The Psychopath Test

This thread is unrelated to anything else I've been posting lately. This is about a book I just read, called The Psychopath Test, by Jon Ronson, who also wrote The Men Who Stare at Goats.

In The Psychopath Test, Ronson learns about the real checklist of personality traits that mental health professionals use to identify sociopathic and psychopathic personalities (people).

After extensive investigation into the test, its use and the results of its use in the mental health "industry," including lengthy consultation with the creator of the "psychopath test," Ronson concludes that society is so broken because a vast number of our leaders in government and business are psychopaths, with no empathy for other people, a grandiose sense of self, superficial charm, shallow affect, manipulative behaviors, and other traits that allow them to operate only for self-gratification with no regard to the rights, feelings or even the lives of other people.

This is not a light book but it's very readable and often very funny. Ronson is a great writer and a sharp intellect. I recommend this book to anyone interested in society, politics, mental health and/or business.

Cheers.

David

Please be aware that neither psychopath or sociopath are terms found in the professional APA DSM.

But the concepts are useful.

Lynn Seiser wrote: Please be aware that neither psychopath or sociopath are terms found in the professional APA DSM. But the concepts are useful.

Yes, this book goes into the DSM pretty deeply.

Ronson shows the history and relations among several elements of modern social and mental health organization.

The development of DSM, the steady expansion of defined diseases to cover more and more human behavior once accepted as relatively normal, the emergence of new drugs to treat "new" diseases, the explosive growth of diagnoses of ADHD and childhood bipolar condition...and the dramatic increase of powerful medication of children...all are covered in this story.

It's a fascinating read. I think you'd find it really interesting.

And thanks for commenting.

David

I always laugh when they wonder why so many kids get diagnosed with ADHD nowadays. Let's see...do the people making ADHD medication turn a profit by selling it? Do the doctors diagnosing ADHD make a living by diagnosing people? Doctors wouldn't be able to afford SUV's for their teenagers or annual trips to the Bahamas if they told all their patients: "You are just fine." Something to think about.

David:

The DSM/ICDM was a catalog of professional lexicon between professions. It has devolved into a "how to get paid for services rendered" catalog. In the mental health professions, the DSM was primarily organized to discuss processes that were related to aspects of psychological functioning. It devolved into a simplistic expression of concrete behaviors that can be used to justify being paid for treatment. Since behaviors can be fueled by a myriad of circumstances, the lexicon is become less and less useful.

Psychopathic personality traits are no different from a host of other types of personality traits. In the right circumstances, those traits can help a person to adapt and thrive. There is no definitive line that is drawn that allows somebody to define a person as having a "personality disorder." It is up to the discretion of the evaluator, set within certain parameters.

Leaders typically have a strong constellation of narcissistic, sociopathic/psychopathic, obsessive-compulsive and histrionic traits. That constellation of traits help leaders function very effectively. I think that it is too simplistic to attribute world problems to today's leaders having the same leadership traits that were likely always there with leaders. We can focus certain aspects of our exploration on how those traits are being manifest at a personal and organizational level. That can give us some insights and possible directions into how to make our world a saner place. That would be a monumental task that would step on far too many toes.... I try and focus on a micro-level and help to see to it that my own little sphere that I function within functions as humanely as possible.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Interesting insight Marc. I agree that the leaders of today didn't just all of a sudden become sociopaths and psychotics. Those tendencies have always been prevalent among the powers that be. I would also go as far as to say that these "personality disorders" are more a sign of the people of our culture rather than of leadership specifically.

It's one of those deals where you can focus in really narrowly and still draw accurate conclusions, but if you step back a bit and look at the bigger picture, the same conclusions still apply.

Whenever I get a chance to teach/talk about realistic self-awareness/protection/defense, I tend to get into predator profiling.

Understanding who they are changes how we avoid/manage/fight them.

Sounds like a good read. On the list.

Not related to the psychopath test, but remarking on the ahdh diagonsis problem...

In a school system where the age cut-off is January 1, there is a much higher probability that a kid born in December will be diagnosed with ADHD than a kid born in January. Main reason is that they're all in the same school cohort, but they're a year different in maturity. A January kid is as near as damn is to swearing a year older and a year more mature than a December kid in the same class. The less mature kid has different attention span, etc. It's not significant at age 30, but it sure is at age 6. The effects of this age difference are significant later in life, but the kids are more likely than not NORMAL...
(then there's all that stuff about January cut-off dates for athletes - almost all of the players in the National Hockey League are January-March birthdates, because they're just that much stronger when they're kids, and get more advantage all the way up).
Cheers,
W

Leaders typically have a strong constellation of narcissistic, sociopathic/psychopathic, obsessive-compulsive and histrionic traits. That constellation of traits help leaders function very effectively.

