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Old 07-27-2002, 02:06 AM   #1
Roger Evans
Dojo: Kioido Aikido/Aikijutsu Kai Harlow England
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Thumbs down Counter Techniques

I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido.
Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc.

Information would be greatly appreciated

Roger Evans
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Old 07-27-2002, 04:13 AM   #2
tedehara
 
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I have been taught that the ki society techniques will work if you do the technique correctly. That is a big IF.



What I've discovered is that you can counter a technique as soon as the nage loses the lead. Usually the best counter is doing the same technique. Probably because of the similar body positions between nage and uke.

A good example of this is at the end of Ikkyo Irimi. When the nage pushes you down by your arm, instead of trying to resist, take up the lead. Lead the nage down a little more than they intend. What you're trying to do is "bounce" them. The rhythm is down-up-down.

On down 1, they go a little too far down, so they will naturally come up.

On up 1, you stand up as they "bounce" up. Do an Ikkyo irimi on them.

On down 2, you bring them down in an Ikkyo. Of course you recognize the "evils" of pushing, so you gently lead your former nage, down.

These types of counters are actually very advanced. It means you know possible areas of mistakes in a technique. It also helps you learn what is the right way to do things.

It's interesting to realize that sometimes, the only difference between nage and uke is who is leading.


It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 07-27-2002, 05:54 AM   #3
DaveO
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LOL - Shihonage is the big one for me - I attempt one as nage, I wind up getting shihonage'd into the ground. Oops! Me bad.

Dave

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Old 07-27-2002, 09:50 AM   #4
SeiserL
 
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Actually, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) just finished an article for Black Belt Magazine on combinations and counters. We had not seen much published about it either.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-27-2002, 10:09 AM   #5
tedehara
 
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Quote:
Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote:
Actually, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) just finished an article for Black Belt Magazine on combinations and counters. We had not seen much published about it either.

Until again,

Lynn
I didn't have a chance to say before, "Congratulations!" on that article. Well worth the read.


It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 07-27-2002, 10:18 AM   #6
jimvance
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Over-the-Counter Techniques

Quote:
Roger Evans wrote:
I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido.

Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc.
I don't think there has been much written about kaeshi waza because that kind of practice encourages "competition". I have been taught that really understanding any kata entails knowing not only the strengths, but also the weaknesses; and a good way to identify possible kaeshi waza is through ukemi. In other words, a catalog showing "technique A is defeated by technique B" doesn't serve any more purpose than just training the kata with which you are familiar. If you really want to learn good kaeshi waza, raise the standards by which you perform as both uke and tori.

Jim Vance
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Old 07-27-2002, 03:44 PM   #7
Don_Modesto
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
Roger Evans wrote:
I have been searching for books, publications etc., on Kaishi waza (counter) techniques in Aikido.

Is there anyone out there with any knowledge of said techniques, publications etc.
Now out of print, see Saito, M.'s Traditional Aikido. It might be available through interlibrary loan.Don't recall which volume, though.

Also, Saotome has a new DVD called OYO HENKA. From http://www.aiki.com/:

Mitsugi Saotome

Oyo Henka

Aikido's Constructive Use of Resistance

Rather than pitting strength against strength, Aikidoists train to blend with their attackers energy so that they can use it to pin or throw. But what happens when attackers feel technique as it develops and resist - by pulling back, pushing, or bracing?

Here Saotome Sensei - a direct student of Aikido's founder - answers this question, describing ways to use an opponent's resisting energy. In offering his answer, Saotome Sensei urges us to go beyond practice of basic technical form to a higher level, which he calls Oyo Henka - a level at which we are so calm, relaxed, self-assured, and noncompetitive that we adapt to our partners' "feedback" and spontaneously bring conflict to a harmonious resolution.

