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Old 10-21-2011, 05:11 PM   #1526
genin
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I just read an account of a murder victim who was approached by an armed robber--the robber grabbed his wrist so he could get at his wallet. The guy pulled away and in the scuffle a shot was fired through his heart and killed him. That was an instance where the enemy actually grabbed the person's wrist, which is a best case scenario for an aikidoist. But if they victim had used aikido to disable and disarm the robber, would that really be considered him winning a fight? It's more him protecting himself by neutralizing a threat. It's not really "fighting" per se.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:42 PM   #1527
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But why is budo training better?
Better? I don't know if it is better (better than what, btw?) it is different. In budo training you cultivate different things than in other activities.

Quote:
And why is this specific type of budo training -- training which seeks to prepare you for real fights -- better than less "realistic" budo training?
Both produce different kind of people.

Quote:
Closely related is the question of what "real" means, anyway. Which is more real? Full contact sparring with gloves and protective gear, or paired koryu sword kata with live blades?
Both are training/teaching/transmission of knowledge tools. In full contact sparring you learn different things than when doing kata with live blades, but none of them is the real thing.

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Old 10-21-2011, 07:39 PM   #1528
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Sorry if I seem to be picking on you, Demetrio. What I'm getting at is that most of these "does aikido work" threads include a lot of unspoken assumptions. Not only the obvious -- what does it mean for aikido to "work?" -- but also assumptions about "realism" and about the goals of budo training. It's not at all clear to me that pursuit of "martial effectiveness" necessarily has much to do with any of the other goals of budo.

As I previously noted, neither professional fighters nor successful street fighters are generally known for their excellence as human beings. In fact, you could argue that "success" in "real fights" requires a level of viciousness that's not really compatible with life in civilized society. (See also the high level of post-traumatic stress and similar disorders in soldiers and other people who've actually had to do significant amounts of "real fighting.")

Which is not to say that "tough training" isn't valuable, just that I think it's important to be clear about exactly what one is trying to achieve, and what the tradeoffs are. Remember that the most "martially effective" samurai were brutal killers first, and gentlemen and philosophers only after they had eradicated their enemies.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. -- Nietzsche

Katherine
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:23 PM   #1529
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Sorry if I seem to be picking on you, Demetrio. What I'm getting at is that most of these "does aikido work" threads include a lot of unspoken assumptions. Not only the obvious -- what does it mean for aikido to "work?" -- but also assumptions about "realism" and about the goals of budo training. It's not at all clear to me that pursuit of "martial effectiveness" necessarily has much to do with any of the other goals of budo.
Well, I think achieving martial efectiveness is one of the effects of technologies of the self that run under the classification of "budo". If there is not a substantial increase in the martial efectiveness, something is not going right. Like if you do tea ceremony but the tea tastes awfully; even if tea ceremony is not only about making tea, if the result is vomitive, you tell me...

Quote:
As I previously noted, neither professional fighters nor successful street fighters are generally known for their excellence as human beings.
I don't know how excellence in this field can be objectively measured.

Quote:
In fact, you could argue that "success" in "real fights" requires a level of viciousness that's not really compatible with life in civilized society. (See also the high level of post-traumatic stress and similar disorders in soldiers and other people who've actually had to do significant amounts of "real fighting.")
Of course there are risks (and PTSD is a completely different issue) but be sure the ones who end in a plastic bag because their lack of success in real fights (i.e. legit self defense situations) are not the most productive members of society. Dead people don't work, don't raise children, don't do science and usually (Haiti doesn't count) are not pillars of their community.

Quote:
Which is not to say that "tough training" isn't valuable, just that I think it's important to be clear about exactly what one is trying to achieve, and what the tradeoffs are.
Of course, as long one is not claiming having something he lacks. If someone is not interested in martial skills so be it, the same if someone is not interested in becoming the floating bridge or channeling kami skills.

Quote:
Remember that the most "martially effective" samurai were brutal killers first, and gentlemen and philosophers only after they had eradicated their enemies
I'd rather have prefered you had not brough the romanticised "martially effective" samurai.

Quote:
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. -- Nietzsche
Then let's not take risks. Let the monsters have free reign.