Narcissistic = high levels of self esteem, self worth, self respect and eventually self love
Sociopathic/psychopathic= capable of effective functioning without concern for other peoples emotional and/or physical constraints, vital for decision making in crisis
Obsessive-compulsive= dedicated, totally committed, never give up, never quit
Histrionic= a real, deeply felt , gut wrenching response to life

Walter Martindale wrote: Not related to the psychopath test, but remarking on the ahdh diagonsis problem... In a school system where the age cut-off is January 1, there is a much higher probability that a kid born in December will be diagnosed with ADHD than a kid born in January. Main reason is that they're all in the same school cohort, but they're a year different in maturity. A January kid is as near as damn is to swearing a year older and a year more mature than a December kid in the same class. The less mature kid has different attention span, etc. It's not significant at age 30, but it sure is at age 6. The effects of this age difference are significant later in life, but the kids are more likely than not NORMAL... (then there's all that stuff about January cut-off dates for athletes - almost all of the players in the National Hockey League are January-March birthdates, because they're just that much stronger when they're kids, and get more advantage all the way up). Cheers, W

I don't understand why being younger than someone else would make you more prone to ADHD.

I do agree with the issues related to age difference. I was a bit underdeveloped for my age, and I was also a summer birthday, which meant I was the youngest among my class. Some kids got held back over the years, so I'd literally have kids in my grade 1-2 years older than me. If some of them were mature for thier age, that made the differences even more noticeable. There I was put into social interactions, and was forced to compete with these kids in sports and for girls, when I had an inherent disadvantage just based on my age and development.

Roger Flatley wrote: I don't understand why being younger than someone else would make you more prone to ADHD.

I don't think they would make you more prone to ADHD, but make teachers/doctors think you show a higher degree of ADHD traits than your peers, when in fact they are normal and appropriate for your actual age.

Franziska Costa wrote: I don't think they would make you more prone to ADHD, but make teachers/doctors think you show a higher degree of ADHD traits than your peers, when in fact they are normal and appropriate for your actual age.

I guess I don't know what criteria they look for when diagnosing ADHD. But I would think it would be something that would be looked at over the course of a few years, to see how you developed over time irrespective of your piers.

Alec Corper wrote: Narcissistic = high levels of self esteem, self worth, self respect and eventually self love Sociopathic/psychopathic= capable of effective functioning without concern for other peoples emotional and/or physical constraints, vital for decision making in crisis Obsessive-compulsive= dedicated, totally committed, never give up, never quit Histrionic= a real, deeply felt , gut wrenching response to life

Alec:

Thank you for interpreting my psychobabble into English

Roger:

If you want to talk about ADHD, why don't you start a new thread on that topic. This thread is about "The Psychopath Test", which has absolutely NOTHING to do with ADHD.

Regards,

marc abrams

Roger Flatley wrote: I guess I don't know what criteria they look for when diagnosing ADHD. But I would think it would be something that would be looked at over the course of a few years, to see how you developed over time irrespective of your piers.

I guess we all have that kind of impression of diagnoses like bipolar, ADHD, schizophrenia, etc., but The Psychopath Test pulls the covers off that image and shows that with the steady expansion of "conditions" defined in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), and the relentless development of new drugs to serve those new "conditions," doctors increasingly rely on simple checklists to determine quickly and with very little cross-checking, that a given person 1) has a condition described by the DSM and 2) is a good candidate for this new drug that a pharma company has developed specifically for that condition. And the patient goes on the drug.

I do think that schizophrenia is pretty well screened before a diagnosis, but there has been a tremendous wave of diagnoses of childhood bipolar disorder and ADHD, with a matching wave of new medications and old medications only recently tried on children. In the case of childhood bipolar disorder, it seems the drugs are very powerful.

As to the economic aspect of this, aside from whatever financial relationship the diagnosing/prescribing doctor has with the drug company (anything from gifts of ink pens and paperweights to island vacations and cash), any new diagnosis costs a specific amount of money, which goes through all the insurance and reimbursement processes and usually winds up sucking some Federal monies out of some tube somewhere. And the patient then actually goes and buys the drug, which also goes through insurance and reimbursement and likely sucks money from tax sources...all to the obese profit of the drug companies.