In addition to almost an hour of lectures and demonstrations, this video contains rare historical footage.

video order code: voh

dvd order code: dvdoh

approximately 1 hour, $40.00

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 07-27-2002, 06:20 PM   #8
DavidM
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Heh, I'm with Dave...I tried a Shiho Nage on an Uke before, and I ended up on the ground from a COUNTER Shiho Nage....
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Old 07-28-2002, 02:27 AM   #9
George S. Ledyard
 
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Kaeshiwaza

We have a block which focusues on Kaeshiwaza. Here's the intro from the manual we have developed.

Kaeshiwaza - Reversals

Introduction:

At the advanced level kaeshiwaza represents the heart of Aikido practice. In order to perform effective kaeshiwaza ukemi must be close to perfect. Every technique has one or more "cross-over" points at which the technique may be taken over by the uke. In order to be able to do this in the very short window of opportunity available during full speed execution of technique the uke must be absolutely "in sync" with the nage. If the uke is performing ukemi at the passive level only, merely matching whatever movements the nage makes, the uke will be unable to "take" the technique. The uke needs to be active, attempting to feel the movement of a technique and move just ahead of it, not unlike a surfer riding on a wave. If he gets caught by the wave he loses control and gets tossed. But if he can ride just in front of the force he can have a significantly freedom of movement within the arch of the wave. Ukemi is very similar. The uke rides just in front of the energy of the technique and in the instant that the slightest opening occurs in the connection with the nage, uke can take control of that energy and reverse the roles of uke and nage.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza:

There are four basic methods to reverse a technique:

1) Over Extend the Spiral - This can take two forms, either add energy to the arch of the spiral being run by the nage on any blending or throwing movement to catch the nage in his own spiral or, on a locking technique rotate in the spiral being applied to slip the lock before it catches uke's center.

2) Counter Spiral the Energy - This runs counter energy directly through the same spiral path which the nage is using to accomplish the technique. In some cases this will cause the technique to run in the opposite direction or on others the blockage of the flow in the technique will cause a rebound of energy back into the nage causing an opening which the uke may use to do his own technique.

3) Go With the Technique and Add Additional Spiral - As a last resort, when the success of technique is inevitable, the uke may allow himself to be caught by the technique but will add an additional spiral which may catch the nage by surprise if he has left an opening. "Sacrifice throws" are an example of the use of this principle .

4) Evade and Reengage - Use the attack to draw out nage's reaction, disengage from the attempted technique and reengage in whatever opening nage created in his initial reaction.

Note: A sub-principle which actually comes into play to make the application of the above principles possible is that of moving inside the arc of nage's projection. Application of this sub-principle is what allows sacrifice throws and slipping of locking techniques.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza Demonstrated in Ikkyo:

1) Over extend the Spiral - Ikkyo into Kokyunage

As nage begins to execute the ikkyo, uke does tenkan and extends out his striking arm, cuts the arm out and down under nage's center for kokyunage.

2) Counter the Spiral - Ikkyo into Iriminage

Just as nage enters and connects with wrist and elbow, uke extends energy out striking arm, rolls palm of striking hand towards the nage thereby deflecting the attempted ikkyo and giving the uke an opening to nage's side; executes iriminage

3) Go with the Spiral and Add a Spiral - Ikkyo into Leg Scissors Takedown

Nage is able to get kuzushi and execute an ikkyo, as uke goes down he slides his legs into nage (close leg goes high up on the thighs and the far leg cuts in low on the calves, scissor the legs to make nage fall backwards)

4) Evade and Reengage - Ikkyo into Jujinage

Uke strikes w/ shomenuchi, just as nage moves for ikkyo, uke moves off the line, pulls strike back and down, uses opposite hand to trap nage's elbow hand, uses original striking hand to deliver atemi to face, when nage blocks the atemi, executes jujinage by crossing the arms and locking the close elbow

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 07-28-2002 at 02:30 AM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-28-2002, 12:08 PM   #10
Sam
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kaishi waza? I know some!

