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Old 03-29-2017, 05:55 PM   #1
MrIggy
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"The Future of Aikido"

http://ikazuchi.com/2017/03/28/the-future-of-aikido/

One would think with all the bad rep "modern" Aikido is getting people would be happy it's "dying".
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:48 PM   #2
Aran Bright
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

I was really touched by this video. I recently started BJJ, not because of any dislike of Aikido, but because I wanted to do BJJ. Roy's style of BJJ is just magical, and very effective. If we are to touch on the "effectiveness" of Aikido, I believe this is only because cross training is pretty rare amongst Aikidoka. If you are pretty used to striking and grappling, then Aikido techniques can be used no problem. But this is generally not a goal for Aikidoka, so no problem there.

But the public's views of Aikido and the way Aikidoka see the public's view of Aikido is a problem, one that Roy has stepped up to address. Good on him.

I for one would love to see him on the Joe Rogan Podcast.

Respect to the memory of Stanley Pranin.

http://brisbaneaikido.com

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Old 03-30-2017, 03:59 AM   #3
Cass
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Disclosure that I'm still new-ish to Aikido, but that also means I remember very clearly how it was for me with finding and deciding to undertake Aikido.

Every time Aikido is spoken about "effectiveness" always comes up, it is an endlessly recurring topic which honestly I don't really understand. If you want to destroy someone in a fight then you do not come to Aikido, period. Aikido fills a specific niche combining budo, limited self defense, exercise and learning how to fall safely. There is not another martial art exactly like it and trying to become more like BJJ or Judo or any other martial art to be able to compete in MMA seems foolish to me, imagine if you read the same discussion on a Tai Chi forum. What I would say is that Aikido is not adapting well to the modern market because we do not, as a whole, sell ourselves on appropriate merits. I have seen many videos showing how you will "become samurai" or a guy doing randori on the street as if it is reality. These are things that make people think the art is a joke and "ineffective", because of attempted claims of being situationally viable. What I have not seen? Advertising of how Aikido can expand your social circle, improve your balance, stamina, fludity, flexibility, patience, help overcome depression, give you insight into Japanese culture. In the first years that I became an expat, my health was declining, I had zero social circle, was clumsy, no job, minimal hobbies, bored and my mental health started to decline. I had only a vague interest in Asian culture but if I had known or heard that Aikido could, potentially, fix all of those issues at once? Hell! I deeply regret that I didn't find it back then when I truly needed it.

So we do not play to our strengths and instead focus on our weaknesses and constantly try to "change" how Aikido is. That is why there are so many different offshoots and Aikido is very divided because of it - to be honest there are some styles that if I saw that when I was looking at if I wanted to do it then I might not have even started myself. I was not even convinced before I went to watch a class at my current dojo (online comments were offputting). Making more styles (because never will the entire art conform) will not help. What I would do if I could? Encourage videos showing the camaraderie and bonding that happens among Aikido groups - so your dojo is taking a trip to Japan? Record the best bits, the laughs, not endless irimi nage but the family that you have become. Or make a deal with mental health clinics, advertise that you do a 2-months-free membership for those that are referred from there - in a subtle way, of course. Or perhaps make a charity "Aikido Against Depression" or similar to bring Aikido to those that could truly benefit from it - this could even be another health issue, I have seen and heard of Aikidoka in wheelchairs after all. Do demonstrations at schools, talk about what Aikido's purpose is (to you) and then show them the most impressive "wow!" moves you can and make sure your ukes are having fun too.

Genuine, non-advertising documentaries about Aikido would be great, I have seen maybe 3-4 of these existing at all and they are of varying quality. Yet thousands of videos of demos and hundreds of books, which honestly have limited use for someone thinking about starting Aikido. Movies involving Aikido would be great too, but that is a great deal harder - the closest recent and good movie to Aikido that I have seen is "The Last Samurai" and still, it's not Aikido. These things all make little differences and yes, mostly they will just get you a few more members, but without expansion then yes, Aikido will continue "dying". Some kind of unification of all the different schools and united effort to try something new and modern together is necessary, but I have no idea how you would go about that. The hard part of all of this is united change, Aikido is so far split and in disagreement over, well, anything that getting everyone to agree to take a new approach - either in style, marketing, whatever - is next to impossible.



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Old 03-30-2017, 04:41 AM   #4
grondahl
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

FYI: There are exactly the same discussions on forums for tai chi and other traditional arts.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:14 AM   #5
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
One would think with all the bad rep "modern" Aikido is getting people would be happy it's "dying".
Aikido is not dying, Aikido is being killed by aikidoka themselves.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:33 AM   #6
MattMiddleton
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Aikido is not dying, Aikido is being killed by aikidoka themselves.
How so?
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:47 AM   #7
Alec Corper
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Aikido is not dying, Aikido is being killed by aikidoka themselves.
So are you here to help with the funeral, are you a mourner, a pall bearer, or are you hanging on for the resurrection?

