   #2
Erik
Location: Bay Area
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Quote:
tedehara wrote:
I was surprised that ...there are no backwards steps in aikido. since the style I practice has a specific exercise for moving backwards. Still, I recall seeing a style that its practioners didn't seem to move backwards.

Does your style use only forward motion, or does it have exercises and ways to step backwards?
When I started I was taught tenchi (I don't know the literal translation here) movements. This was later simplified to "stepping back" because I don't think tenchi translates this way. Anyways, I was definitely taught backwards movement, although not a lot of it, and I think it can definitely get you in trouble.
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Old 12-18-2000, 07:49 AM   #3
Guest5678
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Good Question!

When I first learned to box I was taught to never backup in a straight line as this leads to openings around the sides for hooks and gives the opponent momentum moving toward you. Not a good thing at all!

In some "situations" though, I've found that a well timed and protected retreat can be very useful in changing an attackers timing and distance, causing them to over extend. This is a good thing!

Usually just a half step back, then move in another direction. I am just now becoming aware of the many advantages in moving within the circle. Very cool concept....... If you really want to see a true technician though, either catch a re-run of, or watch the next Roy Jones Jr. fight. He really understands the concept of body movment and placement. Best demo of Aiki outside of Aikido I've ever seen.

All I really know is I'll move any direction necessary to avoid getting clocked!

Dan P. - Mongo

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Old 12-18-2000, 08:26 AM   #4
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
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Quote:
Erik wrote:
Quote:
tedehara wrote:
I was surprised that ...there are no backwards steps in aikido. since the style I practice has a specific exercise for moving backwards. Still, I recall seeing a style that its practioners didn't seem to move backwards.

Does your style use only forward motion, or does it have exercises and ways to step backwards?
When I started I was taught tenchi (I don't know the literal translation here) movements. This was later simplified to "stepping back" because I don't think tenchi translates this way. Anyways, I was definitely taught backwards movement, although not a lot of it, and I think it can definitely get you in trouble.
Tenchi means "ground-sky." I can't remember which syllable is which.
There are obviously reverse steps in aikido to maintain correct distancing, particularly in aikiken/aikijo, but during an actual technique you don't step back. You enter or you tenkan (OK, a little too brief here). You can enter by moving a foot back but it's not really a backards step. (You can see an example of this in the Seven Samurai clip on aikidofaq). You'll notice in a randori that Tore always advances towards a particular Uke rather than wait for one to attack. Often attacks can be viewed as just an opening for a technique, that's why there's emphasis on drawing attacks.

And, of course, a long life eating mush is best.
andrew
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Old 12-18-2000, 09:56 AM   #5
Chuck Clark
 
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I think all aiki movement is "irimi", even when you're moving backwards.


Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 12-18-2000, 10:46 AM   #6
ScottyC
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
I think all aiki movement is "irimi", even when you're moving backwards.
Amen, Chuck Sensei.

That's a mantra I've heard zillions of times in the dojo.

The original quote starting this thread was from Twigger's book Angry White Pyjamas, which was based on his experiences in the Yoshinkan senshusei course.

One of the most pervasive concepts taught in Yoshinkan is that everything is always forward.

Superficially, I can only think of one technique in the standard Yoshinkan basic techniques that reqires a step backwards. Even then, your intent, your focus, and your energy is directed forward. Of course, this is all easier to show than to tell...

Besides, going backwards is simply going forward in a different direction.





Scott Crawford
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Old 12-18-2000, 10:55 AM   #7
BC
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In our dojo, we call the back step "tenshin." It's not a step straight backwards, but backwards at an angle to get off the line of the attack and to take uke's balance before moving to another angle to complete the technique.

Robert Cronin
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Old 01-04-2001, 02:56 PM   #8
MarcRaeymaekers
Dojo: Ecole de Budo Kobudo Traditionnel
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In our Dojo also, the only "back" step is the "tenshin" step. Two types of stepping are Tsugi-ashi and Ayumi-ashi. When you enter in Irimi, your first step is always in Tsugi-ashi; and when you enter in tenkan, our first step is done in Ayumi-ashi.
Irimi and Tenkan are the polarization ofthe defense. Irimi is Yang and Tenkan is Yin.
Ura and Omote are the polarization of the technique. Omote is Yang and Ura is Yin.
You can thus combine the two polarities to create four movements. Yang- Yang, Yin-Yin, Yang-Yin and Yin-Yang. In techniques, it means Irimi-Omote, Tenkan-Ura, Irimi-Ura and Tenkan-Omote. When you can add the Uchi and Soto polarity, you have 3 polarity. Thus you can create 8 movements now. (Uchi is Yang and Soto is Yin).
NB : the referencial point of Yin-Yang, in our Dojo, is the physic. Follow the teachng of G.Ohsawa (his real name Nyoichi Sakurasawa). Unlike the metaphysical point of vue as in Acupuncture or Taoism.
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Old 01-09-2001, 08:21 AM   #9
aarjan
Dojo: Aikidostichting "Musubi" De Bollenstreek
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Quote:
ScottyC wrote:
Besides, going backwards is simply going forward in a different direction.
My teacher always reminds us to think forward when we move backward. Try both and you will find out that it's easier to walk backwards when you think forward.

Just my 2 cents..

Aarjan
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Old 01-18-2001, 04:58 AM   #10
darin
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
tedehara wrote:
Quote:
from "Angry White Pajamas" by Robert Twigger pg.94

Kancho (Kancho Sensei - Refers to Gozo Shioda, Yoshinkan founder) claimed that one of his most significant insights came while watching a goldfish swim through a group of fish coming towards it. The goldfish never retreated, relying instead on its ability to move from side to side but always keeping forward momentum. That is why there are no backwards steps in aikido....
I was surprised that ...there are no backwards steps in aikido. since the style I practice has a specific exercise for moving backwards. Still, I recall seeing a style that its practioners didn't seem to move backwards.

Does your style use only forward motion, or does it have exercises and ways to step backwards?
My style has heavy influence on judo and karate so there are naturally backward steps. I doubt that aikido has no backward stepping. You should never limit your range of movement.

I think what Shioda was implying was the way aikidoka can manouver around opponents. If you every watch him do tatsunin randori (against 10 people) you will see him ducking, weaving, spinning and stepping back.

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Old 01-22-2001, 11:05 PM   #11
jaemin
Dojo: Korea Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Well.. I think you don't have to care for such things. If you need to do backward steps, just do it.

If the attacker is fast, you can't do 'entering' irimi. Then you should do 'backward' irimi to reduce and absorb the attacker's power. (a little bit side steps may be needed too.. a little bit..)

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Old 02-08-2001, 05:23 AM   #12
Kurt
Dojo: Shizendo Aikido of Derby
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The way I learned was that if an attack is pushing, then pull (step backwards) and if an attack is pulling, then push (enter in).

When stepping backwards, it's done with only one foot stepping back and off the line. The idea is to continue the momentum of the strike or push, in order to pull nage beyond his point of balance. Then, reverse the direction smoothly and circularly.

I thought that this was the way of Aikido and I'm supprised to read that so many styles do not step backwards.

Kurt

Never underestimate your oponent!
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Old 02-08-2001, 07:54 AM   #13
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
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Quote:
Kurt wrote:
The way I learned was that if an attack is pushing, then pull (step backwards) and if an attack is pulling, then push (enter in).


I thought that this was the way of Aikido and I'm supprised to read that so many styles do not step backwards.
That's judo.
Entering is not the same as pushing. Moving a foot back is not the same as pulling. In aikido you're generally trying to get to their side.
It's one of the main technical differences between the two.
andrew
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