The shodokan aikido system has a kata of 10 kaishi waza. This kata forms part of the 1st kyu syllabus and is a difficult kata to practise in an accomplished fashion as a high degree of timing is required.

Since you asked for information on the technique here is a list of each technique and counter:

(atemi waza)

shomen ate-waki gatame

aigamae ate-oshi taoshi

gyakugamae ate-gedan ate

gedan ate-aigamae ate

ushiro ate-tenkai kote hineri

(hiji waza)

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi

hiki taoshi-tenkai kote hineri

(tkubi waza)

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame

tenkai kote gaeshi-tenkai kote gaeshi(shihonage).

There are also several counters to the 4 balance breaking techniques and also a range of counters developed from randori practise but is seems a bit much to list them as well........
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Old 07-28-2002, 03:54 PM   #11
j0nharris
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Quote:
Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote:
Actually, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) just finished an article for Black Belt Magazine on combinations and counters. We had not seen much published about it either.

Until again,

Lynn
Lynn,

Do you know when the publication date of that issue of Black Betl will be?

I'd be interested in seeing it.

We do some kaeshiwaza in class, generally what we've picked up at seminars. Saito Sensei's extra classes when he was here, were always "educational" (read 'painful')

-jon

jon harris

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Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 07-28-2002, 07:09 PM   #12
PeterR
 
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Re: kaishi waza? I know some!

Hi Sam;

I just got back from the Yudansha seminar in Isehara (near Yokohama) with Nariyama and Shishida. The first day concentrated almost solely on kaishi waza. We did those ten for a bit and then so so many others.

The heat and humidity was incrediable - I nearly died. The second day was not so hot but the after effects of beer made up for that.

Jim - I'm actually disturbed by the statement that I don't think there has been much written about kaeshi waza because that kind of practice encourages "competition".. Not sure if that's an oberservation as to why or your own view. Kaeshi waza is very difficult to train and requires a high level of Aikido to begin with. It moves away from the stylized attacks we all know and loath but I don't see the difference between a counter to ikkyo as opposed to a counter to shomen uchi.
Quote:
Sam Benson (Sam) wrote:
The shodokan aikido system has a kata of 10 kaishi waza. This kata forms part of the 1st kyu syllabus and is a difficult kata to practise in an accomplished fashion as a high degree of timing is required.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-28-2002, 08:23 PM   #13
jimvance
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Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Jim - I'm actually disturbed by the statement that I don't think there has been much written about kaeshi waza because that kind of practice encourages "competition".. Not sure if that's an oberservation as to why or your own view.
In my own defense, it IS my view that kaeshi waza encourages competition, of which I do my fair share (randori).
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Kaeshi waza is very difficult to train and requires a high level of Aikido to begin with. It moves away from the stylized attacks we all know and loath but I don't see the difference between a counter to ikkyo as opposed to a counter to shomen uchi.
I don't loath the attacks used in Jiyushinkai, and while it may not have sounded quite like what was said above, the following was written in the same spirit:
Quote:
Jim Vance wrote:
In other words, a catalog showing "technique A is defeated by technique B" doesn't serve any more purpose than just training the kata with which you are familiar. If you really want to learn good kaeshi waza, raise the standards by which you perform as both uke and tori.
Shodokan's kaeshi waza kata isn't anything more than linking elements of the Junana Hon Kata (Randori no Kata). We train this way quite a lot, but we still consider it part of the Junana Hon kata, not something separate.

Jim Vance
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Old 07-28-2002, 09:10 PM   #14
aries admin
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In our DOJO countering techniques are taught and need to be practiced. Its a requirement for a SHODAN test.
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Old 07-28-2002, 10:41 PM   #15
Conrad Gus
 
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That Saito Sensei book is volume 4 of the original Traditional Aikido series. My Sensei bought it back in the day and now lets club members borrow it from the dojo library, so I'm lucky enough to be reading it right now. The kaeshiwaza section is short but excellent.
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:23 AM   #16
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Jim Vance (jimvance) wrote:
In my own defense, it IS my view that kaeshi waza encourages competition, of which I do my fair share (randori).
I considser kaeshi waza an important part of advanced Aikido training. I don't want to put words in your mouth (its usually the wrong words) but are you suggesting it shouldn't be included because it might foster competition?
Quote:
I don't loath the attacks used in Jiyushinkai
I was being playful but that's the topic for another thread. Stylized attacks (which do have their place) not my playfulness (also has its place).
Quote:
Shodokan's kaeshi waza kata isn't anything more than linking elements of the Junana Hon Kata (Randori no Kata). We train this way quite a lot, but we still consider it part of the Junana Hon kata, not something separate.
Well yes and no - we actually refer to the set that Sam referred to as ura waza and yes they are from the Junanahon. They are a kata no doubt but when they, or any other reversal is used in randori, they become kaeshi waza. In randori you are no longer doing kata.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-29-2002, 04:41 AM   #17
Sam
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Hi Peter,

I have to say I'm super envious you are in Japan. How I'd love to go back.....(I'm still paying for the last trip!)

Just got 'Tradition and the competitive edge' BTW. Its really something - especially with the daito ryu section. Now I feel ready for 'questions of dan grading'!!!
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Old 07-29-2002, 08:42 PM   #18
jimvance
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Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
I considser kaeshi waza an important part of advanced Aikido training. I don't want to put words in your mouth (its usually the wrong words) but are you suggesting it shouldn't be included because it might foster competition?
I never said it shouldn't be included, I actually BELIEVE in competition (don't tell though, okay?). What I did say was that the Aikido world in majority considers the word "competition" a word similar to the four-letter variety, and anything that encourages it is strictly taboo. For the record, I have been taught not to think like the majority.
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
I was being playful but that's the topic for another thread. Stylized attacks (which do have their place) not my playfulness (also has its place).
I like to be playfully serious, if not at times seriously playful. I don't think any attack should be "stylized", and am kind of curious as to what you would consider stylized.
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Well yes and no - we actually refer to the set that Sam referred to as ura waza and yes they are from the Junanahon. They are a kata no doubt but when they, or any other reversal is used in randori, they become kaeshi waza. In randori you are no longer doing kata.
Don't take this wrong, but I could pick my nose different ways and make a "kata". If Shodokan Aikido calls these reversals the urawaza, I am not going to sweat it. I still look at them as innate to the Junana Hon. Some say tomay-to, some say tomah-to.

My question is this: if in randori, when you do waki-gatame to someone who does not get you with shomen-ate, are you doing it because you trained that way (kata), or does that response really fit to the suki in their waza? Remember, your motto is "mushin mugamae".

Playfully serious,

Jim Vance
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Old 07-29-2002, 09:44 PM   #19
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Jim Vance (jimvance) wrote:
I never said it shouldn't be included, I actually BELIEVE in competition (don't tell though, okay?). What I did say was that the Aikido world in majority considers the word "competition" a word similar to the four-letter variety, and anything that encourages it is strictly taboo. For the record, I have been taught not to think like the majority.
Again I wasn't sure whether you were referring to why more wasn't written about it or your personal view why it should not be included. Thanks for clearing it up.
Quote:
I don't think any attack should be "stylized", and am kind of curious as to what you would consider stylized.
I've travelled around a bit - seen some pretty weak attacks. Even among a certain class of beginners at Honbu (ie. timid) and even more advanced students (not everyone gets it). A good attack/strike must have potential to do damage if it connects. Even in the basic drills (where dogma has it your Aikido improves the most) this must be the case. Whether tori or uke are the reason it doesn't (ie. uke controls the strike) does not matter. Both shomen-uchi and yokomen-uchi are styllized attacks - overused in many Aikido dojos in my opinion. Because they are styllized attacks they are prone to abuse - ie. uke gets lazy.
Quote:
Don't take this wrong, but I could pick my nose different ways and make a "kata". If Shodokan Aikido calls these reversals the urawaza, I am not going to sweat it. I still look at them as innate to the Junana Hon. Some say tomay-to, some say tomah-to.
Yuck - well just keep that kata to your self. I thought it was clear that the urawaza are from the Junanahon and are kata. The point I was trying to make is that in randori they are no longer referred to as kata (urawaza) but become kaeshiwaza. Dogma is kata improves randori and randori improves kata but they really are separate. Many kaeshiwaza are not part of the Junanahon.
Quote:
My question is this: if in randori, when you do waki-gatame to someone who does not get you with shomen-ate, are you doing it because you trained that way (kata), or does that response really fit to the suki in their waza? Remember, your motto is "mushin mugamae".
Well at my level probably more of the former than the latter - but I'm working on it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-15-2004, 03:59 PM   #20
sharonbader
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Re: kaishi waza? I know some!