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Old 10-21-2011, 08:31 PM   #1530
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'd rather have prefered you had not brough the romanticised "martially effective" samurai.
I don't think there's anything particularly romantic about killing people. Which is exactly why I brought it up: the original budo was, first and foremost, about killing other people before they killed you. That's what "martially effective" means, when you get right down to it.

Which is why I think pursuing "aikido that works" can be, in its own way, just as delusional as practicing yoga with tumbling and calling it a martial art. What are you really studying, and why?

Katherine
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:46 PM   #1531
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't think there's anything particularly romantic about killing people. Which is exactly why I brought it up: the original budo was, first and foremost, about killing other people before they killed you. That's what "martially effective" means, when you get right down to it.
They killed people with a purpose. Money, land, fame, social stability, survival... They did what had to be done and got paid for it. That's all.

Quote:
Which is why I think pursuing "aikido that works" can be, in its own way, just as delusional as practicing yoga with tumbling and calling it a martial art.
Well, pursuing "aikido that works" can be delusional, calling "yoga with tumbling" a martial art is simply lying.

Quote:
What are you really studying, and why?
Me? Judo, because (long history short) it's fun.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-21-2011 at 08:49 PM.

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Old 10-22-2011, 02:17 AM   #1532
Chris Evans
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Right. No argument there. I'm just questioning the value of the kind of training that prepares you to succeed in fights, specifically, relative to other kinds of "tough training." There's a wide spectrum between "full contact sparring" and "yoga with tumbling." As any competitive athlete knows, you can develop quite a lot of mental toughness without ever getting punched in the face.

Katherine
True enough.

If I was in sales, I'd avoid face punches like the plague (or play BJJ)

In karate & hapkido I've observed that there is a trade off: people avoiding face punches really never learn to keep their hands up, duck & weave, and slip off the line as well as the people open to all kinds of waza and pains.

I'm looking forward to finding an aikido dojo, (not like the last one, years ago, that had too many judgementtal closed minded idealists.)

Thanks again, Katherine.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 10-22-2011, 01:39 PM   #1533
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post

As I previously noted, neither professional fighters nor successful street fighters are generally known for their excellence as human beings. In fact, you could argue that "success" in "real fights" requires a level of viciousness that's not really compatible with life in civilized society.(...)

Which is not to say that "tough training" isn't valuable, just that I think it's important to be clear about exactly what one is trying to achieve, and what the tradeoffs are. Remember that the most "martially effective" samurai were brutal killers first, and gentlemen and philosophers only after they had eradicated their enemies.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you. -- Nietzsche

Katherine
Interesting Kat.

As stated, the world whence this thread originates is a world whose challenge won't be satisfied as long as you (generic "you"), for one valid reason or another, won't kick their asses. That is the only language that world understands. There is not another language that satisfies it.

If you (generic "you") want to discharge karate from an accusation like this, you have to kick ass using karate.
If you (generic "you") want to discharge judo from an accusation like this, you have to kick ass using judo.
And so if you (generic "you") want to discharge aikido from an accusation like this, you have to kick ass using aikido.

So, the answer is one: kick-ass aikido.

Once repeated that just for summarizing's sake -a very simple summary, and yet it's not compex answers what answers simple questions- your argument that meeting viciousness with a "vicious" aikido (whenece "vicious" aikido would be just a way to rephrase kick-ass aikido with your chosen language, but not because I see anything vicious in it) has a startling simply answer as well.

You have to defeat physically evil and viciousness, without becoming a vicious person yourself. This is, indeed, a peak of ethical excellence.

To some degree, it may even be what aiki is all about: budo excellence, capable of meeting evil without being corrupted by evil.

Be like Robin Hood, an Aikido Hood: rob, to implement the good. Fight to implement righteousness, to implement justice. But do fight, do accept the challenge on its ground of election.

Show evil that you can fight evil, accepting its challenge on the physical ground too (because that is precisely the ground upon which evil thinks you can not meet it...), without being contaminated by evil.

Your notorious Nietzsche sentence does not mean that if you stare into the abyss of evil, you will become evil yourself. Rather, you may become terrible. I am not.