So now I think I understand much better why the cost of American health care is so high. The system for all health care, from runny noses to cancer, is not designed to meet the health needs of the American people but to create a marketing network for drug companies. Not to put down cancer research, but it and most other aspects of our health care has long since been co-opted. There is no other mainstream approach to cancer treatment other than drugs and radiation. Since the DSM is used around the world, the drug companies also extend their reach into the economies of almost every nation on the earth.

ADHD may be evaluated over a few years and the diagnosis may be removed for some, but I think they tend to keep a kid on pharmaceuticals once he "responds well" to them. I, of course, am not a professional in the field, but I get that impression from general reading.

Short comment... I worked for years at an Industrial Psych research firm that developed all sorts of tests. I remember the laugh I got from reading about some study where the study authors used the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) to evaluate a bunch of high level, talented computer programmers. You know, nerds. I don't remember the scores and each of the scales, but from memory scores on the factors like social introversion, paranoia and schizophrenia (I think) were "out there". I just remember laughing and thinking "well, yeah...." Here I am late at night reading this article in my office while some statistical routine I'd just written was compiling. All by myself, compulsively finishing this abstract, highly detailed task much on a Friday Night. Rather than out on a date. Rather than out with friends.

Hmmm... I think I turned out okay...

Like the introverted problem solver is attracted to the solitary puzzle solving aspect of programming, an extroverted, focused individual might find themselves attracted to jobs or tasks that involve public speaking, interaction and activities. All those things that make for a great leader (and I mean truly great in all senses) could be perverted in any number of ways to make for a tyrant.

It ain't what ya got, it's how ya use it?

I'm also reminded of George Carlin talking about driving. I don't recall the exact quote, but his observations was that those people going slower than him are freaking idiots, while those going faster are insane.

Keith Larman wrote: Short comment... I worked for years at an Industrial Psych research firm that developed all sorts of tests. I remember the laugh I got from reading about some study where the study authors used the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) to evaluate a bunch of high level, talented computer programmers. You know, nerds. I don't remember the scores and each of the scales, but from memory scores on the factors like social introversion, paranoia and schizophrenia (I think) were "out there". I just remember laughing and thinking "well, yeah...." Here I am late at night reading this article in my office while some statistical routine I'd just written was compiling. All by myself, compulsively finishing this abstract, highly detailed task much on a Friday Night. Rather than out on a date. Rather than out with friends. Hmmm... I think I turned out okay... Like the introverted problem solver is attracted to the solitary puzzle solving aspect of programming, an extroverted, focused individual might find themselves attracted to jobs or tasks that involve public speaking, interaction and activities. All those things that make for a great leader (and I mean truly great in all senses) could be perverted in any number of ways to make for a tyrant. It ain't what ya got, it's how ya use it? I'm also reminded of George Carlin talking about driving. I don't recall the exact quote, but his observations was that those people going slower than him are freaking idiots, while those going faster are insane.

Psychological testing is akin to blood tests. If you do not know how to interpret the findings, then you end up making all kinds of "interesting" conclusions. The really scary part is that there are VERY FEW Ph.D. programs in Clinical Psychology in the US that really teach psychological testing at the depth that is required to really know what you are doing.

Hope all is well in the left coast!

Marc Abrams

Marc Abrams wrote: If you want to talk about ADHD, why don't you start a new thread on that topic. This thread is about "The Psychopath Test", which has absolutely NOTHING to do with ADHD.

I appreciate everyone's comments, especially those with real backgrounds in the field, like Lynn and Marc, who both have very interesting insight and experience. And it sounds like maybe Alec and some other commenters may be in that field. I appreciate all these insights.

Marc, the book, The Psychopath Test really describes the whole global mental health approach to diagnosing all kinds of mental illnesses and conditions, with a lot of attention to ADHD and bipolar disorder in children. It begins with a strange "practical joke" or "puzzle challenge" which is distributed anonymously to a number of scientists around the world. One of these people calls Jon Ronson in because of his earlier investigative reportage to try to determine who sent the packages. Ronson discovers that a psychhiatrist created the puzzle or whatever it is supposed to be and the consensus is that this person is a bit disturbed.

In the course of the search, Ronson goes deeply into the entire mental health system and questions what it really means to be human. He puts a lot of attention on the DSM and how it has grown from 130 pages and 106 mental disorders in 1952 to 886 pages listing 297 disorders in 1994.

Ronson makes a good case that many normal people are increasingly defined not by the overwhelming normality of their lives but by the borders of their personality, which may bump into high anxiety or narcissism or whatever. We are defined (and often medicated or incarcerated) on the basis of the edges of our personalities.

The idea that psychopaths run our government and economy emerges as a central question of the book, but the big picture is how global psychiatric medication (and often incarceration) is moderated by checklists with little corroboration.

So the book does involve ADHD and other issues.

I'm interested both in the overall system and in the question of whether we are governed and economically controlled by psychopaths.

Cheers.

David

David Orange wrote: I appreciate everyone's comments, especially those with real backgrounds in the field, like Lynn and Marc, who both have very interesting insight and experience. And it sounds like maybe Alec and some other commenters may be in that field. I appreciate all these insights. Marc, the book, The Psychopath Test really describes the whole global mental health approach to diagnosing all kinds of mental illnesses and conditions, with a lot of attention to ADHD and bipolar disorder in children. It begins with a strange "practical joke" or "puzzle challenge" which is distributed anonymously to a number of scientists around the world. One of these people calls Jon Ronson in because of his earlier investigative reportage to try to determine who sent the packages. Ronson discovers that a psychhiatrist created the puzzle or whatever it is supposed to be and the consensus is that this person is a bit disturbed. In the course of the search, Ronson goes deeply into the entire mental health system and questions what it really means to be human. He puts a lot of attention on the DSM and how it has grown from 130 pages and 106 mental disorders in 1952 to 886 pages listing 297 disorders in 1994. Ronson makes a good case that many normal people are increasingly defined not by the overwhelming normality of their lives but by the borders of their personality, which may bump into high anxiety or narcissism or whatever. We are defined (and often medicated or incarcerated) on the basis of the edges of our personalities. The idea that psychopaths run our government and economy emerges as a central question of the book, but the big picture is how global psychiatric medication (and often incarceration) is moderated by checklists with little corroboration. So the book does involve ADHD and other issues. I'm interested both in the overall system and in the question of whether we are governed and economically controlled by psychopaths. Cheers. David

David:

Lynn is correct in that the diagnosis of psychopath changed to sociopath and was eliminated from the DSM category. There is now the Antisocial Personality Disorder. The difference is related to the change that I mentioned from an emphasis on looking at psychological processes to looking at concrete behaviors and other overt signs/symptoms. The same processes that Alec talked about could be used in a pro-social format, can also be used in an anti-social format. Only the anti-social format is subject to reimbursement. Leaders have the personality qualities that I listed above. We want those qualities in our leaders. The larger issue is how and in what direction do these personality characteristics manifest into thoughts, emotions and behaviors. The narcissistic, short-term gratification contained within greed, power and money go far beyond simple personality characteristics.

The change in way in which we look at psychopathology has a profound influence on diagnoses. The whole bipolar disorder in children through adolescents was largely a criminal enterprise funded by certain Pharm. companies and fronted by some well-paid off child psychiatrists. The incidence of REAL bipolar disorder in children through adolescents is very, very low. By changing the criteria to focusing exclusively on overt emotional patterns, thoughts and behaviors, it is easy to shape a diagnosis, which leads to drugs, which leads to $$$$ for some. The same pattern is common for ADHD as well. However, trying to talk about personality development and characteristics should really be kept apart from other types of psychopathology for a whole host of reasons. That is why I suggested that a separate thread would be more appropriate for discussing ADHD.

The book is on target when it looks at the changes in the DSM and its implications on diagnosing and treating "psychological/psychiatric disorders." Once upon a time, there was a catalog to help professionals convey information using a common lexicon. Then the forces of $$$$$ (Pharms., hospitals, and insurance companies) recognized that if you control the language, you control the $$$$.........

Marc Abrams

Roger Flatley wrote: I don't understand why being younger than someone else would make you more prone to ADHD. I do agree with the issues related to age difference. I was a bit underdeveloped for my age, and I was also a summer birthday, which meant I was the youngest among my class. Some kids got held back over the years, so I'd literally have kids in my grade 1-2 years older than me. If some of them were mature for thier age, that made the differences even more noticeable. There I was put into social interactions, and was forced to compete with these kids in sports and for girls, when I had an inherent disadvantage just based on my age and development.

Being younger than someone in your same school year doesn't make you more prone to HAVING (should that be "BEING"?) ADHD, but it appears to make you more prone to A DIAGNOSIS of ADHD. Two "grade 3" kids in the same class, one born in January, one born in December. It's September, and the 8-year-old grade 3 kid born in January is paying attention to whatever the teacher is blathering on about, while the 7-year-old grade three kid born in December couldn't give a monkey's about what the teacher is saying but is fascinated by - oh, say, the beetle crawling across the ceiling. The young guy gets sent off to some plonker who doesn't pay attention to the different maturity level who says "a grade 3 should behave this way" and labels the kid ADHD, prescribes a bunch of drugs, when really, the only problem is that the younger guy's brain isn't yet developed as much as the older kid, but they're tossed into the same educational melting pot and expected to fit in the same shelf as everyone else born in the same year. (sorry, run-on sentence)

No, I'm not in trained in the field - there was a discussion of this stuff on CBC radio the other day, and I see this sort of stuff dealing with young athletes..