[quote=Sam Benson]

Since you asked for information on the technique here is a list of each technique and counter:

(atemi waza)

shomen ate-waki gatame

aigamae ate-oshi taoshi

gyakugamae ate-gedan ate

gedan ate-aigamae ate

ushiro ate-tenkai kote hineri

(hiji waza)

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi

hiki taoshi-tenkai kote hineri

(tkubi waza)

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame

tenkai kote gaeshi-tenkai kote gaeshi(shihonage).
QUOTE]

is it possible to translate these to English? I don't understand all of the romanji.

Thanks!
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Old 11-15-2004, 05:13 PM   #21
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Counter Techniques

This a piece of the Kaeshiwaza manual we use as an instructional block at my dojo. Eventually we will take this and add video clips to illustrate each of these principles.

Kaeshiwaza - Reversals
Introduction:
At the advanced level kaeshiwaza represents the heart of Aikido practice. In order to perform effective kaeshiwaza ukemi must be close to perfect. Every technique has one or more "cross-over" points at which the technique may be taken over by the uke. In order to be able to do this in the very short window of opportunity available during full speed execution of technique the uke must be absolutely "in sync" with the nage. If the uke is performing ukemi at the passive level only, merely matching whatever movements the nage makes, the uke will be unable to "take" the technique. The uke needs to be active, attempting to feel the movement of a technique and move just ahead of it, not unlike a surfer riding on a wave. If he gets caught by the wave he loses control and gets tossed. But if he can ride just in front of the force he can have a significantly freedom of movement within the arch of the wave. Ukemi is very similar. The uke rides just in front of the energy of the technique and in the instant that the slightest opening occurs in the connection with the nage, uke can take control of that energy and reverse the roles of uke and nage.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza:
There are four basic methods to reverse a technique:

1) Over Extend the Spiral
This can take two forms, either add energy to the arch of the spiral being run by the nage on any blending or throwing movement to catch the nage in his own spiral or, on a locking technique rotate in the spiral being applied to slip the lock before it catches uke's center.

2) Counter Spiral the Energy
This runs counter energy directly through the same spiral path which the nage is using to accomplish the technique. In some cases this will cause the technique to run in the opposite direction or on others the blockage of the flow in the technique will cause a rebound of energy back into the nage causing an opening which the uke may use to do his own technique.

3) Go With the Technique and Add Additional Spiral
As a last resort, when the success of technique is inevitable, the uke may allow himself to be caught by the technique but will add an additional spiral which may catch the nage by surprise if he has left an opening. "Sacrifice throws" are an example of the use of this principle .

4) Evade and Reengage
Use the attack to draw out nage's reaction, disengage from the attempted technique and reengage in whatever opening nage created in his initial reaction.

Note: A sub- principle which actually comes into play to make the application of the above principles possible is that of moving inside the arc of nage's projection. Application of this sub-principle is what allows sacrifice throws and slipping of locking techniques.