In the eternal fight between evil and good, you must become able to stare evil right into the eyes, squarely, and yet unmoved. The asnwer to this accusation is: be like a honourable samurai: terrible with evil, and yet intent on good.

The answer to your observations, Kat, are already given, and stay all in one world: a samurai's world.
In the noblest sense of the word.
I am sure you understand that word, which has been since centuries the answer to your rightful type of doubts.

ps and let's not forget that the Buddha Gautama did not come from a family of brahamins (that is, monks), but from a family of... ksatria (that is: fighters): these folks, quintessential producers of good and liberation, they were... soldiers.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 10-22-2011 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:07 PM   #1534
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

My name is right there at the bottom of my post, Bert. There's no need to guess what I'd like to be called.

*shrug* I just don't see physical ass-kicking as an important skill in our society. The "eternal fight between good and evil" is mostly fought with non-physical weapons these days.

I'm also well aware of the reasons why combat sports have weight classes. At 125 pounds, my chances against any reasonably strong adult male would plummet the instant I started trying to "kick ass" instead of simply escape.

Katherine
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:07 PM   #1535
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Actually, in ancient mythologies we have not one single instance of heroes who weren't skilled warriors too.

It is only beginning with christianity that we developed heroes who weren't martially effective.
Though, one may speculate how much or at least till what degrre this applied to Christ Himself indeed and isn't, instead, a forgery or a misunderstanding of the later christian traditions which emphasized too much the meek side of christianity (indeed, Kat, precisely the type of accusation moved by that very same Nietzsche that you mentioned, who made a distinction between Christ and priests - and curiously enough the same distinction Christ made between himself and the pharisees for instanc ein Luke 11 second part of the chapter)

As a matter of fact: «I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword».

So, do we want a pharisee's Aikido in order to be aiki, or a samurai's Aikido in order to be aiki?
Because both apply.

And it is indeed what makes aikido stands apart: its emphasis on the "gentle" Art, delivers Aikido thoroughly into the hands of the myth of the good hero, of the good fighter, that wants absolute martial effectiveness matched with absolute moral integrity.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:14 PM   #1536
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
My name is right there at the bottom of my post, Bert. There's no need to guess what I'd like to be called.

*shrug* I just don't see physical ass-kicking as an important skill in our society. The "eternal fight between good and evil" is mostly fought with non-physical weapons these days.

I'm also well aware of the reasons why combat sports have weight classes. At 125 pounds, my chances against any reasonably strong adult male would plummet the instant I started trying to "kick ass" instead of simply escape.

Katherine
You can fight evil in many ways.

If you want to satisfy that accusation thrown at aikido, however you have to fight it with aikido.

Size doesn't matter. There was a time when I was younger whence I knew how true it is the old saying that the bigger they are the harder they hit the floor.

If you can run away, run away by all accounts - the world of this accusation implies a setting where you cannot run away.

If Aikido is to be effective and keep its promises, it should enable you to fight any size of opponent - it is, actually, one of its most characteristically implied promises: making size and strength inessential.

If you regularly train in a manner that is martially effective, size won't deter you anymore.

This not to mean you are not right: but only to mean that there exists a level of proficiency (I know this as fact, though I have it no longer - I have seen leather wheights kick heavy weights) where physical size means, indeed, only his butt will hit the mat harder.

You may never come to that point, but let me assure you of one thing: the only chance whoever may have to reach that level (a matter of 2 years, I'd say) is training regularly in a martial context, in our case a randori on steroids.

ps: go figure, in ancient myths, tauromachy with bare hands was the ultimate martial test.
The fact you can be defeated, won't even enter your equation: you will fight anyway.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 10-22-2011 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 10-22-2011, 07:00 PM   #1537
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Using Christian arguments in support of your view of a Shinto mystic's art is pretty funny...

If you think size doesn't matter, your training isn't as martially realistic as you think. Certainly skill can help offset a size disadvantage, but only to a degree.

Katherine
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Old 10-22-2011, 07:36 PM   #1538
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Using Christian arguments in support of your view of a Shinto mystic's art is pretty funny...
Kirisuto ga ‘hajme ni kotoba ariki' to itta sono kotodama ga SU de arimasu. Sore ga kotodama no hajimari de aru.

