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Old 08-12-2002, 03:27 PM   #1
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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Voice of Experience?

I was reviewing the new thread, the voice of experience, and with the cap of twenty years of experience in Aikido, it would seem to make it a little club of oldtimers who have allowed the lesser of us who have not been in practice for twenty years to listen in to sage, learned advice.

Could be. But most of the replys I have seen are totally lacking in understanding to combine the sounds of movement, found in kotodama, with the insight of rooting and iron body, or bring to our eyes the existence of Aikido's more deadly aspects that we learn if we go outside of Aikido training, but leave out in Aikido training.

Is the voice of experience an attempt to keep the magicians secret a secret, or in the voice of experience merely a bluff because they just don't know the answer?

I may be considered a radical because I stress knowledge, but practice within safe limits of Aikido's tenents. Still, is there a blanket of fear that covers advice to look out side of Aikido, or is it merely the voice of the maintaining the status quo?
 
Old 08-12-2002, 03:54 PM   #2
Andy
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Poll: What is Bruce's motivation for his post?

1) He's heartbroken that he can't participate in aikido discussions with people with decades more of experience than he does.

2) He's trolling like usual.

3) He likes to hear himself talk as it makes him seem more important than he really is in life.

4) He's pissing into the wind.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS: Do you want to ignore Bruce Baker? Click here. 23 users can't be wrong.
 
Old 08-12-2002, 04:07 PM   #3
rachmass
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Yes, his thread made me feel quite angry (and sad that he would attack as such) too. I for one am happy to hear what the VOE has to say, and to keep it restricted to those with the experience. It can be a valuable forum for all of us. So far it hasn't really gotten off the ground, maybe one of the VOE people can make a comment as to Mr. Bakers post.

 
Old 08-12-2002, 04:22 PM   #4
Kevin Leavitt
 
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interesting concept.

I was reading the post on Kotodama and was excited to see something of a "higher" topic than some of the post we see in the other threads.

I am interested to see what they discuss and what I can learn from it.

Then I was thinking, I would love to participate and ask questions. Isn't that the whole purpose of this list is to teach and learn from each other?

I was also thinking. 20 years experience in Aikido is fine, but I have 20 years of knowledge in things as well, even though it may not be in "aikido". I have about 20 years experience in "budo" both as a career soldier in the military and as a 10 year martial artist and about 15 years in philosophy. With only 6 years experience in Aikido..why does this make me less qualified to have an opinion on the same subjects?

Why put a fence around knowledge only created through Aikido? Is kinda like keeping the gene pool limited.

I can certainly appreciate what is trying to be done with it, and I sincerely hope that it will encourage our senior members to contribute things of value to the community.

I think we should also consider that it could become a "clubby good ole boy" environment where they pat each other on the back without critique from us "less experienced" persons.

I have seen this happen in a few dojos, especially when they have a reputation to uphold. You know the type, will only work with "approved ukes" who know their magic, surround themselves with things that insulate them from the world, etc.

I am not trying to bash the idea, Actually I welcome it....just another perspective to consider!

I would like to learn more about the kotodama, in fact last night I dusted off my Bill Gleason book and started reading it again.

Maybe we can all read what they write and then start other threads that discuss the thread!

 
Old 08-12-2002, 04:30 PM   #5
rachmass
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Hi Kevin,

you do have a lot of experience and I am sure have a very valid point in wanting to share it. I think Jun just had to make some cut-off as to what would constitute this group, and I am sure it isn't meant to be elitist or anything. I would love to participate in the group (although nothing has come up that I have any contribution to), but alas, even after being an active aikidoka since 1982, had a kid and took off two years....

I am sure that many of us have a lot to say and contribute, and the rest of the forums are open to us.

A suggestion: when one of the VOE threads start, why not just run a thread that the rest of us can participate in, in parallel to this group.
 
Old 08-12-2002, 05:27 PM   #6
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
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I would surmise the reason the VOE section was included in the forums was so that such experienced individuals could share comments and ideas without having to deal with uninformed weenies posting irrelevant nonsense. (I'm not being cynical - I'm not going to dig up examples from this site, but I remember a cosmology site where a group of cosmologists were discussing the possibility of extraterrestrial life. The thread was almost impossible to follow, with the hordes of people writing in to add their 2 cents about how Government was taken over by hostile aliens and about the 'real' reason for crop circles...not very valid, but very vocal.)I have no problem with it therefore; I'd like to see what they come up with, but I do have 2 conditions:

1) I believe that since that forum is there, those allowed to post in it have a responsibility to the rest of us to provide information and insight worthy of their years - simply using it as a private club should be actively discouraged.

2) Posters to the VOE board should be willing and prepared to discuss the ideas and opinions expressed on the board with the rest of us in open forum as well. Kevin's right; less experienced folk have valuable ideas as well, and should have a way to express them.

