Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-06-2003, 01:06 PM   #1
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 70
Offline
wing chun

hi
i want to start wing chun soon as an addition to aikido. good idea right? cause both emphasize in evasing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 01:44 PM   #2
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
The common advice given to such question is that you should reach black belt level in one art before taking on another art which is radically different.

And Wing Chun IS different.

If you start dabbling in two dissimilar arts from the start, you will only confuse yourself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 01:59 PM   #3
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 70
Offline
my dojo instructor said win chung was quite similar and would be a good addition too aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 02:00 PM   #4
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
From what I've seen, Wing Chun is pretty radically different. I don't see a lot of evading in it, as in moving and turning the whole body like Aikido. They seem to plant themselves and/or advance straight forward and try to jam a barrage of attacks straight down the middle. The deflections and parries seemed much smaller and stiffer than those of Aikido.

Some of the 'sticky hands' arm stuff might be compatible with Aikido, but I think the problem would be that while your mind is caught up in managing the arm tangle, it's not where you want it for Aikido, which is taking in the whole picture of whose weight is where and where you want to move your entire body.

In my brief dabbling with the sticky-hands drills, I found the way one was supposed to alternate between relaxation and striking tension very foreign and frustrating.

Whether to do more than one martial art at a time is a tricky thing to decide. In addition to the problem of confusion, you are making a choice about depth vs. breadth. It depends upon your aims. Every time I went off to explore something else I ended up concluding that I would rather take that energy/time/recovery capacity and use it for more Aikido or fitness/conditioning activities.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 05-06-2003 at 02:06 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 02:46 PM   #5
Kensai
Location: South West UK
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 216
Offline
Wing Chun is nothing like Aikido, in that the key emphasis on tactics, physical movement and mentallity are very different.

Although, I disagree that you need to be a BB in one art before starting another. I started Judo about 7 months after starting Aikido and I have yet found no problems. In fact, if you do intend to cross train, you dont want to get in to one arts mind set. Ie, Aikido Ukemi in Judo, or Judo Breakfalls in Aikido, or Karate tsuki in Aikido... etc.

Just aslong as you can sperate them when you training and you should have no problems.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 02:56 PM   #6
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Judo has far more similarities to Aikido than does Wing Chun.

Like Kevin mentions above, stuff like Wing Chun is stiffer and relies on a different kind of footwork, posture and mindset.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 03:34 PM   #7
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
The only thing that might be similar to aikido with respect to wing chun is if they practice chin na (the mother of all locking and pinning arts).

I was trying to do three arts at once: aikido, tai chi and kali. It got confusing since I was not black belt level in any of them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 03:47 PM   #8
Dave Miller
 
Dave Miller's Avatar
Dojo: UCO Budo Society
Location: Oklahoma
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 204
Offline
Quote:
I started Judo about 7 months after starting Aikido and I have yet found no problems.
Quote:
Judo has far more similarities to Aikido than does Wing Chun.
I agree completely. The fact that Aikido has been called "Judo at a distance" says a lot. Let's not forget that many great Aikidoka have also been outstanding Judo players.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2003, 08:13 PM   #9
asiawide
Location: Seoul
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 117
Offline
One of my aikido teachers used to teach

some basic movements of wing chun. I

learned how to block fast and strong

shomen or yokomen uchi using wing chun

handworks. And wingchun handworks

can seamlessly combined to aikido

techniques. So I like it.

Jaemin
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 05:31 AM   #10
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 70
Offline
hmm my teacher said that an aikidoka has clear disadvantages against other martial arts because they dont attack and he said mixing a striking art would be good.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 07:06 AM   #11
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 255
Netherlands
Offline
Peter,

It sounds to me that your instructor has problems with teaching Aikido as Aikido,IMHO.Cross traing in other MA is good if you have some understanding of principles and the natural synthesis of energy flows. BUT combining a linear attck with circular evasion can be very difficult. Even more difficult is the nature of intent in percussive arts which is fundamentally different than controlling an opponent. The striking art within Aikido is atemi, extensively discussed in other threads, which utilises tai sabaki and extension of a hand or elbow or shoulder or even the back, as demonstrated by Shioda Sensei. Furthermore meeting the ground with your chin is more powerful than most punches, and iriminage into a wall is devastating, if that is what you are seeking. Aikido, skillfully used allows you to take advantage of your environment and make other things (or people) your partner.

One last thing, Chen style Tai Chi, taught by an instructor with a background in combat Wu Shu, fits far more naturally to the energy flow of Aikido than Wing Chun although both are superb arts.