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Old 10-22-2011, 11:23 PM   #1539
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Kirisuto ga ‘hajme ni kotoba ariki' to itta sono kotodama ga SU de arimasu. Sore ga kotodama no hajimari de aru.
It's one thing to equate SU with the Divine Word, both having existed at The Beginning. Quite another to build your argument about the goals of aikido around a particular (somewhat controversial) verse in the Christian Bible.

Katherine
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:31 PM   #1540
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Using Christian arguments in support of your view of a Shinto mystic's art is pretty funny...

If you think size doesn't matter, your training isn't as martially realistic as you think. Certainly skill can help offset a size disadvantage, but only to a degree.

Katherine
I can assure you that size does not matter in the least.

This, should sound reassuring to you actually. You seem to address me as if I am somebody intent on attacking you, whereas I am saying the contrary namely that I appreciated your previous posts (I loved your Nietzsche's quote) and that your doubts have a solution. Sorry if this sounded to you like contradicting you.
Funny how difficult it is, on forums, to flag an agreement as such. It may be met as the opposite (or so) all too easily.

Actually, you can say you have attained martiality exactly when you know with finality this: size means nothing.

Size, in fact, is something that one may think plays a role (and indeed, till that moment it does play a role) only as long as one is not accustomed to deal with violent settings (plus safety measures as I stated earlier, because of course training cannot be realistic to the point of inflicting actual wounds or injuries) as routine work out. Once accustomed with that, believe me, size means nothing. Utterly, truly, totally nothing.

You have, in fact, two types of martial realisms: the one of the person who never trained with uncomplacent and "brutal" settings, and this person will believe that size matters; then the other of a training where violence (with safety measures) is standard randori: in this latter case, it is only a matter of time before you realize that you can throw 200 pound guys.
Oh if you can throw them!

Once you get confident with that by seeing you can do that, size won't deter you anymore.

It is a matter of training. If your training constantly permits to you to confront size, size won't be an issue anymore. But if your training is not geared to let you build confidence in that direction, you will never find that confidence.
It all depends on how one trains - this is why I put emphasis on randori on steroids as the solution to this thread's accusations.

ps I was not using christian arguments - you quoted Nietzsche, I was simply crediting you were acquainted with his philosophical themes, which all revolve around a revision of christianity that Nietzsche (not me) assumed as something that injected too much weakness into mankind - particularly when compared with the infinitely more "martial" heritage of the ancient Greek concept of arete (the typical reference is, in these cases and customarily, Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy).
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:48 PM   #1541
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Alberto,

If she (or anyone) doesn't want martial effectivenes, why do you care?

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Old 10-23-2011, 03:15 PM   #1542
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Alberto,

If she (or anyone) doesn't want martial effectivenes, why do you care?
I don't care in fact.

As said, mine is not a crusade. On forums, one may take the opportunity of answering a post, that by venture is posted by a specific person, but we must keep all in the perspective of us dealing with a global forum: we, and me, are not actually replying to that or that specific person (even regardless of the fact at times it seems so - we're actually addressing the argument, not the person), we're addressing the topic.

Here I wasn't really addressing this or that person, but the thread's argument - which then may develop in several directions all pertinent with the general topic (in our case, that aikido does not work).

So, I am not saying to Kat that she should do this or that: she does what she wants.

Rather, I am taking the opportunity of her objection to treat it as a general objection - being this, in this case, that size would matter.

Therefore I reply that size does not matter: the example of boxing categories was brought forth (again by katherine, but as said I use posts only as thoughts to elaborate and not to be regarded as strctly linked to their authors).
In this regard, take a feather weight with a few years of experience on his shoulders (or under his belt) and make him fight with a heavy weight with no boxing experience: you will witness one of the soundest, hopeless and one-way beating you will ever see, and it won't be the heavy guy who will be delivering it...

What other example could be brought, clearer than this, to signify that size does not matter, but that only training does?