Perhaps, if one is reading the VOE board and has a comment he/she would like to make, he could start a thread entitled: "disagreement to a VOE point", or some such.

Just my opinion, thanx!

Dave

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
 
Old 08-12-2002, 05:54 PM   #7
Steven
 
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So .. two snakes were crawling down the road. One asked the other "Are we poisonious?". The other replied "I don't know, why do you ask?". The first snake replied "Because I just bit my lip!" *** rim shot ***

Oh wait ... sorry ... wrong thread ... :\
Quote:
Perhaps, if one is reading the VOE board and has a comment he/she would like to make, he could start a thread entitled: "disagreement to a VOE point", or some such.
I think this is acceptable. Nothing wrong with starting an open sub-form to the VOE forum as along as everyone understands the VOE poster has the right not to anwer should he/she decide not to. I would highly discourage that, but it is their right.

Let's keep it civil and mind our manners and I think it'll all work just fine.

Heiwa ...
 
Old 08-12-2002, 06:23 PM   #8
jeda
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Where I work, I deal with a membership base on a regular basis. There is your standard $50 membership that buys you admission, a smile and a thank you. Then there's our $100 membership that is going to get you a bit more butt kissing from our staff.

Keep reading, I have a point.

So at our annual member's night, the $100 level membership receives their exclusive lounge that has a few more activities in it - music, a clown, some story tellers etc etc.

Of course, the day after member's night, there are several complaints from the $50 members that they couldn't participate in the extra activities. Cry me a river, put a bit more gently, was our response.

I see this situation in the same light. I don't have a lot of experience and 90% of the time, I don't have anything great to say. Having 20 or more years of experience may not make you the cream of the crop, but it makes you more experienced.

As for making the exclusivity at 20 years in aikido, Jun is right for setting a limit. I've got 22 years experiece at being a girl, but you don't hear me crying that I don't have my own forum.

You feel you may be well over qualified to participate, but the fact of the matter is, it isn't up to you to decide. The parameters have been set, and if you don't fit quite yet get over it.

My apologies if I offend anyone. I get tired of people whining when they don't meet the guidelines and people who make exceptions simply to shut them up. What can I say, I'm jaded by our membership program.
 
Old 08-12-2002, 07:41 PM   #9
Mike Collins
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I kind of like the idea of one area where "pissing contests" will probably be minimized. It'll sure be interesting to see if they're any more civilized than we who are less experienced.
 
Old 08-12-2002, 08:04 PM   #10
PeterR
 
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I love to debate, discuss, poke and prod. I would ask a question of my seniors and half way through say "sure but". Finally one of the sensei clearly said "its not about but - sometimes you should just listen".

A few points.

Everyone has an opinion whether they have value or not is another matter.

Everyone thinks their opinion is as valuable as everyone elses.

20 years does not mean you have a clue to what your talking about but it sure increases the odds.

Disagree with something in VOE - well start a new thread.

I'ld like people to notice that the list maintainer set the bar above his own experience. Good enough for Jun, good enough for me.

Really not sure if the VOE forum will go anywhere - I think 20 years is a bit limiting. Then again it is not up to me.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 08-12-2002, 08:05 PM   #11
guest1234
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Hey, we've got the 'executive' lounge right here: Music is the fellow who occasionally posts such interesting poetry; story-telling, hmmm, I think I'd go with that fellow who worships Pumpkins; and clowns! well, there's me , and perhaps one other member most of us could name!
 
Old 08-12-2002, 09:25 PM   #12
virginia_kyu
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Arlington, Virginia
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Quote:
Andy Russo (Andy) wrote:
Poll: What is Bruce's motivation for his post?

1) He's heartbroken that he can't participate in aikido discussions with people with decades more of experience than he does.

2) He's trolling like usual.

3) He likes to hear himself talk as it makes him seem more important than he really is in life.

4) He's pissing into the wind.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS: Do you want to ignore Bruce Baker? Click here. 23 users can't be wrong.
After reading Bruce's thread named "Jesus is dead, think for yourself" and many jackass posts like it, I have to say that #2 and #3 suit him well. I am also going to add him to my ignore list.

Last edited by virginia_kyu : 08-12-2002 at 09:45 PM.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 08-12-2002, 10:06 PM   #13
MaylandL
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Quote:
Rachel Massey (rachmass) wrote:
...

I am sure that many of us have a lot to say and contribute, and the rest of the forums are open to us.

A suggestion: when one of the VOE threads start, why not just run a thread that the rest of us can participate in, in parallel to this group.
Sounds like a plan to me and inviting the commentators on the VOE thread to add their responses.

Some of their comments would certainly merit further reflection and consideration.