Dont change your art, change yourself.

regards, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 07:33 AM   #12
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
hmm my teacher said that an aikidoka has clear disadvantages against other martial arts because they dont attack and he said mixing a striking art would be good.
In addition to using the dynamics to whack people into objects, it seems to me that if you are successful enough at positioning yourself advantageously with your initial Aikido responses, you don't need a whole striking art to add striking, you just need to be able to strike. Go through any of the wrist-torquing or ikkyo series techniques and look at all the places where your situational advantage gives you free reign to pause and pummel.

A whole different strategy and set of formalities isn't necessary. What you could use, though, is some basic instruction in how to put weight/body torque into a punch - bascially how to punch really hard, and some conditioning to cultivate the capability. Regularly spending some time with a lightish heavy bag, using the bag's reaction as feedback isn't a bad idea. I found those thin little multi-colored Bruce Lee paperbacks pretty useful for DIY experimentation.

On the other hand, the way you've phrased that makes it sound like you're thinking of getting into showdowns with various types of trained martial artists. If so, you'd better cross-train. In fact, I'd probably drop Aikido for the time being and take some crash courses in full-contact kickboxing and grappling.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 07:57 AM   #13
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 70
Offline
hmm irimi nage? i mean our irimi nage is that you go behind your uke and use his attack to throw him on the floor is that a natural irimi nage?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 08:39 AM   #14
Dave Miller
 
Dave Miller's Avatar
Dojo: UCO Budo Society
Location: Oklahoma
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 204
Offline
Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
hmm irimi nage? i mean our irimi nage is that you go behind your uke and use his attack to throw him on the floor is that a natural irimi nage? (emphasis added)
I think that you answered your own question. The thing that sets Aikido apart from most other arts is that the Aikidoka adds very little energy to the system. Rather, he/she uses the attacker's energy against them. This is primarily due to Ueshibo's philosophy of pacifism.

There are other arts that blend balance-breaking with percussive techniques (I like that term), such as Hopkido. Reading some of your posts, I suspect that something like that may be a more natural fit for you than traditional Aikido.

DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 09:46 AM   #15
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
Wing Chun is similar in some principles - efficiency and blending. There are also some useful training practices in wing chun. For some reason they also seem to attract similar people (those who aren't impatient to learn and are often looking for something more sophisticated).

However, I found Wing Chun slightly frustrating since they don't focus on body movement as much and this focus on attacking the centre line tends to suggest that people can't attack you with a round-house. However I am more of a fan of chinese derived martial arts than Japanese ones (I think they preserve more of the original martial art)*

Like every training - understand the assumptions behind the training methadology and you'll get something real out of it.

Ian

*obviously aikido excluded!

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 09:53 AM   #16
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
P.S. I agree that training in a striking/attacking art is useful. However much of the striking techniques can be reinforced outside the dojo. In addition, all too often striking is taught between too stationary opponents - this can actually reduce your ability to move. Gozo shioda believes that the striking training as uke within aikido is all you need. Striking can seem superficially more powerful, but in self-defence situations you rarely just want to stand opposite each other and pound each other. In many cases escape and evasion is much better, or even non aggressive/damaging responses.

My advice - focus on one martial art or another until you understand what is being simulated. Do some striking practise if necessary. Also, don't believe everything a sensei says! - I think your own martial art is a path you ultimately walk alone. Work at your martial art and when YOU feel you need to improve different aspects of it, work on it. Always question yourself.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 02:25 PM   #17
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
Location: Cologne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 70
Offline
o.k thank you Ian
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 04:19 PM   #18
Dave Miller
 
Dave Miller's Avatar
Dojo: UCO Budo Society
Location: Oklahoma
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 204
Offline
Quote:
Jaime McGrath wrote:
Unless its a hockey fight....
Isn't "hockey fight" a bit redundant?


DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 05:45 PM   #19
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
However I am more of a fan of chinese derived martial arts than Japanese ones (I think they preserve more of the original martial art)*

*obviously aikido excluded!
I would like to know what you are basing this assessment upon, as everything I have ever read suggests the exact opposite.

The history of Chinese martial arts is riddled with tales of teachers who withheld the most important teachings from senior students, fearing coups. There are endless accounts of teachers deliberately misleading/misteaching whole groups of students they thought less worthy. Non-chinese have almost always fit into this category, and most of what passes for gung fu available in the west is of highly suspect authenticity... teachers making high-sounding claims or the presence of lots of fancy traditional-looking chinese stuff in their dojo notwithstanding.

Japanese arts, on the other hand, are typically passed down conservatively, whole and unchanged from teacher to successor - particularly the traditional bujutsu. Their cultural tendencies toward strictness, order, loyalty, etc... enable traditions to be carried on fully intact. One of the oldest extant martial arts in the world is Japanese: Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which is still practiced almost precisely as it was almost 500 years ago. Jodo is nearly as old.