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:10 AM   #8
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Matthew Middleton wrote: View Post
How so?
Politics, poor training methods, poor teaching methods, pseudo-philosophical ramblings, cultish behaviors, abusive behaviors, sub-par martial performance... the list would be too long.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:14 AM   #9
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
So are you here to help with the funeral, are you a mourner, a pall bearer, or are you hanging on for the resurrection?
It saddens me to see Aikido going down. It is an art with a great potential, both martial and self developement.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:18 AM   #10
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9W4Khn078w

Also, I believe this is the Joe Rogan episode article in OP refers to.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:44 AM   #11
MrIggy
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Matthew Middleton wrote: View Post
How so?
Plain and simple, most of them don't train it as a martial art.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:57 AM   #12
Alec Corper
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It saddens me to see Aikido going down. It is an art with a great potential, both martial and self developement.
So you help the process by what, humorous digs, sarcasm, sideline expertise? i think you are probably a serious martial artist but I doubt we will meet, so i have no clue. have you got a fight record, do you roll in BJJ competitions? I have students who are police offers, security guys, BJJ competitors, ex-judo players. Please stop spreading the brush so wide at every godamned opportunity

MrIggy
Quote:
Matthew Middleton wrote: View Post
How so?
Plain and simple, most of them don't train it as a martial art.

And you know this after how long training? I know plenty of people who train it as a martial art. I have also seen quite a few doing poor ju jitsu calling it aikido. The techniques in aikido are simply not unique to aikido and you can apply them ( and people do ) in silat, panatukan, krav maga, kapap, okinawate, and so on. That doesn't make it aikido. I also know guys who are just really good street fighters, they would take apart most martial artists. So what exactly do you want?

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:33 AM   #13
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
So you help the process by what, humorous digs, sarcasm, sideline expertise?
Don't look at me as the cause of Aikido's lost of popularity. Maybe you should look at these people who after decades of training and achieving high ranks were shown how their Aikido was empty of aiki, devoid of martial viability but full of Chopra like new-age platitudes, orientalist bullshit and poor dancing disguised as budo.

Quote:
i think you are probably a serious martial artist but I doubt we will meet, so i have no clue. have you got a fight record, do you roll in BJJ competitions?
I competed in TKD -WTF ruleset- back in the 80's-90's. I don't compete in BJJ events.

Quote:
I have students who are police offers, security guys, BJJ competitors, ex-judo players.
And I have and had the same kind of training partners, what's your point?

Quote:
Please stop spreading the brush so wide at every godamned opportunity
Why?
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:12 AM   #14
MattMiddleton
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

I can't really speak to what's happening elsewhere, but at least in my tiny corner of the world, there seems to be a bit of an uptick in popularity. That being said, it seems like there's a bit of ebb and flow there - we've had good years and bad, in terms of enrollment. While I'm certain none of the various organizations would like to give out stats with regards to enrollment, I think that having that data would help us all in terms of understanding what (if any) problem there is on that front.

As for politics, all social groups of any reasonable size trying to do the "same" thing are going to end up with politics of some kind or another. Why would Aikido be any different? The main thing, IMO, is to try and minimize the negative impact of those politics on bystanders. Not always easy, sometimes not even possible, but a useful goal.

With regards to the martial effectiveness, I suppose I can't really comment. I've only ever practiced Aikido, and have been fortunate enough to work with a variety of teachers. Some of those teachers talked about philosophy and energy, while others focused on the more "hard" aspects of Aikido. In my view, there is value in both, and indeed a time for both. If the only way to "save" Aikido is to make it a hard-only art, I'd be looking for something else myself. I've gotten a lot from all my teachers.

When it comes to training and teaching, this is something I'm quite interested in. While I don't teach Aikido, I'm very curious to study how different teachers do their thing, and what effects it has on their students. I'd love to know more about where things are lacking in the training/teaching side of things. It's helpful to understand the bad habits as well as the good ones
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:54 AM   #15
MrIggy
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
And you know this after how long training?
3 years of official training, 3 years of sporadic training, friendly sparring, meeting people from various dojos's from my country and from abroad on seminars.

Quote:
I know plenty of people who train it as a martial art.
Define plenty?

Quote:
The techniques in aikido are simply not unique to aikido and you can apply them ( and people do ) in silat, panatukan, krav maga, kapap, okinawate, and so on. That doesn't make it aikido.
Yes i know that certain techniques are not unique to Aikido but also certain techniques in those arts have been taken directly from Aikido just as much as certain Japanese martial arts have taken techniques directly from other Asian (and western) martial arts. In some instances it does more harm then good.

Quote:
I also know guys who are just really good street fighters, they would take apart most martial artists. So what exactly do you want?
Like i said most people don't train Aikido as a martial art, the problem however isn't in them, it's in the instructors that tolerate that mentality. When a guy from a certain dojo, who has an official black belt, gets slapped around by some idiot on the street and doesn't fight back at all because he froze from fear then they have a serious issue in that dojo and unfortunately that type of issues isn't unique to that one dojo. I also know a couple of guys, street fighters, who would take apart most martial artist, but i also know that all of those martial artist are on the low level (rank) of training, while the problem in Aikido is, like i stated above, that such incompetence is tolerated to a high degree and even awarded an official Dan rank. What i want is to make a clear distinction between competence and incompetence. That's all.

Last edited by MrIggy : 03-30-2017 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:09 PM   #16
ramenboy
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

i remember chiba sensei saying that aikido is a beautiful art, but we can't forget that its a 'martial' art.

i think it depends on what the practitioner wants to get out of it. better movement? health? martial effectiveness? coordination?

not everyone comes to aikido for the same reasons, and i have to admit i still struggle with that.

do people want to continue doing aikido exactly the way their teacher says o-sensei did it? or have we reached the the stage of ''ri' where you can finally make aikido 'your own?'

hard to say how much aikido is 'dying' if we can't agree on a universal explanation of what aikido is.

practice hard
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:17 PM   #17
philipsmith
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

OK so I've been involved in Aikido for nearly 50 years now. There has never been a simple definition of what it is and it's popularity has ebbed & flowed many times.

I am confident it will survive - but I am aware it is a very broad church. For me it remains a martial art but for some of my close friends it's anything but. I'm fine with that as long as my students retain that martial awareness and effectiveness.

Let's just accept our differences and train.
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Old 03-30-2017, 12:52 PM   #18
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

The future of Aikido is buried in the past yet hidden in plain sight.

Aikido is The Way of Aiki.

It's right there in the name. When people wake up to that simple fact, they will have new direction.

But everyone (99%) is rejecting it because they can't do it.

Think: Monks don't reject Buddhism because they don't 'get it'. Some, many perhaps, never attain their enlightenment. But they continue their search ... it is a search. But modern man wants 'it' explained in a syllabus. Actually, it is possible because aiki is a physical result of physical training.

Ikkyo as waza is no different to ippon-seoinage.

If you are not actively searching for aiki then you are not an Aikidoka.

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Old 03-31-2017, 08:19 AM   #19
MRoh
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Like i said most people don't train Aikido as a martial art
And you do? And how do you prove?
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:46 PM   #20
SeiserL
 
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

I would have to admit that I think that Aikido as an effective martial art (like Tai Chi) is dying or already dead. Like the normal bell-shaped distribution curve or the story of blind men describing different parts of an elephant, perhaps many things depend on the perspective/intent by which one studies Aikido. The point being it may not be if Aikido is dying, but is your practice living and growing?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-31-2017, 04:23 PM   #21
rugwithlegs
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

https://shakiaharris.wordpress.com/2...ll-that-blood/

A Gracie family champion on MMA and what it has done for his family's art. his comments resonate for me as an Aikido student.
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Old 03-31-2017, 04:40 PM   #22
rugwithlegs
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Interesting counter arguement to those who say MMA training is real combat, and that Aikido has nothing to do with combat.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres...experts-2015-8

Of course, I would not do well against these fighters either. Respect.
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Old 03-31-2017, 04:55 PM   #23
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Interesting counter arguement to those who say MMA training is real combat, and that Aikido has nothing to do with combat.
I think I'm missing something. Do you mean Aikido practitioners would have fared better than the MMA players in that environment?
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Old 03-31-2017, 05:02 PM   #24
rugwithlegs
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I think I'm missing something. Do you mean Aikido practitioners would have fared better than the MMA players in that environment?
I clearly said I would not fair better. But, weapons work bearing some resemblance to jodori and kumijo, two on one, some recognizable tantodori.

More that I keep getting told that for Aikido to be more realistic and more combat ready, we need to imitate MMA. MMA is not the pinnacle or an undefeatable combat art.

If we want to be more combat ready, maybe MMA is not the art we should compare ourselves to.
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Old 03-31-2017, 05:15 PM   #25
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The Future of Aikido"

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
If we want to be more combat ready, maybe MMA is not the art we should compare ourselves to.
I agree with you on this. IMO is with arts developed in armed cultures where Aikido sould be compared, for instance with Filipino Martial Arts like in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjAkbQb6axU
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