Happy training all

Mayland
 
Old 08-12-2002, 10:24 PM   #14
rachmass
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In reading the posts that are occuring on the VOE forum right now, I see an excellent example of a discussion without rancour. The participants may not necessarily agree with each other in all points, but they are respectful of each others opinions, and put forth their own in a detailed yet polite manner. I am very happy to see this forum start to pick up some momentum, and hope to see it blossom in the future. It was a great idea of Juns to have something like this, and we all owe him our thanks.
 
Old 08-12-2002, 10:26 PM   #15
Mares
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I think that forum is a great idea. From my point of view it allows me to read some serious threads without the cluter. So far there has only been one thread and I learnt something from each post in it, how about that a 100% strike rate. For that I thank the two posters Chris and Chuck and I hope you both continue to post and provide your insights into Aikido.

For those who don't agree with the forum, you do not have to read it. And please don't spoil it for the rest of us, please let them post so we can continue to learn, without the clutter.

Regards
 
Old 08-13-2002, 04:31 AM   #16
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
Andy Russo (Andy) wrote:
Poll: What is Bruce's motivation for his post?

1) He's heartbroken that he can't participate in aikido discussions with people with decades more of experience than he does.

2) He's trolling like usual.

3) He likes to hear himself talk as it makes him seem more important than he really is in life.

4) He's pissing into the wind.

~~~~~~~~~~

PS: Do you want to ignore Bruce Baker? Click here. 23 users can't be wrong.
Hey, I don't like the guy any more than anyone else, but keep in mind: whether or not we like the post or poster, he has the same right to express his opinions as anyone else, so long as those opinions are not directly offensive to others. His posts are not, to be precise, directly offensive, just concieted and pompous. Keep in mind as well that he may not be aware that his posts are being taken as such, but even if he is, using the 'Ignore' feature is poor judgement; we can learn a lot from others' failings; most notably how to spot and avoid such failings in ourselves.

Or at least, you can get a good laugh out of it.

Whatever the case, I don't believe its appropriate to directly ridicule another member, whomever he may be.

Dave

Last edited by DaveO : 08-13-2002 at 04:52 AM.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
 
Old 08-13-2002, 04:40 AM   #17
mike lee
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Cool the heat is on

Maybe Chis Li couldn't take the heat, so he found a way to get out of the kitchen.

Living in anger

Living in constant rage

Living in a cage
 
Old 08-13-2002, 04:52 AM   #18
PeterR
 
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Re: the heat is on

Ah ha - do I detect a conspiracy.
Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Maybe Chis Li couldn't take the heat, so he found a way to get out of the kitchen.

Living in anger

Living in constant rage

Living in a cage

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 08-13-2002, 05:57 AM   #19
guest1234
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There are those I fairly regularly disagree with--those I wouldn't use 'ignore' on---but when some border on public announcements of paranoid psychosis, I notify those I think should know, and then officially stop listening. I for one do not want to have to worry about any legal responsibility if something were to happen.
 
Old 08-13-2002, 06:22 AM   #20
Jim ashby
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One thing I would say is that there are those people that, if there is a club which they can't join, say "didn't want to play anyway". I will participate in the VOE forum.......in about eight years time. Until then I will read what is posted on the forum, digest it and make up my own mind about what I have read.

BTW Bruce isn't on my ignore list, I need a laugh every now and then.

Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
 
Old 08-13-2002, 06:46 AM   #21
mike lee
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Cool the false assumption club

ASSUME: To do so makes an ASS out of U and ME.
 
Old 08-13-2002, 06:47 AM   #22
Chris Li
 
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Re: the heat is on

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
Maybe Chis Li couldn't take the heat, so he found a way to get out of the kitchen.

Living in anger

Living in constant rage

Living in a cage
Huh?

Anger and rage?

Well, I do have some opinions (who doesn't?), but I don't recall taking gratuitous snipes at anyone recently...

Actually, I live, not in a cage, but in a nice little house in the suburbs of Tokyo - the kitchen does get pretty hot, but that's because we had tenpura tonight .

Best,

Chris

 
Old 08-13-2002, 06:58 AM   #23
mike lee
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Cool stunned

Wow! Come down from the dizzying heights to talk to us common folk.

Have the cicada gone silent yet?

Last edited by mike lee : 08-13-2002 at 07:04 AM.
 
Old 08-13-2002, 07:55 AM   #24
DaveO
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Ah, Mike...

I may be dense here, but if you have a point to make in your last few posts, would you please make it?

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
 
Old 08-13-2002, 08:04 AM   #25
rachmass
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Mike,

I don't know if you have a personal issue with Chris, but maybe it is best to discuss anything you have with him privately, not on a website open to all to see.

It is important to keep our comments here respectful of one another and not start sniping at each other. Lets be mature and civil (me included).

 

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