One can see evidence of this cultural tendency in many of the Japanese arts. Architecturally, for instance, there are Shinto temple buildings which have not just been preserved, but periodically a precise replacement is built right beside it and the old one raised - all the behaviors and traditions of the monks are so well preserved that they can continue to build them exactly the same in perpetuity.

There are some Japanese arts of questionable lineage, like Ninjutsu, but most arts where hakama are worn have extensive records proving a succession of masters dedicated to the selfless preservation of the art. Aikido is not one of these. The lineage to one's sensei may be verifiable, but this doesn't mean what you are learning is just like what O'Sensei taught at any given time. It's a young art, and even in its short existence it seems that few of the shihan (at least the ones we encounter in the west) are content to merely continue doing what they were taught by wrote. Most let the art evolve and adapt to fit their philosophies and experience.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2003, 06:47 PM   #20
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
Location: New Hampshire
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 93
Offline
Quote:
Alec Corper wrote:
Peter,

One last thing, Chen style Tai Chi, taught by an instructor with a background in combat Wu Shu, fits far more naturally to the energy flow of Aikido than Wing Chun although both are superb arts.

regards, Alec
Be careful here. The breathing methods used in Chinese Martial Arts can be very different from those in Japanese Martial Arts. The Chinese concept of Ki (Chi) is that it moves on a revolving basis across the universe in a very finite way; being with us in one state, then "not in our favor" in another. The Japanese concept of Ki is that it is in an infinite "form," into which we can tap and draw endless amounts depending upon how much we give away--the more you give, the more you receive. Plus, we are channels for Ki, and it should always be moving through us. To try and hold it in can be devastating. It's like love, the more you give, the more you get. You can give it, you can receive it, but you can't contain it and use it selfishly.

Anyway, since the principles and methodology are different, I have found--after twenty years of hard, soft, Chinese (including Chin Na), Japanese, etc.--that the most solid center (which depends upon breathing and channeling Ki) I've ever had comes from Aikido training. I can lift a three hundred pound uke with little effort, and am at two feet so far with Hand of a Thousand Bells.

The point is, if you're going to mix and match, have a center first. The techniques from any style can be adapted to be useful if you have a center. And if your philosophy is sound, then you will end up where you should be when it's time.

Last edited by Jeff R. : 05-07-2003 at 06:50 PM.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2003, 07:51 AM   #21
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,670
United_States
Offline
Having cross trained in WC/JKD/FMA, I like it. IMHO, I think it complements Aikido well because it is similiar and dissimiliar. If you already have a strong base in Aikido and feel inclined to check WC out, have at it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2003, 02:04 PM   #22
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
Offline
Peter,

Train in as many arts as you can. You will discover that there is no such thing as technique , form, or theory. Those things are for beginning and intermediate students who have no grasp of martial principles. It might take 30 years, but your training in Wing Chun will blend seemlessly with your aikido.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2003, 08:16 AM   #23
Johnny Chiutten
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 18
Offline
Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
Peter,

Train in as many arts as you can. You will discover that there is no such thing as technique , form, or theory. Those things are for beginning and intermediate students who have no grasp of martial principles. It might take 30 years, but your training in Wing Chun will blend seemlessly with your aikido.
Thats the most logical and intelligent comment on this whole subject. I totally agree with you that the martial principle is one and universal. I hope more people will understand this and not argue about uselesss forms and techniques.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2003, 08:29 AM   #24
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Quote:
Johnny Chiutten wrote:
Thats the most logical and intelligent comment on this whole subject. I totally agree with you that the martial principle is one and universal. I hope more people will understand this and not argue about uselesss forms and techniques.
It may be logical and intelligent, but it is virtually irrelevant to the initial querist's concern. He wanted some ideas on whether cross-training now would be a good idea, not 30 years from now. Is this supposedly wise position that one will grasp the martial principles in time no matter how one trains?

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 05-13-2003 at 08:31 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2003, 08:40 AM   #25
Jeff R.
Dojo: River Valley
Location: New Hampshire
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 93
Offline
Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
The point is, if you're going to mix and match, have a center first. The techniques from any style can be adapted to be useful if you have a center. And if your philosophy is sound, then you will end up where you should be when it's time.
Oh, this guy makes an interesting point.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Koretoshi Maruyama European Seminar - Maruyama Sensei will be in Cumbria UK, 1st-3rd August, 2014



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I want to kick and punch! Olivia_S General 50 07-17-2005 09:45 PM
and wing chun doesn't win... Jan Glembotzki Techniques 30 09-23-2004 05:06 PM
Chicken Wing Thomas Froman Techniques 8 01-29-2003 05:53 AM
Aikido vs. WingTsun Jorx General 10 04-02-2002 08:49 AM
Aki-Jitsu The One General 40 04-01-2001 03:41 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:22 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate