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Old 06-10-2003, 07:23 AM   #1
bluwing27
 
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Confused Ganseki otoshi?

OK....Just thought I would throw this out there.....

Does anyone actually train to learn Ganseki Otoshi? Coz ive only ever seen it in books and have yet to come across anyone who has done it or been taught it. (Other than my half attempts at trying to copy the piccies! )

For those who dont know I think its kind of like a koshi nage but instead or uke rolling over your hips stomach down they are stomach up...i think! Either way...ouch!

Chris
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Old 06-10-2003, 07:38 AM   #2
kensparrow
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One of the senior students at our dojo showed me something like what you describe. He got behind me facing 90 degrees to the direction I was facing and then grabbed the back of my collar with his outside hand while bending over and drawing my back over his (koshinage style). Fortunately he only loaded me up and didn't complete the throw! He told me that his Sempai at the dojo he used to train at would use this technique on him causing him to flip completely over and land on his feet! Like I said, fortunately he didn't complete the throw!
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:28 AM   #3
Greg Jennings
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The ganseki otoshi that I know is more of an upside down kata guruma than an upside down koshinage.

I.e., uke is not across nage's hips but rather across his shoulders.

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Greg Jennings
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:41 AM   #4
Alan Mung
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My understanding of the technique was as Greg said. You go in to do a kataguruma and load uke across your shoulders but instead of throwing across for the wheel effect you drop uke down over your head, giving the name 'rock drop' I guess.

Out of curiosity please, what books have you seen this technique in?

A good example of this technique can be seen in the Isoyama Sensei video clip on the Aikido Journal wesbite.

I have seen my Sensei use this several times but we don't train in it all that often.
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Old 06-10-2003, 09:13 AM   #5
jxa127
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I've been thrown that way. My sensei did it in class a couple of times. I think our new dojo has a ceiling that is too low to do it any more.

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-Drew

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Old 06-10-2003, 10:43 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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There are a few variations of this in aikido. Nathan Scott used to have a clip on his web page that I liked a lot, so I practised a few entries to it. I could see it being pretty devasting without mats or ukemi experience, if you could get it.

The daito ryu versions are pretty neat too.

Ron

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Old 06-10-2003, 01:03 PM   #7
Doug Mathieu
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Hi

I have been shown and done Ganseki Otoshi but only once or twice.

There is an good video produced by the Cranes which has a section for Ganseki Otoshi. They demonstrate it from quite a few different attacks and show two types of entries.

The Cranes have produced a series of instruction videos produced by Cool Rain, 7 plus 3 supplements.

The supplement titled "lost techniques" has this on it. Pretty neat to see. Conicidently I just saw that tape this last weekend.
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Old 06-10-2003, 02:37 PM   #8
akiy
 
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I remember a seminar with Isoyama sensei in which he used a friend of mine from my dojo for his "signature technique," ganseki otoshi. Isoyama sensei said, "Now, I usually don't show this technique as it requires a good uke," then proceeded to throw my friend with the technique. He said it was fun.

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Old 06-10-2003, 03:27 PM   #9
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Edward Clifford-Smith (Alan Mung) wrote:
Out of curiosity please, what books have you seen this technique in?
Aikido in Training (it's in the book, too. But the video is very cool.)

Saito has it on the cover of one of his books. Don't recall if it's taught inside the book.

There's a DR DVD available from Julio Toribio which has a technique called GANSEKI OTOSHI in the NIKKAJO, I think it was. It's not as being discussed here, but interesting from the contrast anyway.

It's also done several times in the Takeda Sokaku 50th anniversery video available on aikidojournal.com.

Isn't Isoyama's GANSEKI stomach to shoulders rather than back to shoulders, i.e., KATA GURUMA?

Don J. Modesto
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Old 06-10-2003, 03:40 PM   #10
akiy
 
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Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Isn't Isoyama's GANSEKI stomach to shoulders rather than back to shoulders, i.e., KATA GURUMA?
Now that you mention it, I do believe that Isoyama sensei's throw as I mention above did have uke's stomach on nage's shoulders (rather than stomach up)...

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Old 06-10-2003, 07:36 PM   #11
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
Saito has it on the cover of one of his books. Don't recall if it's taught inside the book.
It is.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-10-2003, 11:26 PM   #12
Charles Hill
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Isoyama Sensei's ganseki otoshi is always a big hit at the All Japan Aikido Demo at the Budokan every year. Anyone who's attended can tell you how boring the demo can get. Then Isoyama Sensei comes out and throws that shaven headed uke really hard and really high.

Everyone watching goes nuts.

I was taught the technique from an iriminage type entry with uke's stomach facing up.

Charles
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Old 06-11-2003, 05:17 AM   #13
bluwing27
 
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Quote:
Ken Sparrow (kensparrow) wrote:
He got behind me facing 90 degrees to the direction I was facing and then grabbed the back of my collar with his outside hand while bending over and drawing my back over his (koshinage style).
Yup....This is how Ive seen it done

Ive seen the clip os Isoyama too and its pretty cool, extremely proficient and crisp, but I didnt take what he does to be the same technique coz of the whole stomach up/down thing!

It could be obviously pretty devastating so this is probably why not a lot of people seem to learn it or train in it? A highly bouncy and agile uke is required or......ouch! A trip to the hospital methinks!

So has anyone decided on whether its over the hips or over the shoulders? I can see both working, probably dictated by the size of yourself relative to your uke.

Oh...and im not 100% sure but I think i saw a photograph of o'sensei doing it in Budo?

'The truth is that which is true, whether you know it or not and whether you like it or not'
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Old 06-11-2003, 06:45 AM   #14
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Edward Clifford-Smith (Alan Mung) wrote:
My understanding of the technique was as Greg said. You go in to do a kataguruma and load uke across your shoulders but instead of throwing across for the wheel effect you drop uke down over your head, giving the name 'rock drop' I guess.
The way we do it, the "normal form" of both kata guruma and ganseki otoshi involve the "wheel effect".

Both also have variations that change the form to dropping and flat spinning throws.

BTW, we also an upside-down (small of back to hips) and sideways (uke's side to nage's hips) koshinage.

For my own use, I categorize all things that use the nage's hips as a axle for uke to rotate around as koshinage. All things that use the shoulders as the axle are kata guruma. In that vein, I just think of ganseki otoshi as a henka of kata guruma.

This starts getting a little fuzzy because the "standard" way we do iriminage whips uke around nage's hips with nage's trunk still vertical (vice canted over some as in koshinage).

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-11-2003, 07:00 AM   #15
bluwing27
 
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Does anyone know of any vid clips online of these throws? both ganseki otoshi and kata guruma? (apart from the one of Isoyama Sensei...ive already got that one )

'The truth is that which is true, whether you know it or not and whether you like it or not'
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Old 06-11-2003, 07:23 AM   #16
Alan Mung
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I am not aware of any other clips with these sort of techniques in them I am afraid. I would be very interested to see them myself though if you track any down!

Thanks for the book references. I actually have a copy of Budo and now you mention it I think Budo Training In Aikido may have some illustrations of these techniques in it. I know it refers to Seoi Nage but the pictures for each technique require quite a lot of imagination to visualise the whole flow of the technique.
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Old 06-11-2003, 08:45 AM   #17
Fiona D
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Seems like 'ganseki otoshi' has quite a few different incarnations. What I learned in jiu jitsu was similar in characteristics to a standard shoulder throw like 'ippon seio nage', but nage pulls a little more sideways when in front of uke, then drops to one knee as the throw is executed (the knee on the floor is the same side as the shoulder over which uke is flying). It's a little harder to fall from than ippon seio nage because of nage's drop assisting the usual acceleration-due-to-gravity.

But I just typed in 'ganseki otoshi' in Google to see what would happen, and found an interesting sequence of pictures showing the uke's-stomach-upwards version that some people were mentioning. Here's the URL for the sequence:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aikido.guade...eki_otoshi.htm

Looks like a pretty scary throw......

PS. Judo websites may well have kata guruma animations, since it seems to be a popular throw.
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Old 06-11-2003, 12:24 PM   #18
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
For my own use, I categorize all things that use the nage's hips as a axle for uke to rotate around as koshinage. All things that use the shoulders as the axle are kata guruma. In that vein, I just think of ganseki otoshi as a henka of kata guruma.
Nice.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 06-11-2003, 03:30 PM   #19
bluwing27
 
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Thanks for all the info chaps!

It all makes a little more sense to me now!

'The truth is that which is true, whether you know it or not and whether you like it or not'
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Old 06-11-2003, 04:28 PM   #20
Dave Miller
 
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Exclamation Dang!

I think that I would much prefer to be nage on that throw.








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Old 06-11-2003, 04:46 PM   #21
Dave Miller
 
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I looked up the name. Apparently it means "rock drop". Somehow, that seems to fit.

Here's a link to a page with a video of Saito Sensei performing the technique:

http://www.chez.com/aikidossiers/francais/videos.htm


Last edited by Dave Miller : 06-11-2003 at 05:00 PM.

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Old 07-10-2003, 05:56 PM   #22
mura-san
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This is Ganseki Otoshi photo.
Into of this book is Ganseki Otoshi technique.
Uke:Hitohiro Saito

Last edited by mura-san : 07-10-2003 at 06:05 PM.
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