Walter Martindale wrote: Being younger than someone in your same school year doesn't make you more prone to HAVING (should that be "BEING"?) ADHD, but it appears to make you more prone to A DIAGNOSIS of ADHD. Two "grade 3" kids in the same class, one born in January, one born in December. It's September, and the 8-year-old grade 3 kid born in January is paying attention to whatever the teacher is blathering on about, while the 7-year-old grade three kid born in December couldn't give a monkey's about what the teacher is saying but is fascinated by - oh, say, the beetle crawling across the ceiling. The young guy gets sent off to some plonker who doesn't pay attention to the different maturity level who says "a grade 3 should behave this way" and labels the kid ADHD, prescribes a bunch of drugs, when really, the only problem is that the younger guy's brain isn't yet developed as much as the older kid, but they're tossed into the same educational melting pot and expected to fit in the same shelf as everyone else born in the same year. (sorry, run-on sentence) No, I'm not in trained in the field - there was a discussion of this stuff on CBC radio the other day, and I see this sort of stuff dealing with young athletes..

I'd almost be inclined to think that disruptive behavior, or failing to keep up with the majority of the class would be criteria they look at. For instance, if the kid is doing something wrong, whatever it is, they'll try to link it to hyperactive disorder, ADHD, ADD, bipolar, or some other category they can pigeonhole the kid into then medicate him accordingly. Maybe the diagnosis fits and maybe it doesn't Maybe the meds work, or maybe they don't. A lot of these "diseased kids" and thier associated behaviors are things I'd attribute to normal childhood behaviors. But there's no doubt that some kids out there do have legit issues and need treatment.

Walter Martindale wrote: Being younger than someone in your same school year doesn't make you more prone to HAVING (should that be "BEING"?) ADHD, but it appears to make you more prone to A DIAGNOSIS of ADHD. Two "grade 3" kids in the same class, one born in January, one born in December. It's September, and the 8-year-old grade 3 kid born in January is paying attention to whatever the teacher is blathering on about, while the 7-year-old grade three kid born in December couldn't give a monkey's about what the teacher is saying but is fascinated by - oh, say, the beetle crawling across the ceiling. The young guy gets sent off to some plonker who doesn't pay attention to the different maturity level who says "a grade 3 should behave this way" and labels the kid ADHD, prescribes a bunch of drugs, when really, the only problem is that the younger guy's brain isn't yet developed as much as the older kid, but they're tossed into the same educational melting pot and expected to fit in the same shelf as everyone else born in the same year. (sorry, run-on sentence) No, I'm not in trained in the field - there was a discussion of this stuff on CBC radio the other day, and I see this sort of stuff dealing with young athletes..

Walter:

You are absolutely correct! I cannot tell you the number of times that parents have called saying that I need to diagnose their child with ADHD so the child can be put on meds.... Now the pediatricians do that ! The first mode of communication in humans is sensory-motor. Now, when a young child is upset, anxious, etc., what can we expect.... Oh Boy! Behaviors that fit in the ADHD checklist... Go figure. Much easier to drug a child than to figure out what is really going on....

Marc Abrams

I know, I mean, you feed the kid nothing but Mountain Dews and Little Debbies and park him front of his Xbox for hours on end, so you'd think he'd settle down and get out of your hair while you Facebook all evening. Yet here he is running around trying to get your attention expecting you to be a parent. Just drug him for pete's sake and be done with it!

Roger Flatley wrote: I always laugh when they wonder why so many kids get diagnosed with ADHD nowadays. Let's see...do the people making ADHD medication turn a profit by selling it? Do the doctors diagnosing ADHD make a living by diagnosing people? Doctors wouldn't be able to afford SUV's for their teenagers or annual trips to the Bahamas if they told all their patients: "You are just fine." Something to think about.

Hi Roger,

All I have to say on what you wrote is, I have to totally agree with your rather blunt assessment. But it is a truthful one, and I respect that.

In Budo

Andy B

Lynn Seiser wrote: Sounds like a good read. On the list.

You might take a look at the 162 reviews of the book on Amazon before you buy it.

I'm pretty sure I'm ADD and I function just fine. Albeit I have developed coping mechanisms over the years. ask me how many pairs of Oakley sunglasses I have gone through this year.