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Old 11-30-2000, 08:38 PM   #1
Suru
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I've found in my aikido training that it is not an effective martial art to counter real life threats. Let's face it, there's no way to predict how an opponent will attack. All this "sensing ki in your opponent" is a load of b.s. The enemy is not going to attack shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, mune tsuki, kata dori, katate dori, ryote dori, or kosa dori. Your enemy is going to attack in a quick, unpredictable manner which probably doesn't set the aikidoka up for any functional counters. Even if the aikidoka manages to lock the opponent in nikyo, sankyo, or kote gaeshi, the enemy will simply take the pain of countering the technique, not merely submiss. Fists will be flailing, elbows flying, and shoes kicking.

Having this outlook on the lack of combat effectiveness of aikido, I practice the art for its positive spiritual nature, the friends, the peaceful yet strong philosophy, and the sheer fun of countering idealized attacks with locks, pins, and throws. Besides, the fact of the matter is, I will never be involved in a dangerous physical confrontation (as long as I keep my wife happy).

---Drew

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Old 11-30-2000, 11:05 PM   #2
Axiom
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I don't think that aikido is exactly meant for say, combat- ie, fighting between two trained individual intent on really hurting each other. But I study aikido not to enter into battles- I want to be able to defend myself against some kid at school w/o beating the crap out of him, or some weirdo who wants to hit me for the hell of it, or an out of control friend. Think about it- in what situations do you actually have to fight all out against a sober opponent who is trying to do serious harm to you? If you respond with an example of being, say, mugged, then take into account the fact that almost all muggers use a weapon- either a gun or a knife. Nobody goes up to you weaponless and expect you to, out of some strange generosity, give them your wallet and valuables. Most martial artists I've spoken with, when given such a scenario say, "Give them your wallet, and hope they don't attack you." The panopticon of our justice system usually makes it so that they won't kill you out of fear of jail, etc.

What I'm worried about is not being mugged- if I were, I would carry a knife or a gun and study how to use them. I'm worried about hurting people that doesn't deserve to be injured. And I think that aikido does teach your that, especially if you continue to take it for long enough. And techniques can be altered to be dangerous if the situation calls for it- many kokyu nages can be turned into breaks, most of the wrist techniques as well(in JJ, ikkyo is finished as a break), koshi nages can hurt like a bitch on concrete if the thrower wants to injure you, etc. I think that if you want to learn more combative applications, take judo(taught as SD, not a sport), Kali, etc. And remember that even O' Sensei, the Gracies, Bruce Lee all couldn't dodge bullets.

And I agree with you- I do aikido b/c its fun, not because I want to fight people.

Alex Magidow

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An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
-- Gandhi
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Old 12-01-2000, 12:21 AM   #3
akiy
 
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Quote:
Suru wrote:
I've found in my aikido training that it is not an effective martial art to counter real life threats.
As someone I know has said, "Aikido works. Your aikido may not work. Please don't confuse the two."

-- Jun

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Old 12-01-2000, 12:59 AM   #4
crystalwizard
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didn't we just have this discussion in the other forum?


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Old 12-01-2000, 02:21 AM   #5
SeiWhat?!?
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quote:
"All this "sensing ki in your opponent" is a load of b.s."

Actually, it may not be that big of a load. If you can, try this:

Form a circle and place a blindfolded person in the center (nage). Give everyone else (uke) a bokken or jo (hand works too, but I find it easier to send my ki out with a weapon.) Have one uke point his bokken, sending out lots of ki of course, at the nage and all the others focus somewhere else. The point is to see if nage can sense where the "attack" is coming from.

We've tried it, and the results spooked us a bit. Please let me know on your results should any of you try this. TIA.

Best advise I've ever received:
"Don't just stand there, do SOMETHING! The fact that you may have failed doesn't matter, it's HOW you failed. Go down swingin'."

Scott Tanaka
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Old 12-01-2000, 07:31 AM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
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Effectiveness?

