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Old 01-25-2003, 12:33 PM   #1
Eric Joyce
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If given a choice...

I was curious. I have been reading many forums and discussing the various similarities (for some disimilarities) between aikido and aikijujutsu. The discussions have ranged from the underlying philosophies to technical applications from practical applications of self defense to harmonization and spirituality. The question I pose is...if given a choice to practice aikido or aikijujutsu, which one would you choose. If this discussion item has been done to death, please forgive me. I would be interested in the reasons why one would choose one over the other. I will pose this same question in other forums as well. Thanks.
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Old 01-25-2003, 02:34 PM   #2
mattholmes
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I studied other forms of martial arts for about two years before starting formal aikido instruction. It was an intense program, and I logged something like 1200 mat-hours. I feel confident that I am as good at "fighting" as I ever want to be without something more to back it up. I started training in aikido because I wished to learn how to choose to not hurt someone, and now I continue to train because I want to learn how to help people. For me, aikido supplements my other fighting styles, physically. However, my other fighting experience only supplements my aikido on a moral level.

I would not want to study aikijutsu for any significant period. I, as I said already, am a decent fighter. I continue my training to learn something else. However, I think it might be an excellent idea for aikidoka (or prospective aikidoka) to train in an aikijutsu school for a while to help build a solid martial foundation.

Hope this helps to answer your questions.

Matt
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Old 01-25-2003, 04:32 PM   #3
Eric Joyce
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Thanks for the feedback Matt.
Quote:
Matt Holmes (mattholmes) wrote:
I studied other forms of martial arts for about two years before starting formal aikido instruction. It was an intense program, and I logged something like 1200 mat-hours. I feel confident that I am as good at "fighting" as I ever want to be without something more to back it up. I started training in aikido because I wished to learn how to choose to not hurt someone, and now I continue to train because I want to learn how to help people. For me, aikido supplements my other fighting styles, physically. However, my other fighting experience only supplements my aikido on a moral level.

I would not want to study aikijutsu for any significant period. I, as I said already, am a decent fighter. I continue my training to learn something else. However, I think it might be an excellent idea for aikidoka (or prospective aikidoka) to train in an aikijutsu school for a while to help build a solid martial foundation.

Hope this helps to answer your questions.

Matt
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Old 01-26-2003, 02:50 AM   #4
Kelly Allen
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Re: If given a choice...

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
The question I pose is...if given a choice to practice aikido or aikijujutsu, which one would you choose.
O'Sensie was originally trained in Aikijujutsu, Jojutsu, Kenjustsu, and a number of other deadly martial arts. Aikido was develope from alot of these arts. The difference is, however, Aikijujutsu was developed as a waring art. It is designed to win in battle (that means kill your opponent folks). Where as Aikido was designed to control aggression with love and careing for the aggressor. Don't get me wrong though! Thats not to say one cannot harm another using Aikido technics. However, if this is done it is no longer Aikido, because Aikido is more than just preforming a technic. It is the frame of mind you are in when preforming the technic. That being said, that doesn't mean you can't train in Aikijujutsu and not use it with an Aikido frame of mind. After all Moriehia Ueshiba did just that.
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Old 01-26-2003, 03:44 AM   #5
opherdonchin
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I think that, given a choice, I would choose by the teacher.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 01-26-2003, 06:48 AM   #6
erikmenzel
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I kind of do not understand this question.

Of course it is true that people that start often do not have a choice. Hardly anyone starts doing aikijitsu, shodokan aikido or aikikai aikido by choice. Beginners just lack the knowledge and experience to even understand and/or appreciate the differences. They just walk in the dojo and start with wathever the dojo is offering.

Experienced people have a choice, every day of their life. Do what you are doing or do something else/new. Even by not choosing you are making a choice.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 01-26-2003, 04:58 PM   #7
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Re: If given a choice...

Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
O'Sensie was originally trained in Aikijujutsu, Jojutsu, Kenjustsu, and a number of other deadly martial arts.
Deadly martial art I hope you are kidding...In Daito ryu uke is not resisting at all! How many dead head fall down each time in jojutsu or kenjutsu training?

Men, first THINK, use your head, then write.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 01-26-2003, 05:09 PM   #8
Greg Jennings
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Re: Re: If given a choice...

Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
O'Sensie [sic] was originally trained in Aikijujutsu, Jojutsu, Kenjustsu [sic], and a number of other deadly martial arts.
While The Founder did train some in other arts, his only serious training was in Daito Ryu.

Get Stan Pranin's "Daito Ryu and Omotokyo: The Two Pillars of Aikido" lecture. I believe it's available only on audio tape.

Sincerely,

Greg Jennings
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Old 01-26-2003, 10:51 PM   #9
TomanGaidin
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Just out of curiosity... I've heard of Daito Ryu referred to in different ways. Some say it's gentle and has little resistance, whereas others say it was a battlefield art... and there was one interview on aikidojournal with - I think - one of Takeda's sons, or at least a relative, who was going on about knee pins and chopping off heads. Doesn't sound too peaceful . So, which 'type' was taught by Takeda? As I'm guessing it's much like Aikido, in that same schools of it teach 'hard'/martial styles whilst others are 'softer', etc.
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Old 01-26-2003, 11:48 PM   #10
Edward
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Well, let's put this way. DR is a ferocious martial art. If you apply the techniques hardly on your uke, you will run out of uke very soon. That's why they practice very softly, and no resistance is allowed.
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Old 01-27-2003, 12:44 AM   #11
PeterR
 
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Very good point Erik but there is a lot on offer out there even in close proximity. Most people do look around at least a little bit and CHOOSE what feels right for them. Even raw beginners.

I am of course talking about everything under the sun from Korean, Japanese Chinese, Western, etc.