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 10-23-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 03:43 PM   #1543
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

ps for instance, without awaiting for a person to object it, so to show we're actually addressing a topic and not characters: what about boxing categories arranged by weights, that is: once boxers are competent, they are arranged by weight categories - does that mean that size matters?

The answer is: no.

Aside from the fact that many boxing categories have been placed there only in order to multiply belts (more categories, more belts; more belts more championships; more championships more bets; more bets, more money; more money, more big business...) - think of the class spuriously added between the middle wieghts and the heavy weights, which appeared totally unnecessary.

However, there is no real reason because a super-light weight could not confront (and also beat) a middle weight - and there are as many as 4 categories in between. By all account, a welter may beat up a middle weight.

The arrangement has been devised to make sure the contest can begin being confident beyond any reasonable doubt that only training comes in the way as discriminant factor. That amounts to saying that size may play a role (take two guys trained both at level 10, then size may play a minor role) - and categories want to be sure only ohter factors are thrown in.

But between boxing categories there are at times only 4kgs: do we seriously believe that 4 kgs (8 lbs) will make any real difference?

So categories should not be misunderstood in the sense size plays THE role. A good fighter, with great experience , with great heart ( that is, capable of taking punishment without getting scared), with stamina, will beat easily guys 100lbs heavier even if they are well trained, provided a variety of factors like, for instance, that they have a glass jaw... or that they may run short of breath faster... or that they are much slower on feet... there are many strategies you can arrange, right on the spot, while on the ring in order to leverage on your strong assets and exploit the weak spots detected in your foe regardless of his size.

In our case, the case of Aikido, the promise of making size totally irrelevant is, besides, one of our typical tenets: if our aikido is deterred by size, it's not living up to its promises. Which isn't aikido's fault, but only of the chosen type of training.

This does not address this or that person; does not predicate that one should train in this or that manner, or with randori on steroids.

This only means that you may achieve whatever goal you may set for yourself, provided you are allowed to train accordingly and consistently with the chosen goal.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 10-23-2011 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 05:43 PM   #1544
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Alberto,

If she (or anyone) doesn't want martial effectivenes, why do you care?
[Ed: image deleted as requested by original poster as it does not show up on browsers as expected.]

Last edited by akiy : 10-23-2011 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Image deleted
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:06 PM   #1545
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

#1542
no better answer since the image doesn't show up LOL

was that image perhaps abput something from this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg
to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKkay...eature=related

:-D
joking, just having fun this moment

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 10-23-2011 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:50 PM   #1546
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
I can assure you that size does not matter in the least.

This, should sound reassuring to you actually. You seem to address me as if I am somebody intent on attacking you, whereas I am saying the contrary namely that I appreciated your previous posts (I loved your Nietzsche's quote) and that your doubts have a solution. Sorry if this sounded to you like contradicting you.
Funny how difficult it is, on forums, to flag an agreement as such. It may be met as the opposite (or so) all too easily.

Actually, you can say you have attained martiality exactly when you know with finality this: size means nothing.

Size, in fact, is something that one may think plays a role (and indeed, till that moment it does play a role) only as long as one is not accustomed to deal with violent settings (plus safety measures as I stated earlier, because of course training cannot be realistic to the point of inflicting actual wounds or injuries) as routine work out. Once accustomed with that, believe me, size means nothing. Utterly, truly, totally nothing.

You have, in fact, two types of martial realisms: the one of the person who never trained with uncomplacent and "brutal" settings, and this person will believe that size matters; then the other of a training where violence (with safety measures) is standard randori: in this latter case, it is only a matter of time before you realize that you can throw 200 pound guys.
Oh if you can throw them!

Once you get confident with that by seeing you can do that, size won't deter you anymore.