Quote:
Suru wrote:
I've found in my aikido training that it is not an effective martial art to counter real life threats. Let's face it, there's no way to predict how an opponent will attack. All this "sensing ki in your opponent" is a load of b.s. The enemy is not going to attack shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, mune tsuki, kata dori, katate dori, ryote dori, or kosa dori. Your enemy is going to attack in a quick, unpredictable manner which probably doesn't set the aikidoka up for any functional counters. Even if the aikidoka manages to lock the opponent in nikyo, sankyo, or kote gaeshi, the enemy will simply take the pain of countering the technique, not merely submiss. Fists will be flailing, elbows flying, and shoes kicking.

Having this outlook on the lack of combat effectiveness of aikido, I practice the art for its positive spiritual nature, the friends, the peaceful yet strong philosophy, and the sheer fun of countering idealized attacks with locks, pins, and throws. Besides, the fact of the matter is, I will never be involved in a dangerous physical confrontation (as long as I keep my wife happy).

---Drew

This posting shows a complete misunderstanding of what Aikido is as a martial art. Based on the understanding level of you would be correct that your Aikido wouldn't be combat effective and that it wouldn't work.

Aikido like this is simply a form of dance and frankly I can't see why anyone would bother. Contact Improvisation is a better form of Aiki dance than Aikido is.

Of course your enemy won't attack with a formalized attack as we practice in our basics. But no matter what style of fighting he will come at you with impact techniques that are either linear, come from off the line, involve falling energy, or utilize grabbing. The basics of Aikido practice prepare you to understand how that works but it does not specifically prepare you to apply these principles. Application requires a different type of practice.

When you say that you do not know how an attacker is going to attack you are correct. That's why in classical style Aikido the defender didn't wait for the attack but initiated. The whole basis of Aikido is about moving to the center; in fighting it involves striking the center. Technique is created by the interaction between the two opponents at the instant they come together. I can effect how my opponent moves using my own movement, that starts to create the technique that will occur. It is the use of atemi that creates the opportunity to apply a technique such as a lock or throw. You don't decide before hand what technique you are going to do.

Yes it is true that in combat you are not going to see locking techniques used the same way that we do them in the dojo. In the dojo we are trying quite hard not to hurt our partner. When these techniques are applied in a more combat oriented manner they are designed to create dysfunction not get someone to submit. This is not the UFC in which a lock is designed to create enough pain to get an opponent to tap out. In combat these locks are designed as an attack on a joint but more importantly, as a way to unbalance the attacker presenting an opportunity for additional atemi. Nicky would only be applied after an atemi had created the opportunity. When the nikkyo breaks the balance of the attacker it is to bring him down right into a rising knee strike to the head.

Aikido is an art that people have used for fighting. Many of the interviews with the Sensei's from the prewar era that Stan Pranin conducted for Aikido Journal talk about their experiences fighting. The fact that Aikido has degenerated and is often practiced and even taught by people who have had no experience with practicing applied technique isn't the fault of the art.

A while back I had some friends bring a guest to the dojo. He was a karate student whose teacher had told him not to bother about Aikido because "that stuff doesn't work". When he left the dojo he was asking about where he might train in his own town. I don't think he had much trouble seeing what would work.

Here I have been speaking on the mechanical side of things. When you say that the Ki stuff is just BS you exhibit a lack of understanding that comes from inexperience. It isn't just Aikido that talks about these issues. Every Asian martial art has these elements at the highest level of practice. It is true that you can't get to that kind of level in five, ten or fifteen years of practice. But there are innumerable accounts of people who have experienced precisely that type of interaction throughout the history of martial encounter.


[Edited by George S. Ledyard on December 1, 2000 at 07:37am]

George S. Ledyard
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Old 12-01-2000, 07:43 AM   #7
joeysola
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Suru, I agree with you. I have never trained in Aikido, but I was interested in finding out what it was all about and that is why I am here. I have a background in wrestling and boxing, and have recently taken up Jeet Kune Do and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. The school I am at does both. I have spared against people with Aikido backgrounds and their way of counter simple punches does not work at all and they get tagged big time over and over, not to mention that they can never seem to keep their hands up. Another problem I have seen is that there is no real matwork involved. There are thousands of guys out there who wrestled in high school and Aikido practitiors probably can get out of the most simple wrestling or Judo pins. I would like to pose a question now. Why can't someone train in a more practical martial art and still adhere to the principles of Aikido. Good boxing skills and grappling skills will allow you to avoid punches and take someone down without hurting them?
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Old 12-01-2000, 09:07 AM   #8
akiy
 
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Hi Joeysola,

Can you please be sure to sign your real name with your posts? Thank you.

-- Jun

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Old 12-01-2000, 09:10 AM   #9
crystalwizard
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Joey you continue to say you're intersted yet all you continue to do is try to prove what you are working on works and aikido doesnt'. If you are really interested show it. go to an aikido dojo. join it. learn the techniques and practice them for a few years..diligently and not with the idea of proving your other styles are better or worse but with the idea of actualy learning them. If you're not interested enough after all this discussion, then I dont see how you are actualy interested in doing more than just talking. Aikido does work, providing you actualy want it to and aren't just practicing it for form or a modified version of ballet and provided you dont think you're going to have ingrained reflexes in a couple months time. After a while, if you are serious about learning it and you have worked long enough to start developing those reflexes you'll start to develop a deep enough understanding to block those things you are so sure can't be blocked...or get out of the way of them...or counter them in some manner that is aikido...but you wont get there through just talking.

Question is do you actualy want to be there or not?

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Kelly Christiansen

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Old 12-01-2000, 09:14 AM   #10
Kevin73
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There are some arts out there like that. The martial art I study, for example, has alot of things that someone will recognize as "Aikido". It's like someone else has said, you will find the same techniques in other martial arts as well.

Our style is primarily a striking style and uses joint locks when they present themself to accentuate and put down the opponent. We do not lock to just hold our opponent there. We also teach levels of response. That is, knowing how to use the same technique on a drunken friend that gets ticked off, up to someone who seriously wants to injure you.

It also teaches mental fighting strategies, for example. In the form of Wansu, physically it teaches how to dump someone. But, how can we apply that to everyday conversation, it addresses that as well knowing that most confrontations are verbal ones everyday with loved ones and coworkers. Not physical ones against an unknown assailant.

So Aikido is not the only martial art that teaches harmony either with an opponent. Others just have a different approach to it. Ueshiba used what worked for him at the time and others have found that it works for them as well. Find one that has that approach that works for you, don't blame the approach though.
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Old 12-01-2000, 10:45 AM   #11
Nick
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Aikido is a serious martial art. Its techniques can only be executed if you truly intend to perform the technique. Therefore, "sparring" is of course a horrible way to prove that Aikido "works". First off, you and your opponent probably have some sort of gloves on, making wrist locks almost impossible. Second, if you don't want to actually hurt your opponent or don't have a nice mat for ukemi, most kokyunages are out. Basically what I'm saying is that if your resolve is not that of defeating your opponent, and simply "messing around", than Aikido will not work, period.

You mentioned the attacks are unrealistic. Ok, I'll give you that. However, how often is someone going to give you a nice centered zenkutsu dachi mune tsuki attack? Probably never, but karateka train against it and learn how to do it anyways. Why? So that by learning basic attacks, they will be able to defend against more advanced attacks, whether they realize it or not.

Does Aikido work? Watch someone like Ikeda-sensei, Saotome-sensei, Suenaka-sensei, O'sensei- and then tell me that it doesn't "work."

Nick

[Edited by Nick on December 1, 2000 at 10:47am]

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Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 12-01-2000, 11:03 AM   #12
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Quote:
joeysola wrote:
Suru, I agree with you. I have never trained in Aikido, but I was interested in finding out what it was all about and that is why I am here. I have a background in wrestling and boxing, and have recently taken up Jeet Kune Do and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. The school I am at does both. I have spared against people with Aikido backgrounds and their way of counter simple punches does not work at all and they get tagged big time over and over, not to mention that they can never seem to keep their hands up. Another problem I have seen is that there is no real matwork involved. There are thousands of guys out there who wrestled in high school and Aikido practitiors probably can get out of the most simple wrestling or Judo pins. I would like to pose a question now. Why can't someone train in a more practical martial art and still adhere to the principles of Aikido. Good boxing skills and grappling skills will allow you to avoid punches and take someone down without hurting them?
Joeysola,

I am also an ex-boxer and wrestler. I still love to work the bags. I just love these kinds of remarks. You started your post with a sentence "I have never trained in Aikido" that statement alone sort of voids the rest of your post don't you think?