Still it is amazing how ones initial ideas/fantasies change with a bit of experience.

The advice to the original poster is look around, watch a class and then start training. Where you start is rarely where you end up.
Quote:
Erik Jurrien Knoops (erikknoops) wrote:
I kind of do not understand this question.

Of course it is true that people that start often do not have a choice. Hardly anyone starts doing aikijitsu, shodokan aikido or aikikai aikido by choice. Beginners just lack the knowledge and experience to even understand and/or appreciate the differences. They just walk in the dojo and start with wathever the dojo is offering.

Experienced people have a choice, every day of their life. Do what you are doing or do something else/new. Even by not choosing you are making a choice.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-01-2003, 05:46 AM   #12
Kelly Allen
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Re: Re: Re: If given a choice...

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk (NagaBaba) wrote:
Deadly martial art I hope you are kidding...In Daito ryu uke is not resisting at all! How many dead head fall down each time in jojutsu or kenjutsu training?

Men, first THINK, use your head, then write.
My guess is that you didn't understand the comment because your not very fluent in english. Next time think first, then quote, then reply using some semblance of sentance structure.
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Old 02-01-2003, 06:23 AM   #13
Kelly Allen
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Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
While The Founder did train some in other arts, his only serious training was in Daito Ryu.

Get Stan Pranin's "Daito Ryu and Omotokyo: The Two Pillars of Aikido" lecture. I believe it's available only on audio tape.

Sincerely,
The first point I was trying to make was that Morihia Uyeshiba was a true Samari (in every traditional sense) And he trained as such. Meaning he trained seriously in all the Martial Arts. As a Samari he trained as a warrior. (To kill for those who don't get it). later in life he developed from these arts his own Aikido, which he designed to control aggression. If Aikido is used in a way in which it causes unnecessary harm to the aggressor then it is no longer Aikido.

Which brings us back to the original question. What's the difference between Aikido and Jujitu. When Jujitsu is used to harm some one it is still Jujitsu. When Aikido is used to arm someone it is not Aikido. Aikido is not an Art, it is a way (Do) of peace and harmony, that is developed through the technics. Yes even with an aggressor.

So if you choose to study Jujitsu and never hurt anyone (intentionally) whether that someone is an attacker or not. Then you are also studying Aikido.
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Old 02-01-2003, 07:34 AM   #14
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Kelly Allen wrote:
The first point I was trying to make was that Morihia Uyeshiba was a true Samari (in every traditional sense)
Well in the most traditional sense he wasn't. With very rare exceptions you had to be born a samurai.
Quote:
And he trained as such. Meaning he trained seriously in all the Martial Arts. As a Samari he trained as a warrior. (To kill for those who don't get it).
Well no. There are many he did not touch, some he only tasted and one, from most accounts, he became quite skilled at. At the time he arrived in Ayabe I heard he was a fearsome piece of work. His outlook did change overtime granted but your ideas of do and jujutsu are shallow to say the least.

All the jujutsu ryuha consider themselves Budo. We also have kendo, kyudo, judo, jodo. All are Do, all have the potential like Aikido to be lethal. Talk to a Daito Ryu practitioner and they will tell you that the goals are not that different from Aikido - at least the Aikido that I study.

So what is the difference between jujutsu and Aikido. There is variation in technique and philosophy but not enough to drive me one way or the other. I found a teacher, he happens to call what he does Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-01-2003, 08:51 AM   #15
Paula Lydon
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Question

Good question...If there was as qualified an Aikijujitsu teacher in my area as there is in Aikido, then it would be very tempting to me as I came to Aikido from years of jujitsu. Ultimately, though, there is something in Aikido that works powerfully on me inside and whereas the Aikijujitsu--for me at this point--would be the easier path I believe I would remain with Aikido.

~~Paula~~
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Old 02-01-2003, 09:13 AM   #16
PeterR
 
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Ultimately Paula it's what speaks to your heart - and that comes from what's close at hand. An inspiring teacher, good dojo mates, a convenient pub, all far more important than a distant ideal. Not to say that distant ideals don't have their place but ask a soldier who he was fighting for when push came to shove.

Some of my favorite Tomiki people are in Boulder - I here you lot will have a chance to train with Tanaka sensei at an Aikido summit?. If only I could be as energetic when I get to be his age.
Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
Good question...If there was as qualified an Aikijujitsu teacher in my area as there is in Aikido, then it would be very tempting to me as I came to Aikido from years of jujitsu. Ultimately, though, there is something in Aikido that works powerfully on me inside and whereas the Aikijujitsu--for me at this point--would be the easier path I believe I would remain with Aikido.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 02-01-2003, 01:40 PM   #17
jimvance
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Quote:
Peter wrote:
Well in the most traditional sense he wasn't. With very rare exceptions you had to be born a samurai.
Quite right. Actually, after 1868, "samurai" no longer formally existed, as the class hierarchy that had ruled Japan for several hundred years was abolished. The only place you could see them after the Meiji Restoration was in television or movies.

Morihei Ueshiba was born in 1883, which would have disallowed any connection to samurai outside of pure myth. He was the son of a moderately wealthy merchant family with ties (through his mother if I am not mistaken) to the samurai class.

Makes me chuckle when I see how much misinformation is out there. I would have loved to meet O-Sensei just to see who he really was, or at least through my own "filter" directly.

Jim Vance
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Old 02-02-2003, 12:40 AM   #18
Kelly Allen
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I stand corrected

I stand corrected! But aside from the Samari tangent and the what o'sensie studied tangent, my point was missed. I don't know how else to try and put it accross either so I'll respectfully bow out of this discussion because it is beginning to make me feel confrontational, and that is not Aikido. I also re read some of the postings I submitted and I have to also apologize to everyone for my snittyness. It was uncalled for, and again unAikido like. Have a nice day
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