It is a matter of training. If your training constantly permits to you to confront size, size won't be an issue anymore. But if your training is not geared to let you build confidence in that direction, you will never find that confidence.
It all depends on how one trains - this is why I put emphasis on randori on steroids as the solution to this thread's accusations.

ps I was not using christian arguments - you quoted Nietzsche, I was simply crediting you were acquainted with his philosophical themes, which all revolve around a revision of christianity that Nietzsche (not me) assumed as something that injected too much weakness into mankind - particularly when compared with the infinitely more "martial" heritage of the ancient Greek concept of arete (the typical reference is, in these cases and customarily, Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy).
Dear Alberto,
Hate to say this Alberto but you theory is nonsense.All things being equal a bigger guy will win.Has any little guy ever won the 100 metres nowadays in sprinting?Could a flyweight boxer beat Mike Tyson in his prime?No way Jose.Get real. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:13 PM   #1547
kewms
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I certainly agree that it is possible to apply aikido effectively against larger people. I do it all the time.

But I think you're deluded if you don't think size matters in the context of "on the street" encounters with people who are seriously trying to hurt you.

Under dojo randori conditions, my experience is that when two people have equal skill/rank, a weight difference of 30-40 pounds or so is sufficient to secure a strong advantage for the heavier person. Each additional 30-40 pounds is sufficient to overcome a 2-3 step differential in rank, at least in the mid-kyu to mid-dan range. (Keep in mind that most adult males will outweigh me by at least 40 pounds, and even a 100# difference does not put us into the realm of genetic freaks. I have a lot of experience in this sort of situation.)

However, the lighter person can substantially improve the situation *if* they avoid situations conducive to grappling: I can throw or otherwise disengage from a much larger person than I can pin. So the lessons I take from this are:
* Disengage and get out of there. Trying to kick someone's ass is really dumb.
* Stay aware. It's easier to disengage if they never get a secure grab in the first place.
* Don't get cute. Simple techniques and big muscle movements. Fine motor coordination is very difficult in the middle of an adrenaline dump.

Katherine
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:19 PM   #1548
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 994
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

In the boxing example, what happens when the heavyweight responds to the beating he's getting by trying to clinch with the little guy?

Oh, right. The referee breaks it up.

There aren't any referees on the street. So the big guy drops his shoulder and just plain shoves the little guy into the nearest wall or car. Oops.

Katherine
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:31 PM   #1549
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Alberto,
Hate to say this Alberto but you theory is nonsense.All things being equal a bigger guy will win.Has any little guy ever won the 100 metres nowadays in sprinting?Could a flyweight boxer beat Mike Tyson in his prime?No way Jose.Get real. Cheers, Joe.
Joe, it's not a theory. I know what I am saying here.
I normally try not to mention again the fact I have a boxing background - by which I mean an agonistic background (that is, not just hitting a punching bag).

So, I bring that about here only once again simply in order to emphasize and prove that it's not a theory came out of delusional thinking, but from a past of active boxing.

If the mere fact a guy is bigger than you would mean the bigger guy is bound to win, then judging from the boxing categories a welter weight should never fight with a superwelter because there are about 8 pounds of difference between classes, and since size matters those 8 pounds would dictate the outcome. After all, aren't boxing classes separating weights?
So if you weight 4 kilos more than me, you'd beat me automatically...

I can assure you that an experienced boxer who weights 135 pounds may beat up badly, severely, in a no-contest and unilateral serious beating whatever guy who is 250 pounds and has no boxing experience. As a fact, not as a theory.

And equating experience, I can tell you I have seen with my own eyes (you have to trust me here) a feather weight breaking the nose of middle weights during a sparring work out. This not to mention how many welters I have seen sparring successfully with heavy weights.

If you want to beat bigger guys, you have to train in a manner consistent with that goal. If you never do, you never will. But if you do, you do.

It is not size what makes a difference - only training methods make a difference (or a gun...).

ps little guy who won 100 and 200 meters: Pietro Mennea

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 10-23-2011 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:35 PM   #1550
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
In the boxing example, what happens when the heavyweight responds to the beating he's getting by trying to clinch with the little guy?

Oh, right. The referee breaks it up.

There aren't any referees on the street. So the big guy drops his shoulder and just plain shoves the little guy into the nearest wall or car. Oops.

Katherine
As I mentioned, there are strategies. A smaller guy will never let a heavier guy to clinch (but being us in aikido, I am particularly glad if he clinches: he steps into my territory by doing so).

You can do whatever you want, and beat any opponent, if you devise a strategy and train, long enough, accordingly.
You have no limits but those your chosen training imposes to you.
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