So you've "spared" against people with Aikido backgrounds, and now you assume that ALL Aikidoka have the same level of proficiency? Give me a break! That's the same as saying well, I "spared" with a boxer and knocked him out so boxing doesn't work. Does that really make sense to you? I hope you don't drive around town with those blinders on.

I'll tell you what, If you're ever in Orlando Fl. look up Shindai Aikikai. Ask for Daniel Pokorny (thats me) Come pay us a visit. Find out for yourself what Aikido is then you'll truly have your answer.

Dan P. - Mongo
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Old 12-01-2000, 11:25 AM   #13
Mike Collins
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2 Points:

1. I feel that Aikido is an effective martial art.

2. I wish that everyone could train with the mindset of the person who started this thread. I truly believe that if we all trained with the concept that this stuff doesn't really work, but it sure is fun, and maybe we can learn some other stuff, we'd all let go of the stiffness that comes about as a result of concern for "what will work". If you train long enough, you just start to believe that it can work, and change the focus a bit to MAKE it more effective. It takes years to get to the point of being a serious enough student to know what is important.
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Old 12-01-2000, 11:25 AM   #14
MikeE
 
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Joeysola and Suru tend to be indicative of a lot of martial arts students I run across. I teach aikido (and am an assistant instructor in cross-training and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu) in a cross-training dojo. The main reason a person a person like these two would think that aikido doesn't work is that they prefer "the quick fix". You can learn to punch hard and effectively and develop combinations in little time. In even a shorter period you can learn quite a few submissions and proper position in BJJ.

You don't get a quick fix in aikido. It's a long, long journey.

Some people have the capacity to walk this road, others don't.

Just remember guys, you may think your bad, but at some point you may run into an aikidoka who may show you the path of universal peace and harmony.


Mike Ellefson
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Old 12-01-2000, 11:51 AM   #15
Suru
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Ki Symbol

RE: Mongo and Nick (prev. 2 threads)

About a year ago, I satisfied both your suggestions and attended a Saotome Shihan seminar at Shindai Aikikai in Orlando. I certainly felt a presense throughout the dojo. The chief instructor at Shindai, Hooker Sensei, was accepting his Rokudan certificate from Mitsugi Saotome. Even his knee-walk (shikko) was powerful. Saotome Sensei's presentation was intense, extraordinary, and fun. An important point Shihan made was that there exists NO "magic ki". I truly agreed with his point, because I know some aikidoka who really believe understanding ki will give them some magic powers. The seminar cocentrated on atemi, which showed me a more combat-effective aikido than I'd seen before. However, I still do not fully trust the aikiwaza I've learned for use during a physical conflict. Maybe in time, maybe in due time.

---Drew
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Old 12-01-2000, 12:02 PM   #16
les paul
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Quote:
joeysola wrote:
Suru, I agree with you. I have never trained in Aikido, I have a background in wrestling and boxing, and have recently taken up Jeet Kune Do and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. I have spared against people with Aikido backgrounds and their way of counter simple punches does not work at all and they get tagged big time over and over, not to mention that they can never seem to keep their hands up. Another problem I have seen is that there is no real matwork involved. There are thousands of guys out there who wrestled in high school and Aikido practitiors probably can get out of the most simple wrestling or Judo pins. I would like to pose a question now. Why can't someone train in a more practical martial art and still adhere to the principles of Aikido.
Hey Joeysola

I've been reading your posts and I must say your partially correct. There are a lot of Aikido schools out there that are flat out crap! Like most internal arts (e.g. Taichiquan) Aikido is in danger of being taken over by Hippie wanna-be's who do nothin but talk about their latest Ki experiences. Most don't really know Ukemi. Most go through a training session without getting a bruse. Many get confused as to "Why" Aikido was created in the first place, thinking it some sort of new age religion. Unknown to most is that O'Sensi created Aikido to still the mind of a Budoka resulting in an inner peace.

The key term is Budoka "One who practices Budo!" (i.e. A martial art used to cultivate the spirit!) When I hear someone say I don't practice Aikido for fighting, I think that's a bunch of B.S. (then go join a Zen monastery!) If you don't practice Aikido for fighting/self defense then why are you doing it? Yea! yea! yea! some people claim to practice Aikido for the fun of it. "I guess they find it fun defending themselves against an attacker? (this is probably true, but are we not right back to the idea of Budo) Then we have the ones who say "I practice Aikido for the spirtual side", "crap it's all "bloody crap!" That is like me saying I fire my handgun at the range for spiritual gratification.... I suppose O'sensi got spiritual gratification when he defended Aikido against Judoka, Karateka etc....


There are Aikido Dojo out there that train hard and practical. At our school we watch the new age Hippies come into our dojo and high tail it out as fast as you can say "can I help you?" In this month alone I've seen a 6 foot 2 inch bouncer, 1st Dan in Taekwondo and and a Karateka leave after only several session. Most of the Aikidoka at our dojo could perform well in judo and jujitsu tournaments, some do(myself included). We practice ground fighting and most of us use close to full speed strikes as Uke. One of the Aikidoka at our dojo grappled with Royce Gracie during a Jujitsu clinic and Sensi Gracie commented on how elusive he was. (That speaks volumes in itself) We use small circles and don't train in flowery stuff that looks good, but doesn't work.

Joeysola you also have to remember that some of these people on this news group are the type of people I'm talking about when describing "new age hippies". They subscribe to all the latest Ki cultivating magizines, never knowing Ki is simply the combimation of technique, willpower, and skill. They go there whole Aikido career never believing Ki can be achieved through long hard practice. By pointing out their lack of Budo you are highliting insecurities within themselves(they know they're not really training, they just get mad when they realize you know too).

You should know this by now and should stop antagonizng them. If you walk on the martial side then know that there are "some" Aikidoka that also walk the walk and talk the talk.
Aikido for now is still Budo, but for how long I can not say....let's hope it doesn't go the way of Taichiquan.

Budo is Budo nothing more..... nothing less......

Paul Calugaru
Michigan
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Old 12-01-2000, 01:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Suru wrote:
RE: Mongo and Nick (prev. 2 threads)

About a year ago, I satisfied both your suggestions and attended a Saotome Shihan seminar at Shindai Aikikai in Orlando. I certainly felt a presense throughout the dojo. The chief instructor at Shindai, Hooker Sensei, was accepting his Rokudan certificate from Mitsugi Saotome. Even his knee-walk (shikko) was powerful. Saotome Sensei's presentation was intense, extraordinary, and fun. An important point Shihan made was that there exists NO "magic ki". I truly agreed with his point, because I know some aikidoka who really believe understanding ki will give them some magic powers. The seminar cocentrated on atemi, which showed me a more combat-effective aikido than I'd seen before. However, I still do not fully trust the aikiwaza I've learned for use during a physical conflict. Maybe in time, maybe in due time.

---Drew
Drew,

Please let me know next time you're around. I'd really like to work with you. (we may have already and didn't know it) HA! Yes, Saotome Sensei's seminars are fantastic! His wife, Patty Saotome sensei will be at Shindai the weekend of Dec. 8th (next weekend) for a seminar as well. Let me know if you can make it and we'll bang heads or something. Bring your weapons as well. I consider myself really blessed to be associated with such fine instructors as Hooker sensei and Saotome(s) sensei's and Dr. Jones sensei. There is no BS with these people otherwise, believe me, I wouldn't be here. What they teach works very well but it's like anything else you do, it takes practice, practice and then some more practice. Did I mention the practice?

It sounds to me (and don't take this as a negative) that you are really questioning your own ability to execute the techniques under "real" conditions, rather than the efficiency of the techniques themselves.
Perhaps Ledyard sensei can elaborate on this point, but I think what you're feeling is not all that uncommon with a lot of students. I'll bet a lot of people feel that way until the principles are really understood. For me, I have a history of fighting so I'm a little more willing to try things under "real" situations. I think people without a lot of fighting experience will always doubt their abilities until it's showtime. Actually being attacked, and getting hit is unfamiliar to them and we as humans tend to fall back on what we've done in the past rather than take a chance on what we've learned. It's really human nature at work here. Thats why it's so important to put the practice time in. In time (I am told) technique becomes reflex. I have not totally reached that state yet, and I know I have a long way to go. I must say though, I'm really enjoying this journey!

In regard to Hooker sensei's power, I've had the honor and privilege of being his uke for a couple years now and well.... ahhhh...... WOW! All I can tell you is you need to experience it for yourself. Stop by and grab him once! You may want to warm up first though, ah, try grabbing the bumper of the next fully loaded dump truck you see going by at 90 miles an hour. That might give you an idea.........

Well, enough of this, I'm off to become one with the mat!

Train hard, Play hard, Live easy

Dan P. - Mongo


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Old 12-01-2000, 03:15 PM   #18
NYFE Man
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Lightbulb

Utter newbie voicing an opinion here.

It seems from the little experience I've had, and the reading that I've done, that the ultimate goal of Aikido is to be so in harmony with all things that there is no reason that you WOULD be attacked.

"First master the techniques of Aiki
The way of the Gods
Then no enemy will ever attack"


Unfortunately, there is such macho posturing about EVERYTHING, especially here in the US, that the concept of using your mind to avoid a fight is seen as cowardice and therefore the erstwhile Aikidoka is goaded into "proving" that his technique works, and actually moves away from the true spirit of the form. No wonder they fail.

It seems to me that truly mastering of Aikido would mean that you would never have gotten to the place that you need to use it.

Al Foote III
The Utter Newbie
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Old 12-01-2000, 03:21 PM   #19
crystalwizard
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Quote:
Suru wrote:
However, I still do not fully trust the aikiwaza I've learned for use during a physical conflict. Maybe in time, maybe in due time.

---Drew
But that's good. You wont get overconfident and cocky when faced with a combat situation and maybe wont make as many mistakes. Gotta ask..are you working toward getting out of such situations before they get to the physical point if at all possible? Or better not allowing yourself to get into them at all?

[Edited by crystalwizard on December 1, 2000 at 09:40pm]

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Kelly Christiansen

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Old 12-01-2000, 06:20 PM   #20
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Yours truly looks at assembled Aikidoka (and Joey) pulls down eyelid and sticks out tongue, then gives all the assembled a rasberry in the best anime fashion.

;-P ~biiiiiiiiiiii

Come guys don't worry about what other people think. If somebody doesn't think Aikido works that is their problem. If they attack you they just may find out how well an Aikidoka does in a combat situation. But most likely they won't.

As for me I am gonna kepp training as hard and as often as I possibly can.

Later ya'll.

ps. Hey Mongo some of the guys and myself from Embry Riddle's Aiki O'kami society are gonna be at Saotome Sensei's semminar. Could you or anyone else that is attending drop me a line?

Outlawone1@aol.com
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Old 12-01-2000, 09:25 PM   #21
Niadh
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 69
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Ok, so Maybe some of the details are a little blurry in my mind, you know that whole time slows down and everyone around you moves in slo-mo thing, but if aikido just doesn't really work, why did I not get my belly sliced open 6 years ago when that teen attacked me with a 12" long piece of jagged glass? How was I able to take it from him with nothing more for damage to him, than a sore wrist, and the cuts to his palm that he inflicted in weilding it? nd don't tell me it wasn't a committed attack and he wasn't really trying. I was there, I saw it in his eyes.
This was after only 5 years, when I knew more than I do now about Aikido. Ok, so maybe my kotegasihe wasn't pretty, and wasn't against a stylized attack. But I am here, and depsite his screaming for me to go ahead and break his wrist, he still had two working wrists last I knew.
Sorry folks, you may be more or less andvanced in rank than I, but I am convinced that my aikido can work. Sure, there are plenty of people out there that are still bigger and badder than I, but thats why I practice the rest of Aikidos principles.
Neil

Non Satis Scire
Niadh Feathers
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Old 12-01-2000, 09:38 PM   #22
crystalwizard
Dojo: Aikido of Dallas
Location: Dallas
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 123
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Quote:
les paul wrote:
never knowing Ki is simply the combimation of technique, willpower, and skill.