General Principles of Kaeshiwaza Demonstrated in Ikkyo:

1) Over extend the Spiral - Ikkyo into Kokyunage
As nage begins to execute the ikkyo, uke does tenkan and extends out his striking arm, cuts the arm out and down under nage's center for kokyunage.

2) Counter the Spiral - Ikkyo into Iriminage
Just as nage enters and connects with wrist and elbow, uke extends energy out striking arm, rolls palm of striking hand towards the nage thereby deflecting the attempted ikkyo and giving the uke an opening to nage's side; executes iriminage

3) Go with the Spiral and Add a Spiral - Ikkyo into Leg Scissors Takedown
Nage is able to get kuzushi and execute an ikkyo, as uke goes down he slides his legs into nage (close leg goes high up on the thighs and the far leg cuts in low on the calves, scissor the legs to make nage fall backwards)

4) Evade and Reengage - Ikkyo into Jujinage
Uke strikes w/ shomenuchi, just as nage moves for ikkyo, uke pulls strike back and down, uses opposite hand to trap nage's elbow hand, uses original striking hand to deliver atemi to face, when nage blocks the atemi, executes jujinage by crossing the arms and locking the close elbow.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:15 PM   #22
sharonbader
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Re: Counter Techniques

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
This a piece of the Kaeshiwaza manual we use as an instructional block at my dojo. Eventually we will take this and add video clips to illustrate each of these principles.
I read that, I thought is was very good and I could visualize it.

I cannot at this time visualize most of these since I do not understand the romanji:

Quote:
(atemi waza)

shomen ate-waki gatame

aigamae ate-oshi taoshi

gyakugamae ate-gedan ate

gedan ate-aigamae ate

ushiro ate-tenkai kote hineri

(hiji waza)

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi

hiki taoshi-tenkai kote hineri

(tkubi waza)

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame

tenkai kote gaeshi-tenkai kote gaeshi(shihonage).
I'll ask someone.

Thanks!
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:32 PM   #23
L. Camejo
 
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Re: kaishi waza? I know some!

Hi Sharon,

Here's the translations and some links to visual aids of the techs as well.

(atemi waza) - striking techniques

shomen ate (forward strike) - waki gatame (side pin)

aigamae ate (matching stances strike aka irimi nage) - oshi taoshi (Pushing Topple aka Ikkyo/Ikkajo)

gyakugamae ate (Opposing Stances Strike aka Sokumen) - gedan ate (Low Strike)

gedan ate-aigamae ate (translation above)

ushiro ate (Behind Strike) - tenkai kote hineri (Rotating Wrist Twist aka Sankyo/Sankajo)

(hiji waza) - elbow techniques

oshi taoshi-oshi taoshi (translation above)

hiki taoshi (Pulling Topple) - tenkai kote hineri (translation above)

(tekubi waza) - Wrist Techniques

kote gaeshi-kote gaeshi (Wrist Fold)

tenkai kote hineri-waki gatame (translation above)

tenkai kote gaeshi -tenkai kote gaeshi (Rotating Wrist Fold aka shihonage).

Hope these help. The links are to videos of the techniques indicated by the category in which they fall.

Of course there are other ways to counter the techniques indicated, what was given here is an actual set "counter technique kata" that is practiced in Shodokan and is a test requirement for 1st Kyu and the earlier Dan grades I believe.

Regards.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:28 AM   #24
sharonbader
Dojo: Vancouver West Aikikai
Location: North Vancouver
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Re: kaishi waza? I know some!

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Hi Sharon,

Here's the translations and some links to visual aids of the techs as well.
Thanks!

The videos are great! Must have been a lot of work!

Sharon.
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Old 11-16-2004, 04:27 PM   #25
Keith_k
Dojo: Kim's Hapkido
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Re: Counter Techniques

Hapkido teaches counters to techniques at 1st Dan, which should work with against many Aikido techniques. The reason for teaching counter techniques has nothing to do with competition; it is meant to deal with students, who for whatever reason, become beligerent.
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