You have a little bit to learn if you believe that is all it is.

____________
Kelly Christiansen

A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror
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Old 12-01-2000, 10:00 PM   #23
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 454
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One of the most important reasons for my doubts of aikido's effectiveness lies in the difference between a practice situation and a real situation.

The uke is a calm human being, moving smoothly without any intent of causing injury.

The man with enough anger and ferociousness to want to beat another down, and perhaps to death, has transcended the realm of humanity and become an instinctive animal. A viscious, unfamiliar, frightening, erratic, epinephrine-filled, testasterone-filled, and endorphin-filled animal. This animal will scare the ki out of most anyone.

In the dojo, we certainly learn to overcome some select fears, but we do not learn how to overcome the freezing fear of a ruthless attacking animal. We practice comfortably with fellow loving aikidoka, but I feel there is nothing comfortable about a life-threatening situation. I think I'd end up in the fetal position before trying to smoothly guide the enemy's aggressive energy, then attempting to lovingly change his heart and intentions. I like the ideal for a peaceful resolution, but I lack the faith in its utility.

---Drew
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Old 12-01-2000, 10:15 PM   #24
Niadh
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 69
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Drew,
to use the above stated example.
Who said anything about smooth? I will readily admit to being afraid. the glass/shiv was reall, the attack was real, the feear was real. But lets be honest. I had no desire to be lying on the ground holding in my guts. Therefore I needed to do something. In this case it worked. In another case, I was at a movie when these rather rude young men became loud. I aske the management to ask them to be quiet. No sense in creating a scene and all that. After the management had left, they promptly walked over and began threatening me. After attempting to calmly explain that I was trying to watch a movie with my wife, and would they please go away and be quiet. They escalated. Not wanting to be caught unaware I stood and faced them, and centered. With no more than that I showed them that I was not afraid and had confidence. they left. Would I have faired as well as in the other case, I don't know. But they, for some reason, decided that this was no longer fun. Remember part of being victimized is being a victim. Be determined not to be and people generally go elswhere looking for easier prey. My wife used this example in a sermon a few weeks later, stating that I showed no fear. Good, I am glad that the fear did not show, but the truth is it took another 10 minutes for my knees to stop shaking, and when we left the theatre at the end of the movie, I was looking around VERY carefully for those people, so as to not be caught unaware. Is this not using Aikido comabt effectively as much as the former example? No I di not make them back down, they made thir own choice, as do we all. I simply showed that my choice was to NOT be a victim. They than had to decide on their choice. True, I could have sat there and hoped that someone else would deal with the situation, but tha was being a victim. Se above.
Sorry so long, I got ramblin' on
Neil

Non Satis Scire
Niadh Feathers
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Old 12-02-2000, 03:35 AM   #25
"Sid"
IP Hash: fb52666b
Anonymous User
If I may say something.

This point was brought up earleir, but I feel I must reiterate it -

Aikido takes time!!! No newbie aikidoka's technique is goign to wrok against the blood-thirsty "animal" described above, but against an aikidoka with 15 years of experience?

A slightly different situation!!

Also, the point about not doing aikido for the fighting, when a poster said to "go join a zen monastery". I feel this is the wrong attitude - aikido is about avoiding fights, and if you want to do it for the spiritual aspects, go right ahead.

The ki, "new age hippie", thing is also slightly wrong. If this is the case, what is Osensei? He talked about ki! And Koichi Tohei?

Remember, newbie, IMHO, is up to about 6 years of experience. When you understand aikido, then it will work. It is tooo easy to see a 1st year aikidoka fight or train, and say, 'oh it doesn't work". Look at the masters or the sensei. If youre brave enough, train with them. If it doesn't work then, then you have a right to say ti doesn't work.

Ok?

Sid


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